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Old 6th September 2018, 07:55 AM   #241
TX50
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Still done by hand, though.
Yeah, I thought it was a clever solution. Way better than knitted wool painted silver, anyway.
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Old 6th September 2018, 08:03 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Yeah, I thought it was a clever solution. Way better than knitted wool painted silver, anyway.
Oh, yes, indeed. I think I heard that there was someone whose full time job was repairing that armour since it obviously wasn't as hard-wearing as the real thing.
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Old 6th September 2018, 08:17 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Yeah, I thought it was a clever solution. Way better than knitted wool painted silver, anyway.
Better in what way? Things look different on camera than they do to the naked eye. If silver wool captures has the right look when filmed in a certain way, why not use that technique instead of something more expensive?

Authenticity is a red herring, anyway. What movies actually need to deliver is verisimilitude. And even that can just be an approximation, in many cases. If silver wool gives enough of a sense of armor to allow the audience to get on with the story, why not use that technique instead of something more expensive?

Unless you're producing an educational film for aeronautics students, about the fluid dynamic properties of the Spitfire wing, the Spitfires in your movie probably don't have to look much like authentic Spitfires at all.*


*At least, not for reasons of authenticity. The Supermarine Spitfire is an iconic shape in popular culture, so you'd probably want an authentic look anyway. Not for the authenticity, but for the verisimilitude.
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Old 6th September 2018, 08:23 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If silver wool captures has the right look when filmed in a certain way, why not use that technique instead of something more expensive?
Because it doesn't capture the right look. I'm sure if Weta thought it did then they'd have got knitting and spraying away.
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Old 6th September 2018, 08:35 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Because it doesn't capture the right look. I'm sure if Weta thought it did then they'd have got knitting and spraying away.
I'm not saying it always captures the right look. Depending on your budget, your photography equipment and techniques, the artistic and practical requirements of the shoot, etc., painted wool may be a terrible choice.

I'm saying, it's not always a worse choice, or some production companies wouldn't have used it.

I'm also saying that for a lot of productions, "good enough to carry the audience through the story" is a way better choice than "authentic enough to satisfy the subject matter aficionados". For a lot of productions, the "misrepresentations" aren't really misrepresentations at all. They're sufficiently accurate representations, for the purpose of telling the story.
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:24 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
What, no lovehate for Excalibur?

Love the 6th century armor.
Given that the film is clearly portraying the legend ,and not Historical reality I had no problem with the use of late Medieval Armor in it.
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:27 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I'm going to be pendantic here - Gladiator's opening battle scene was supposed to be representative of Marcus Aurelius' Marcomannic Wars which were fought in Bohemia or modern day Czech Republic. Having the war end decisively, and Commodus not having already been a co-ruler of Rome alongside Marcus Aurelius at the time of his death is the inaccuracy, not the defeat of Germanic tribes in battle.

Gladiator is definitely a movie that takes liberties with history to tell a story. However, since it tells the story well and the performances are good, we can perhaps forgive the way it plays looser with history than we might like.
ANd if you are going to complain about Russell Crowe portraying a Roman, you might as well bitch about an Aussie portraying Good Queen Bess...
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:28 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
Some of the mail shirts in the long shots were made from slices of alkathene water pipe. The Weta guy shows the jigs they used in one of the DVD extras.
And Weta also designed Thanos's Infinitry Gauntlet....
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Old 6th September 2018, 12:34 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And Weta also designed Thanos's Infinitry Gauntlet....
Yeah, but did they forge it out of magical alloys, bathed in the energy of a neutron star?

Because otherwise it's a misrepresentation. We should all point and laugh at Weta.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:04 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Those are hundreds of people spending some of their surplus wealth on their hobby of choice.

The makers of a movie are setting out to generate wealth. They quite reasonably want to minimize the amount of wealth they have to spend in the process.
Why do you think those groups are being hired for movies?
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:15 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Here's another weird one.

The past was a lot more... colorful then we tend to think of it and the image of much of the past being in dulled and Earth tones populated entirely by people wearing shades of brown is not accurate.

Roman and Greek marble statues and such were usually painted in bright, even outlandish or garish colors and the clean white marble look we associate with them now is just a side effect of the color wearing off leaving only the marble.

The Great Pyramids were finished with pure white, highly polished casing stones of limestone that have broken away / been looted over the years.

