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Old 27th January 2021, 12:37 PM   #41
lobosrul5
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It also proposes a problem that isn't immediately easy to remedy.

This is absolutely market manipulation. These people are deliberately pumping up this stock as part of a stunt or get rich scheme.

But there's no leader or group of conspirators. It's thousands of individual investors, many making small purchases. It's the financial equivalent of a DDOS strike, no one person is really playing a large role.

I think it absolutely exposes weaknesses in our stock market system, though the wallstreet bet memers are the problem. The problem is that our institutions are able to make such absurdly risky, overleveraged positions to begin with.

The number of short sales exceeds the total available stock for Gamestop. It's all make believe. Speculative nonsense that, until now, only served to enrich the elite few.
Market manipulation is only illegal (in the USA anyways), given some pretty narrow circumstances. If you pay attention this is the same thing hedge funds have been doing for a long time. Take a short position, say how terrible the company is, profit. These guys aren't even same GME is good, just hey everybody by it!! They haven't made any fraudulent statements.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:38 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You think someone has to be in "the 1%" to have hundreds or thousands of dollars?
You think someone on the poverty line has thousands of dollars to play the market with?
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:41 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Market manipulation is only illegal (in the USA anyways), given some pretty narrow circumstances. If you pay attention this is the same thing hedge funds have been doing for a long time. Take a short position, say how terrible the company is, profit. These guys aren't even same GME is good, just hey everybody by it!! They haven't made any fraudulent statements.
Oof, i edited my post. I meant to say WSB buyer are not the problem.

They are simply exploiting the gaping vulnerabilities that exist in our under-regulated financial sector. The solution to these financial trolls is the same solution to ever other wall street disaster, more regulation and the ending of needlessly risky investments.

But since it's rich people getting scammed this time, we might actually see some legal response. If there's on thing the SEC doesn't like, it's rich people getting played like fools.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:41 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You think someone on the poverty line has thousands of dollars to play the market with?
Did I say they did? There's a very large gap between "poverty line" and "the 1%". And most of us are in that gap, as are the majority of these investors we're talking about.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Did I say they did? There's a very large gap between "poverty line" and "the 1%". And most of us are in that gap, as are the majority of these investors we're talking about.
You said $20K a year. That is certainly on the poverty line charts.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:47 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You said $20K a year. That is certainly on the poverty line charts.
That. Was. The. Point. Re-read that post. I was illustrating how one could skew the statistics by including extreme (and inapplicable) edge cases into a data set in order to produce mathematically-accurate but functionally nonsensical results; specifically, you can game the math so you could define "the 1%" to include actually quite poor people.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:47 PM   #47
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Bankrupt Blockbuster Joins Reddit-Inspired Retail Rally

Quote:
(Bloomberg) -- The latest nostalgia stock to jump on the Reddit rally is BB Liquidating Inc., the final remnant of bankrupt video-rental company Blockbuster.

The penny stock surged as much as 302% Wednesday, adding to Tuesday’s 774% spike, on volume that was 70 times the three-month average, showing that even the most retrograde of old-technology stocks isn’t immune to the ebullience of retail investors and day traders.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bankr...134805213.html
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:50 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Oof, i edited my post. I meant to say WSB buyer are not the problem.

They are simply exploiting the gaping vulnerabilities that exist in our under-regulated financial sector. The solution to these financial trolls is the same solution to ever other wall street disaster, more regulation and the ending of needlessly risky investments.

But since it's rich people getting scammed this time, we might actually see some legal response. If there's on thing the SEC doesn't like, it's rich people getting played like fools.
Why is this exploitation? People buy stock, stock goes up.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Bankrupt Blockbuster Joins Reddit-Inspired Retail Rally



https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bankr...134805213.html
Heh. Is everyone brainstorming which one might be next, to try to cash in on it? I'm glad all my investing is done through slow-ass means that take days to execute a trade, otherwise it might be tempting to try to anticipate this. Which would be folly. I'll stay boring and safe. Excitement and risk is for sex, not personal finance.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:54 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Market manipulation is only illegal (in the USA anyways), given some pretty narrow circumstances. If you pay attention this is the same thing hedge funds have been doing for a long time. Take a short position, say how terrible the company is, profit. These guys aren't even same GME is good, just hey everybody by it!! They haven't made any fraudulent statements.
Shorting and distorting is illegal.

It might be difficult to prosecute a distributed pump and dump scheme (I'm skeptical that nobody involved said anything beyond "Hey, buy this!"), but it shouldn't be all that difficult to regulate it away.
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Old 27th January 2021, 12:59 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Shorting and distorting is illegal.

