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Old 23rd February 2020, 11:57 AM   #1161
Oystein
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Yes and as I said- there are far more attacks against them than any from them...
The vast majority of attacks against muslims are by ... muslims.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 01:10 PM   #1162
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
How true it is that almost nobody here has even attempted to have a rational discussion about the genuine evidence on this thread topic.
So does that mean you are ready to discuss the Rodan attack?

Why is rational limited to your fantasies?

How is it rational to base a multi-billion dollar operation dependent on the physical location of a nobody? How rational is it to surmise that he was drugged by a fast metabolizing hypnotic drug (which puts him out for a minute, lets them plant a suggestion, and then have him come out of the effects quickly)? None of these things you've proposed make any damn sense. Rodan makes far more sense. Keep in mind, if you say Rodan doesn't exist, that doesn't stop you putting forward drugs that don't exist either.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 01:49 PM   #1163
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“Wealth of Knockers” would be a decent band name. Like an all female post punk ensemble.
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Old 23rd February 2020, 09:45 PM   #1164
Dabop
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
The vast majority of attacks against muslims are by ... muslims.
Not in Australia, the extreme right whipping up antimuslim sentiment against them means most attacks are by whites here
Unless the other Muslims are telling the attacked Muslims to 'go home'- which seems rather unlikely
https://www.smh.com.au/national/doze...09-113tmk.html
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Old 23rd February 2020, 09:58 PM   #1165
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Not in Australia, the extreme right whipping up antimuslim sentiment against them means most attacks are by whites here
Unless the other Muslims are telling the attacked Muslims to 'go home'- which seems rather unlikely
https://www.smh.com.au/national/doze...09-113tmk.html
Did you notice this part of the article?

"in the three weeks since the police anti-terror raids"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_A...errorism_raids
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Old 23rd February 2020, 10:09 PM   #1166
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And is still going on today
Anyways I'm going to leave this derail now
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Old 25th February 2020, 04:35 AM   #1167
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Wealth of Knockers” would be a decent band name. Like an all female post punk ensemble.
A duchess, maybe?
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:28 AM   #1168
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
Ruby Gray wrote :
"Another anomaly in Cheryl Ryefield's 2002 testimony is that she claims traffic was blocked right back to below I-395. But again, this bridgetop video shows that to be untrue. Just about 3 minutes post impact, the lanes are almost clear of traffic, except for the few vehicles approaching the top of the bridge.

"So I suggest, again, that the open-door driverless van opposite the helipad, photographed by Steve Riskus, and also videoed by Dave Statter, within 4 - 8 minutes of impact, is indeed Cheryl Ryefield's. Just as she herself described it.

"Unless you can provide images of an alternative in a different location."

As usual, your attempt is a big fail.
Where is the gridlocked traffic back to I-395?
Where is the open driver's door on the van?
Where is the helipad next to this van?
Where is the image of Cheryl Ryefield running up the road?
She does not appear in this video taken from on top of the bridge.
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:24 AM   #1169
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For many years, there has been a misconception that CIT misrepresented the testimony of EDWARD PAIK, by filming him outside his mechanic's shop just west of the Navy Annex.

But this is nonsense.
Neither Edward nor Craig Ranke made any secret of the fact that Edward was INSIDE HIS SHOP when he saw the plane through his front window, flying very low across Columbia Pike, then diagonally across his shop and the Navy Annex.

Edward explained several times that the BODY and LEFT WING of the plane were overhead of his shop, and that he saw the underside of the RIGHT WING and ENGINE through the window, with the wing extending south of his shop, as far as Columbia Pike.

TRANSCRIPT

EDWARD PAIK to CRAIG RANKE
The PENTACON
Part 1

ALDO MARQUIS
10:32

Fourth (witness) is Edward Paik, an automobile mechanic that was up the street at his shop on Columbia Pike, just in front of the Sheraton Hotel.

Although Edward did not have a view of the Pentagon, he got a great view of the plane and places it as having crossed over to the north of Columbia Pike just before it passed over the Navy Annex.

This is where the flight path seriously diverges from the Official Story which requires the plane to remain on the south side of Columbia Pike at all times.

Here is what Edward had to say.


CRAIG RANKE Facing WEST.
11:12
Was it straight up Columbia Pike, or was it more towards I-395?

EDWARD PAIK
Ah this way, up here. (Points WEST from forecourt in front of his shop.)

