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Old 12th February 2018, 04:22 PM   #41
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Actually it is even somewhat more complicated than that. Additional loci contribute, some alterations that make for lighter skin in Europeans are also found in Africa, and some gene variants that arose in Eurasia migrated back into Africa.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/...man-skin-color

An origin of all modern humans in Africa some 300,000+ years ago, and their migrations within Africa, rather than within middle east, seem pretty strongly supported by the and by the bulk of other studies.
Ann Gibbons writes a lot of interesting articles.

Quote:
The first surprise was that SLC24A5, which swept Europe, is also common in East Africa—found in as many as half the members of some Ethiopian groups. This variant arose 30,000 years ago and was probably brought to eastern Africa by people migrating from the Middle East, Tishkoff says. But though many East Africans have this gene, they don’t have white skin, probably because it is just one of several genes that shape their skin color.
Well, we know some people having migrated from Africa, returned some generations later as evidenced in the L6 haplotype, also seen in the middle east, which is ipso facto a more modern one (hence the theory).

Race, or should we say, 'tribe' is more than just skin and eye colour there are a hundred and one other factors people differentiate between one tribe and another. It is to do with phenotypes. A group of people living insularly in one part of the world is bound to look different from one across the globe.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:24 PM   #42
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I'm not so sure about that artist's rendering. Looks good for 100,000 years ago, but 6-10,000 isn't enough generations to lose the African features she gave him.

I was expecting something more like modern Czechs or Slavs.

Everybody seems to fixating on ONE gene. Yet just a couple years ago when the English Black couple had a glow-in-the-dark white skinned baby, the word was 7 genes involved.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:26 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Mikemcc View Post
A question then; If diet provoked reactions resulting in fair skin, does a modern. healthy diet lead to a relaxation in that requirement? Are our ancestors likely to revert to darker skin tones because there is a reduced drive to produce natural vitamin D?
As I understand it, the Bronze Age brought with it medittaranean weather to places like Denmark. They basked in the sun. It was a lot warmer than it is now.

I think the vitamin D issue is a red herring. In those days, the hunter-gatherers spent so much time outdoors hunting and foraging all day, their skin was probably tanned and leathery.
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Old 12th February 2018, 04:40 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I'm not so sure about that artist's rendering. Looks good for 100,000 years ago, but 6-10,000 isn't enough generations to lose the African features she gave him.

I was expecting something more like modern Czechs or Slavs.

Everybody seems to fixating on ONE gene. Yet just a couple years ago when the English Black couple had a glow-in-the-dark white skinned baby, the word was 7 genes involved.
I don't think modern Brits have a Slavic link. They are a mixture of Britons and sundry north Germanic tribes, hence the English language with its roots in low German.

What's fascinating is Cheddar Man's killer combination of dark skin and blue eyes. Blue eyes are supposed to have evolved only ten thousand years ago. So what is the story here?
Attached Images
File Type: jpeg cheddar man.jpeg (83.6 KB, 3 views)
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Old 12th February 2018, 06:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think modern Brits have a Slavic link. They are a mixture of Britons and sundry north Germanic tribes, hence the English language with its roots in low German.

What's fascinating is Cheddar Man's killer combination of dark skin and blue eyes. Blue eyes are supposed to have evolved only ten thousand years ago. So what is the story here?
Well, Proto-Indo-Europeans (who first migrated into Europe about 4500 years ago) did originate from the Eurasian steppe (Ukraine, Russia, Uzbekistan...), having most likely domesticated the horse and adapted it for cavalry (think of them as the Mongols or Huns of the day). Britons and Germanics both belong to the Celtic-Latin-Germanic supergroup. Other groups are Balto-Slavs, Greeks, Albanians, Armenians and Aryans, as well as many extinct ones. It's hard to say what people looked like before that since we don't know how they replaced the indigenous population. The most popular theory is elite substitution, meaning they forcibly ousted the existing nobility, since that's what appears to have happened in Iran and India (though this remains contentious). While we know that in the latter cases they interbred with pre-existing populations (Elamites, Dravids etc) we don't actually know of any non-IE populations in Europe except Basques other than from archaeology. They could in principle have been dark-skinned and largely killed off by light-skinned invaders. Genetic markers do suggest they interbred IIRC, but those are very tricky to interpret due to founder effect, dtc.
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't think modern Brits have a Slavic link. They are a mixture of Britons and sundry north Germanic tribes, hence the English language with its roots in low German.

