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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 6th May 2019, 03:29 PM   #1521
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You seem to have nailed exactly what transition is later on, altering their bodies to match their identity and yet you seem at odds with this definition while saying you support transition.
I'm not at odds with it, but we have to make a choice, here. If trans women are women to begin with, then they can't transition. If they're not, then they can either physically transition into one, or they can't. So the only option where the word "transition" makes any sense is the second one.

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A cisman would not require transitioning. Transitioning is only relevant to transpeople.
Would not require does not mean cannot or would not. Ergo, your second sentence is incorrect.

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So i am honestly asking what you mean by supporting transitioning if you honestly believe it doesn't mean anything or change anything?
As I explained above, the issue is that there are several different interpretations, and in only one does the word "transition" actually change someone's gender. If you don't subscribe to that scenario, as I don't, then they don't transition at all. They get surgery.

Quote:
indeed. which is the case for all kinds of disorders and conditions. But the doctor is not simply there to unquestioningly give a patient what they ask for and there is a process to ensure a treatment is appropriate. Yes, it is possible that a cisman could fake it, but why on earth would they want to?
Fake it, be mistaken or confused, or pressured, etc. If you can fool your doctor into prescribing you opiates to soothe your addiction, you can fool them into thinking you need transition. Especially since, if they refuse, you can call them a bigot on socia media and get them fired or worse.

Quote:
Belz stated he supported transitioning
And by that, I simply mean that I support them getting whatever surgery or process is required to alter their bodies to their liking, just as do for anyone. I just wouldn't call it "transition" in the sense that they go from one gender to another, because I don't subcribe to the ideas that the term implies.

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You dont agree that people who oppose gay marriage are bigots?
I don't agree that they necessarily are. Let's say that, theoretically, someone has seen evidence, in their eyes, that homosexuals having a family and adopting children is harmful to those children. Now, whether or not they are correct about that, their concerns could make them decide that homosexual adoption should not be allowed despite being entirely in favour of people having sex with whomever they wish.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:32 PM   #1522
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Person 1: "X should be treated in way Y"
Person 2: "Doesn't that cause problem A?"
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "Why, though?"
Person 1: "A BIGOT would ask the same question. Accept without question!"
Person 2: "I don't think I will."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "That's not an argument."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "You're not going to get anywhere with this."
Person 1: "You're a BIGOT!"
Person 2: "Right, fine."
We are still at line 2 of this conversation then. Because problem A has not been presented. Just a load of assertions that transwomen arent women because.

I have literally spent about 5 or 6 pages now waiting for problem A to be explained. But so far all i have is 'i am.not comfortable with Person x' and yes that is analogous to the bigotries of old. If you disagree explain how its different but dry your eyes about the bigotry accusations first.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:34 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Those who deny transwomen rights are arguing there is something innate about being a woman that a transwoman can't ever attain.

Correct. A female body.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:39 PM   #1524
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Services and treatments, yes. But there is no test. A test is different than a treatment or a service.
I disagree. There are diagnostic tools and techniques. These are tests. They may not be as clear cut as an x-ray but that's how mental health works.

Its not perfect but its a long way off just saying you are trans, and its not the case that a doctor would agree to transitioning someone they didnt believe was trans, nor is it the case, as was the original point i countered, that it is the process of transitioning that makes someone trans.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:41 PM   #1525
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Thanks once again for unilaterally giving away someone else's rights.
You really have the blinkers on here. I did no such thing.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:45 PM   #1526
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You most certainly did.

Quote:
a compromise is to allow trans people to use the facility they wish to.

That is not a compromise, that is wholesale surrender of the rights of people who do not wish to relinquish sex segregation in public lavatories - which I might remind you is still the actual law, no matter how much it may be flouted at present.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:49 PM   #1527
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Both. Neither. I'm a rational adult stating my opinions and concerns, you are the same. Let us not overly worry about assigning us to the proper side.