It might be difficult to prosecute a distributed pump and dump scheme (I'm skeptical that nobody involved said anything beyond "Hey, buy this!"), but it shouldn't be all that difficult to regulate it away.
Its only illegal if it can be proved that the shorter made a false claim. I remember seeing a statement just a few months ago from a hedge fund saying how awful Nikola is (an electric car company that GM was interested in).

Its absolutely not illegal for anyone to say "HEY BUY THIS STOCK CAUSE I WANT TO MAKE MONEY!". Thats 100% 1st amendment protected speech. Making false claims is, like hey buy GME because they made a profit of $100 million last quarter, you'll see when their official numbers come out. That would be fraudulent.

In fact I get financial blogs like in my Google feed all the time from bloggers trying to convince their readers how great a stock is, they do disclose that they have a position. Same thing as the degens on Reddit are doing, just not viral.

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Old 27th January 2021, 01:08 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Did I say they did? There's a very large gap between "poverty line" and "the 1%". And most of us are in that gap, as are the majority of these investors we're talking about.
Ah... No. I think you're wrong that "most of us" have thousands of dollars of disposable income to spend as a joke.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:10 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Ah... No. I think you're wrong that "most of us" have thousands of dollars of disposable income to spend as a joke.
I meant most of us are between the poverty line and the 1%, not that most of us in that gap would have such money to invest. But many would. One does not need to be in "the 1%" (again, that's >$400,000 a year in income) to have hundreds or even thousands of dollars to invest.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You think someone has to be in "the 1%" to have hundreds or thousands of dollars?
To waste, burn or at least significantly risk it? Yes.

Whole thing still stinks to me.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:23 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Its only illegal if it can be proved that the shorter made a false claim.
Well, yes. It's pretty hard to prove any kind of securities fraud without that. I mean, Nikola genuinely is a terrible company which itself deceived investors and was overvalued as a result. There's no reason to suspect fraud simply because someone tells you why they're shorting a stock.

Quote:
Its absolutely not illegal for anyone to say "HEY BUY THIS STOCK CAUSE I WANT TO MAKE MONEY!". Thats 100% 1st amendment protected speech. Making false claims is, like hey buy GME because they made a profit of $100 million last quarter, you'll see when their official numbers come out. That would be fraudulent.
If nobody said anything beyond that (either on reddit or in back channels), sure, there's no fraud. Like I said, I'm skeptical that the brain geniuses in r/wallstreetbets are all that disciplined.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:28 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Oh I highly doubt that. Is there actual evidence to show this effect is largely the result of several thousands of individuals suddenly buying one share each at $20 causing the price to skyrocket, as opposed to a few dozen people buying hundreds or thousands of dollars of stock at a time, which is how market trading usually works?
I first learned about it from my kid, who follows Wall Street Bets.

He bought 5 shares.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:30 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Ah... No. I think you're wrong that "most of us" have thousands of dollars of disposable income to spend as a joke.
I've never made more than 2.5 times the local minimum wage (which is higher than Federal). And I have about $150,000 to invest. Most of it in retirement accounts. I certainly considered putting a few thousand into GME. Oh well.

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Old 27th January 2021, 01:32 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
If nobody said anything beyond that (either on reddit or in back channels), sure, there's no fraud. Like I said, I'm skeptical that the brain geniuses in r/wallstreetbets are all that disciplined.
I've never seen anyone on r/wallstreebets claim that GME is a good investment. Admittedly I'm only scanning some of the top voted posts.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:32 PM   #59
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*Raises hand* Where is this going? What does the financial demographic of anyone involved here have to do with anything?
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:33 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
To waste, burn or at least significantly risk it? Yes.

Whole thing still stinks to me.
Jesus Christ, do you people not know numbers? Do you really, truly believe that someone making $200,000 a year couldn't afford to spend a thousand bucks on a stock? Sixty percent of Americans invest in something, even if it's only via retirement funds. They are NOT "the 1%".

This insistence that everyone in America (I'll remind you, it's a superpower, the "first" of the term "first world nations") is either in grinding poverty OR else they're "the 1%" making more than $400,000 a year, and that no incomes exist between $20K and $400K (there's just a big jump in pay when you get that one promotion!) is weird.

The evidence against it is right in the ******* news the OP is about: the people driving the Gamestop stock are the internet masses, not "the 1%".
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:34 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Raises hand* Where is this going? What does the financial demographic of anyone involved here have to do with anything?
Somebody claimed that only the 1% could be investing in this. They are very, very wrong. But since then they've been joined by more people who do not believe in the existence of a middle class.
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:49 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Jesus Christ, do you people not know numbers? Do you really, truly believe that someone making $200,000 a year couldn't afford to spend a thousand bucks on a stock? Sixty percent of Americans invest in something, even if it's only via retirement funds. They are NOT "the 1%".
Right. So, what, 3% then? Someone pulling $200k a year isn't some outsider bucking the system.

