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Tags Coronavirus , Sweden incidents , Sweden issues

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Old 26th May 2020, 01:18 PM   #961
Rolfe
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That was what our lot said initially too, when they had decided just to let the virus "move through the population". There will be a beginning, a middle and an and to this. The time will come when everyone over seventy will be required to stay in their own homes for 12 weeks. The vulnerable will be cocooned. "What I'd really like to do is to take all the vulnerable people and isolate them in the north of Scotland and then put everybody else into Kent and have a nice big epidemic and when that was over everyone would go back again." Graham Medley actually said that. It was a metaphor of course, but he meant it. That would have killed around 400,000 of the non-vulnerable people. It would also have killed most of the vulnerable ones when they all went back again because the virus would be endemic in the ones that had been in Kent.

That was the quality of the thinking that was advising Westminster at the start of this. It was positively psychopathic. And of course the same thing happened as in Sweden. The care homes weren't protected at all and about half the total deaths have been care home residents. I'd put them all on trial.
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:58 PM   #962
dann
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
... but what was done in advance to prevent or limit the infections and deaths in these vulnerable populations as much as possible?

Hand sanitizer, maybe. Except that we have also heard that hand sanitizer was replaced with ordinary water at one nursing home.
I guess that the politicians and the so-called experts will be washing their hands of the whole thing for years to come.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th May 2020, 02:03 PM   #963
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More border problems

Quote:
The government eased coronavirus restrictions on Monday, allowing the fiancés and partners of some citizens to enter Denmark from neighboring countries, police and justice officials told CNN.
The relaxed border controls apply only to permanent residents of Denmark's neighboring nations -- Germany, Sweden, Norway and Finland. Couples must also have met regularly in person to be considered under the policy.
The plan has caused controversy in Denmark, as those seeking to cross the border must prove to the police that their relationship is at least six months old.
(…)
As well as applying to romantic partners, the slight border relaxation will also allow people to visit grandparents or visit their holiday homes in Denmark -- all of which are considered "worthy purposes."
Denmark allows cross-border 'sweethearts' to reunite -- if they can prove they've been in a relationship for 6 months (CNN, May 26, 2020)

Svensk udenrigsminister: Få nu åbnet den grænse helt, Danmark (DR.dk, May 26, 2020)
Sweden’s minister of foreign affairs: Open that border completely, Denmark

Maybe she's only been in a relationship with her Danish boyfriend for five months.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:48 PM   #964
dann
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Very interesting article about a Norwegian nursing home!

Quote:
När Oslo drabbades hårt av coronaviruset började Trondheim direkt att förbereda sig på ett utbrott.
Men trots en snabb och effektiv hantering av den smittvåg som följde visade anställda på ett äldreboende, som inte haft direktkontakt med smittade, symptom på covid-19.
En andra smittvåg var ett faktum, och man tvingades tänka om för att stoppa ett stort och potentiellt förödande utbrott.
Så lyckades norska äldreboendet få stopp på ett stort utbrott av covid-19 (SVT.se, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
When Oslo (the capital of Norway) was hit hard by the coronavirus, Trondheim immediately started to prepare for an outbreak.
But in spite of handling the wave of contagion fast and efficiently, employees in one nursing home who hadn’t had direct contact with infected persons showed symptoms of Covid-19.
A second wave of infections was now a fact, and they were forced to rethink in order to stop a big and devastating outbreak
How a Norwegian nursing home managed to stop a big outbreak of Covid-19

A very interesting article. They invesitigate the problem meticulously and discover that the contagion in the second wave of infections happened in a changing room where protective gear came into contact with other clothes. So even though transmission doesn’t usually happen through objects, it is not hard to see that, for instance masks and shields that somebody has sneezed into may contain a large number of viruses that shouldn’t come into contact with other kinds of clothes. (I guess it’s also important to make sure that employees don’t share face shields unless they have been cleaned thoroughly, maybe even boiled.)
- - - -

Quote:
Anders Tegnell betonar samtidigt att flera regioner i landet redan jobbar med smittspårning.
– Där har man såpass lite smittspridning att man klarar av att jobba på det sättet.
Tegnells svar om att trycke ner smitteen: Inte riktigt genomförbart (Expressen.se, May 26, 2020)
Translation:
Anders Tegnell emphasizes that several regions in the country are already working on tracing transmission of infections.
- In those places, they have so little contagion that they manage to work in this way.
Tegnell’s answer to the question of “suppressing the transmission of infections”: It isn’t really feasible
- - - -