Your entire argument can't be that everything we currently do that you are comfortable with is "Just the way it is and unlikely to be accepted differently" while arguing to a massive change that makes people uncomfortable.

Your "Comfort Card" can't have a lower mana cost and higher hit points then everybody else's. The "Victim" Card is no longer allowed for league play for use as a modifier.
No i think you misunderstood. I make no claim as to whether gender segregated bathrooms are right wrong or otherwise, nor is my comfort level relevant. I am merely trying to answer your question as to how we ended up where we are and why two things may appear at odds and yet be a practical solution.

I dont have a huge stake in the toilet business personally...doesnt bother me which toilet i use or who else is there with me and i dont really see admitting transpeople as a huge change.

I am awaiting enlightenment as to what the problem is from those who have strong opinions on the matter but i admit to being largely none the wiser other than vague sense of 'comfort' and a hand wave at 'rights'. I admit to perhaps not getting it, but the unwillingness of other parties to explain it isnt really helpful nor is the aggressive, insulting reaction often received
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:52 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You most certainly did.




That is not a compromise, that is wholesale surrender of the rights of people who do not wish to relinquish sex segregation in public lavatories - which I might remind you is still the actual law, no matter how much it may be flouted at present.
It is a compromise. It may not be one you agree with but it certainly is one. Also note that in what you quoted i did not state that it was right or wrong. Also note that i have no authority over targets toilet policy so am unable to surrender anyone's rights.

Incidentally what right is being lost? what harm is being done?

My understanding of the law is different to yours incidentally. Not sure if we want to get bogged down on that but i will state my disagreement anyway.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:53 PM   #1529
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
1. Why not? Gay rights was the biggest thing since civil rights for black people over where people like to stick their dicks. And civil rights was the biggest thing since whatever was before that over melanin levels.
Meh current year. Meh progress. Meh right side of history.

Such a noble person. They'll be writing history books about you kiddo.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:56 PM   #1530
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Just as a general observation from following the thread.

We don't need a single all-singing, all-dancing, always applicable definition of "woman" which allows us to separate the men from the women. We need one for top-level sport, another for recreational leagues, another for boarding schools, another for Target restrooms, another for STEM scholarships, and so forth.

It is possible to treat transwomen as women for all of your own social and personal purposes while recognizing that the designated gatekeepers of gender/sex-segregated spaces have a difficult and thankless task ahead of them.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:57 PM   #1531
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't care if a women who identifies as a woman uses the men's room (or vice versa) because I think gender separating bathrooms are stupid. But no I can't conceptualize a mental framework where I care about having separate bathrooms but don't care about some random exceptions to the rule.

I do not accept purely internal personal identification completely divorced from any and all actual objective differences as something I should be expected to factor into my worldview.

And the whole "Well not everybody is like you" is a copout since I'm still getting called a bigot. My choice is just to decide who calls me a bigot and for what reason.

Again I can't win, I can't lose, I can't quit the game. What do I do because the only option I have left is flipping over the table.
Actually unless you are doing physical exams on people you meet you absolutely are accepting their self identification on a daily basis. You might have a problem resolving this logically but that's exactly what you are doing.

I am sorry to hear people brand you a bigot, i have seen no evidence to suggest this is the case..

I think you have picked me or something up wrongly on the bathroom issue.
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Old 6th May 2019, 03:59 PM   #1532
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Quote:
Just a load of assertions that transwomen arent women because.
They aren't women because they haven't been born with or grown up with the female mind that has spent 200,000 years evolving to work with female bones, female hormones, female reproductive organs and female behaviors....

If you believe in evolution (as I do) you must realize you can't have a trait -like a penis- without also having the behaviors and mindset that accompanies that trait.

ETA: I know "female" is kinda misplaced in a couple of places, but I wasn't sure how to word it to make sense otherwise.
"Women bones, women hormones...etc. would be more correct factually, but sure makes for clunky reading.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:02 PM   #1533
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It is a compromise. It may not be one you agree with but it certainly is one. Also note that in what you quoted i did not state that it was right or wrong. Also note that i have no authority over targets toilet policy so am unable to surrender anyone's rights.

