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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 29th May 2020, 09:36 AM   #1001
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yep. Pretty much. Japan's main outbreaks were, surprise surprise, in Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya and Fukuoka - the big cities and surrounding areas. Maybe the only one that was a little bit unusual was Hokkaido where the infections seemed to be pretty spread out.

Anyway, I have seen it argued by a lot of people that South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan (!) don't count because of small sizes, island nations, easy to control, etc... unlike Belgium (!), San Marino (!), Italy, UK (!), Sweden etc...
I'm pretty sure one of the most important, if not the most important, reasons why the countries you mentioned there did so very well has to do with the fact that they had direct experience to the previous outbreak of SARS.

For example i read that, when some epidemiologist in Hong Kong explained why the virus had not been able to go into any elderly care home was to a large degree because every single elderly care home had a trained and educated individual who was responsible for maintaining preparedness for emergency outbreaks, especially for outbreaks of SARS's like viruses. I can only assume that they had prepared just as well in other parts of society.

Meanwhile in Sweden some care homes were "surprised" when visitation bans became mandatory (some had enacted them voluntarily) even though the virus has been in the news for a long time.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:47 AM   #1002
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm pretty sure one of the most important, if not the most important, reasons why the countries you mentioned there did so very well has to do with the fact that they had direct experience to the previous outbreak of SARS.
China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, yes. South Korea and Japan, no. South Korea has had experience with MERS though, and that seems to have a much nastier death rate than COVID-19 so that could have had the same effect.

ETA: Japan had no experience with either SARS or MERS. Somehow they managed okay (maybe by luck rather than government action, but I don't know...)

Still, the US and UK were supposedly rated highest in terms of Pandemic Preparedness. How is it they dropped the ball so badly compared with countries from whom they could have learnt something?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

Last edited by angrysoba; 29th May 2020 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:13 AM   #1003
dann
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Tegnell om allvarliga läget - fjärde dagen med högst dödstal (Aftonbladet.se, May 29, 2020)
Tegnell about the serious situation – fourth day in a row with the highest death toll - 5,6 per million

The article is accompanied by a short video. For those of you who don’t understand Swedish, notice that Tegnell no longer looks as confident and self-assured as he used to.


Quote:
För sex veckor sedan garanterade Folkhälsomyndigheten att man kunde coronatesta 100 000 personer i veckan, enligt interna mejl.
Ändå har man bara nått upp till knappt 30 000 tester i veckan.
Nu backar myndigheten från strategin och hävdar att det inte längre finns behov av så omfattande testning.
Interna mejl visar löftet om masstestning – nu backar myndigheten (Aftonbladet.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
Six weeks ago the Public Health Agency guarantied that they could test 100,000 a week for coronavirus according to emails from and to the Health Agency and the government.
And yet they have only reached less than 30,000 a week.
Now the Agency backs away from the strategy and claims that there is no longer any need for testing on that scale.
Internal email shows the promise of mass testing – now the Public Health Agency backs away from that
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:25 AM   #1004
dann
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm pretty sure one of the most important, if not the most important, reasons why the countries you mentioned there did so very well has to do with the fact that they had direct experience to the previous outbreak of SARS.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, yes. South Korea and Japan, no.
Islands
Dictators
SARS experience


Another bad excuse shot down. I'm looking forward to the next one. Is it time to start a poll?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:30 AM   #1005
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Islands
Dictators
SARS experience
small countries
small populations


Originally Posted by dann View Post
Another bad excuse shot down. I'm looking forward to the next one. Is it time to start a poll?
Could it be something to do with the flags?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:40 AM   #1006
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Still, the US and UK were supposedly rated highest in terms of Pandemic Preparedness.
According to whom?

Edit: as far as i recalled reading the USA was considered especially vulnerable to pandemics.
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And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 29th May 2020 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:44 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
China, Hong Kong and Taiwan, yes. South Korea and Japan, no. South Korea has had experience with MERS though, and that seems to have a much nastier death rate than COVID-19 so that could have had the same effect.
By the way with regards to South Korea, i read that there was some political controversy about the lack of preparedness to some previous influenza that resulted in them setting up some up a quite robust nationwide disease tracking system.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:46 AM   #1008
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How Sweden wasted a ‘rare opportunity’ to study coronavirus in schools

Quote:
There’s nearly universal agreement that widespread, long-lasting school closures harm children. Not only do children fall behind in learning, but isolation harms their mental health and leaves some vulnerable to abuse and neglect. But during this pandemic, does that harm outweigh the risk—to children, school staff, families, and the community at large—of keeping schools open and giving the coronavirus more chances to spread?

The one country that could have definitively answered that question has apparently failed to collect any data. Bucking a global trend, Sweden has kept day care centers and schools through ninth grade open since COVID-19 emerged, without any major adjustments to class size, lunch policies, or recess rules. That made the country a perfect natural experiment about schools’ role in viral spread that many others could have learned from as they reopen schools or ponder when to do so. Yet Swedish officials have not tracked infections among school children—even when large outbreaks led to the closure of individual schools or staff members died of the disease.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 29th May 2020 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 11:08 AM   #1009
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Quote:
However, a scan of Swedish newspapers makes clear that school outbreaks have occurred. In the town of Skellefteå, a teacher died and 18 of 76 staff tested positive at a school with about 500 students in preschool through ninth grade.
That's one of the very few that has occurred as far as i can tell and of course it just so happens that i live nearby. We have had a very low level of spread here and there has been no real significant "peak" in hospitalizations or deaths at all.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann

Last edited by Arcade22; 29th May 2020 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 11:13 AM   #1010
dann
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Could it be something to do with the flags?

You seem to be on to something:
Unlike , many of the countries that are doing well seem to have the color red in their flags: , , , , , , ,

But doesn't, which is a problem. Belgium, however, does, which is an even bigger one.

