ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th December 2017, 01:33 PM   #241
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 12,527
Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
Speaking of Churchills, I was gutted that neither the Churchill nor the Matilda II were running when I went to tankfest.

I'm hoping they will have at least one of these at next years event - They will have an IS-3 making a cameo so think I might make my way to it.
Consolation prize and preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGGyoTro_o
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th December 2017, 02:44 AM   #242
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,377
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
My impression is that, between a Tiger and a Firefly, it basically came down to who got the first shot in.
Exactly.

Look up the death of Michael Wittmann to see what Fireflies could do to Tigers.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 09:47 AM   #243
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,755
Tonks for wine!


Yes, I know it is technically an APC
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 10:39 AM   #244
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,543
I discovered this interesting contraption on Navweaps.com. They've got a page on it because people keep conflating it with the battleship gun of the same caliber.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 11:28 AM   #245
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 27,721
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I discovered this interesting contraption on Navweaps.com. They've got a page on it because people keep conflating it with the battleship gun of the same caliber.
I've got a model of one; it's quite an easy conversion from the Airfix 1/76 kit.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th January 2018, 01:21 PM   #246
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
There are a couple of 1/35 kits on the go. Tamiya do a very good one.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th January 2018, 12:47 AM   #247
Hubert Cumberdale
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,072
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post

Basically I'm saying that by making it that much less of a target, the M3 would have been both cheaper and actually better as an assault gun than it was as a tank.
I now know the answer to this one!

Simple fact is that armoured branch were quite happy to ditch the 37mm and turret but infantry branch wanted to keep it.

And since tanks were considered an infantry asset, they had the final say. This is actually why armoured branch had to call their tanks "combat cars" or something to pretend they weren't tanks.

The French had the same thing, meaning the cavalry had to engage in semantic chicanery. They didn't have tanks, oh no!, they had Automitrailleuse de Combat which are totes not tanks at all!

But why would infantry branch want to keep the 37mm? Well, its turns out the 37mm could fire a pretty decent canister round, which turned it into a massive shotgun, very good for shooting at enemy infantry at close range.

So there you have it......
Hubert Cumberdale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th February 2018, 11:11 AM   #248
TubbaBlubba
Knave of the Dudes
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,870
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Exactly.

Look up the death of Michael Wittmann to see what Fireflies could do to Tigers.
Is this the one Tiger that makes it out into the field, or the five back in the base that overheated, broke down and jammed? Give me an IS-2 any day.
__________________
"The president’s voracious sexual appetite is the elephant that the president rides around on each and every day while pretending that it doesn’t exist." - Bill O'Reilly et al., Killing Kennedy

Last edited by TubbaBlubba; 5th February 2018 at 11:13 AM.
TubbaBlubba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 01:55 PM   #249
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
@Hubert Cumberdale

Well, that someone wanted it, isn't always meaning that it was a good idea too.

E.g., the same infantry guys were also the ones who wanted lots of machineguns, including ones fixed to the hull, and THAT idea was downright counter-productive. It's not just that you're gonna have a problem aiming them at all, by moving the whole tank (unless you're Swedish, I guess) it's that imagine you're the guy trying to turn and aim the turret above, while the driver is wiggling the hull left and right to spray with the machineguns.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 04:40 PM   #250
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,691
I can imagine several ways to handle that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 05:15 PM   #251
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
Well, the rest of the world couldn't, which is why they got rid of that idea.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 05:24 PM   #252
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,691
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, the rest of the world couldn't, which is why they got rid of that idea.
I bet they could, but didn't like the tradeoffs, and anyway it was superseded by technological advances and the corresponding evolution of warfare.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 06:09 PM   #253
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That should have been Bulge of course.

What a film.

Who can ever forget those majestic scenes of German tanks advancing across the dusty, arid plains of the Ardennes.
The bizarre thing is that "Patton" was also filmed in Spain, but they found locations ,in Northern Spain,that actually resembled the Ardennes in the movie.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 06:15 PM   #254
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
This game might be fun:

https://www.gmtgames.com/p-615-tank-...rosshairs.aspx

The game takes place on the Eastern Front, but if it sell well they will bring out expansions for other theaters of war.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th February 2018, 07:04 PM   #255
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I bet they could, but didn't like the tradeoffs, and anyway it was superseded by technological advances and the corresponding evolution of warfare.
Well, I suppose you could nowadays, when you have computers controlling the turret. Back when it was just one guy who had no feedback from the driver about which way he's going to wiggle the hull next, while trying to aim at some tank 500m away, it was at least not a trivial task.