And none of this by the way has rebutted the fact that Gamestop IS a national corporation owned by 1%ers, so I'm still left wondering why I'm supposed to thinking of the hedge-funders making money from their inevitable decline as "bad guys".
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Old 27th January 2021, 01:56 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Right. So, what, 3% then? Someone pulling $200k a year isn't some outsider bucking the system.

And none of this by the way has rebutted the fact that Gamestop IS a national corporation owned by 1%ers, so I'm still left wondering why I'm supposed to thinking of the hedge-funders making money from their inevitable decline as "bad guys".
Gamestop is a corporation owned by its stockholders. Who are now, as is the point of this thread, not the 1%.

Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 12.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:02 PM   #64
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This reminds me of when Enron was going down in flames and a friend bought $1000 of their stock. His thought was that as a single guy making around $100k a year it wouldn't kill him if he lost it, but if it somehow recovered to anything close to its old value he would never have to work again. He is still working.

I don't think it is uncommon for investors t set up a large percentage of their investments to be safe and then reserve a small percentage to to go in on long shots or riskier investments. It adds some excitement to the process without risking anything of real substance.

But this seems more like an act of activism rather than investment. There is a very good chance that current buyers know they won't get their money back out, but they are buying stock or options just to screw the shorts. I know many people put $500 or more into political campaigns last year and I can see that sort of person putting a similarly amount into this as a way to voice their dissatisfaction with the powers that be.

It is more of a form of speech than a form of investment at this point.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:04 PM   #65
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Also Reddit is (largely) anonymous. For all we know some one or two members of... brokerage firm that is shorting the stock are on the subreddit and the rest are just playing along.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:13 PM   #66
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My son is not a 1%er. He bought 10 shares on Monday at around $89/share with savings he had to build a computer. He makes $14/hr, lives at home.

My wife is not a 1%er, she bought 10 shares on a lark at the same time my son did.

Read the Reddit threads, there are scores of people who are dumping savings, retirement accounts, etc. I don’t think a lot of them are doing the right thing at all, don’t get me wrong. But this rally is largely driven by people firmly in the 99%. I’d even wager by people in the bottom 50% or lower.

I think people are largely doing this as a middle finger at the 1% -as an attempt to profit off their folly for once.

I think if you have some money you don’t need to live on and you wanna gamble, go for it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with seeing an opportunity and jumping on it. GME is over-shorted. Just be prepared to take profit at a moment’s notice or jump out before you lose it all. I told my wife and son they should have sold today when it hit around $350 but they want to ride it out a little more. Roll them bones!
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:15 PM   #67
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I think the question of who are the good or bad guys in this particular instance is a distant second to how clear this makes it that the system our retirement savings ride on is a wacky game with very little relationship to the economy that so many politicians seem to think it tracks.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not every thread that exists does so for the purpose of bringing up a group of people and their actions to submit to your judgment.
You are right; not every thread was made for the purpose of eliciting a judgment from readers.

But, this thread was. There's a whole bunch of people offering judgments in this thread that you don't seem to have a problem with. They are mostly positive judgments and that's okay apparently.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:18 PM   #69
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Oh, dear. It's one thing if they can really afford to lose it, but I worry about people jumping into a known bubble using their savings and retirement accounts. This sort of thing is for "I just got a pandemic check I don't really need" not "perhaps if we gamble our savings we can afford Tiny Tim's surgery after all". There's gambling, then there's gambling.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:20 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
You are right; not every thread was made for the purpose of eliciting a judgment from readers.

But, this thread was. There's a whole bunch of people offering judgments in this thread that you don't seem to have a problem with. They are mostly positive judgments and that's okay apparently.
Okey-dokey, whatever. Anyone with money is evil, got it. If Joe Sixpack wins once against C. Montgomery Burns it's awful because they both equally deserve ruin for the sin of having had any amount of money.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:24 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think the question of who are the good or bad guys in this particular instance is a distant second to how clear this makes it that the system our retirement savings ride on is a wacky game with very little relationship to the economy that so many politicians seem to think it tracks.
Thinking about it, this is the culmination of the end of the stock market having anything to do with the fundamentals of the underlying investment, ie things like earnings per share, cash on hand, etc. Its all just investor sentiment. Add that hardly anyone in the USA outside of some government workers having a pension, but rather a self-directed 401k, and it is, yes, a recipe for disaster.