Quote:
I går sa Tove Fall, professor i molekylär epidemiologi, att Sverige måste "vässa målet" och jobba mer med smittspårning för att trycka ner smittan.
Hon anser att varje person som har symptom ska testas. Om de testas positivt ska de isoleras till de testats negativt. Även alla personer i hushållet och i personens närhet ska testas.
– Det är en klassisk modell som vi använder för mässling och många andra sjukdomar, där vi har relativt få fall. Då går det här att genomföra rent resursmässigt, säger Anders Tegnell.
– Har man väldigt många i samhället som har sjukdomen blir det väldigt många man måste testa och extremt många som måste isolera sig, och det är inte riktigt genomförbart.
När Sverige kommer ner till ganska låga nivåer av spridning kan det bli aktuellt med smittspårning i större utsträckning.
Senaste nytt om coronaviruset (SVT.se, May 26, 2020 – 21:21)
Translation:
Yesterday Tove Fall, professor of molecular epidemiology, said that Sweden must ”sharpen the target” and focus more on tracing in order to suppress the infection.
She thinks that every person with symptoms should be tested. If they test positive, they should be isolated until the test negative. And other persons in a household need to be tested.
- It is the classic model that we use in the case of measles and many other diseases where we have relatively few cases. Then we have the resources to make it feasible, says Anders Tegnell.
- If a large number of people have the disease, you will have to test very many, and very many will have to self-isolate, and that is not feasible.
When Sweden gets to a point where there is a very low level of contagion, it may become possible to trace infections on a large scale.


In other words, when large-scale tracing is needed the most, you can forget about it. And since a lockdown is also out the question in Sweden, it's no wonder that Anders Tegnell is dreaming of ‘herd immunity’: When so many people have died or achieved immunity by having survived the disease that few are left to trace. It’s a ******* disgrace!
- - - -

Quote:
Antalet testades för pågående coronasmitta minskade förra veckan till 28 800 personer. Det är cirka 4 000 färre jämfört med veckan före, enligt Folkhälsomyndighetens statistik. Samtidigt har Sverige laboratoriekapacitet att utföra 100 000 tester i veckan och det har också varit regeringens uttalade mål.
– Vi behöver nå ytterligare och testa mer omfattande, men testningen behöver vara ändamålsenlig, säger Karin Tegmark Wisell, avdelningschef på Folkhälsomyndigheten.
Att regeringens mål om 100 000 tester i veckan inte är uppnått vill Tegmark Wisell inte se som ett misslyckande.
Folkhälsomyndigheten: Viktigt att de tester som görs är ändamålsenliga (SVT.se, May 26, 2020)
Translation:
The number of people tested for the corona infection decreased last week to 28,800. That is approximately 4,000 fewer in comparison to the week before, according to the statistics from Public Health Agency. At the same time, Sweden has lab capacity to make 100,000 tests a week, and that was also the government’s target.
- We need to go further and test more extensively, but testing should be to the point, says Karin Tegmark Wisell, leader of the department at the Public Health Agency.
Tegmark doesn’t see it as a failure that the government’s target of 100,000 tests a week hasn’t been met.
The Public Health Agency: It is important that the tests are to the point
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2020, 12:11 AM   #965
dann
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Originally Posted by icerat View Post
I've actually had my opinion on snus reversed. Negative health effects seem to very minor. Most of the reported problems like pancreatic cancer don't seem to be of concern.

Aesthetic effects are another issue ...

Who cares about aesthetics if snus not only doesn't harm your pancreas but also protects you from Covid-19!

Quote:
I världen pågår intensiva studier för att se om nikotin i tobaksrök kan skydda från allvarlig covid-19.
Nu ska en svensk forskargrupp undersöka om nikotinet i snus kan ha en liknande effekt.
– Sverige har en unik möjlighet eftersom vi är ensamma om att snusa i så stor utsträckning, säger Cecilia Magnusson vid Centrum för epidemiologi och samhällsmedicin.
Svenska forskare undersöker om snus kan skydda mot allvarlig covid-19 (Dagens Nyheter, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
Intensive studies are taking place to find out if nicotine in tobacco smoke may protect you from serious Covid-19.
Now a Swedish group of researchers will try to find out if the nicotine in snus may have a similar effect.
Sweden has a unique opportunity since we alone use snus on such a large scale, says Cecilia Magnusson at the Center for Epidemiology and Social Medicine
Swedish researchers are trying to find out if snus can protect from serious Covid-19
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2020, 12:48 AM   #966
dann
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Swedish nationalism and pandemic response revisited