The hull suddenly turning a mere 1 degree, well, the sine of that is about 0.0175. Times 500m, that's going to throw your aim almost 9m (10 yards) off the mark. It's more than the length of a tank.

Hell, even at 200m, which is quite close, it's enough deviation that if you were aiming at the middle of an enemy tank from the side, the shot could still go completely right or left of it.

Add to that the fact that no tanks had lateral stabilization for the gun for the entirety of WW2.

The Americans were the only ones who had SOME vertical stabilization. Not enough to shoot on the move, mind you, but you could fire sooner after stopping than the Germans could. And as we know, who shoots first tends to win. So it was a very good thing, don't get me wrong.

But it only worked in the vertical direction. So if the chucklenuts downstairs started to wiggle the tank left and right, yeah, nothing's stabilizing your barrel from bouncing around sideways.

So,yeah, it's not an easy task at all.

Well, I'm sure eventually they would have come with good enough stabilizing systems -- as they did eventually IRL -- but by then the war was long over.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 6th February 2018 at 07:17 PM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 04:05 AM   #256
Hubert Cumberdale
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,072
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@Hubert Cumberdale

Well, that someone wanted it, isn't always meaning that it was a good idea too.

E.g., the same infantry guys were also the ones who wanted lots of machineguns, including ones fixed to the hull, and THAT idea was downright counter-productive. It's not just that you're gonna have a problem aiming them at all, by moving the whole tank (unless you're Swedish, I guess) it's that imagine you're the guy trying to turn and aim the turret above, while the driver is wiggling the hull left and right to spray with the machineguns.
"Lets put more MG's on the tank than there are crew members to fire them"
Hubert Cumberdale is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2018, 09:02 AM   #257
Mark F
Graduate Poster
 
Mark F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,542
Originally Posted by Hubert Cumberdale View Post
"Lets put more MG's on the tank than there are crew members to fire them"
Nobody ever said you need to use ALL of them at the same time.
__________________
So I'm going to tell you what the facts are, and the facts are the facts, but then we know the truth. That always overcomes facts.
Mark F is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2018, 02:47 AM   #258
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
Some of them would logically be more useful if you could use them at the same time if possible, though, and the fact that you really couldn't, makes one or the other superfluous. E.g., wiggling the tank to spray infantry with fixed machiengun fire -- never mind that you wouldn't hit much without controlling the elevation on it anyway -- makes no sense if it's at the expense of using the turret at the time. Which really it would have been. In ALMOST any conceivable situation, a coaxial MG up in the turret is going to be more useful, and firing canister shot out the turret gun adds even more use to it, than shutting those two off to wiggle the tank to shoot with machineguns welded fixed to the hull.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 9th February 2018 at 02:53 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2018, 08:40 AM   #259
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 14,792
Forgive me if this is common knowledge or answered upthread: my understanding is that using a central controller, a director, of the multiple guns on battleships greatly enhanced the effectiveness of their gunnery over having the individual turret crews operating independent. Given the technology now available, are there proposals/methods to do the equivalent for tanks: to use radio links and electronics to coordinate the guns on individual tanks such that they can be wirelessly ganged together to aim and fire coordinately?

I realize some of the technical problems: the location, height, absolute azimuth, and absolute elevation of each tank gun would need to be very accurately known and fed continuously into a highly secure radio link/computer system. I also realize that battleships typically focused on single large targets at a time, whereas tanks operate in a target rich environment with each tank engaging a single target. But might there not be some enhanced effectiveness if target selection by the individual tanks was controlled by a god-like eye in the sky, with targets being chosen by strategy-based prioritization and a continuous computer-assisted assessment of the best tank/tanks to pair with given targets at any given moment of the battle?

