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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , donald trump , lying charges , Russia conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump-Russia connections , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 19th February 2018, 02:09 AM   #2201
thaiboxerken
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Also, Russia was planning on disrupting our election process to keep Hillary from becoming POTUS. Trump was a bonus prize, a very valuable prize for Putin.
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:37 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post

Besides, unsigned is not the same as anonymous. If you look elsewhere on the Guardian website you'll see, for example, that David Mckie is clearly identified as the chief leader writer.
The article cited was explicitly labelled as "editorial" meaning it was expressing the view of the editor. I believe Paul Webster has taken that role now.
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Old 19th February 2018, 03:13 AM   #2203
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
The article cited was explicitly labelled as "editorial" meaning it was expressing the view of the editor. I believe Paul Webster has taken that role now.
Well, "editorial" isn't strictly descriptive, as they're expressing the views of the paper, although that is, of course, set by the editor. The actual author is unlikely to be the editor, for the most part. The chief leader writer will be the most common author, with other authors penning editorials if they fall within their particular areas of expertise. And the views expressed in editorials will usually have been formed from the input of several different journalists.

So the truth is that editorials are not directly attributed because they are not expressing the opinions of any one person but instead the paper itself. And every author who is a leader writer is identified on the website including, as shown above, the chief leader writer.

Unquestionably not the same as the website the Empress linked to, no matter how much she'd like to spin it.
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Old 19th February 2018, 03:39 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
^ Am I the only person who thinks "Squeegee Beckenheim" complains too much?
Funny. I was thinking the same thing about you.

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So if you think that the fact that I'm using a screen name, as is a common convention on message boards* and which contradicts nothing about me or how I present myself, is equivalent to the fact that they are posting anonymously, as is highly unusual for journalists and which directly contradicts what they claim their core values to be, then you're very much mistaken.
You're talking to someone who is intimidated by the number of posts I make in a week or month.

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
^ What he means is that many of the sites I quote are on the clownish little black lists that add everyone who has some impact and doesn't play the mighty Wurlitzer propaganda tune to call them Russian propaganda. It's a good idea to go study these lists as it is a batch of honour to be on them. Like the nonsense in his sig or "proPornOt".
No, what he means is that every source you use is oddly Russian.

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
As I said ... pseudo-skeptics and being mocked ...
Wow, you can't even admit to making a tiny mistake. How insecure must you be?
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Old 19th February 2018, 03:59 AM   #2205
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
As pure an example of whataboutism as one is likely to ever see.

Sir, with your permission, I would like to add that post to the Wikipedia article on whataboutism as a great example of fallacious argument.

Do I have that permission?
Military conflict is not the solution to every political and economic problem as Netanyahu and his pal Trump seem to think. How about a bit of subtlety?
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:04 AM   #2206
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Military conflict is not the solution to every political and economic problem as Netanyahu and his pal Trump seem to think. How about a bit of subtlety?
You mean Stealth-bombers, right?
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Old 19th February 2018, 05:54 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Unquestionably not the same as the website the Empress linked to, no matter how much she'd like to spin it.

Your anonymous clown chain is solely of your own making.
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:13 AM   #2208
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Military conflict is not the solution to every political and economic problem as Netanyahu and his pal Trump seem to think. How about a bit of subtlety?
As pure an example of a non sequitur as one is likely to ever see.

Sir, with your permission, I would like to add that post to the Wikipedia article on non sequitur as a great example of this type of fallacious argument.