So no, testing-tracing-quarantining still seems to be the way to go, unless you were able to nip it in the bud, like Mongolia.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 29th May 2020 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 11:26 AM   #1011
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post

At this point, people should know better than to ask Swedish researchers relying on information from Anders Tegnell about anything:

Quote:
In a review paper published 19 May in Acta Paediatrica, Ludvigsson concluded that children are “unlikely to be the main drivers” of COVID-19 spread. He cited case studies from France and Australia but wrote that, “So far there have been no reports of COVID-19 outbreaks in Swedish schools,” citing “personal communication” from Anders Tegnell, Sweden’s state epidemiologist, on 12 May. “This supports the argument that asymptomatic children attending schools are unlikely to spread the disease,” Ludvigsson wrote.

However, a scan of Swedish newspapers makes clear that school outbreaks have occurred. In the town of Skellefteå, a teacher died and 18 of 76 staff tested positive at a school with about 500 students in preschool through ninth grade. The school closed for 2 weeks because so many staff were sick, but students were not tested for the virus. In Uppsala, staff protested when school officials, citing patient privacy rules, declined to notify families or staff that a teacher had tested positive. No contact tracing was done at the school. At least two staff members at other schools have died, but those schools remained open and no one attempted to trace the spread of the disease there. When asked about these cases, Ludvigsson said he was unaware of them. He did not respond to a query about whether he would amend the review article to include them.

Man, what a researcher!
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 03:00 PM   #1012
Wayward son2
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I don't know what good it'll do, as all of you have already determined that Sweden is a disaster area and that those of us poor fools who live here are living on borrowed time...

... the big debate in Sweden right now is about how to avoid the actual disaster that killed so many people in retirement homes - about half of total deaths as I recall. The problem appears to have been structural and politically charged. Employees on these homes are often low wage, low education and with a form of employment that gives them no sick-leave. They did not stay home as instructed by authorities because they couldn't afford to.
Keep up what you are doing. I don't know if when the dust settles Sweden will come out looking good or looking bad, and neither does everyone on here who claims certainty. In Quebec, Canada - a province with almost as many people as Sweden (and a similar size with a similar population density and similar urban/rural split), they have a significantly higher death rate due to covid19 than Sweden. This despite being one of the fastest areas in the world to lockdown (they only had 17 cases and not deaths at the time). Same problem with nursing homes, and the status of those employees. More than 80% of deaths in Canada are in extended living facilities. The death rate for those under 65 is similar to the death rate from traffic fatalities over the same period of time.
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Old 30th May 2020, 01:24 AM   #1013
dann
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The Need for Herd Humanity

Quote:
Annika Borg och Johanna Andersson: Sverige behöver en etikkommission, som granskar beslutsfattandet och återupprättar en värdig människosyn*.
Coronapandemin har exponerat det eroderade folkhemmet**. Människor som lever långa liv betraktas som tärande och blir sedan avhumaniserade pinnar i dödsstatistiken.
”Döden på äldreboendena visar att vi behöver flockhumanitet” (Dagens Nyheter, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
Annika Borg and Johanna Andersson: Sweden needs an ethics commission to study the way decisions were made and to reestablish a worthy way of looking at our fellow human beings*.
The coronavirus pandemic has exposed the eroded Swedish wellfare state**.
People who live long lives are considered as a drain on society and then become dehumanized numbers in the death statistics.
"Death in nursing homes show that we need herd humanity"

I love the idea of herd humanity!

* människosyn is a Scandinavian concept that's a little difficult to translate. My own attempt got a little long, but I think that it is more to the point than these examples.
** folkhemmet is a specifically Swedish concept: (Wikipedia). In many ways, it's similar to the German concept of Volksgemeinschaft (Wikipedia):
Quote:
... it appealed to the idea of breaking down elitism and uniting people across class divides to achieve a national purpose.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th May 2020, 02:23 AM   #1014
dann
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Originally Posted by Wayward son2 View Post
Keep up what you are doing. I don't know if when the dust settles Sweden will come out looking good or looking bad, and neither does everyone on here who claims certainty. In Quebec, Canada - a province with almost as many people as Sweden (and a similar size with a similar population density and similar urban/rural split), they have a significantly higher death rate due to covid19 than Sweden. This despite being one of the fastest areas in the world to lockdown (they only had 17 cases and not deaths at the time). Same problem with nursing homes, and the status of those employees. More than 80% of deaths in Canada are in extended living facilities. The death rate for those under 65 is similar to the death rate from traffic fatalities over the same period of time.
This seems to be the way to offer the virus ideal conditions:

Quote:
The trends overwhelmingly point to the reality that many infected with Covid-19 are people who already experience systemic inequality, poverty and discrimination – issues that existed long before the virus, and which are now being cracked open for all to see.
First, there are the old. A horrific exposé in the Montreal Gazette revealed that a local nursing home – known by its French initials as a CHSLD – had concealed the deaths of 31 seniors. Many of them seemed to have died after most staff abandoned the facility. Some of the seniors found alive hadn’t had water, food or a diaper change in days.
(…)
… many asylum seekers are now working, without citizenship status, inside of Quebec’s seniors residences. And then they’re coming home at the end of their shift, to crowded apartments they share with friends and family, inside of shoddily maintained apartment buildings.
Earlier this month, the province admitted that its effort to manage staffing shortages by moving workers around the long-term care network could be spreading the virus. Montreal North feels the consequences of that. One in five Montrealers infected with Covid-19 are healthcare workers – none of whom are receiving danger pay. In Montreal North, 23% are infected, said community organizer Will Prosper.
Why are so many people getting sick and dying in Montreal from Covid-19? (The Guardian, May 13, 2020)

What about testing, tracing and quarantining? PPE for people working at hospitals or nursing homes? Are people in quarantine isolated from other people at their households?

"Being one of the fastest areas in the world to lockdown" doesn't help much if people still go to work untested and unprotected and infect the rest of the household when they come down with the disease.