Would the biggest problem be the acquisition of sufficient information as to target location (which I understand can be constantly changing)? I certainly can imagine the difficulty of constantly identifying and inputting the location of 20 different enemy tanks all driving at 50 mph in an evasive manner.

What do the experts here think?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th February 2018, 03:58 PM   #260
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
Battleship Director Firing would be more like an Artillery Battery fire.

Tanks tend to operate in a self contained way even though they are part of a coordinated Squadron.
Tanks tends to use direct fire and at relatively short ranges (compared to artillery and naval gun fire)
I suppose they could all pick up the same target if it was 'painted' for them by a laser (for example) but each vehicle would still have to range the target and produce their own fire control solution.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 02:10 PM   #261
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,755
So, I was at a bookstore a few days ago flipping through a book about the battle for Hungary when I noticed a picture, somewhat blurred of a Hungarian medium tank the Turán 41M.

https://ww2-weapons.com/41m-turan-ii/

The blurry nature of the image caused me some confusion as it honestly looked as if the tank had 3 guns. The main gun, and was two smaller cannons on the bow and turret. This made no sense so looking it up it became more apparent that those guns were just machine guns, but ones with a rather substanial shroud. They almost look like water-cooled machine guns but that does seem right. Most sites discussing the tank do only mention that these were 7.92mm machine guns but no reason for their enormous barrels.

Odd. Does this show up in any other Ww2 era tanks?
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 02:26 PM   #262
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,377
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
The main gun, and was two smaller cannons on the bow and turret. This made no sense so looking it up it became more apparent that those guns were just machine guns, but ones with a rather substanial shroud. They almost look like water-cooled machine guns but that does seem right. Most sites discussing the tank do only mention that these were 7.92mm machine guns but no reason for their enormous barrels.

Odd. Does this show up in any other Ww2 era tanks?
Like this:

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/ww...MkI-II-III.php
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 02:55 PM   #263
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,543
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
So, I was at a bookstore a few days ago flipping through a book about the battle for Hungary when I noticed a picture, somewhat blurred of a Hungarian medium tank the Turán 41M.

https://ww2-weapons.com/41m-turan-ii/

The blurry nature of the image caused me some confusion as it honestly looked as if the tank had 3 guns. The main gun, and was two smaller cannons on the bow and turret. This made no sense so looking it up it became more apparent that those guns were just machine guns, but ones with a rather substanial shroud. They almost look like water-cooled machine guns but that does seem right. Most sites discussing the tank do only mention that these were 7.92mm machine guns but no reason for their enormous barrels.

Odd. Does this show up in any other Ww2 era tanks?
Water cooling, I'd guess.

The US M-3 did have two cannon, a 75mm in a hull sponson and a 37mm in a turret. Made it very tall.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 05:36 PM   #264
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
Look at pictures of the pre-war British Cruisers. Some of those had water cooled machine guns.
the A9 for example

Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 05:47 PM   #265
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,755
True, but the machine gun jacket and barrel opening look very different from those water cooled models or even the wide mouthed air cooled machine guns like the Brent’s and such. Just seems odd, especially for a midwar tank, even if Hungary wasn’t exactly a tech leader in the war.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th February 2018, 06:00 PM   #266
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
Bronco do a very good kit of the Turan.
Lots of detail and nice etched parts for the hull and turret spaced armour skirts.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/1076...-41-m-turan-ii
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th March 2018, 03:51 PM   #267
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 41,025
Efforts in Belarus at armor restoration and preservation"

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2018...-from-the-dead
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 02:05 AM   #268
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
I'm gonna resurrect this thread to submit another WTH: the Sturmtiger.

Now the WTH is not with the mechanical design or anything, but with the fact that such a vehicle was even designed, much less went into production, at the end of 1943.

It is basically a bunker-busting piece of artillery, which only makes sense if you're going to be on the offensive against such fortifications. Which isn't a bad idea per se. The Allies also designed their own bunker-busting tanks in preparation for storming the german fortifications. They didn't end up needing them, but they were designed.

The trouble is that by the end of 1943, Germany is going to be continuously on the defensive. And they know it. Not only that, but there aren't really many fortified lines to deal with even if they were to somehow magically regain the offensive momentum.