CRAIG
So not straight up Columbia Pike. More over there …

EDWARD
Over there. Coming from this way. (Indicates diagonally across towards
Navy Annex.)
And ah at the time I inside the ah (Points towards his shop).
I just saw the ah big, looks like a big black wing.


CRAIG
11:36
Black wings?

EDWARD
Yeah. Kind of like the very lower. Looks like it almost hit my head. So OOPS!
(Ducks.)
I just see it headed this way. (Indicates diagonally towards the Navy Annex with both arms.)


CRAIG Now facing EAST.
11:45
How high was the plane when it was in front of you?

EDWARD
Ah, almost hit the, (points to roof next door) at the time I thought the airplane should hit at the roof, my roof, the building's roof. (Points north to his own roof).
Hit this roof. That much lower.

CRAIG
12:02
Oh, you thought it almost hit the roof over here?

EDWARD
Yeah (points to east) looks like it {UI}.

CRAIG
So it seemed like it almost hit these roofs over here?

EDWARD (pointing east)
Yeah.

CRAIG
12:15
So where you saw it fly, you saw it coming from …

EDWARD
Coming from there (pointing west-sou-west)
to this way (pointing east-nor-east)

and at that time feelings like it almost hit my roof. That much lower.
You know the airplane's go body side here (indicates towards shop with right hand),
and then the wing this much (pointing towards Columbia Pike),
and I saw the only one.
Kind of the ah body side over the building. (Points to his shop.)
Wing is this way. (Points to Columbia Pike.)


CRAIG
12:45
Oh, oh! So you're saying the body was over the building!

EDWARD
Yeah, this way. (Shows shop front.)

The {UI} over here. (Points to shop east of his.)

CRAIG
12:48
Oh, OK. So the wing(s) were over here.

EDWARD
12:54
Yeah, wing is here. (Points towards Columbia Pike.)

CRAIG
But everything was on this side of the road though. This side of Columbia Pike.

EDWARD
12:58
Yeah, Columbia Pike. So wing is (points to road),
body here (Sweeps arm across roofs),
and wing is, right wing is this way. (Points towards road.)

CRAIG
13:08
Maybe over the road.

EDWARD
Over the road.
That's the real direction.


CRAIG
13:14
Ah I see. And you're saying it was just barely over the buildings? That's how high it was?

EDWARD
Yeah.

CRAIG
13:21
OK, what I want you to do here is draw on these pictures the way that you saw the plane come. OK, here's these 2 pictures. Hold that for a second and I’ll hold this.
And so you can see there's your shop here, yeah that's your shop.
So if you can draw for me basically, you know if you saw the plane coming from here, or here. Basically where you saw the plane.

EDWARD
14:00
So you see like this? (Talks to camera operator.)
Columbia Pike is this road. Ah then here.
Airplane is across this street but later …
It go right there. (Points diagonally towards Navy Annex.)
Not like this side. (Points to road.)
That's why the direction (Indicates diagonally on picture.)

If I say like that (indicates East on map),
over the, cannot hit the {UI}.
This side … over the ah (points diagonally towards Navy Annex).

CRAIG
14:45
Well you know, it could have gone this way, or maybe turned, I don't know, but you saw the plane …

EDWARD
14:50
Yeah, this one, I saw the plane inside here (indicates his shop on picture),
and the airplane is coming (indicates diagonal path with pen).


CRAIG
OK. And um …

EDWARD
Next one here.

CRAIG
14:57
The next picture.

EDWARD
Next picture.

CRAIG
15:01
From what you gathered, I can see you couldn't see the Navy Annex …

EDWARD
So … (indicates path along south side of Navy Annex).
{Traffic noise.}
… Navy Annex building. {Noise.} … Navy Annex.
A loud noise. That is why I going out to look at the Navy Annex building. Is not.

CRAIG
15:49
It wasn't touched.

EDWARD
Yeah it wasn't touched. Then I keep running to the Pentagon side.
And then I saw the kind of ah the black and the orange colours, black smoke and the orange … {noise}. Oh my god.

CRAIG
16:10
OK so now back to the plane and your description of it.
You're saying that all you really noticed and remember are black wings.

EDWARD
16:18
Yeah. Black wing and one the kind of the ah …

CRAIG
Here let me – I have pictures of the plane I want to show you as well.

EDWARD
Are these the same as the airplane?

CRAIG
16:36
Well these are different.
This is the same style airplane that they say it was.