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Old 27th January 2021, 02:33 PM   #72
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My son bought 1 share a day or two ago. I told him GameStop is a worthless stock. He is up about 200%. Says he will sell tomorrow or the next day.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:33 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Okey-dokey, whatever. Anyone with money is evil, got it.
If you say so?
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:36 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, dear. It's one thing if they can really afford to lose it, but I worry about people jumping into a known bubble using their savings and retirement accounts. This sort of thing is for "I just got a pandemic check I don't really need" not "perhaps if we gamble our savings we can afford Tiny Tim's surgery after all". There's gambling, then there's gambling.
Tiny Tim doesn’t need surgery. Let him eat turkey.
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Old 27th January 2021, 02:39 PM   #75
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From the OP linked article:

"It’s not clear how the story ends. Some professional analysts think the stock is due for a crash. Citron Research managing partner Andrew Left has argued the stock will fall to $20 per share. He tried to explain his reasoning in a livestream last week but couldn’t because his Twitter account got locked after too many people tried to guess his password. He posted the video on YouTube and said GameStop backers were sending pizzas to his house and signing him up for dating profiles. Left decided to stop bashing GameStop, citing harassment by the “angry mob."

Vaguely unsettling intersection of the Economy and Cancel Culture??
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:00 PM   #76
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Honestly how could the stock not crash eventually? GameStop is failing because it's business model is no longer sustainable. This pump-and-dump scheme doesn't change that; as soon as speculators stop buying, the price will begin to fall almost immediately. And when that happens, all of the jokesters are going to have to sell if they don't want to lose money. And that sell-off is going to crash the stock.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
From the OP linked article:

"It’s not clear how the story ends. Some professional analysts think the stock is due for a crash. Citron Research managing partner Andrew Left has argued the stock will fall to $20 per share. He tried to explain his reasoning in a livestream last week but couldn’t because his Twitter account got locked after too many people tried to guess his password. He posted the video on YouTube and said GameStop backers were sending pizzas to his house and signing him up for dating profiles. Left decided to stop bashing GameStop, citing harassment by the “angry mob."

Vaguely unsettling intersection of the Economy and Cancel Culture??
Is Andrew Left the guy whose firm took a huge short position and then went on to release his analysis of why it would be dropping?

The name sounds familiar, like maybe he has done this to other firms, like Tesla. Is that why Elon has tweeted about this?

Man, what a weird way to become notorious. I'm not sure what is unsettling about it so long as no one is actually being hurt. Some people are prepared for a public platform and some just think they are.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:08 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Honestly how could the stock not crash eventually? GameStop is failing because it's business model is no longer sustainable. This pump-and-dump scheme doesn't change that; as soon as speculators stop buying, the price will begin to fall almost immediately. And when that happens, all of the jokesters are going to have to sell if they don't want to lose money. And that sell-off is going to crash the stock.
If you can clarify some of the timing on this prediction we can translate that into an investment position and get you in on the action.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:50 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I thought the way a short worked was the shorter pays a fee monthly to the lender. Then when the shorter chooses, they buy the stock, return it to the lender, and stop paying the fee.

What is incorrect there? If not incorrect, why would Melvin have to sell? Could they just pay their fee and let it take longer?
Shorting a stock is both borrowing the stock AND selling it. So you have to buy it back to close and return the borrowed stock.

When you short a stock you have to have extra reserves beyond the cost to buy the stock back. The amount of reserves required is set and subject to change at any time. Should the price of the shorted stock rise such that you no longer have sufficient reserves you get a "margin call" at which point you must either add more money to your reserves or your position will be closed and your reserves used to buy the stock. Very rarely a stock will rise so quickly that closing your position will leave you with a negative balance since you won't have sufficient reserves. But this is rare. When it happens you have to pay the negative balance.
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Last edited by marting; 27th January 2021 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 27th January 2021, 03:52 PM   #80
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Wall Street Bets subreddit leading charge to bankrupt shortseller of Gamestop stock.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Honestly how could the stock not crash eventually? GameStop is failing because it's business model is no longer sustainable. This pump-and-dump scheme doesn't change that; as soon as speculators stop buying, the price will begin to fall almost immediately. And when that happens, all of the jokesters are going to have to sell if they don't want to lose money. And that sell-off is going to crash the stock.

Of course it will crash eventually. The sell-off is going to be brutal for a lot of the late-comers who bought in at the highs. There’s no question about that.

The real question is how long can the average retail investor hold on with all their money on this one stock hoping for a moon shot? Can they hold out long enough to really put the real squeeze on all the shorts? I don’t think so. The Big Boys in all this have the resources to out-wait them. Once the Little Guys start panicking, that’s when the real short-sell opportunities will arise and the Big Boys who are still standing will end up making a killing. If this thing gets to $500...$1000? It won’t be long before the evil temptation to take profit overcomes the Little Guys, principles be damned, and the Big Boys will clean up.

If I had the money, I might think about shorting GME soon...
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