Incidentally what right is being lost? what harm is being done?

My understanding of the law is different to yours incidentally. Not sure if we want to get bogged down on that but i will state my disagreement anyway.

Thank goodness you're not in charge, indeed.

No, it's not a compromise. Men who want to be women are demanding free unfettered access as of right to women's lavatories. Women do not want this to happen. Declaring that this is a solution is not a compromise, women are being asked to give up everything, trans are getting exactly what they want.

I'm somewhat tired of repeating the reasons why women require sex-segregated lavatories, I did it again not too far upthread. There is corrently a human rights campaign going to improve the provision of sex-segregated lavatories in the third world so that girls can actually go to school on the days they have their period (or even at all), for the same reasons. Ironically there are prominent posters advertising this charitable appeal and how one can donate by text phone placed on the inside of the stall doors in many ladies' toilets. You can imagine the state of our irony meters when we see these appeals, these days.

You might want to look up the exemptions in the Equality Act that allow single-sex provision where this is required for sex-specific purposes. Also the law as it relates to the provision of separate male and female toilets in schools.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:04 PM   #1534
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
We are still at line 2 of this conversation then. Because problem A has not been presented.
That's strongly disingenuous. The problems have been explained in depth, over and over. I don't believe for a second that you missed them, or that you really think that it's just about comfort.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It is a compromise.
How is it a compromise? What is being compromised on the other side?

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You most certainly did.

That is not a compromise, that is wholesale surrender of the rights of people who do not wish to relinquish sex segregation in public lavatories - which I might remind you is still the actual law, no matter how much it may be flouted at present.
Rolfe, having segregated restrooms is not a right.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:07 PM   #1535
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
. Those who deny transwomen rights are arguing there is something innate about being a woman that a transwoman can't ever attain.


What?
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:08 PM   #1536
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Actually unless you are doing physical exams on people you meet you absolutely are accepting their self identification on a daily basis.

You seem to think that it isn't blindingly obvious when someone is actually a man, even though he's tricked out in a mother-of-the-bride outfit or similar. I don't doubt there are occasional cases where one might not notice, but come on!

Just because I don't go up to these people and comment that they look like right chookies and if they think they're fooling anyone they're very much mistaken, doesn't mean I'm "accepting their self identification". In the context of the trend to "identify" as a transwoman while changing pretty much nothing about one's outward appearance, the opposite applies. They look like the men they are, there's nothing showing to give us a clue about this mystical identity, so we're entirely oblivious of it.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:12 PM   #1537
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Rolfe, having segregated restrooms is not a right.

The equalities act allows for the provision of single-sex facilities in certain circumstances, and this is one of them. The right is to have either a genuine unisex provision where absolutely everything is in a single-person room behind a lockable door with no shared washing/grooming space (as one often finds in very small establishments), or single-sex provision. This is being flouted more and more, but it's still the law.

In particular children at school above the age of eight are supposed, by law, to be provided with single-sex toilets. The stuff I hear going on in a lot of schools these days is simply illegal. The girls who aren't drinking so they don't have to go to the mixed-sex lavatories at school don't know that of course.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:18 PM   #1538
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Those who deny transwomen rights are arguing there is something innate about being a woman that a transwoman can't ever attain.

Once more, with feeling.

Yes there is. A female body.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:18 PM   #1539
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The equalities act allows for the provision of single-sex facilities in certain circumstances, and this is one of them. The right is to have either a genuine unisex provision where absolutely everything is in a single-person room behind a lockable door with no shared washing/grooming space (as one often finds in very small establishments), or single-sex provision. This is being flouted more and more, but it's still the law.