Quote:
And it indicates that jurisdictions that kept down the number of infections — like B.C. and Alberta — have also lessened the excess deaths, says Prof. Prabhat Jha, a University of Toronto epidemiology professor.
“You see very different trajectories in places that reacted earlier,” he said. “Flattening the curve on mortality definitely does occur with action. How long you can sustain a lockdown is a separate question. But there’s no doubt it has bought time for some settings.”
COVID-19's impact indicated as Quebec deaths in April jump by 35% over average for recent years (National Post, May 13, 2020)

The question is what is done with the time you buy with a lockdown ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th May 2020 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 30th May 2020, 02:24 AM   #1015
Matthew Best
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
According to whom?

Edit: as far as i recalled reading the USA was considered especially vulnerable to pandemics.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/glo...edness-ranked/

Rank Country GHS Index Score
#1 🇺🇸 United States 83.5
#2 🇬🇧 United Kingdom 77.9
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Old 30th May 2020, 03:11 AM   #1016
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Translation:
Annika Borg and Johanna Andersson: Sweden needs an ethics commission to study the way decisions were made and to reestablish a worthy way of looking at our fellow human beings*.
The coronavirus pandemic has exposed the eroded Swedish wellfare state**.
People who live long lives are considered as a drain on society and then become dehumanized numbers in the death statistics.
"Death in nursing homes show that we need herd humanity"

I love the idea of herd humanity!

* människosyn is a Scandinavian concept that's a little difficult to translate. My own attempt got a little long, but I think that it is more to the point than these examples.
** folkhemmet is a specifically Swedish concept: (Wikipedia). In many ways, it's similar to the German concept of Volksgemeinschaft (Wikipedia):
Wow! Yes, what a lovely concept! The entire world could use some herd humanity!

I think the German "menschanschauung" has the same meaning as in the Scandinavian versions. Maybe the Dutsch has a word for it, too?
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Old 30th May 2020, 05:22 AM   #1017
dann
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/glo...edness-ranked/

Rank Country GHS Index Score
#1 🇺🇸 United States 83.5
#2 🇬🇧 United Kingdom 77.9

That list has been so ****** up by reality.
Notice that the Nordic countries are in the opposite order of how they have managed the pandemic so far:

#7 Sweden 72.1
#8 Denmark 70.4
#10 Finland 68.7
#16 Norway 64.6

Iceland isn't on the list of only 50 countries, but ...

#19 Belgium 61.0
#46 Mongolia 49.5

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 30, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 435 (4,395)
Denmark: 99 (571)
Finland: 57 (316)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland down to 1 (!) active case.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th May 2020, 05:34 AM   #1018
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Yes, but just because countries were prepared doesn't necessarily indicate that they will put their prepared plans into operation. And this seems to be what happened in the UK and the US at least.
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Old 30th May 2020, 06:57 AM   #1019
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/glo...edness-ranked/

Rank Country GHS Index Score
#1 🇺🇸 United States 83.5
#2 🇬🇧 United Kingdom 77.9
Well clearly that ranking does not seem to correlate very well with the outcomes we've been seeing in general, not just with regards to the US or the UK or Sweden.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:00 AM   #1020
Arcade22
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but just because countries were prepared doesn't necessarily indicate that they will put their prepared plans into operation. And this seems to be what happened in the UK and the US at least.
I'd emphasize that was a measure of how prepared they appeared to be. Appearances can be deceiving especially if you look blindly at publicly available data sources.
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We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr

And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:08 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Well clearly that ranking does not seem to correlate very well with the outcomes we've been seeing in general, not just with regards to the US or the UK or Sweden.
Exactly! That's why I asked my question...

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Still, the US and UK were supposedly rated highest in terms of Pandemic Preparedness. How is it they dropped the ball so badly compared with countries from whom they could have learnt something?
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 30th May 2020, 07:51 AM   #1022
dann
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Sweden says its coronavirus approach has worked. The numbers suggest a different story (CNN, May 29, 2020)

Analys: ”Dansk-norska beskedet smärtsamt bakslag för regeringen” (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Analysis: "The message from Denmark and Norway (about the borders) is a painful backlash for the government

Quote:
– För patienten och läkarens skull, för att förstå var vi har smitta, vi ska förstå hur åtgärder som väder och semestrar påverkar utvecklingen - och att vi vill använda testet som ett sätt att hitta de som ska isoleras och vi ska göra en kontaktspårning för att minska smittan och trycka ner den, säger Tove Hall.
Vilka argument finns det för att testa, testa, testa? (SVT.se, May 30, 2020 – 9:37)
Analysis:
- For the sake of the patient and the doctor, to understand where we have contagion, we need to understand how things like weather and holidays impact the development - and that we will use the test as a way of finding people who have to be isolated and we have to do contact tracing in order to lower the transmission and suppress it, says Tove Hall.
What are the arguments for testing, testing, testing?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th May 2020, 08:20 AM   #1023
dann
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Wow! Yes, what a lovely concept! The entire world could use some herd humanity!

I think the German "menschanschauung" has the same meaning as in the Scandinavian versions. Maybe the Dutsch has a word for it, too?

That would be Menschenanschauung with a capital M, but I hardly ever see the word used in a German context. Try googling it.

The writers of the article about flockhumanitet aren't alone.