EDWARD
Yeah that's what I … but only one … ah black and grey. One ...

CRAIG 16:49
Black and grey?

EDWARD
Yeah black, and then just one … (indicating black wing and single
grey engine below.)
{UI}

CRAIG
16:55
You saw one engine like that, or two engines like that?

EDWARD
Yeah I saw the ah …

CRAIG
17:02
One engine. Because they saw other … they say there were other planes in the area Edward, that people saw. One like this one right here that was supposedly following the plane. Did you see more than one plane, or just …

EDWARD
No only one.

CRAIG
Only one. No other planes.

EDWARD
Only one.

CRAIG
17:16
OK because other people say they saw two. There are reports of a plane just like this C-130, with 2 engines, but that's not what you saw?

EDWARD {UI}
… how is big airplane? (points to 757.)
This one that much lower. The kind of like the whole ground vibration of that sounding.

CRAIG
17:36
So you didn't see more than one. Only one.

EDWARD
17:42
Looks like a SHOOOM! And then I … {UI} kind of the round one (engine) go this way.

CRAIG
So the wings were black underneath, and the colour that you say the plane looked grey.

EDWARD
Yeah the colour grey. Not black like fully black (touches Craig's black jacket).
Dark grey.

CRAIG
Dark grey.

EDWARD
Yeah … {UI}.
So wings are this way (indicates from his shop to road, and diagonally across neighbouring roof)
and the body side this way. (Indicates over his shop.)



18:20
ALDO MARQUIS

Edward's account is quite damaging to the official story.
If the plane were to pass on the south side of the Citgo station on its way to topple the lightpoles and damage the building, there is no way it could have crossed over Columbia Pike while travelling at over 500 mph.

His account contradicts the animation presented in the 9/11 Commission Report.
Let's take a look at that one more time.

While we fully understood the importance of Edward’s testimony when we first heard it, we knew it was important to see if his claim could be corroborated or refuted.
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:32 AM   #1170
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There were trees to the north of the Heliport Tower on 9/11.



Q.E.D.
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:33 AM   #1171
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Who cares? We know where the plane ended up.

In the Pentagon.

CIT is immaterial. It changes nothing. It proves nothing.
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:54 AM   #1172
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Old 26th February 2020, 02:59 AM   #1173
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Establishing bank angles from photographs of eyewitnesses giving testimony goes so far beyond scraping the bottom of the barrel that I think you just hit a coal seam.

Dave
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Old 26th February 2020, 03:16 AM   #1174
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Old 26th February 2020, 03:20 AM   #1175
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Establishing bank angles from photographs of eyewitnesses giving testimony goes so far beyond scraping the bottom of the barrel that I think you just hit a coal seam.

Dave
What these images ESTABLISH, is that eyewitnesses saw the plane BANKING RIGHT towards the Pentagon after it passed the Navy Annex.

Nobody is suggesting that these are precise measurements, but they clearly support a SIGNIFICANT RIGHT BANK.

Your opinion would be very different, would it not, if you could find a single eyewitness who would give a similar demonstration of a LEFT BANK?
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Old 26th February 2020, 03:41 AM   #1176
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What these images ESTABLISH, is that eyewitnesses saw the plane BANKING RIGHT towards the Pentagon after it passed the Navy Annex.
What the eyewitess testimony also establishes is that eyewitnesses saw the plane HITTING THE PENTAGON. Don't forget that rather crucial fact. Your whole argument rests on the assumption that the eyewitnesses are 100% reliable on establishing the speed, location and bank angle of the plane and 0% reliable on establishing whether or not it hit the Pentagon, whereas in reality the opposite is somewhat nearer the mark.

Dave
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:01 AM   #1177
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
For many years, there has been a misconception that CIT misrepresented the testimony of EDWARD PAIK, by filming him outside his mechanic's shop just west of the Navy Annex.
I don't call it misrepresentation. I call it good salesmanship. Wouldn't do to let us all see what kind of a view he would have of an aeroplane that would be, at the very minimum, 20 metres above, would it now?
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:44 AM   #1178
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The building on the left, I believe, is the establishment where Mr Paik was working and to the right is the Navy Annex.