In particular children at school above the age of eight are supposed, by law, to be provided with single-sex toilets.
I didn't say there weren't lawful accomodations. But I wouldn't call it a right, like the right to free speech or the right to legal representation.
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Old 6th May 2019, 04:25 PM   #1540
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
ally spent about 5 or 6 pages now waiting for problem A to be explained. But so far all i have is 'i am.not comfortable with Person x' and yes that is analogous to the bigotries of old. If you disagree explain how its different but dry your eyes about the bigotry accusations first.
What you don't seem to understand is these shaming tactics have diminishing returns. You probably noticed no one is the least bit intimidated by your "you're just like those bigots of old!" accusation. The other guy seemed somewhat cognizant of this so he went straight for the "big guns" and compared denying transsexuals from undressing in front of little girls to the holocaust.

This is why it helps to have actual arguments.

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Old 6th May 2019, 05:24 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
You seem to think that it isn't blindingly obvious when someone is actually a man, even though he's tricked out in a mother-of-the-bride outfit or similar. I don't doubt there are occasional cases where one might not notice, but come on!

Just because I don't go up to these people and comment that they look like right chookies and if they think they're fooling anyone they're very much mistaken, doesn't mean I'm "accepting their self identification". In the context of the trend to "identify" as a transwoman while changing pretty much nothing about one's outward appearance, the opposite applies. They look like the men they are, there's nothing showing to give us a clue about this mystical identity, so we're entirely oblivious of it.
It isnt blindingly obvious necessarily when someone is a man. I have had doubts on many occasions in both directions.

As for outward appearance you appear to be assuming a lot about how women and men should look externally. Its just about the physical for you but a few posts back someone else is saying its about the mind. You might understand why these objections seem confused.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:27 PM   #1542
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As promised, I will address arguments from Archie (yes I know that's your avatar's name, not yours, but....). After I made that promise, though, Archie said that I shouldn't deal with the whole definition of "man" and "woman" thing. I thought about just dropping it then, because that is indeed the center of controversy, but I hate ducking questions. I will try to address the points only using those terms in conjunction with "cis" or "trans".

I don't particularly like the "cis" words. Indeed, I think they are a part of the gaslighting to which Rolfe refers, but at least they have definitions that we can all agree on. When referring to "trans" people, that will include people that have not yet begun transitioning, or who have no intention to transition, or who have completely transitioned. Where necessary, I will make the distinction.

I will also attempt to address the situation in the locker room and on the playing field, i.e. in both sport participation and gender segregated facilities. Let's see if I can do this without "man" or "woman". If I refer to "male" or "female", I mean the biological terms. Also, I will continue to discuss primarily the mingling of transwomen with ciswomen, but most of the arguments apply to mingling of transmen and cismen, but generally with less significance.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I will address your main argument now.

1. Women don't feel comfortable undressing in front of men.

Ok. So where do we go with that? I am a man and I don't feel comfortable being naked in front of men either. Most people probably dont feel comfortable being naked in front of strangers. You know the 'oi oi bums to the wall boys' brigade dont feel comfortable changing with gay men too.

The question is to what extent do feelings of discomfort allow us to dictate the rights of others.

Also note that you are now classifying transwomen as men apparently. Which is problematic.

In accordance with the terms of the debate, I will rephrase my original (which Archie has already rephrased).


1. Cis-women feel uncomfortable undressing in front of cis-men.


A lot has already been said about whether or not that ought to be the case, and whether or not it is instinctive or a cultural artifact. I won't elaborate here. The fact is that most of them do indeed feel that way and that isn't going to change.


As Archie points out, there are also varying degrees of discomfort experienced by people undressing in front of cispeople who share their own sex, and this is unquestionably true. If given an opportunity, most people would opt for private changing areas. However, there are economic considerations. Simply put, it is more expensive to pay for privacy. When we look at patterns in private gyms, we can see what people are willing to pay for. The vast majority of people will opt for segregated rooms, which they perceive as a benefit even if it comes at a slight cost, but will not pay for complete privacy.