Germany at this point also is starting to feel a shortage of just about everything, from fuel for those vehicles to industry capacity for everything they want built. Investing resources and manpower into a purely offensive bunker-buster vehicle, and its own specialized ammo to complicate logistics, at this point must be balanced against what ELSE you could do with those resources.

And frankly, I think the Sturmtiger ranks pretty high in a list of top things they shouldn't have wasted their money on.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 02:20 AM   #269
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,094
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm gonna resurrect this thread to submit another WTH: the Sturmtiger.

Now the WTH is not with the mechanical design or anything, but with the fact that such a vehicle was even designed, much less went into production, at the end of 1943.

It is basically a bunker-busting piece of artillery, which only makes sense if you're going to be on the offensive against such fortifications. Which isn't a bad idea per se. The Allies also designed their own bunker-busting tanks in preparation for storming the german fortifications. They didn't end up needing them, but they were designed.

The trouble is that by the end of 1943, Germany is going to be continuously on the defensive. And they know it. Not only that, but there aren't really many fortified lines to deal with even if they were to somehow magically regain the offensive momentum.

Germany at this point also is starting to feel a shortage of just about everything, from fuel for those vehicles to industry capacity for everything they want built. Investing resources and manpower into a purely offensive bunker-buster vehicle, and its own specialized ammo to complicate logistics, at this point must be balanced against what ELSE you could do with those resources.

And frankly, I think the Sturmtiger ranks pretty high in a list of top things they shouldn't have wasted their money on.
Totally true.

I've seen the one in Munster.
Magnificent to see. Absolutely huge. It feels even larger than the King Tiger which stands right next to it (it isn't, but the boxy design makes it feel that way).

But so useless as a design.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 07:08 AM   #270
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,755
I have to wonder what they were expecting given the armor levels they put on the SturmTiger. I can see having some level of armor in the front to protect from small arms fire, but the range on that gigantic rocket launcher makes me wonder why it would be close enough to get hit by Anti-Tank shots. Do you really need 6" of sloped armor for this thing?
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 04:18 PM   #271
captain koolaid
Muse
 
captain koolaid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 537
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm gonna resurrect this thread to submit another WTH: the Sturmtiger.

Now the WTH is not with the mechanical design or anything, but with the fact that such a vehicle was even designed, much less went into production, at the end of 1943.

It is basically a bunker-busting piece of artillery, which only makes sense if you're going to be on the offensive against such fortifications. Which isn't a bad idea per se. The Allies also designed their own bunker-busting tanks in preparation for storming the german fortifications. They didn't end up needing them, but they were designed.

The trouble is that by the end of 1943, Germany is going to be continuously on the defensive. And they know it. Not only that, but there aren't really many fortified lines to deal with even if they were to somehow magically regain the offensive momentum.

Germany at this point also is starting to feel a shortage of just about everything, from fuel for those vehicles to industry capacity for everything they want built. Investing resources and manpower into a purely offensive bunker-buster vehicle, and its own specialized ammo to complicate logistics, at this point must be balanced against what ELSE you could do with those resources.

And frankly, I think the Sturmtiger ranks pretty high in a list of top things they shouldn't have wasted their money on.

They only made a few, ten I think, so the resources and production time expenditure was not too bad. Development time and effort though, probably not particularly wise. Considering the Luftwaffe could not contribute much by the time the Sturmtiger got into action, in late 1944 and the big rail guns were not practical, the vehicle ended up providing the Wehrmacht with something that packed punch. The army got some use out of them and the few instances they were actually employed (single vehicles, IIRC, others in the small independent companies broke down) they proved very effective against infantry, artillery and tank positions. The Sturmtiger proved itself a useful shock weapon, if nothing else. It was actually used in Warsaw and against the allied occupation of westwall bunkers, so it managed to achieve something it was actually designed for. But, your argument regarding it's value in regards time and resources is valid. Just pointing out that they didn't make many of them and the few that were used provided something the wehrmacht was short of at that stage of the war. So, bewildering production, but.... it did ok anyway.
__________________
"Bigfoot does not leave hair samples for us unless he is in our dimension to begin with, obviously. Once the hair is separated from the electrical field associated with the Bigfoot's free quanta energy loops, the hair becomes independant and remains in it's most stable dimension, which presumably is our dimension."(Historian)