When historians renovated Thomas Jefferson's Monticello to period accurate colors many visitors complained that they had turned the home of the Third President into a 70s Hippie Den.
As to the Roman colours. there are still examples that retain their colour. I have seen alter and grave stones and votive carvings in the various museums along Hadrians Wall that still show colour.

(Alters were erected to fulfil oaths made to the gods for aid. there are dozens along the wall ranging in size from that of a house brick up to six foot tall monsters. Gravestones number in the dozens and again some are small and plain, others large and intricate. The best ones are those paid for by legionaries to a fall en comrade, when you were in a legion a part of your pay went to the 'funeral fund' which paid for your burial, if you were popular your fellow legionaries would chip some money in.
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Old 6th September 2018, 02:19 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
You can actually make a bit of a sport out of watching old sword and sandal flicks and "spotting the armour". The same items crop up over and over. When those movies were popular, there must have been huge warehouses of the stuff somewhere ready to hire out for movie props.
there are . You can hire foam rubber M1 Garands and Lee Enfields by the dozen.

Next time you watch 'Hot Fuzz' Look at the two pump action shotguns Angel has on his backpack as he rides in to town for the final shoot-out. Neither of them have triggers. they are rubber replicas.
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Old 6th September 2018, 03:01 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
Why do you think those groups are being hired for movies?
Because they're a relatively cheap source of verisimilitude.
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Old 6th September 2018, 05:32 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, but did they forge it out of magical alloys, bathed in the energy of a neutron star?

Because otherwise it's a misrepresentation. We should all point and laugh at Weta.
No, but nor is it a representation of a historical object.
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Old 6th September 2018, 07:50 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I'm going to be pendantic here - Gladiator's opening battle scene was supposed to be representative of Marcus Aurelius' Marcomannic Wars which were fought in Bohemia or modern day Czech Republic. Having the war end decisively, and Commodus not having already been a co-ruler of Rome alongside Marcus Aurelius at the time of his death is the inaccuracy, not the defeat of Germanic tribes in battle.

Gladiator is definitely a movie that takes liberties with history to tell a story. However, since it tells the story well and the performances are good, we can perhaps forgive the way it plays looser with history than we might like.
Am currently looking up Marcomannic Wars on Wiki and willing to concede correction. However, I will point out that the beginning of Gladiator shows one main battle in a forest. A decisive slaughter, at that. The Marcomannic Wars were fought over a period of years. I've formed the impression the Marcomannic Wars may have been intended as background to Gladiator to a degree but the Battle of Teutoburg Forest is what the audience were given upfront - so as to establish a general time at place the opening scenes - and to grab viewer attention in the same way James Bond movies do to a formula. Expedient Hollywood storytelling.

Last edited by dellarte; 6th September 2018 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 6th September 2018, 08:02 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by dellarte View Post
Am currently looking up Marcomannic Wars on Wiki and willing to concede correction. However, I will point out that the beginning of Gladiator shows one main battle in a forest. A decisive slaughter, at that. The Marcomannic Wars were fought over a period of years. I've formed the impression the Marcomannic Wars were intended as background to Gladiator but the Battle of Teutoburg Forest is what the audience were given upfront - so as to establish a general time at place the opening scenes - and to grab viewer attention in the same way James Bond movies do to a formula. Expedient Hollywood storytelling.
Well as the director of Seventh Voyage of Sinbad said to another film crew shooting some TV serial involving a sailing ship whose name I can't remember "You're in the wrong century". My great grandfather Marcus Aurelius would be so hurt.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:43 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yeah, but did they forge it out of magical alloys, bathed in the energy of a neutron star?

Because otherwise it's a misrepresentation. We should all point and laugh at Weta.

In the comics, the Infinity Gauntlet was just Thanos' ordinary glove, with the gems attached. Making it a uniquely constructed item was completely inauthentic.
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Old 7th September 2018, 05:51 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, but nor is it a representation of a historical object.
So? The MCU canon is quite clear that it's not made of PVC sections spray-painted gold, or whatever.
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Old 7th September 2018, 12:30 PM   #259
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Even the best directors have limitations. Kubrick, for example is known for his penchant for authenticity but in Barry Lyndon most of the soldiers in the battle scenes are using converted 19th century Springfield rifles with only one or two ‘hero’ weapons around that were authentic Brown Bess muskets. During the Prussian scenes the Brown Bess still had to stand in for Potsdam muskets.

I don’t know if budget limitations hindered him or if with the American Revolution’s 200th rapidly approaching getting Brown Bess in quantity was too hard.