Quote:
Den jämförelsevis extrema svenska coronastrategin går kanske att förklara med folkkynnet.
När svenskar listar värderingar de finner viktiga hamnar begreppen ”ansvar” och ”ansvarstagande” år efter år på topp tio.
– Här skiljer vi ut oss även från närliggande länder, säger Stefan Kraft, en av de ansvariga för den så kallade Sverigestudien.
Sverigestudien: ”Det kan förklara stora stödet för vår coronastrategi” (Dagens Nyheter, May 26, 2020)
Translation:
The comparatively extreme Swedish corona strategy may be explained by the national character of Swedes.
When Swedes list values they find important, the concept of ”responsibility” and ”taking responsibility” are on the Top Ten year after year.
This is a point where we are different even from neighboring countries, says Stefan Kraft, one of the people responsible for the so-called Sweden studies.
Sweden studies: “It may explain the big support for our corona strategy

Unfortunately, the rest of the article is behind a pay wall, but maybe one of the Swedes can explain it to me. I just don’t understand how Sweden’s irresponsible pandemic strategy can somehow be related to taking responsibility.
But I can see how abandoning the vulnerable part of the population to get sick and die while pretending to take responsibility may cause an awful lot of cognitive dissonance, which to me also seems to be an important part of the way Swedes think about their country’s pandemic response. Kind of like, ‘We refuse to acknowledge the reality of this colossal betrayal of trust by defending it as being in accordance with scientific expertise. It is just objective reality condemning these people to die, it's a law of nature.'

So even when they see their neighbors cope with it in an entirely different way, they refuse to acknowledge that this is really be happening, it goes against the very fabric of reality, and it can't be anything other than a stupid way of postponing the inevitable:
'There can be no other god than Anders Tegnell, and we choose to believe in him because he makes us feel good about ourselves.'
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:47 AM   #967
dann
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95 nya dödsfallregistrerade i covid-19 (Dagens Nyheter.se, May 27, 2020)

I thought the USA would catch up with Sweden, per-capita-wise, but instead Sweden has been gaining on France for some time: 28,530 (437).

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 26, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 418 (4,220)
USA: 304 (100,625)
Denmark: 98 (565)
Finland: 56 (312)
Norway: 43 (235)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland still two active cases
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2020, 12:52 PM   #968
dann
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Quote:
I dag onsdag har Sverige återigen rapporterat högst dödlighet i världen i covid-19, enligt University of Oxford.
Sjudagarsmedelvärdet ligger för närvarande på 5,4 döda per miljon invånare i Sverige. Näst hårdast drabbade är Brasilien och San Marino.
– Det är absolut förskräckligt att vi har så höga dödstal i Sverige, säger Anders Tegnell.
Sverige hade världens högsta dödstal - igen (Aftonbladet.se, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
Again today, Wednesday, Sweden has reported the highest mortality in the world from Covid-19, according to University of Oxford.
The seven-day medium is now 5,4 deaths per million in Sweden. After Sweden, Brazil* and San Marino are the countries hit hardest.
-It is absolutely dreadful that the death toll is this high in Sweden, Anders Tegnell says.
Sweden has the highest number of deaths - again

Same as last week, the article refers to the result published on Our World in Data: Daily confirmed COVID-19 deaths per million

* Brazil had 4,4 deaths per million.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:03 PM   #969
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I see Taiwan has had no new cases for 45 days although there are still some people in hospital. They're considering opening up the country internally once they've gone 56 days (8 weeks) with no new cases.

What's the reason Taiwan is so favoured that mere western European nations like Sweden and Britain could never have aspired to that outcome?
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Old 28th May 2020, 12:57 AM   #970
dann
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“Prevention is better than cure, especially ..." when there is no cure yet

Quote:
Following the announcement of the first COVID-19 case in China, the Taiwanese government swiftly put together a four-pronged approach to combat the spread of the virus. The strategy is as follows:

- Early border control
- Proactive case finding and containment
- Resource allocation
- Reassurance and education of the public

Firm steps were taken at the country’s airports to ban incoming visitors from high-risk areas, such as Wuhan, China. Taiwanese citizens who were returning from these high-risk areas had to quarantine themselves for 14 days. Health tests were also conducted at airports, and individuals who tested positive for the virus were quarantined either at home or at hotels.
Effective infection control strategies implemented in Taiwan (HealthCareNew, May 8, 2020)
See more details in the article about PPE supply, tracing by means of cell phones etc.

