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Tags Roland Emmerich , World War II history

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Old 26th July 2018, 03:40 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, ...

Since the Battle of Midway involved lots of airplanes, maybe George Lucas can be talked in installing a bunch of CGI airplane battles which looked remarkably like his 'Attack on the Death Star' as was done with his film Red Tails.
You should take a look at The Battle of Britain. It came out a couple years before Star Wars and was a major reference for that sequence.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:45 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
yes, for some reason, I really want to dislike Harrelson but he's god to great in almost everything he's done after Cheers.
I see the resemblance. And obviously he can get the accent down... Actually I can't recall ever hearing Nimktz speak.
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Old 26th July 2018, 03:49 PM   #43
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Nothing says historical accuracy like making sure Woody Harrelson can do a passable Chester Nimitz impression.
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Old 26th July 2018, 04:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Oh and when you have a "Keira Knightley" in a film, then (6) is a factor
That depends on what you count as "sexual gratification" , I would rate her more as "eye candy" especially as there's no romance going on (duh, Turing was gay).

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
How about the 2001 film "Enigma" which was based in the same setting, but in which the story and the characters were entirely fictional?

There was no mention of Turing or the Polish Cypher team, which is OK with me as there were a lot of people at Bletchley Park (one of my aunts worked there while Turing was there, and never met him).

I didn't think there were any glaring errors, other than the movie's depiction of the codebreakers intercepting and decoding information about the Katyn Forest massacre - I'm pretty sure that this did not happen.
I haven't seen that one so I can't comment on that. I don't think the absence of Turing would disturb me - as you say, a lot of people worked at Bletchley - and I would have to check how essential the Polish work before Bletchley was that not mentioning it would be a major plothole.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:12 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm not much of a movie-goer but I'll chip in my 2 cents. Of course, for (6) there's a whole separate genre of movies.

Movies about actual historical figures and actions better be accurate in the depiction of events and their main characters. I watched The Imitation Game last week on the telly and I found myself constantly browsing "did this really happen that way". And no, Turing didn't have a boss who tried to block him from building a computer, he didn't have to build it alone while his colleagues derided him, and there was no dramatic scene where he blocked getting info to a convoy on which the brother of one of his colleagues served, to name three things that particularly grated on me that were invented out of whole cloth to increase the drama. The fact that the real Joan Clark was plain looking and not as sexy as Keira Knightley is then the least of my bothers.

Likewise, if a movie has fictitious main protagonists, and pretensions that it depicts something that could have happened, I do care that they are believable characters and that the historical backdrop is accurate.
Yep, I have not seen Imitation Game, but that is another movie where there have apparently been some big liberties taken with the truth. This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't involve character assassination.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:14 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That depends on what you count as "sexual gratification" , I would rate her more as "eye candy" especially as there's no romance going on (duh, Turing was gay).
See, if the movie featured some steamy sex scenes between Engelbert Humperdink as Alan Turing and his girlfriend played by sexpot Keira Knightley then maybe it will be more popular and entertaining. But it would probably be at the expense of historical accuracy.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
No word on if Emmerich is going to present the Japanese side of the battle.
And you really have to do that to tell the story of Midway; one reason it turned out the way it did was that Nagamo (the Japanese in command of the Carrier Strike Force) made some really poor decisions. Leave the out and, the film becomes meaningless as history.
Let's assume that the whole film is shown from the perspective of, say, an individual pilot. There would be nothing wrong with making a film like that, and it wouldn't have to show any of the decision-making by the major figures. It doesn't need to imitate the style or structure of the earlier film, for example, and it would probably be superfluous if it did.

The Christopher Nolan movie of Dunkirk, for example, didn't bother even showing the Germans let alone their decision-making processes.

All Quiet on the Western Front showed only Germans, from what I remember (I watched the Richard Thomas and Ernest Borgnine version as a kid and was confused why it didn't have British troops in it. I know why it didn't now.)

Therefore it would be perfectly legitimate to have a movie on the Battle of Midway that didn't even use any Japanese actors at all, and didn't explain all the various aspects of the strategic decision-making etc...