Quote:
Den svenska linjen är liberal sägs det. Men det jag såg i Johan Giesecke var snarast en gammal herremanskultur där vissa regler gäller pöbeln och andra dem där uppe. De som har ett sommarnöje att åka till, en stor suv att köra i och skiter i vad folk tycker. Som Johan Giesecke sa när han kommenterade sitt barnbarnshäng: ”Vi är pigga.”
(…)
Den svenska liberalismen gör det fritt fram för den som fräckt vågar ta sig friheter. Medan vissa sällan går ut och följer rekommendationerna slaviskt kan andra göra som de vill. Den totala frånvaron av debatt om klassdimensionen i detta plågar mig.
Man sa att vi skulle möta Corona tillsammans.
Det gjorde vi inte.
Vi mötte tyvärr inte corona tillsammans - Den svenska strategin är en herremanskultur (Aftonbladet.se, May 30, 2020)
Translation:
They say that the Swedish strategy is liberal*. But what I saw in Johan Giesecke (former national epidmiologist, Tegnell supporter, who visited his grandchildren against the rules) was more like feudalism in the Middle Ages when certain rules were for the commoners and others for those on top. The ones who have summer entertainment to go to, a big SUV, and who don’t care about other people’s opinion.
Like Johan Giesecke said when he commented on visiting his grandchildren: “We’re fine and alert.”
Swedish liberalism gives freedom the those who audaciously take those freedoms. Whereas others rarely go outside and follow the recommendations meticulously, others can do as they please. The total absence of a discussion about the class dimension of this haunts me.
They said that we would face Corona together.
We didn’t.
Unfortunately, we didn’t face corona together – The Swedish strategy is the culture of feudalism

* It is important to understand that liberalism as the word is used in Scandinavia/Europe does not mean 'left wing' the way it does in the USA. That was applecorped's mistake when he created this thread. In the context of the pandemic it means a lax approach to handling it.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:51 AM   #1024
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post

* It is important to understand that liberalism as the word is used in Scandinavia/Europe does not mean 'left wing' the way it does in the USA. That was applecorped's mistake when he created this thread. In the context of the pandemic it means a lax approach to handling it.
Yes, I might for example say that Texas' handling of the Coronavirus is "way too liberal"! I migth cause some US heads to explode that way!
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Old 30th May 2020, 08:34 PM   #1025
dann
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I assume you weren't here for the beginning of the thread in early April when Sweden's death toll was 233. The first page is worth a look again now, two months later.
This was my answer to applecorped's glee when he had discovered that Sweden's liberal (!) pandemic strategy was failing. Notice also Baylor's comparison of Norway and the USA immediately after. I reminded him a couple of times when he was still around, and Ryokan was also there to set him straight.
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th May 2020 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 30th May 2020, 09:43 PM   #1026
dann
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Mixed bag of news in no particular order

Öppenhet del av Norges strategi mot viruset (SVT.se, May 30, 2020 – 23:37)
Being open (about sharing information) is a part of Norway’s strategy against the virus


Direktrapport · Svenskar kan resa till Grekland – men sätts i karantän (SVT.se, May 31, 2020)
Swedes can go to Greece – but will be placed in quarantine


Danish jerks spreading the virus – and the governments in Sweden and Denmark letting them:
Quote:
– Det är bara politik. I Skåne är faktiskt smittoprocenten lägre än i Köpenhamn, säger Django Cevik som planerar flera utflykter i Skåne med familjen under pingst.
Var och varannan bil på köpcentret Emporias parkering är danskregistrerad. På fredagen körde 14 000 bilar över Öresundsbron, på lördagen var trafiken mindre.
– Vi ska gå på gym i Malmö, säger Rikke Straarup som stannat till på köpcentret med sin pojkvän.
Danska turister räds inte Skåne (SVT.se, May 31, 2020)
Translation:
It’s just politics. In Scania the percentage of infections is actually lower than in Copenhagen, says Django Cevik, who is planning to go on more trips in Scania with his family this Whitsun.
Every other car in the parking lot of the mall Emporia is registered in Denmark. On Friday, 14,000 cars crossed the Øresund bridge, on Saturday, there was not as much traffic.
- We’ll go to the gym in Malmö, says Rikke Straarup, who stayed at the mall with her boyfriend.
Danish tourists aren’t afraid of Scania

Django Cevik probably isn’t aware that the rate of infections in Scania is probably lower because Sweden has given up on mass scale testing (Tests 1M pop: Denmark: 106,875; Sweden: 23,658), but he and his family may be about to find out – and maybe their grandparent upon their return. And Rikke Straarup and her boyfriend probably don’t consider that they might also spread the disease at the gym in Sweden. (Gyms still haven’t reopened in Denmark yet – for a reason.)


Quote:
Sverigedemokraterna jobbar just nu med förslag om att förstatliga sjukvården. En möjlighet är att börja med specialistsjukvården, anser SD-ledaren.
– Detta måste aktualiseras i och med den totala kollapsen av samordningen under krisen, säger Jimmie Åkesson
SD vill gå vidare med ett förstatligande av sjukvården (DagensNyheter.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
The Sweden Democrats (SD) are working on a proposal to nationalize the health care system. One option is to start with specialist health care, the SD leader thinks.
- The total collapse of cooperation during the crisis has made this urgent, Jimmie Åkesson says.
SD want to go further with nationalization of health careSD is a right-wing party, very critical of immigration


Quote:
31/5 2020. Regeringen måste slå fast att den allmänna smittspridningen ska minimeras och se till att det blir gjort.
Resten av Sverige behöver inte lida som Stockholm (DagensNyheter.se - editorial, May 30, 2020)
Translation:
The government should state that the general spreading of the virus must be lowered and make sure that it is done.
The rest of Sweden doesn’t have to suffer like Stockholm


Quote:
Vägen till att besegra coronaviruset går genom testning. Och där har Sverige halkat efter. Det säger Tove Fall, professor i molekylär epidemiologi vid Uppsala universitet.
– Sverige är inte så snabbfotat vid en kris. Men jag tror att det här viruset går att utrota, åtminstone lokalt, säger hon.
Professor: ”Jag tror att viruset går att utrota lokalt” (DagensNyheter.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
The way to defeat the coronavirus goes through testing. And Sweden is lagging behind. So says Tove Fall, professor of molecular epidemiology at the Uppsala Univerity.
- Sweden isn’t fast on its feet in a crisis. But I think that this virus can be exterminated, at least locally, she says.