They were also on it very early on:

Quote:
The low case count has been ensured without a complete lockdown. Schools and businesses continue normal operations, but people have been asked to wear protective masks and strictly follow COVID-19 precautions.

‘Lessons for the world’

Taiwan’s effective response has been attributed to its "early preparedness, health expertise, government competence, and popular alertness."

According to report by the U.S.-based Council on Foreign Relations, Taiwan alerted the World Health Organization (WHO) about the new coronavirus’ potential for human-to-human transmission on Dec. 31 but received no response.
No new case in Taiwan as strategy bears fruit (aa.com.tr, April 14, 2020)

So they appear to have responded much sooner than even Iceland, the fastest of the five Nordic countries. I guess it has become obvious to most of us how much an incompetent government can do wrong.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th May 2020 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 28th May 2020, 01:54 AM   #971
dann
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In Sweden, an article today seems to indicate that the Swedish consensus was reached without any real debate. People still support primeminister Löfven, but the debate is only just starting:

Quote:
Nu syns emellertid en begynnande debatt om Sveriges sätt att bekämpa coronasmittan. Det handlar om höga dödstal i Sverige jämfört med till exempel Norge, Danmark och Finland, men också att äldreboenden verkar ha drabbats särskilt hårt i Sverige.
Analys: Trots begynnande coronadebatt – fortsatt vind i ryggen för Löfven (SVT.se, May 28, 2020)
Translation:
However, now a beginning debate about Sweden's way of fighting the corona infection appears. It is a question of a high death toll in Sweden in comparison to Norway, Denmark and Finland, but also about nursing homes seeming to have been hit particularly hard in Sweden.
Analysis: In spite of beginning corona debate - still support for Löfven


The Italian embassy criticizes Anders Tegnell's nationalistic arrogance when he compared Sweden and Italy:

Quote:
– Jag hade trott att vi i ett modernt och rikt samhälle som Sverige borde kunna skydda våra äldre, Det ska inte behöva vara som det såg ut i Kina eller kanske till och med i Italien, där man har mindre resurser för sådant, sade den svenske statsepidemiologen i intervjun.
Italiens ambassadör kritiserar Tegnell (SVT.se, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
- I had thought that in a modern and rich society like Sweden, we should protect our old people. It doesn't have to be what it looked like in China or even in Italy where they have fewer resources for this, the Swedish national epidemiologist said in the interview.
Italy's ambassador criticizes Tegnell

To this, the Italian ambassador to Sweden writes:
Quote:
... att den italienska sjukvården enligt WHO rankas som näst bäst i världen – medan den svenska befinner sig på plats 23.
”Medellivslängden i Italien ligger på 83,4 år, medan den i Sverige är 82,2 år. Vad gäller sjukhusplatser finns det i Italien 3,4 per 1000 invånare – i Sverige är siffran 2,2”, skriver Mario Cospito vidare och avslutar sitt inlägg med en syrlig kommentar:
”Alla personer utanför Italiens gränser borde lovorda och vara solidariska med vårt land – och det även då vi lät andra länder, däribland Sverige, få den respit, som vi själva nekades på grund av ödets nyck.”
Italiens ambassadör kritiserar Tegnell (SVT.se, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
... that according to WHO, Italian health care is considered to be the second best in the world - whereas Sweden is #23.
"The average life expectancy in Italy is 83.4, in Sweden it is 82.2. When it comes to hospital beds, there are 3.4 per 1,000 inhabitants in Italy - in Sweden the number is 2.2," writes Mario Cospito and ends his letter on a sour note:
"Every person outside the borders of Italy should praise and show solidarity with our country - particularly when we let other countries, Sweden among them, get the respite that fate denied us."

And he is right, of course: European countries that learned nothing from what happened in China should at least have paid attention when Italy was hit hard by the virus. They should have used the respite to prepare for the outbreak. Sweden doesn't appear to have done anything, convinced as they were that the health of their senior citizens and the health care system were superior to the rest of the world.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th May 2020 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:23 AM   #972
dann
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SSI: Andelen af danskere med corona-symptomer falder støt (DR.dk, May 27, 2020 – 15:42) [/quote]
The number of Danes with Covid-19 symptoms still decreasing – been dropping for the past 6 weeks.

Notice that this is not based on actual testing, but on the so-called Covidmeter, which asks its subscribers to describe their symptoms once a week. 120,000 have been doing this. So this isn’t exactly an accurate measurement. I can imagine that some people will have described ordinary common cold and flu symptoms, for instance, six week ago, and now that the flu season is over, those symptoms have disappeared. The percentage of people reporting corona-like symptoms has dropped from 1.3% (April 6 to 12) to 0.25% (May 11 to 17).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:07 AM   #973
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If people are social distancing you wouldn't expect them to get colds or flu either. Every cloud...
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:24 AM   #974
dann
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That's what happened here, immediately after the lockdown! And in most other places, too, I think.