Last edited by captain koolaid; 20th April 2018 at 04:21 PM.
captain koolaid is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 04:50 PM   #272
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 29,691
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I have to wonder what they were expecting given the armor levels they put on the SturmTiger. I can see having some level of armor in the front to protect from small arms fire, but the range on that gigantic rocket launcher makes me wonder why it would be close enough to get hit by Anti-Tank shots. Do you really need 6" of sloped armor for this thing?
Urban warfare. Smashing buildings quickly while surviving anti tank weapons at close range. Valuable in the defense of any German city, in the late phases of the war. Maybe not the most optimal use of resources at that point, I don't know. But hardly the folly HM seems to think.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 05:32 PM   #273
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,543
The Sturmtiger, which I think was discussed somewhere upthread or I wouldn't have heard of it, is one of many examples of Germany putting massive effort into technology when more production of the existing would have been better. They had very sophisticated tanks. The Allies just had lots more of them.

More production is, of course, difficult when your factories are being bombed into dust night and day. Germany, like Japan, ultimately had no chance against the industrial might and resources of the USA.

Oh, wait a minute: I MAY have run across the Sturmtiger on some naval history site due to people thinking its 38cm rocket launcher was the same as the 38cm naval gun. Not sure.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2018, 07:23 PM   #274
Reactor drone
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,157
They probably thought that a heavier version of the Sturmpanzer IV would be useful for city fighting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummb%C3%A4r
Reactor drone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 08:41 AM   #275
Doubt
Philosopher
 
Doubt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,767
A friend tried out a Strumtiger in the old "Combat Mission 2: Barbarossa to Berlin" computer game. Did a quick automatic scenario where it fired into an area where he could not really ID what sort of Russian force was out there. The immediate result of one round was a lot of smoke rising above the woods. He quit the scenario there and took a look at the Russian side and found a lot of burning half tracks spread out over a good sized area.
__________________
Doubt world tour locations:

Detroit, Mexico, Detroit, Mexico....
Repeat for all of 2017 except when on vacation.
Doubt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 08:49 AM   #276
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 14,211
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Oh, wait a minute: I MAY have run across the Sturmtiger on some naval history site due to people thinking its 38cm rocket launcher was the same as the 38cm naval gun. Not sure.
Well, it wasn't a naval gun, but it was a modified depth-charge thrower mortar. So I can see SOME naval connection there.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 12:21 PM   #277
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
A friend tried out a Strumtiger in the old "Combat Mission 2: Barbarossa to Berlin" computer game. Did a quick automatic scenario where it fired into an area where he could not really ID what sort of Russian force was out there. The immediate result of one round was a lot of smoke rising above the woods. He quit the scenario there and took a look at the Russian side and found a lot of burning half tracks spread out over a good sized area.

So not realistic then?
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 01:24 PM   #278
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,543
Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
A friend tried out a Strumtiger in the old "Combat Mission 2: Barbarossa to Berlin" computer game. Did a quick automatic scenario where it fired into an area where he could not really ID what sort of Russian force was out there. The immediate result of one round was a lot of smoke rising above the woods. He quit the scenario there and took a look at the Russian side and found a lot of burning half tracks spread out over a good sized area.
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
So not realistic then?
Wikipedia describes something of the sort actually happening at Remagen:
Quote:
During this action, one of the Sturmtigers in Sturmmörserkompanie 1001 near Düren and Euskirchen hit a group of stationary Shermans tanks in a village with a 380mm round, resulting in nearly all the Shermans being put out of action, and their crews killed or wounded.[
Note that the article also says it was too inaccurate to even hit the bridge so it would have to have been a very lucky shot.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 02:10 PM   #279
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 17,545
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Wikipedia describes something of the sort actually happening at Remagen:

Note that the article also says it was too inaccurate to even hit the bridge so it would have to have been a very lucky shot.
I would want to see more detail than a passing ref in Wikipedia. It was only a 200 pound he charge. I would think any damage to a tank other than a direct hit would not be major.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2018, 04:54 PM   #280
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 18,543
Yeah, there are references but not online ones. Sounds dubious.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:47 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.