The question of whether or not they ought to feel this way and whether we ought to accommodate their feelings in public (i.e. governmentally operated) facilities will be addressed in other sections below.


When it comes to ciswomen undressing in front of transwomen, the discomfort level is actually unchanged, because the transwoman is indistinguishable from a cis-man. The only differences are inside their heads, which cannot be discerned by the observer. (Note: This only applies to pre-operative or non-operative transwomen. This point does not apply to post-operative transwomen.)


Since this point is about comfort, not about performance, there is not much significance to the subject of athletic participation when it comes to the subject of discomfort, with one notable exception. In the sport of wrestling, close contact is part of the sport, and at least some incidental contact with intimate areas is inevitable. A high school cisboy is almost certain to feel extreme discomfort wrestling against a high school transboy. (If he doesn't, I would be a bit concerned.) A cisgirl may also feel discomfort wrestling a transgirl, apart and distinct from whatever advantage the transgirl might have as a result of her male biology.

Quote:
2. Its discrimination against men, not trans folk

This fails the sniff test for me because it is not men who are impacted by the discrimation, but transwomen. You could make an argument that excluding gay men from locker rooms is not discriminating against gay men, but against people who have sex with men. I think (hope) you would agree this would just be clutching at wordplay straws.

The ciswomen are trying to exclude cismen from their spaces, and in order to do so, they must also exclude anyone who is indistinguishable from a cisman.



Quote:
3. There's no reason to exclude black people

Indeed. But do you agree it was wrong to exclude them? Even before society had worked through it all? Because it wasnt fair to black people to exclude them without a good reason or to assume that exclusion is right until we can show it isnt. It wasnt right that black people were segregated ever because some white folk weren't comfortable sharing.

I would agree that it was wrong to exclude them. More importantly, this sort of "wrong" was not merely a moral wrongness, but a factual wrongness. We can look objectively at the difference between star bellied sneeches and plain bellied sneeches and conclude that regardless of whatever significance sneech society placed on the stars, there really wasn't any difference. Likewise with dark or pale skin tone, which is what Dr. Seuss was really talking about. There is no objective difference.

In the case of sex, the differences are significant. A male is capable of impregnating a female. That matters. There are instinctive sexual responses associated with male and female bodies. That matters. As we all, know, sexual orientation is not the same as gender identity, in which case a transwoman might be a lesbian. If that is the case, then the ciswoman is undressing in front of a stranger, who happens to be large enough to overpower her physically, penetrate her against her will and impregnate her. Even if the physical surroundings or social setting is such that such an attack is unlikely, there is an anxiety associated with proximity to a naked cisman due to that possibility. Most people would say that such anxiety is perfectly natural and understandable. Since the transwoman is indistinguishable from a cisman, the anxiety level would not be diminished in the presence of an unknown transwoman. The anxiety has, as its source, genuine differences between biological males and biological females.

In the case of a known transwoman, (i.e. one personally known to the ciswoman), there may be some sort of relationship that puts her mind at ease and would make the ciswoman more willing to undress. However, in that case, it's her choice. Oh, and there might also be a relationship with the transwoman that would make the ciswoman say that no way in Hell is she going to get naked near that specific transwoman.

I am stressing the possibility of physically overpower as significant there, and it is, but some people might make the mistake of then thinking that there should be no problem with a transboy undressing in the presence of cisboys. The transboy cannot overpower them and penetrate him. No, they can't, but there might be other issues, especially in high school. The possible consequences of putting a naked transboy into a room with one or more naked cisboys is left as an exercise for the reader.


I am stressing the most extreme differences and possible problems between trans and cis variants here, but in reality there are a whole host of issues, some emotional and some physical, all related to the fact that males and females are capable of sexual intercourse and reproduction. These differences are significant, unlike the difference in skin tone that used to be considered significant.