Do I have that permission?
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:13 AM   #2209
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Also, Russia was planning on disrupting our election process to keep Hillary from becoming POTUS. Trump was a bonus prize, a very valuable prize for Putin.
I don't know long term is it's a bonus. They may have wanted to discredit Clinton's election to weaken her as president but not have Trump. There's no strategic upside to Trump. The Russians must have understood that he was stupid, disloyal, and would have no gratitude for their help. His potential mental illness can't have gone unnoticed by them either. You wouldn't want to have that guy in control of a military superpower.
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:30 AM   #2210
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I don't know long term is it's a bonus. They may have wanted to discredit Clinton's election to weaken her as president but not have Trump. There's no strategic upside to Trump. The Russians must have understood that he was stupid, disloyal, and would have no gratitude for their help. His potential mental illness can't have gone unnoticed by them either. You wouldn't want to have that guy in control of a military superpower.
There is no claim by the DoJ that this group worked for the Kremlin right? If so, their actions cannot be assumed to be representative of Russian government interest.
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:48 AM   #2211
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I don't know long term is it's a bonus. They may have wanted to discredit Clinton's election to weaken her as president but not have Trump. There's no strategic upside to Trump. The Russians must have understood that he was stupid, disloyal, and would have no gratitude for their help. His potential mental illness can't have gone unnoticed by them either. You wouldn't want to have that guy in control of a military superpower.
He hasn't imposed the voted for sanctions yet, just saying.
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:57 AM   #2212
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is no claim by the DoJ that this group worked for the Kremlin right? If so, their actions cannot be assumed to be representative of Russian government interest.
Oh that's adorable
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:58 AM   #2213
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Oh that's adorable
Otherwise it would be picking and choosing what parts of the DoJ statement you believe in.
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Old 19th February 2018, 09:45 AM   #2214
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Your anonymous clown chain is solely of your own making.
I don't even know what this is supposed to be referring to, let alone what it's supposed to mean.
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Old 19th February 2018, 09:53 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's no strategic upside to Trump.
No strategic advantage to having someone easily manipulable and susceptible to blackmail in a position of power while beholden to you (because of the Russian source of his money) and in your pocket (because of the blackmail material)? I can scarcely think of any situation that could be more advantageous to Putin.

Quote:
The Russians must have understood that he was stupid, disloyal, and would have no gratitude for their help.
And yet...no sanctions against Russia. Even now Trump & the White House are admitting that there was Russian interference in the election, they're not talking about imposing the sanctions they should have imposed a while ago. Furthermore, there is reportedly still absolutely no push to defend the 2018 elections, even as they're now admitting that they're currently under attack.

Whether or not Trump is actively working for Putin, he's certainly done things (or failed to do things) as president which line up with what Putin would want, and which are against the interests of the American people and the will of the US government and security services. I'm not sure what negatives Putin would see.
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Old 19th February 2018, 09:57 AM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No strategic advantage to having someone easily manipulable and susceptible to blackmail in a position of power while beholden to you (because of the Russian source of his money) and in your pocket (because of the blackmail material)? I can scarcely think of any situation that could be more advantageous to Putin.



And yet...no sanctions against Russia. Even now Trump & the White House are admitting that there was Russian interference in the election, they're not talking about imposing the sanctions they should have imposed a while ago. Furthermore, there is reportedly still absolutely no push to defend the 2018 elections, even as they're now admitting that they're currently under attack.

Whether or not Trump is actively working for Putin, he's certainly done things (or failed to do things) as president which line up with what Putin would want, and which are against the interests of the American people and the will of the US government and security services. I'm not sure what negatives Putin would see.
They determined that the threat of sanctions accomplished the objectives of the law.
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:15 AM   #2217
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They determined that the threat of sanctions accomplished the objectives of the law.
The objective of the law was to prevent Russian interference in the 2018 elections. Do you think that Trump is right that that objective has been achieved? How do you think that has happened, and why do you think that all the US security chiefs are lying about it?
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:37 AM   #2218
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No strategic advantage to having someone easily manipulable and susceptible to blackmail in a position of power while beholden to you (because of the Russian source of his money) and in your pocket (because of the blackmail material)? I can scarcely think of any situation that could be more advantageous to Putin.



And yet...no sanctions against Russia. Even now Trump & the White House are admitting that there was Russian interference in the election, they're not talking about imposing the sanctions they should have imposed a while ago. Furthermore, there is reportedly still absolutely no push to defend the 2018 elections, even as they're now admitting that they're currently under attack.

Whether or not Trump is actively working for Putin, he's certainly done things (or failed to do things) as president which line up with what Putin would want, and which are against the interests of the American people and the will of the US government and security services. I'm not sure what negatives Putin would see.
Yup, and those who insist that it's all a conspiracy theory can call it what they want, but they haven't come up with a credible explanation for why Trump refuses to say or do anything against Putin. IMO, the more Trump refuses to do that, the more plausible the blackmail hypothesis becomes.