Quote:
I Halland, Skåne och Kronoberg har var tredje som bott på äldreboende och avlidit av covid-19 dött på sjukhus. I Stockholm är det endast var tionde.
– Det kanske är en korrekt bedömning för alla de här patienterna – jag hoppas ju det – men jag blir lite orolig, säger Lena von Bahr, överläkare på Ersta Hospice.
Regionala skillnader i var äldre dör i covid-19 (DagensNyheter.se, May 30, 2020)
Translation:
In (the regions) Halland, Scania and Kronoberg, one in three residents at nursing homes has died from Covid-19 at a hospital. In Stockholm, it is only one in ten.
- that may be a correct estimate for all of these patients – I hope so – but it worries me, says Lena von Bahr, leading doctor at Ersta Hospice.
Regional differences between where old people die from Covid-19
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 30th May 2020 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 30th May 2020, 09:43 PM   #1027
Ulf Nereng
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I assume you weren't here for the beginning of the thread in early April when Sweden's death toll was 233. The first page is worth a look again now, two months later.
This was my answer to applecorped's glee when he had discovered that Sweden's liberal (!) pandemic strategy was failing. Notice also Baylor's comparison of Norway and the USA immediately after. I reminded him a couple of times when he was still around, and Ryokan was also there to set him straight.
It would be funny if it weren't so tragic ...
I saw Ryokan's post putting him straight, so I didn't bother to say anything at the time. But you're right, the beginning of this thread is worth another look now.
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Old 30th May 2020, 11:47 PM   #1028
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Direktrapport · Svenskar kan resa till Grekland – men sätts i karantän (SVT.se, May 31, 2020)
Swedes can go to Greece – but will be placed in quarantine

Det som avgör om man släpps in i landet är inte nationalitet, utan vilken flygplats du flugit in ifrån. (Aftonbladet.se, May 31, 2020 – 8:12)
What decides if you are allowed to enter the country isn’t nationality but the airport you came from

This means that passengers on planes from the Stockholm region will be tested upon arrival in Greece. Passengers shipping out from other parts of Sweden won't. (And many Swedish passengers from Scania fly with planes from Kastrup Airport, Copenhagen.)
After the nasal swab has been made, they have to wait at a hotel for the results. If the test is negative, they will have to self-quarantine at a hotel for one week. If it is positive, they can look forward to two weeks of supervised quarantine.
Man, this strategy may actually sell a lot of tickets to Swedes from Stockholm: A holiday in Greece and on top of that the coronavirus test that they can't get in Sweden!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2020, 03:11 AM   #1029
dann
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Yes, but just because countries were prepared doesn't necessarily indicate that they will put their prepared plans into operation. And this seems to be what happened in the UK and the US at least.

I find it difficult to see how a country without universal health care can be considered well-prepared for a pandemic, and not just well-prepared, but the most well-prepared country in the world, superior to everybody else. One of the old fables that we tell children turns out to have some truth in it:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

I bet nobody told Trump that story. Or maybe he just didn't listen.

I would love to see Trump's face if a progressive governor asked Cuba to send one of its medical brigades of the Henry Reeve Contingent to help out in the current emergency.
I'm sure that the Cuban medics would be just as obliging as the goose.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2020, 04:16 AM   #1030
dann
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Anders Tegnell makes another attempt to save face

This is one of those things that I will never be able to forgive Anders Tegnell for.

We had
the same argument in this thread last week, but it didn't take long for uke2se to see the mistake. Anders Tegnell is not only a bloody professional, an expert. He is the national epidemiologist of Sweden, and yet he comes up with this lame excuse for Sweden's death toll:

Quote:
Sett till antal smittade har inte fler dött i Sverige jämfört med andra länder, säger Anders Tegnell, snarare tvärtom – och lyfter hur väl den svenska sjukvården tagit hand om de som blivit sjuka.
Tegnells råd inför sommaren: Undvik nära kontakt med nya människor (SVT.se, May 31, 2020)
Translation:
If you look at the number of infected cases, more people haven’t died in Sweden in comparison to other countries, says Anders Tegnell, on the contrary – and he emphasizes how well the Swedish health care system has taken care of those who got ill.
Avoid close contact with strangers

Anders Tegnell can't possibly be unaware that "antal smittade", the number of infected cases in Sweden, is unknown but much, much higher than the the number of registered cases, i.e. people actually tested positive for the virus. I mean, look at these numbers:

Country - Deaths/1M pop - Tests/1M pop
Sweden - - - - 435 - - - - - - - 23,658
Denmark - - - - 99 - - - - - - 106,875

Somebody should teach that arrogant ******* The Noble Art.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2020, 05:26 AM   #1031
dann
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Quote:
– I dag har vi inga inrapporterade dödsfall, men som vanligt är det en viss eftersläpning i rapporteringen, säger Henrik Josefsson vid Folkhälsomyndighetens presstjänst.
JUST NU: Inga nya dödsfall i covid-19 inrapporterade i dag
(Aftonbladet.se, May 31, 2020 – 14:08)
Translation:
Today we have no reported deaths, but as usual there is a certain backlog in the reporting, says Henrik Josefsson of the Public Health Agency’s department of public relations.
Right now: No new deaths from Covid-19 reported today

Quote:
Lottie Knutson talar i Helgstudion om att folk från andra länder får åka runt i Sverige:
- Det måste ändras. Vi kan inte ha en massa danskar och tyskar som bränner runt fritt och så får du inte göra det.
Direktrapport · ”Vi kan inte ha danskar och tyskar som bränner runt fritt” (SVT.se, May 31, 2020 – 11:48)
Translation:
In the Weekend Studio, Lottie Knutson talks about people from other countries travelling around in Sweden.
- This has got to change. We can’t have a lot of Danes and Germans driving around without restritions when you can’t do so.
We can’t have Danes and Germans driving around as they please

Quote:
Turisterne skal dog kunne dokumentere, at de har booket et ophold mindst seks dage uden for København.
Statsministeren: Tyskere, nordmænd og islændinge må krydse grænsen fra 15. juni (DR.dk, May 31, 2020)
Translation:
But the tourists are required to show documentation that they have booked accommodation for a minimum of six days outside of Copenhagen.
The prime minister: Germans, Norwegians and Icelanders can cross the border from June 15