In the case of sporting participation, there, the difference are also obvious and significant. The transwoman has a clear advantage, not based on any societal actions, but purely on biology. Some of those advantages persist even after transitioning. I will leave it to specific governing bodies of specific sports to decide what rules ought to apply to transwomen participating in the "women's" category, but there would be no injustice done if all transwomen, regardless of transition state, were simply banned. There may be arguments for allowing them to participate, possibly with restrictions or handicaps, but it would not be unjust to ban them.


Maybe some would not perceive it as an injustice to allow them to participate unrestricted or unhandicapped. It might not be a "justice" issue as such, but it would simply make the competition insignificant. A transgirl (or transwoman) with marginal athletic ability will win a competition against a cisgirl (or ciswoman) with exceptional athletic ability.


Archie's original post had points four and five as well, but I don't think there's anything really significant that is different from the points above. I think my answers above address those points as well, but if there is something I missed, I'll address it later.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 6th May 2019 at 06:41 PM. Reason: I used "transboy" in one spot where I mean "transgirl". This gets confusing.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:31 PM   #1543
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Thank goodness you're not in charge, indeed.

No, it's not a compromise. Men who want to be women are demanding free unfettered access as of right to women's lavatories. Women do not want this to happen. Declaring that this is a solution is not a compromise, women are being asked to give up everything, trans are getting exactly what they want.

I'm somewhat tired of repeating the reasons why women require sex-segregated lavatories, I did it again not too far upthread. There is corrently a human rights campaign going to improve the provision of sex-segregated lavatories in the third world so that girls can actually go to school on the days they have their period (or even at all), for the same reasons. Ironically there are prominent posters advertising this charitable appeal and how one can donate by text phone placed on the inside of the stall doors in many ladies' toilets. You can imagine the state of our irony meters when we see these appeals, these days.

You might want to look up the exemptions in the Equality Act that allow single-sex provision where this is required for sex-specific purposes. Also the law as it relates to the provision of separate male and female toilets in schools.
Thanks for this. Assume i am clueless because i really dont see why periods require segregated bathrooms. i mean the women i have lived with have managed without one at home.

Your clarification on bathroom law agrees with my understanding. it is legal to have a segregated space provided it is justified. it is not a requirement nor a right to have one. This is an important difference
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:33 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Once more, with feeling.

Yes there is. A female body.
The poster above disagrees with you. They say its a female mind.

Should i assume that should technology be able to sufficiently provide a transwoman with a female body to the point where you can't tell the difference you would be cool with sharing spaces?
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:38 PM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It isnt blindingly obvious necessarily when someone is a man.
It's obvious 995 times out of 1000. That's pretty reliable.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:49 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
(Note: This only applies to pre-operative or non-operative transwomen. This point does not apply to post-operative transwomen.)

Point of information. Most post-operative transwomen (transsexuals) still look and sound like men. It's not just about the genitalia, it's about the entire "presence" of the person. The absence of dangly bits may not be noticed, because I would expect a transsexual to be discreet when changing rather than exhibitionist, and the rest of the body is usually fairly obviously male.

It's the general body shape, the adam's apple, the texture of the skin, the appearance of the face - and many of them have male pattern baldness too. Oh yes, and the baritone voice. Post-op transsexuals don't look that different from men who aren't going to do that stuff. You need a lot of expensive facial feminisation surgery, shaving the laryngeal cartilege, voice coaching and so on to counter that. And hair implants. I'm not saying it can't be done and although I've never met Kristina Harrison in person I'm impressed by the videos. But on balance, Kristina is the exception.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

The thing is, women knew transsexuals were there, but for decades when they saw someone looking like that they assumed the person had had the surgery or else they wouldn't be there. So we curbed our tendency to recoil and over-rode our reflexes and smiled nicely and reminded ourselves that these people had a hard time of it and they weren't any sort of threat and deserved to be treated as honorary women. It was an unspoken compact.