I think that it should still avoid egregious factual errors - the pilots shouldn't be flying in F-18s and the main baddies should be the Japanese and not, say, the French or the British or the Galactic Empire.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:33 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You should take a look at The Battle of Britain. It came out a couple years before Star Wars and was a major reference for that sequence.
I remember someone (maybe Belz...) posted a video showing the trench scene compared with footage from the Dambusters. Lucas totally ripped it off.
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Old 26th July 2018, 05:46 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I remember someone (maybe Belz...) posted a video showing the trench scene compared with footage from the Dambusters. Lucas totally ripped it off.
I'll have to check that one out -- I've been working on the other comparison for some time.
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Old 26th July 2018, 06:01 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yep, I have not seen Imitation Game, but that is another movie where there have apparently been some big liberties taken with the truth. This wouldn't be so bad if it didn't involve character assassination.
Indeed. If you're unable as director to portray the exciting story of the code breaking dramatic on-screen, don't invent drama that didn't exist and that smears one of the characters.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
See, if the movie featured some steamy sex scenes between Engelbert Humperdink as Alan Turing and his girlfriend played by sexpot Keira Knightley then maybe it will be more popular and entertaining. But it would probably be at the expense of historical accuracy.
Seriously?! As to the highlighted, do you mean the British singer or the 19th C. German composer? As to Keira Knightley's sexpottiness, that was quite a bit less obvious than in, say, Pirates of the Caribbean.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Let's assume that the whole film is shown from the perspective of, say, an individual pilot. There would be nothing wrong with making a film like that, and it wouldn't have to show any of the decision-making by the major figures. It doesn't need to imitate the style or structure of the earlier film, for example, and it would probably be superfluous if it did.

The Christopher Nolan movie of Dunkirk, for example, didn't bother even showing the Germans let alone their decision-making processes.
I thought that movie quite impressive, as far as you can judge from viewing it on a small screen in the chair in front of you on a plane.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
All Quiet on the Western Front showed only Germans, from what I remember (I watched the Richard Thomas and Ernest Borgnine version as a kid and was confused why it didn't have British troops in it. I know why it didn't now.)

Therefore it would be perfectly legitimate to have a movie on the Battle of Midway that didn't even use any Japanese actors at all, and didn't explain all the various aspects of the strategic decision-making etc...

I think that it should still avoid egregious factual errors - the pilots shouldn't be flying in F-18s and the main baddies should be the Japanese and not, say, the French or the British or the Galactic Empire.
Paths of Glory also only depicted only one party, viz. the French. Incidentally, it also had French as the baddies.
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Old 26th July 2018, 06:40 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I remember someone (maybe Belz...) posted a video showing the trench scene compared with footage from the Dambusters. Lucas totally ripped it off.
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I'll have to check that one out -- I've been working on the other comparison for some time.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NMfBKrdErY

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Old 26th July 2018, 06:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Major Major View Post
So that one is Dambusters footage with Star Wars dialogue.

There is also another one with Star Wars footage and Dambusters dialogue, and then this split screen version:

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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 27th July 2018, 12:12 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I wonder if he’ll cover one of the more recent histories of the battle or just go with the discredited Fuchida account.
Yeah, I hope whoever is doing the script has read "Shattered Sword".
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Old 27th July 2018, 12:13 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nothing says historical accuracy like making sure Woody Harrelson can do a passable Chester Nimitz impression.
Harrleson is a good actor, no doubt, I just can't see him as Nimitz,
Now Ernie King is another matter.....
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Old 27th July 2018, 12:22 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Harrleson is a good actor, no doubt, I just can't see him as Nimitz,
Now Ernie King is another matter.....
That would be a pretty minor role in a film about Midway. Hell, even Nimitz should be a somewhat small one. Spruance and Fletcher, along with 2 or 3 squadron commanders should be the main characters (more than that would start to get confusing). And thats if the Japanese POV isn't told. But we'll see.
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Old 27th July 2018, 03:02 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
That would be a pretty minor role in a film about Midway. Hell, even Nimitz should be a somewhat small one. Spruance and Fletcher, along with 2 or 3 squadron commanders should be the main characters (more than that would start to get confusing). And thats if the Japanese POV isn't told. But we'll see.
Actually a more interesting movie would be if they went with the Japanese POV from beginning to end with some scenes from Gay floating around observing everything.
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Old 27th July 2018, 08:49 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Yeah, I hope whoever is doing the script has read "Shattered Sword".
I just wish I knew where my copy is!

Oh, and here's a mandatory link to Tully's website.
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Old 29th July 2018, 06:48 AM   #58
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I'd like to see the David Puttnam film "Memphis Belle" remade as it was originally intended (i.e. a bomber command crew).
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Old 29th July 2018, 06:50 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So that one is Dambusters footage with Star Wars dialogue.
There's also one comparing it with "633 squadron"

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Old 29th July 2018, 08:06 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TX50 View Post
There's also one comparing it with "633 squadron"

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Fixed the link.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th August 2018, 06:25 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Well, ...