Which reminds me: How many of my fellow conspiracy theorists think that Putin probably had Trump Enterprise servers hacked, too?
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:44 AM   #2219
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The objective of the law was to prevent Russian interference in the 2018 elections. Do you think that Trump is right that that objective has been achieved? How do you think that has happened, and why do you think that all the US security chiefs are lying about it?
I have no opinion on it.
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Old 19th February 2018, 10:47 AM   #2220
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
And yet...no sanctions against Russia. Even now Trump & the White House are admitting that there was Russian interference in the election, they're not talking about imposing the sanctions they should have imposed a while ago.
This is Trump's pro quo to Putin's quid. Once the sanctions were announced, Flynn was in contact with the Russians to assure them they wouldn't be enforced. Putin's investment paid off.
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Old 19th February 2018, 11:00 AM   #2221
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no opinion on it.
Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.
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Old 19th February 2018, 11:20 AM   #2222
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It's being reported that a classified NSA report says that Putin's top aides had to approve of - if not directly oversee - the Russian election interference
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Old 19th February 2018, 11:22 AM   #2223
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They determined that the threat of sanctions accomplished the objectives of the law.
They CLAIMED that. What evidence do you have that they actually DETERMINED it?
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Old 19th February 2018, 12:24 PM   #2224
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
They CLAIMED that. What evidence do you have that they actually DETERMINED it?
That is my point. We don't have the evidence to determine if that was a genuine or false claim.
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Old 19th February 2018, 12:55 PM   #2225
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Interesting article that discusses the Facebook response to the indictment.

Quote:
I get the urge to beat up Facebook. They’ve got a lot to pay for in permitting Russia to abuse their platform. But (I suspect entirely because Trump used Goldman’s [facebook VP] tweet to try to exonerate himself) in doing so, NYT has missed Goldman’s larger point, which isn’t an apology at all. Indeed, Goldman was saying that the problem is far bigger than what Mueller lays out in the indictment, and that our continued divisions are a vulnerability Russia continues to exploit.
https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/02/1...t-indictments/
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:02 PM   #2226
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Hilarious follow-up to b's assessment of the Troll Factory Indictment: he caught himself some Bernie Bots!

Internet Marketing - Why Is This Smelly Fish Priceless?

btw, according to the CCC lecture I posted as response to the shallow data visualization promo some weeks ago, the price of 50,000 twitter followers on the darknet is under $100, and they even include real people (hacked, abandoned accounts). Just to put this into perspective.
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:14 PM   #2227
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
That is my point. We don't have the evidence to determine if that was a genuine or false claim.
No, you specifically said they had "Determined" that. If the evidence for that Determination is lacking, it should be amended to my correction: They Claimed that.
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:14 PM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Is this interference referring to the Facebook Troll Thirteen? or is it referring to some other interference, which might include hacking?

The Facebook Troll Thirteen was not to KGB standards, and most of it was done AFTER the election.
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:16 PM   #2229
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Originally Posted by Cabbage View Post
No, you specifically said they had "Determined" that. If the evidence for that Determination is lacking, it should be amended to my correction: They Claimed that.
Sorry I wasn't clear. Yes they issued a statement that they determined that.
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:18 PM   #2230
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And since Secretary of State Tillerson himself acknowledges that Russians are already meddling in the 2018 election (and since the sanctions are intended to counter said meddling), I think we have clear evidence that it was MERELY a claim...The actual evidence indicates that it has not been a deterrent--Tillerson himself acknowledges this:

https://www.npr.org/2018/02/08/58414...-2018-midterms
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Old 19th February 2018, 02:50 PM   #2231
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
...
The Facebook Troll Thirteen was not to KGB standards, and most of it was done AFTER the election.
Don't be fooled by the distraction that electing Trump was the one and only goal. Notice we now have Trump trying to ease sanctions, refusing to implement sanctions, making choices about military intervention in Syria, about arming Ukraine, then there's Nikki Haley's actions in the UN ... Trump is conspicuously acting on behalf of the Russians. No doubt the troll factory continues to keep the GOP in control of Congress, to gin up support for Trump to keep him from being impeached, to distract from his pro-Russian actions, and to manipulate Trump in general.