Now, the advent of the aggressive "I identify as a woman and you WILL regard my lady penis as female" contingent have completely trashed that compact. As women wise up to what's going on, they become more and more uncomfortable with any male-bodied person in their space. We can't really tell if they're post-op or not. We used to assume that they were (although probably some weren't). We can't make that assumption any longer.

This is why many transsexuals are vocally in support of women against self-ID. They know they're losing the "kindly fiction" whereby we tacitly agreed to treat them as if they were women, because we assumed their background and surgical status. Once that's gone, it's gone for all trans-identifying males, at least the ones who don't pass which is most of them, and it's probably not going to come back any time soon.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:51 PM   #1547
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Thanks for this. Assume i am clueless because i really dont see why periods require segregated bathrooms. i mean the women i have lived with have managed without one at home.
The key words there are "at home." That in and of itself is a comfort zone. And you can usually close and lock the door, gaining complete privacy.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:54 PM   #1548
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The poster above disagrees with you. They say its a female mind.

Should i assume that should technology be able to sufficiently provide a transwoman with a female body to the point where you can't tell the difference you would be cool with sharing spaces?

Come back to me on that one when Don't Bite The Sun is reality.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:56 PM   #1549
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The thing is, women knew transsexuals were there, but for decades when they saw someone looking like that they assumed the person had had the surgery or else they wouldn't be there. So we curbed our tendency to recoil and over-rode our reflexes and smiled nicely and reminded ourselves that these people had a hard time of it and they weren't any sort of threat and deserved to be treated as honorary women. It was an unspoken compact.

Like so much of what Rolfe says, I really wish more people understood this, and understood why it matters.
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Old 6th May 2019, 05:57 PM   #1550
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Thanks for this. Assume i am clueless because i really dont see why periods require segregated bathrooms. i mean the women i have lived with have managed without one at home.



Your clarification on bathroom law agrees with my understanding. it is legal to have a segregated space provided it is justified. it is not a requirement nor a right to have one. This is an important difference
Your bathroom at home is extremely segregated. Extremely. Extreeemly. E. X. Tremely. Segregated. Figure it out.
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:04 PM   #1551
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Assume i am clueless because i really dont see why periods require segregated bathrooms. i mean the women i have lived with have managed without one at home.

For pity's sake. Women manage periods at home all the time, because they have their space and their strategies, plenty fresh supplies of whatever they need, and washing facilities. And the men around are family, for goodness sake. Even as an adult the idea of having to rinse out bloodstained underwear in a washbasin with strange men walking past grosses me out, and the people most likely to be in that position are young girls coping with the start of the whole thing.

We know perverts like JY present as trans and have a menstruation fetish. Who knows how many of him there are around? But leaving JY and his tampons-in-ten-year-olds fixation aside, the mere presence of men around is a no-no in that situation.

Did you know that a pretty substantial proportion of miscarriages occur in the ladies' rooms of pubs?

Women need to fix wardrobe malfunctions. Mothers may need to use the lavatory with the door open to watch a baby in a pram. Pub ladies rooms (again) are the standard means of escape from the guy who won't leave you alone and is becoming a nuisance. He can't follow you in there, and that's the place where you can recruit help.

You guys simply don't have a clue about how we live, half the time.

Something else. We're getting to know Mr. Autogynaephilia a lot better than we did (many of the old-school transsexuals being HSTS). We understand what's making Mr. Autogynaephilia tick. He says "I just want to pee!" but that's a disingenuous lie. A large part of the fetish is the satisfaction these guys get when they believe they're really part of what I just described. Girly talk. Bonding (JY talks about wanting to "bond" with the ten-year-old he's going to ask for that tampon). Women's mysteries. This is why they angrily reject offers of third spaces just for them. They want to be one of the girls, and it's a sexual thrill for them. Worse still, with some of them the thrill is greater if they realise they're making women uncomfortable, or if they're challenged and they can then get on to their high horse about bigotry and transphobia and hate speech. They like to dominate, as well as be part of, women's mysteries.