Since the Battle of Midway involved lots of airplanes, maybe George Lucas can be talked in installing a bunch of CGI airplane battles which looked remarkably like his 'Attack on the Death Star' as was done with his film Red Tails.
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
You should take a look at The Battle of Britain. It came out a couple years before Star Wars and was a major reference for that sequence.
633 squadron]

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Old 11th August 2018, 08:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Thus we come to the age-old argument of whether films ought to be accurate at the expense of entertainment or entertaining at the expense of being accurate.

Please rank these in order of importance to you:

Movies ought to be:

1.) Entertaining
2.) Artistic
3.) Historically Accurate
4.) Morally serious
5.) Profitable
6.) Sexually gratifying

Admittedly different genres may have different demands.

I know that some posters on this forum will argue that entertaining is the sole criteria for movies. I think this is only true of certain films. I don't want to be "entertained" by a movie about the Holocaust, for example. I think that certain movies should be morally serious, but I don't really want to watch a buddy-cop movie in which the audience is told, "And that's why crime doesn't pay!" etc...

In the case of movies about actual historical figures I really do not like films when they take a historical figure and make them out to be completely different from how they were in real life. Despite the demands of entertainment, it will follow that audiences will genuinely believe that that is the way the person was. For example, the Siege of Jadotville made out that Conor Cruise O'Brien was completely evil and may have arranged for Dag Hammerskjold to be murdered. This is a complete fabrication, but people I know who have seen this film and know nothing more about the situation than this film believe that Conor Cruise O'Brien was a complete " **** ".
I don't have a problem with dramatic license as long as it doesn't get in the way of the story, and doesn't stray too far from the actual event.

One of the worst offenders was Pearl Harbor where the attack was almost secondary to the love story. My issue with that film was that there were enough real-life dramatic stories which included love stories that could have been compelling. The worst part was it was the story of Pearl Harbor as seen from the point of view of the US Army Air Corps.

Black Hawk Down was a little better, but Riddley Scott added elemets like Technicals (pickup trucks with machine guns) which were not a factor on the 10/3/1993 raid, and he consolidated multiple real soldiers into three or four characters. The second part I get, and it worked for the movie.

Anthropoid also took dramatic licence in a few places, but the movie is very good.

The best example of getting it as close as possible is Band of Brothers where they not only used Ambrose's book, but other books written by the men from E Company. They had the luxury of having an 12-hour series to tell the story, but each episode was a chapter focusing on actual events. Even the few places where dramatic license was taken are not egregious.

Das Boot is another standout even though it is fiction. The end is a slap in the face because you see the allied markings on the wings and you think "Oh, that's right, this is the German navy," which never really occurs to you through the rest of the film because you bond with the crew.
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Old 12th August 2018, 09:38 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I don't have a problem with dramatic license as long as it doesn't get in the way of the story, and doesn't stray too far from the actual event.

One of the worst offenders was Pearl Harbor where the attack was almost secondary to the love story. My issue with that film was that there were enough real-life dramatic stories which included love stories that could have been compelling. The worst part was it was the story of Pearl Harbor as seen from the point of view of the US Army Air Corps.

Black Hawk Down was a little better, but Riddley Scott added elemets like Technicals (pickup trucks with machine guns) which were not a factor on the 10/3/1993 raid, and he consolidated multiple real soldiers into three or four characters. The second part I get, and it worked for the movie.

Anthropoid also took dramatic licence in a few places, but the movie is very good.

The best example of getting it as close as possible is Band of Brothers where they not only used Ambrose's book, but other books written by the men from E Company. They had the luxury of having an 12-hour series to tell the story, but each episode was a chapter focusing on actual events. Even the few places where dramatic license was taken are not egregious.

Das Boot is another standout even though it is fiction. The end is a slap in the face because you see the allied markings on the wings and you think "Oh, that's right, this is the German navy," which never really occurs to you through the rest of the film because you bond with the crew.
The author of Das Boot said that all the incidents were real - they just happened to different vessels and crews.
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Old 12th August 2018, 10:09 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I don't have a problem with dramatic license as long as it doesn't get in the way of the story, and doesn't stray too far from the actual event.