The Navy Annex is about 18.5 metres high and those garage openings are about 3 metres high by my estimation. Mr Paik is, maybe, 1.7 metres tall. Mr Paik was inside and he saw a wing. The front of the auto shop is set back about 20 metres from the north side of Columbia Pike. Is that a fair summary?
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Last edited by Robin; 26th February 2020 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 26th February 2020, 07:21 AM   #1179
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
That was part of the problem for most of the CIT witnesses. They had no references available to estimate distance.
This^ will never be emphasized enough. Ruby misses this point every time, and blindly assigns infallibility to the estimation of distance by witnesses, yet it's the most unreliable metric. When a witness says where the plane was, it's most likely that it was farther, because of lack of references, and because people are not used to object this size.

Same about the banking. The one person who judged it accurately was Hemphill due to his exceptionally good point of view.

I've been insisting on it, I even showed a picture of a plane and asked what distance it was, to show the point of how difficult it is to determine, and how unused we are to estimating distances with objects that big.
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Old 26th February 2020, 11:54 AM   #1180
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What these images ESTABLISH, is that eyewitnesses saw the plane BANKING RIGHT towards the Pentagon after it passed the Navy Annex.
What nonsense! There is no end to it except when the aircraft impacted the Pentagon just like all of these witnesses said along with most of the others. That's the only thing they all agree on...

If the aircraft was banking even as much as the shallowest one indicated every witness everywhere would have mentioned this, especially the ones at the Citgo Station. The aircraft was very close to the ground and the low wing would have been virtually dragging the ground

You don't suppose..... These grave diggers from Arlington National Cemetery were among the last of the "witnesses" duped. This was AFTER Ranke and Co. realized they had an impossible turn to explain. But, one of them just happened to have a model aircraft in his desk and contrary to all of the other witnesses previous to this they indicated the aircraft was banking right. What Borger indicated was not even close to this.

Again, ALL of the witnesses would have noted a bank angle even close to the shallowest one noted here because the aircraft was so close to the ground. The low wing would have clipped highway signs along it's path and would have scared the bejesus out of everyone who saw it. BIG FAIL!
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:08 PM   #1181
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It needs to be pointed out that if the plan was to fake a crash flying a plane that big that low and then banking it would have caused the plane to hit the Pentagon anyway...or the ground...or the Naval Annex( which lost an antenna on the roof with AA77 hit it).
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:21 PM   #1182
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
CRAIG
17:16
OK because other people say they saw two. There are reports of a plane just like this C-130, with 2 engines, but that's not what you saw?
No such variants, a dual engine C-130, exists. They are all quad props.

He is leading his witness to a conclusion that does not exist.
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Old 26th February 2020, 01:45 PM   #1183
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post


Hahahahahahahahahahzhahahahahahshshahshahaha
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:40 PM   #1184
waypastvne
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post



Q.E.D.
That particular tree is 350' north of the control tower. As you can see it blocks a significant portion of his view in that direction.

This tree is also 350' away from the tower. It also blocks a significant portion of he's view in that direction.





It blocks his view of the Navel Annex, the Citgo gas station and your Fantasy Flight Path, wether you like it or not. For the real flight path, he would of had a clear view all the way.

Q.E.D.mate.
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Old 26th February 2020, 06:44 PM   #1185
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The building on the left, I believe, is the establishment where Mr Paik was working and to the right is the Navy Annex.



The Navy Annex is about 18.5 metres high and those garage openings are about 3 metres high by my estimation. Mr Paik is, maybe, 1.7 metres tall. Mr Paik was inside and he saw a wing. The front of the auto shop is set back about 20 metres from the north side of Columbia Pike. Is that a fair summary?
Paik's estimate of the height of the aircraft must be wrong, it it was anywhere close to the roof of the adjacent building then it would slam straight into the Navy Annex. So it must be, at the bare minimum, about 20 metres AGL.

Here is a schematic showing that if Paik is reasonably close to the garage opening (I am assuming he was in one of those garages) then the closest that the centre line of the aircraft could possible be would be above the north kerb of the Columbia Pike.



If you use the angle Paik estimated with respect to the Pike and start with the aircraft at this position, you get the aircraft passing just south of Citgo:



And the higher the aircraft (and/or the further inside that Paik is) the closer this is to the official path.
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Last edited by Robin; 26th February 2020 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 26th February 2020, 09:17 PM   #1186
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Sean Boger from the citgo gas station.



Just to rub it in a little more.
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Old 26th February 2020, 09:30 PM   #1187
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
And the higher the aircraft (and/or the further inside that Paik is) the closer this is to the official path damage path.
FTFY There is no official path. That is truther terminology. There is the flight path that the aircraft actually flew due to the damage caused, the FDR flight path, and there is the impact angle into the building, but there is no official path.