I assume that this article is also inspired by Sweden’s pandemic response, but only the beginning is not behind a pay wall:
Quote:
Svenskar är ett folk med en ”skrämmande slavmentalitet” och ser myndigheternas påbud som ett slags naturlag. Om en myndighet säger åt dem vad de ska äta så lyder de, ”och om det varit rävgift istället för yoghurt eller bröd så skulle man gladeligen ha ätit även det”.
Vidare är svenskar skrävlande, snåla och tölpaktiga, och gör ”allt för att framställa sig själva som lite viktiga och annorlunda”.
Det ”typiskt svenska” börjar bli en osund besatthet (Svenska Dagbladet, May 31, 2020)
Translation:
The Swedes are a people with a “scary slave mentality” and they consider the injunctions of the authorities to be almost a law of nature. If authorities tell them what to eat, they obey, “and if it were rat poison instead of yoghurt or bread, they would gladly eat that, too.
Swedes are also boastful, parsimonious and rude, and they do their utmost to present themselves as rather important and different.”
What is ”typically Swedish” is turning into an unhealthy obsession

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 31, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 435 (4,395)
USA: 319 (105,575)
Denmark: 99 (574)
Finland: 58 (320)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland back to two active cases. They keep coming, slowly, one at a time, but it would be interesting to know if the new cases have been infected in Iceland or abroad.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2020, 12:55 PM   #1032
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
And yes, transmission is overwhelmingly indoors. Outdoor transmission pretty much needs someone to cough in your face. And virtually everyone who was at Cheltenham racecourse in mid-March will have been in a crowded indoor space for some time that day. Including the one you mentioned - "coaches".

I think we have finished this theme, but for those of you who haven't been following this thread or who still aren't convinced that it is much more difficult for the virus to be transmitted outdoors, I can recommend a new, short (6 min.) video from Vox:

How coronavirus spreads outdoors vs. indoors (May 28, 2020)
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2020, 01:30 PM   #1033
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That is good. (What they didn't mention about the outdoor transmission in China was that the infected person only infected one other person, and that happened because of a face-to-face conversation which went on for a little while and as far as I know was not conducted with social distancing.) I don't think is is practically possible to get an infective dose of the virus from someone who just runs past you unless he pretty much coughs in your face on the way past, which is more or less what the film says.

I think if one makes a rule never to be in an enclosed space with anyone else, not to let anyone else in your house, and to stay six feet away from anyone you're interacting with in the open air (as opposed to someone you just walk past) one's risk of infection is negligible. Of course actually doing that is the tricky part, but if you can have food delivered and/or collect it without going into the shop, you can stay pretty safe.
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Old 1st June 2020, 10:13 AM   #1034
dann
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New horror stories

Quote:
Efter DN:s granskning av läkemedelförsörjningen bekräftar nu att det ännu råder osäkerheter om ansvarsfördelningen.
De efterlyser nu en tydlig nationell aktör som kan samordna läkemedelsförsörjning.
Läkemedelsverket: ”Läget är ännu inte glasklart” (Dagens Nyheter.se, May 31, 2020)
Translation:
After DN’s investigation of medical supplies, the Medical Products Agency now confirms that the the distribution of responsibility is still uncertain.
They call for a clarification of a national agency to coordinate the supply of medicine.
The Medical Products Agency: ”The situation still isn’t crystal clear”

Quote:
Enligt palliativregistrets statistik lider färre som avlider på boenden i covid-19 ångest och andnöd, jämfört med på sjukhus.
Samtidigt bedöms äldre på boenden ofta via telefon.
– Den lilla, lilla läkarresurs som är allokerad till äldreboenden i Sverige hinner inte med nu att göra fysiska, kroppsliga besök, säger Staffan Lundström, forskningsansvarig vid Svenska palliativregistret.
Överläkare: Läkare hinner inte träffa äldre på särskilda boenden (Dagens Nyheter.se, June 1, 2020)
Translation:
According to the statistics from the palliative register, fewer die in nursing homes in fear and without being able to breathe in comparison to hospitals.
Elderly in nursing homes are also often assessed on telephone.
- The extremely small resource of doctors allocated to nursing homes in Sweden doesn’t suffice to make actual physical visits, says Staffan Lundström, responsible for research at the Swedish palliative register.
Leading doctor: Doctors don’t have time to visit the the elderly in nursing homes

Danskar i Skåne: Vänner är kritiska till semester i Sverige - Tyskan: Mina vänner tyckte jag var galen
(Aftonbladet.se, June 1, 2020)
Dane in Scania: Friends criticize holiday in Sweden – German: My friends thought I was mad

Quote:
Andel patienter över 70 år med corona på intensiven:
Danmark: 49%
Norge: 30%
Sverige: 21%
Andelen äldre som fått intensivvård för covid-19 minskade kraftigt när läget var som värst, visar SvD:s kartläggning. Samtidigt har bristande medicinsk kompetens förvärrat coronakrisen på äldreboendena. Ger vi våra äldsta andra klassens vård i Sverige?
Okända kurvan visar hur äldre prioriteras bort (SvenskaDagbladet.se, May 30, 2020
Translation:
Percentage of corona patients older than 70 in intensive care:
Denmark: 49%
Norway: 30%
Sweden: 21%
SvenskaDagbladet’s investigation shows that he percentage of old people who have received intensive care for Covid-19 was significantly reduced when the situation was at its worst. Lack of medicinal competence has also worsened the corona crisis at nursing homes. Do we give our senior citizens second-class care in Sweden?
Rising curve shows how old people are discriminated against when prioritizations are made

Fick ingen hjälp när personal saknade munskydd – dog dagar senare (SVT.se, May 31, 2020)
Got no help when staff lacked face masks – died days later