What's fascinating is Cheddar Man's killer combination of dark skin and blue eyes. Blue eyes are supposed to have evolved only ten thousand years ago. So what is the story here?
The Anglo-Frisian languages are closely related to, but generally considered distinct from, Low German.
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Old 13th February 2018, 02:37 PM   #47
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Here is a problem for you. A filmmaker wants to make a movie about the first humans in England. What can he do about skin color
- Employ actors who have the right skin color
- Ignore the issue and introduce an inaccuracy before they have even started
- Darken the skin of some actors

Can they do the last without too many people calling out racism?
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Old 13th February 2018, 03:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I picture a diary-based superhero
Calendar Girl?
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Old 13th February 2018, 03:51 PM   #49
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Oh dear, what have our Swedish friends been up to? Motola Man is said to have impaled victims' heads on a stake.

Quote:
A group of 8,000-year-old human skulls, some embedded on stakes, has been found in a mysterious underwater grave that has baffled archaeologists.

One of the pierced skulls, found preserved in what was once a prehistoric lake in Sweden, was discovered with some of its brain tissue still intact.

The gruesome discovery challenges our understanding of European Stone Age culture and how these early humans handled their dead, experts said.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...ake-grave.html
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Old 13th February 2018, 08:54 PM   #50
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Thanks, interesting.

There is a photo in that article captioned:

"Scientists said they don't know what sort of weapon was used to inflict the damage, and that the wounds were serious but could not be tied to the cause of death. Pictured is evidence of posthumous carving of the remains as part of the burial ritual"

It's the lower jaw of a canine/wolf, definitely not human.



I suppose the daily mail screwed something up or the caption is just terribly worded.
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Old 17th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #51
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Heads up: the programme about the reconstruction of Cheddar Man's face, and hopefully, the DNA sequencing, will be on C4 tomorrow at 20:00 -21:00. (UK) "The First Brit: Secrets of the 10,000 Year Old Man."
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Old 17th February 2018, 05:35 PM   #52
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Deleted. Dup of Vixen's post.
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Old 17th February 2018, 09:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here is a problem for you. A filmmaker wants to make a movie about the first humans in England. What can he do about skin color
- Employ actors who have the right skin color
- Ignore the issue and introduce an inaccuracy before they have even started
- Darken the skin of some actors

Can they do the last without too many people calling out racism?
Black Panther is racist according to Alex Jones because of the "right" skin colour.

So I'm guessing -
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Old 18th February 2018, 09:56 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Here is a problem for you. A filmmaker wants to make a movie about the first humans in England. What can he do about skin color
- Employ actors who have the right skin color
- Ignore the issue and introduce an inaccuracy before they have even started
- Darken the skin of some actors

Can they do the last without too many people calling out racism?
They'll probably 'compromise' and use a Mexican with a deep tan and blue contact lenses.

Can't upset middle England Brexiteers and UKIP-ers tooooo much.

Unless, of course, it is BBC2 and then they'll use an ethnic African to show how deeply intellectual and proper they are.
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Old 18th February 2018, 08:06 PM   #55
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The leaders of the project: Chris Stringer, Tom Booth, et al, of Natural History Museum have now published the genome paper relating to Cheddar Man.

Extract of the Introduction:

Quote:
The roles of migration, admixture and acculturation in the European transition to
farming have been debated for over 100 years. Genome-wide ancient DNA studies
indicate predominantly Anatolian ancestry for continental Neolithic farmers, but also
variable admixture with local Mesolithic hunter-gatherers1-9. Neolithic cultures first
appear in Britain c. 6000 years ago (kBP), a millennium after they appear in adjacent
areas of northwestern continental Europe. However, the pattern and process of the
British Neolithic transition remains unclear10-15. We assembled genome-wide data
from six Mesolithic and 67 Neolithic individuals found in Britain, dating from 10.5-4.5
kBP, a dataset that includes 22 newly reported individuals and the first genomic data
from British Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Our analyses reveals persistent genetic
affinities between Mesolithic British and Western European hunter-gatherers over a
period spanning Britain’s separation from continental Europe.
The specimen is believed to be linked to the Loschbour, Luxemberg one, La Brana 1 in Spain, Hungary and Germany, as 'Western Europe Hunter Gatherers'.


This table, as follows, is from my own Ancient DNA notes:

ANCIENT DNA

Cheddar Man Mesolithic - Western Europe Hunter Gatherer Contemporaries

Nomenclature Age Haplotype
Loschbour Lux 8,000 U5b1a
KO1 2, Hungary 7,700 R3
NE1 Hungary 7,200 U5b2c
NE6, Hungary 7,100 K1a3a3
NE5, Hungary 7,100 T2a1a
LBK Stuttgart 7,000 T2c2
Motala-12, Swe 7,000 U2e1
La Brana, Spain 7,000 C6
NE7, Hungary 6,400 N1a

Another mystery cleared up.
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