The other part of your statement is true. The aircraft did fly South of the position Paik estimated it flew. The same for Terry Morin. It was further South away from the building as evidenced by his mistaking it for a 737 vice a 757, which is larger. All of this is simply due to the lack of a distance reference to compare.
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Old 26th February 2020, 10:17 PM   #1188
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
Where is the gridlocked traffic back to I-395?
You do realise the traffic is moving forward even as the video is being filmed. When the video started, the car it was being filmed from was right beside this sign.



It was 180' north of the 395 overpass and right beside the white van. Over the next 2 minuets it moved 120' forward. That's when the car stopped and he got out.

It probably also moved forward some before the video even started.


Quote:
Where is the open driver's door on the van?
She never said she left the door open.


Quote:
Where is the helipad next to this van?
She never said she was next to the helipad.


Quote:
Where is the image of Cheryl Ryefield running up the road?
If she was next to the helipad why would she run north up the road to get a better view? That's just silly.

She said she ran forward to a grassy spot to see what was going on.


Quote:
She does not appear in this video taken from on top of the bridge.
Well she obviously ran to the grassy spot before the video started. That is why the van is empty.... Silly.

You say this video starts about 3 min post impact. Can you back that up?

https://vault.fbi.gov/911-videos?sel...96016489ece636
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:25 AM   #1189
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post

And the higher the aircraft (and/or the further inside that Paik is) the closer this is to the official path.
Paik was inside the office, this video and link will give you better details and a view from inside the office.

https://911reports.wordpress.com/201...s-cit-methods/


YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 27th February 2020, 09:39 AM   #1190
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post

Edward's account is quite damaging to the official story.

Edward's account would have been even more damaging to AA77's port wing.

In this flight path drawn by Paik, the port wing is passing through the Sheraton Hotel. You know, the Hotel from where this photo was taken.

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Old 27th February 2020, 09:55 AM   #1191
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Originally Posted by waypastvne View Post
...Well she obviously ran to the grassy spot before the video started. That is why the van is empty.... Silly...
Grassy spot or grassy knoll? Checkmate.
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Old 27th February 2020, 12:16 PM   #1192
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post
What these images ESTABLISH, is that eyewitnesses saw the plane BANKING RIGHT towards the Pentagon after it passed the Navy Annex.

Nobody is suggesting that these are precise measurements, but they clearly support a SIGNIFICANT RIGHT BANK.

Your opinion would be very different, would it not, if you could find a single eyewitness who would give a similar demonstration of a LEFT BANK?
The FDR defines the actual flight path, your failed claims define the bogus flight path based on paranoia and ignorance.

Your fantasy involves thousands of "deep state operatives" instead of the 19 failed followers of UBL responsible for the murder of thousands.

Sad delusion based on paranoia you have
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Old 27th February 2020, 01:01 PM   #1193
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
If you use the angle Paik estimated with respect to the Pike and start with the aircraft at this position, you get the aircraft passing just south of Citgo:

https://robinsrevision.files.wordpre...e-8.png?w=1024
Remember that rubygray defends a curved line.

However, she has had no shame in placing one of the points of the curve behind Paik's shop, just to reduce the curvature.
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Old 27th February 2020, 06:41 PM   #1194
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Remember that rubygray defends a curved line.
I know she is. I am just pointing out that if the aircraft is anywhere that Paik can see it and its heading is more or less as Paik estimates, then he is describing something very close to the damage path.

If it passes anywhere that he can see it and it is going to detour north of Citgo then it needs to be crossing the pike at a larger angle.

Even then I doubt it is possible.
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Old 28th February 2020, 12:41 AM   #1195
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
I know she is. I am just pointing out that if the aircraft is anywhere that Paik can see it and its heading is more or less as Paik estimates, then he is describing something very close to the damage path.

If it passes anywhere that he can see it and it is going to detour north of Citgo then it needs to be crossing the pike at a larger angle.

Even then I doubt it is possible.
And Paik would see nothing but the underside of a steeply-banked plane.
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Old 28th February 2020, 04:14 PM   #1196
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Originally Posted by rubygray View Post

The pictures shows the plane hardly banking at all, and Riskus says it looks exactly like what he saw, so that settles that question, right?
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