Potsdam replicas are hard to get even today.
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:17 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by dellarte View Post
Am currently looking up Marcomannic Wars on Wiki and willing to concede correction. However, I will point out that the beginning of Gladiator shows one main battle in a forest. A decisive slaughter, at that. The Marcomannic Wars were fought over a period of years. I've formed the impression the Marcomannic Wars may have been intended as background to Gladiator to a degree but the Battle of Teutoburg Forest is what the audience were given upfront - so as to establish a general time at place the opening scenes - and to grab viewer attention in the same way James Bond movies do to a formula. Expedient Hollywood storytelling.
Adding: And, an ambush.


(pun unintended)
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Old 9th September 2018, 02:28 AM   #261
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Old 20th September 2018, 12:12 PM   #262
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Harleys? Never mind the Harleys, here's an M3!

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I think it depends, I can forgive Steve McQueen for using a Triumph TR6 Trophy Bird in 'The Great Escape" because it still looks like a bike from the period and it sounds like the business. However, the use of much more modern (offroad!) bikes painted Wermacht green in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade rankled.

(Edited to allow posting)

Sometimes it's hard to acquire the proper miliray gear especially during the war. The opening sequence in Five Graves to Cairo the Wermacht come rumbling into town on Harleys. What are you gonna' do?
They also come rumbling in riding M3 Stuarts/Honeys, which were in British service at the time! Granted in 1943 you're not going to have any panzers to use, so you have to go with what you've got, and the Germans, being greedy little goblins, used any captured vehicle they could lay their hands on, which did in real life include a *few* functional M3s. However! SPOILER ALERT (it's 65 years old but you may not have seen it) the idea of Germans stockpiling secret supply depots in the depths of Egypt is daft. First of all, they had no intention of getting involved in Egypt in the first place; secondly, they were utterly inept when it came to logistics in the desert and, Erwin, I'm looking right at you here; thirdly, they didn't need any secret stockpiles of anything, having captured an enormous amount of booty from the British when they captured Tobruk.

Descending into nit-pickism, and whilst on the subject of Tobruk, in "The English Patient", during the Axis capture of that port in June 1942, we briefly see an Archer self-propelled anti-tank gun in German colours. Well, it was British and not around until long after the war in North Africa had finished.
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Old 20th September 2018, 06:51 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by dellarte View Post
Am currently looking up Marcomannic Wars on Wiki and willing to concede correction. However, I will point out that the beginning of Gladiator shows one main battle in a forest. A decisive slaughter, at that. The Marcomannic Wars were fought over a period of years. I've formed the impression the Marcomannic Wars may have been intended as background to Gladiator to a degree but the Battle of Teutoburg Forest is what the audience were given upfront - so as to establish a general time at place the opening scenes - and to grab viewer attention in the same way James Bond movies do to a formula. Expedient Hollywood storytelling.
First of all much of the Marcomannic War was indeed fought in forests. Interestingly their was an incident in the wars in which a Roman army was in serious difficulty and on the verge of being annihilated by the German tribes when what was called the "Rain Miracle" happened. In fact this "miracle" is shown in a metaphoric way on Marcus' column in Rome. The "Miracle" seems to have consisted of a very violent thunderstorm that scared and disrupted the German tribes attacking a Roman army so much that the Romans were able to escape.. The Marcomannic wars occurred in the late 160s and early to mid 170s. (Times not clearly established. When the "Rain Miracle" occurred during this time period is subject to much debate. The best literary source for the "Rain Miracle" is the Roman historian Dio Cassius whose description of the event is very brief.

As for similarity to the Battle of Teutoburg Wald. There are several problems with that idea. Firstly the battle was in 9 C.E. more than a 150 years before the Marcomannic War so it wasn't in the same general time. Secondly the Battle of Teutoburg Wald was a crushing German victory over an army of three Roman Legions + 6 Cohorts and Auxiliary troops probably numbering altogether well over 20,000 men. Practically no Roman escaped. The scene in Gladiator is s Roman victory in a face to face battle. Teutoburg Wald was a series of ambushes by the Germans.

So no I don't see that the audience is given the battle of Teutoburg Wald "up front".
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Old 20th September 2018, 07:14 PM   #264
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On the other hand, the audience wasn't promised that battle, and wasn't expecting it, and wouldn't have recognized it anyway. Kinda hard to see any misrepresentation there.
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