I'd wager the Russians are still injecting fake news into the right wing social media sphere with the additional goal of getting Fox News to adopt the story. That's like a direct bug in Trump's ear.
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Old 19th February 2018, 03:15 PM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Is this interference referring to the Facebook Troll Thirteen? or is it referring to some other interference, which might include hacking?

The Facebook Troll Thirteen was not to KGB standards, and most of it was done AFTER the election.
My, you must know a lot about KGB standards. What is your background that justifies such confidence?
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:20 PM   #2233
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
No strategic advantage to having someone easily manipulable and susceptible to blackmail in a position of power while beholden to you (because of the Russian source of his money) and in your pocket (because of the blackmail material)? I can scarcely think of any situation that could be more advantageous to Putin.



And yet...no sanctions against Russia. Even now Trump & the White House are admitting that there was Russian interference in the election, they're not talking about imposing the sanctions they should have imposed a while ago. Furthermore, there is reportedly still absolutely no push to defend the 2018 elections, even as they're now admitting that they're currently under attack.

Whether or not Trump is actively working for Putin, he's certainly done things (or failed to do things) as president which line up with what Putin would want, and which are against the interests of the American people and the will of the US government and security services. I'm not sure what negatives Putin would see.
There's no sanctions now. The Russians must have figured that the petulant toddler would lose interest in them eventually. The American electorate understood this. That's why he lost the popular vote. There is no strategic upside for the Russians to put a mentally ill idiot in charge of our nuclear arsenal.
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:32 PM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
There's no sanctions now.
Exactly.

Quote:
The Russians must have figured that the petulant toddler would lose interest in them eventually.
Again, let's not forget that if he is under their thrall it's for two reasons - they have blackmail on him, and they are the source of his money. Do you really think that Trump is going to "lose interest" in people who could both embarrass him and make him destitute? Or is he the kind of man who is concerned about his public image and who enjoys being rich?

Quote:
There is no strategic upside for the Russians to put a mentally ill idiot in charge of our nuclear arsenal.
There is if they control him.
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Old 19th February 2018, 04:43 PM   #2235
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
... There is no strategic upside for the Russians to put a mentally ill idiot in charge of our nuclear arsenal.
Seriously?

I can think of a few reasons even if Putin didn't have Trump over a financial barrel, starting with it simply weakens the US. Clinton would have strengthened the country, internationally at least.
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Old 19th February 2018, 05:31 PM   #2236
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I don't know long term is it's a bonus. They may have wanted to discredit Clinton's election to weaken her as president but not have Trump. There's no strategic upside to Trump. The Russians must have understood that he was stupid, disloyal, and would have no gratitude for their help. His potential mental illness can't have gone unnoticed by them either. You wouldn't want to have that guy in control of a military superpower.
He has certainly reduced the US's standing in the world, which makes it easier for Russia to continue its expansionism.
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Old 19th February 2018, 06:28 PM   #2237
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Exactly.



Again, let's not forget that if he is under their thrall it's for two reasons - they have blackmail on him, and they are the source of his money. Do you really think that Trump is going to "lose interest" in people who could both embarrass him and make him destitute? Or is he the kind of man who is concerned about his public image and who enjoys being rich?



There is if they control him.
With due respect, we don't yet know whether they have blackmail on Trump. Nor did we know the extent of the money he makes off Russians, though it appears significant.
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Old 19th February 2018, 07:30 PM   #2238
Skeptic Ginger
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New talking point by a Trumpundit tonight on CNN: the reason Trump isn't saying anything bad about Putin or Russia is Trump's playing a "deep game" with N Korea.



I wonder which press agent made that one up?
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Old 19th February 2018, 08:37 PM   #2239
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Facebook Troll Thirteen was not to KGB standards.
The KGB was dissolved in 1991. Facebook was launched in 2004. The current director of the SVR (Russian foreign intelligence ), Sergei Naryshkin, is also chairman of the board of Russia One Television and has media experience.
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Old 20th February 2018, 01:27 AM   #2240
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
With due respect, we don't yet know whether they have blackmail on Trump.
I didn't claim we did.

Quote:
Nor did we know the extent of the money he makes off Russians, though it appears significant.
Bearing in mind that two primary sources for that claim are Jared Kushner and Donald Trump Jr. from before Trump ran, I'd say the probability that it's true is fairly high.
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