How do you think that makes us feel, if we have to do anything from pinning up a bra strap to coping with a pregnancy disaster, and there's the possiblilty that some man who gets his thrills from being one of the girls is lapping it all up?
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:35 PM   #1552
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
<snip>

Did you know that a pretty substantial proportion of miscarriages occur in the ladies' rooms of pubs?

<snip>

Interesting. Would you provide links to the sources of this information?
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:35 PM   #1553
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Oh, and there might also be a relationship with the transwoman that would make the ciswoman say that no way in Hell is she going to get naked near that specific transwoman.

Oh yes. Indeed. Most certainly. If I see Roz Kaveney within a hundred yards of any ladies loo I was thinking of using, I'll cross my legs, thankyouverymuch.
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:37 PM   #1554
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Those who deny transwomen rights are arguing there is something innate about being a woman that a transwoman can't ever attain.
That's a bit of a silly statement, because there are dozens of things a trans woman can't ever attain.

In no particular order:

A uterus
Periods
Menopause
Pregnancy

Just for starters.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It is possible to treat transwomen as women for all of your own social and personal purposes while recognizing that the designated gatekeepers of gender/sex-segregated spaces have a difficult and thankless task ahead of them.
Which brings us neatly full circle. The logistics of governance of those spaces says that a sensible answer won't be found, so we're back to catering for a very small group, or a very large one.

Always nice to go full circle.
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:38 PM   #1555
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I disagree. There are diagnostic tools and techniques. These are tests. They may not be as clear cut as an x-ray but that's how mental health works.
No, actually, in general mental health conditions don't work like transgenderism. You don't need to claim to be schizophrenic to be diagnosed as schizophrenic. You don't need to claim to have an anxiety disorder to be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. Etc, etc.

But self-identification is at the heart of trans identity. It's the biggest component of any diagnosis. That isn't typical at all.
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:44 PM   #1556
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Which brings us neatly full circle. The logistics of governance of those spaces says that a sensible answer won't be found, so we're back to catering for a very small group, or a very large one.
I found the answer based on functioning SRY genes fairly sensible, when it comes to elite sport.
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Old 6th May 2019, 06:46 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No, actually, in general mental health conditions don't work like transgenderism. You don't need to claim to be schizophrenic to be diagnosed as schizophrenic. You don't need to claim to have an anxiety disorder to be diagnosed with an anxiety disorder. Etc, etc.

But self-identification is at the heart of trans identity. It's the biggest component of any diagnosis. That isn't typical at all.

Seriously, do watch this film and then tell me that only people who will never regret it are put through the transing process.

https://www.svtplay.se/video/2203545...he-trans-train
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Old 6th May 2019, 07:27 PM   #1558
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Oh yes. Indeed. Most certainly. If I see Roz Kaveney within a hundred yards of any ladies loo I was thinking of using, I'll cross my legs, thankyouverymuch.
In one of the high profile "transgirl in the girls' locker room" cases that sparked a walkout by the girls that shared the locker room, I got the distinct impression from the sound bites on the news media stories that there was something about this specific transgirl that made the girls nervous. It wasn't a huge city, so most of the girls who had walked out in protest had known "her" when "she" was a "he". I got the feeing that perhaps back before the announcement of gender identity, they thought he was creepy, and they weren't really keen on walking around in front of him/her in their underwear.
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Old 6th May 2019, 08:00 PM   #1559
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I found the answer based on functioning SRY genes fairly sensible, when it comes to elite sport.
Sure, but sport is the highest profile but least important of the whole question, and the action there isn't available or desirable for daily life.
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Old 6th May 2019, 08:05 PM   #1560
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sure, but sport is the highest profile but least important of the whole question, and the action there isn't available or desirable for daily life.
That's part of what I was trying to get at earlier, though. Each instance of sex segregation requires its own well-grounded rationale; we shouldn't expect a single dichotomy to serve well in all cases.
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