One of the worst offenders was Pearl Harbor where the attack was almost secondary to the love story. My issue with that film was that there were enough real-life dramatic stories which included love stories that could have been compelling. The worst part was it was the story of Pearl Harbor as seen from the point of view of the US Army Air Corps.

Black Hawk Down was a little better, but Riddley Scott added elemets like Technicals (pickup trucks with machine guns) which were not a factor on the 10/3/1993 raid, and he consolidated multiple real soldiers into three or four characters. The second part I get, and it worked for the movie.

Anthropoid also took dramatic licence in a few places, but the movie is very good.

The best example of getting it as close as possible is Band of Brothers where they not only used Ambrose's book, but other books written by the men from E Company. They had the luxury of having an 12-hour series to tell the story, but each episode was a chapter focusing on actual events. Even the few places where dramatic license was taken are not egregious.

Das Boot is another standout even though it is fiction. The end is a slap in the face because you see the allied markings on the wings and you think "Oh, that's right, this is the German navy," which never really occurs to you through the rest of the film because you bond with the crew.
Battle of the River Plate is good. it's more or less a 'dramatised documentary' of the events.

My Uncle Martin was at the River Plate and was aboard one of the ships used in the film. You could say he played himself
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Old 15th August 2018, 11:49 AM   #65
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The words "Historical Accuracy" and "Roland Emmerich Movie" are contradictory...as anybody who has seen "The Patriot" and "Anonymous" can testify.
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Old 15th August 2018, 12:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
I don't have a problem with dramatic license as long as it doesn't get in the way of the story, and doesn't stray too far from the actual event.

One of the worst offenders was Pearl Harbor where the attack was almost secondary to the love story. My issue with that film was that there were enough real-life dramatic stories which included love stories that could have been compelling. The worst part was it was the story of Pearl Harbor as seen from the point of view of the US Army Air Corps.
What I couldn't stand about the movie Pearl Harbor, aside from the annoying love story that had clichés within clichés, was the bad physics. Absolutely incredibly in the bombing sequence at Pearl Harbor the bombs fall straight down!!!???!!

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Black Hawk Down was a little better, but Riddley Scott added elemets like Technicals (pickup trucks with machine guns) which were not a factor on the 10/3/1993 raid, and he consolidated multiple real soldiers into three or four characters. The second part I get, and it worked for the movie.
The movie, like the book fudged, the context and has such I didn't like either.

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Anthropoid also took dramatic licence in a few places, but the movie is very good.

The best example of getting it as close as possible is Band of Brothers where they not only used Ambrose's book, but other books written by the men from E Company. They had the luxury of having an 12-hour series to tell the story, but each episode was a chapter focusing on actual events. Even the few places where dramatic license was taken are not egregious.

Das Boot is another standout even though it is fiction. The end is a slap in the face because you see the allied markings on the wings and you think "Oh, that's right, this is the German navy," which never really occurs to you through the rest of the film because you bond with the crew.
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Old 15th August 2018, 04:04 PM   #67
dudalb
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In Anonymous, aside from the basic idiocy of the "Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare" crap, Emmerich also embraced the full press "Prince Tudor " crap,ie.Good Queen Bess has a illigitmate son, who she later had an affair with.
That tells you all you need to know about what to expect from Emmerich when it comes to historical accuracy.
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Old 1st September 2018, 03:58 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
In Anonymous, aside from the basic idiocy of the "Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare" crap, Emmerich also embraced the full press "Prince Tudor " crap,ie.Good Queen Bess has a illigitmate son, who she later had an affair with.
That tells you all you need to know about what to expect from Emmerich when it comes to historical accuracy.
If I remember the Prince Tudor crap accurately The story is that Good Queen Bess slept with Robert Dudley and had the Earl of Oxford then she slept with the Earl of Oxford and had with him the Earl of Southampton. Some variations of this utter crap have Bess having an affair with the Earl of Southampton!!!!

Whoever thought up this crap seemed to have had a fixation on incest.

This is of course complete and utter insanity. The idea that Queen Elizabeth I could have carried two children to term in secret defies belief when virtually everything in the court, especially the Queen's health was the subject of gossip and discussion, and that Queen Elizabeth I had very little real privacy at all surrounded by her servants and Ladies in waiting virtually all the time. Also given her very precarious position has an unmarried Female ruler at the time even an affair could have devastating political consequences and could hardly have been kept secret.

I frankly suspect that Queen Elizabeth I probably did indeed die a virgin.

Last edited by Pacal; 1st September 2018 at 03:59 PM.
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