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, June 1, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 436 (4,403)
USA: 321 (106,335)
Denmark: 99 (576)
Finland: 58 (320)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2020, 10:33 AM   #1035
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,307
Uppsala, north of Stockholm:
Quote:
Dubbelt så många patienter intensivvårdas just nu jämfört med för bara några veckor sedan. ”Det funkar inte att leva på som vanligt”, säger Mikael Köhler, hälso- och sjukvårdsdirektör.
Oroande trenden: Dubbelt så många intensivvårdas (SVT.se, June 1, 2020)
Translation:
Twice as many patients placed in intensive care right now compared to just a few weeks ago. ”You can’t live life the way you usually do,” says Mikael Köhler, Director of Health and Hospitals.
Troubling trend: Twice as many are placed in intensive care


The leader of the ward of infectious diseases at Aakadmiska Hospital is worried about people’s behaviour: big groups of people who don’t practice social distancing:
Infektionschefen: ”Folk gläds i sommarvärmen – men patienter dör” (SVT.se, June 1, 2020)
People are enjoying the hot summer – but patients are dying
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 1st June 2020 at 10:38 AM.
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Old 1st June 2020, 10:45 AM   #1036
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,307
Vacationing in Sweden is a really bad idea

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Danskar i Skåne: Vänner är kritiska till semester i Sverige - Tyskan: Mina vänner tyckte jag var galen
(Aftonbladet.se, June 1, 2020)
Dane in Scania: Friends criticize holiday in Sweden – German: My friends thought I was mad

Fem elever på Roskilde Katedralskole er syge med coronavirus, efter de var en del af en gruppe på 12, der tog på ferie i Sverige. (DR.dk, June 1, 2020)
Five (Danish) high-school students from Roskilde Katedralskole infected with the coronavirus. They were in a group of 12 who went on vacation to Sweden
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 12:57 AM   #1037
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,307
40 äldreboenden sticker ut – fördubblad överdödlighet under coronavåren (SVT.se, June 2, 2020)
40 nursing homes are conspicuous - double excess mortality during the corona Spring

Överdödligheten på äldreboenden – i fem grafer (SVT.se, June 2, 2020)
Excess mortality in nursing homes - in five graphs

Quote:
Socialstyrelsen har sagt att man inte ser någon uppseendeväckande överdödlighet på äldreboenden under coronapandemin. SVT:s kartläggning visar något annat.
SVT granskar: 30 procent överdödlighet på landets äldreboenden (SVT.se, June 2, 2020)
Translation:
The National Board of Health and Welfare have said that they don't see any remarkable excess mortality in nursing homes during the corona pandemic.
SVT investigates: 30 percent excess mortality in Swedish nursing homes
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2020, 02:49 PM   #1038
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,307
Quote:
Sverige är ”helt klart” förbi toppen på kurvan, enligt Anders Tegnell.
Men i Europa i stort börjar den positiva, nedåtgående, trenden sakta stanna av.
– Möjligen är det en effekt på att man håller på att öppna samhällen i ganska många EU-länder.
Anders Tegnell: I höst kan vi få se vilka som lyckats (DagensNyheter.se, June 1-2, 2020)
Translation:
Sweden has ”definitely” passed the peak of the curve, according to Anders Tegnell.
But in Europe, the positive downward trend is beginning to slow down.
-It may be due to the reopening of society in quite a lot of EU countries.
This Fall we’ll see who succeeded

Quote:
Strömstads kommun har färre än tio fall av covid-19 och kämpar för att behålla smittan på en låg nivå.
Samtidigt blöder turistnäringen och gränshandeln och en förstörd sommarsäsong riskerar att få långtgående ekonomiska och sociala konsekvenser.
Här i Bohuslän diskuteras ordet livsviktigt ur två olika perspektiv.
En svensk spökstad två minuter från den norska gränsen (DagensNyheter.se, June 2, 2020)
Translation:
Strömstad municipality has fewer than ten cases of Covid-19 and is fighting to keep the level of infections low.
But at the same time the tourism industry and border shopping are bleeding and a ruined summer season risks having long-term economic and social consequences.
Here in Bohuslän the term ’matter of life and death’ is debated from two different perspectives.
A Swedish ghost town two minutes from the Norwegian border

Quote:
At mange danskere nyder godt af den åbne grænse mod øst, viste sig i Kristi himmelfartsferien. Her opstod der timelange køer på Øresundsbroen, da danskerne skulle hjem fra deres svenske sommerhuse og ødegårde søndag aften.
Ifølge anbefalingerne fra Udenrigsministeriet skal alle danskere, der har opholdt sig i Sverige, gå i 14 dages hjemmeisolation.
Svenskere langer ud efter 'populistisk' Mette Frederiksen (BT.dk, June 2, 2020)
Translation:
That many Danes benefit from the open border to the east was made clear by the Ascension Day holidays (May 21-24). It resulted in hour-long lines of cars waiting to cross the Øresund bridge, when they Danes had to get back from their Swedish summer cottages Sunday night.
According to the recommendations from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, all Danes who have visited Sweden should spend 14 days in self-isolation.
Swedes strike out at ‘populist’ Mette Frederiksen (Danish PM)

Interview with Norway's national epidemiologist:
Quote:
Norge ligger på 100:e plats, med ett sjudagarsmedelvärde på 0,1 döda i covid-19 per miljon invånare.
– Vi är på en låg smittnivå som vi kan kontrollera. Vi smittspårar varje fall, isolerar och sätter i karantän. Jag hoppas vi kan hålla det här i schack till man förhoppningsvis får ett vaccin.
”Sverige går emot hela världen”, har du sagt om den svenska coronastrategin. Varför blev det så, tror du?
– Ni har inte följt WHO-råden kring testning och hård lockdown, att slå till hårt och snabbt.
”Sveriges restriktioner borde kommit på plats snabbare” (Aftonbladet.se, June 2, 2020)
Translation:
Norway is at #100 with a seven-day mean of 0.1 deaths from Covid-19 per million.
-We have a low level of transmission that we can control. We trace infections of every case, isolate and quarantine. I hope that we can keep this at bay until a vaccine is there.
You have said about the Swedish corona strategy that “Sweden is up against the whole world.” Why do you think this happened?
-You didn’t follow WHO’s advice about testing and strict lockdown, to hit it hard and fast.
”Sweden’s restrictions should have been in place sooner”

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, June 2, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 443 (4,468)
USA: 326 (107,907)
Denmark: 100 (580)
Finland: 58 (320)
Norway: 44 (237)
Iceland: 29 (10) Still two active cases in Iceland; New Zealand has only got one!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 2nd June 2020 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 08:36 PM   #1039
Ulf Nereng
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Norway
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Translation:
Sweden has ”definitely” passed the peak of the curve, according to Anders Tegnell.
But in Europe, the positive downward trend is beginning to slow down.
-It may be due to the reopening of society in quite a lot of EU countries.
This Fall we’ll see who succeeded


Translation:
Strömstad municipality has fewer than ten cases of Covid-19 and is fighting to keep the level of infections low.
But at the same time the tourism industry and border shopping are bleeding and a ruined summer season risks having long-term economic and social consequences.
Here in Bohuslän the term ’matter of life and death’ is debated from two different perspectives.
A Swedish ghost town two minutes from the Norwegian border


Translation:
That many Danes benefit from the open border to the east was made clear by the Ascension Day holidays (May 21-24). It resulted in hour-long lines of cars waiting to cross the Øresund bridge, when they Danes had to get back from their Swedish summer cottages Sunday night.
According to the recommendations from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, all Danes who have visited Sweden should spend 14 days in self-isolation.
Swedes strike out at ‘populist’ Mette Frederiksen (Danish PM)

Interview with Norway's national epidemiologist:

Translation:
Norway is at #100 with a seven-day mean of 0.1 deaths from Covid-19 per million.
-We have a low level of transmission that we can control. We trace infections of every case, isolate and quarantine. I hope that we can keep this at bay until a vaccine is there.
You have said about the Swedish corona strategy that “Sweden is up against the whole world.” Why do you think this happened?
-You didn’t follow WHO’s advice about testing and strict lockdown, to hit it hard and fast.
”Sweden’s restrictions should have been in place sooner”

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, June 2, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 443 (4,468)
USA: 326 (107,907)
Denmark: 100 (580)
Finland: 58 (320)
Norway: 44 (237)
Iceland: 29 (10) Still two active cases in Iceland; New Zealand has only got one!
I've been to Strømstad myself, though that was for a chess tournament back in the 80's when I was a somewhat decent player. I did remember to bring back my "quota", though! It's a popular destination for retired people who will typically travel by bus from Oslo Bussterminal. Not so much right now, I guess! A bus packed full of elderly people going to Sweden and back... nah!

I found out today that there is an ongoing project to test thousands of people for antibodies. It was started in mid-may. These test numbers are clearly not included in the "daily tests" numbers shown on Worldometer, though, so I sent them a request to show those numbers in a separate column on their own FHI page.

There were nine new cases yesterday so the virus is still out there. And nine persons still on the critical list, so there will be some more deaths, but that number keeps dropping, thankfully.
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Old 2nd June 2020, 11:52 PM   #1040
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 11,307
Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
I've been to Strømstad myself, though that was for a chess tournament back in the 80's when I was a somewhat decent player. I did remember to bring back my "quota", though! It's a popular destination for retired people who will typically travel by bus from Oslo Bussterminal. Not so much right now, I guess! A bus packed full of elderly people going to Sweden and back... nah!

A group of Danes with houses in Sweden are quarreling with each other about whether it is OK to Sweden during the pandemic:
Danske ødegårdsejere skændes, så det brager, om adgangen til Sverige (DR.dk, June 3, 2020) I guess going to a house somewhere in the middle of nowhere probably doesn't spread the virus. The idiots who spread the virus are the ones who go to discos and gyms in Sweden because they still haven't reopened in Denmark.

Quote:
I found out today that there is an ongoing project to test thousands of people for antibodies. It was started in mid-may. These test numbers are clearly not included in the "daily tests" numbers shown on Worldometer, though, so I sent them a request to show those numbers in a separate column on their own FHI page.

So far, the antibody tests seem to be so unreliable that they do more harm than good.

Quote:
There were nine new cases yesterday so the virus is still out there. And nine persons still on the critical list, so there will be some more deaths, but that number keeps dropping, thankfully.

Denmark has 21 serious/critical cases, Finland 9 (like Norway), Iceland 0, and Sweden 283. At the beginning of the outbreak in Denmark, they listed the countries that the infections could be traced back to. With very few exceptions they could all be traced back to Austria and Italy. At this point, it would be interesting to know how many of the new cases can be traced to Sweden. It was scary to read about the Finnish doctor mentioning that all the cases in his area could be traced to Sweden!

Even Tegnell seems to have realized that the Swedish strategy was ****:
Sveriges statsepidemiolog: Vi burde have gjort mere mod coronavirus (TV2.dk, June 3, 2020 - 8:22)
Sweden's national epidemiologist: We should have done more against the coronavirus

Quote:
Om det hade gått att backa bandet hade statsepidemiolog Anders Tegnell satt in fler åtgärder tidigare för att stoppa pandemin i Sverige. Det slår han fast i en intervju med Sveriges Radio Ekot.
– Jag tror att det finns förbättringspotential i det vi har gjort i Sverige, helt klart, säger han.
Tegnell självkritisk: Mer åtgärder hade behövts (SVT.se, June 3, 2020)
Translation:
If it were possible to go back in time, national epidemiologist Anders Tegnell would have introduced more precautions sooner to stop the pandemic in Sweden, he states in an interview with Sweden's Radio Ekot.
- I think that there is room for improvement in what we have done in Sweden, definitely, he says.
Tegnell self-critical: More precautions were needed

I wonder how the Swedes are going to respond to his message, in Sweden as well as in this thread.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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