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 28, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 423 (4,266)
USA: 309 (102,197)
Denmark: 98 (568)
Finland: 56 (313)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland 3 active cases again!

ETA:
Folkhälsomyndigheten står fast vid svenska coronastrategin (SVT.se, May 28, 2020)
The Public Health Agency sticks with the Swedish corona strategy
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 28th May 2020 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:45 AM   #975
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 28, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 423 (4,266)
USA: 309 (102,197)
Denmark: 98 (568)
Finland: 56 (313)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland 3 active cases again!
Meanwhile.....

UK: 552 (37,460)

Count your blessings!
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:46 AM   #976
dann
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I do, I do! Even salsa classes start again this weekend, outside, and without switching partners all the time the way we usually do:

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Not from Denmark, obviously!

Quote:
Under the shade of umbrellas, pensioners eat cake at a cafe, children slosh cups of juice, and students clink beer bottles, smoking, laughing and talking loudly enough to be heard above the buzz of people who are now … everywhere.
A postcard from the future: life in Denmark after the lockdown (The Guardian, May 28, 2020)

However, I'm a little worried that we may have become too relaxed. Wearing masks outdoors is hardly necessary, but indoors, in supermarkets, for instance, it might be a good idea. But only a very small minority of Danes wore them during the lockdown. (And I didn't do so.) I hope it won't mean that a second wave is inevitable, but I think the authorities will be able to put a stop to it much sooner if it is, now that testing seems to in place.

Quote:
There are no face masks in sight, few gloved hands, and little sign of any seismic global interruption. The only visible difference between the throng pre-lockdown and now is that pedestrians walk in “lanes”, depending on their direction of traffic, and mobile hand sanitiser stations are parked at intervals along the high streets. Sanitiser pumps grace every shop doorway and smaller retailers display signs instructing customers how many are allowed in at any given time. But Danes are happy to comply for the most part – if there are already four people buying ice-cream, they’ll just come back later.
By the way, Helen Russell's book mentioned at the end of the article, The Year of Living Danishly, is excellent.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 28th May 2020, 12:06 PM   #977
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Meanwhile.....

UK: 552 (37,460)

Count your blessings!

I know. It's grim.

Scotland is on 425 (2,316) so God only knows what England itself is on. Of course that's just the confirmed deaths, for consistency of numbers. If you add the suspected ones it goes up to 3,825 and we're on 4,123 excess deaths for the period from mid-March when fatalities began.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:40 PM   #978
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This isn't about Sweden but it's a powerful piece of film anyway and it has some relevance to this thread.

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Old 28th May 2020, 04:02 PM   #979
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Meanwhile.....

UK: 552 (37,460)

Count your blessings!
This thread is about bashing Sweden, where people are less free than the people of Cuba. Please get with the program.
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Old 28th May 2020, 04:46 PM   #980
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So Matthew Best mentions the corona deaths in the UK, per million and total, because they stand out even in comparison to those in Sweden - for the time being - and you have to use it to vent your frustration at facts about Sweden's atrocious pandemic response, which to you is considered to be "bashing Sweden". Nobody here is has been bashing Sweden, but you react the same way Trump react whenever somebody tells the truth about him: He whines and accuses them of attacking him in an unfair manner: 'Don't you dare repeat to me what I said. That is fake news!'

And I see no reason to bring Cuba into this thread about Sweden's coronavirus strategy. I already told you how the strategies of the two countries differ: In post 313 from May 16 in the thread about the way that capitalism helps spread the virus.

But let's use the opportunity to take a look at how things have changed since May 16:
Originally Posted by dann View Post
There is also this difference between capitalist Sweden and socialist Cuba:
Coronavirus deaths per million
#8 Sweden: 361
#86 Cuba: 7
Today, May 28, the corresponding numbers are:
Quote:
Coronavirus deaths per million
#8 Sweden: 423
#95 Cuba: 7

So I guess I'll just have to face facts: Cuba isn't nearly as good as Sweden at letting the virus kill senior citizens. Cuba barely makes it to the Top 100.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 28th May 2020, 05:01 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This isn't about Sweden but it's a powerful piece of film anyway and it has some relevance to this thread.

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She makes an interesting comparison between, on the one hand, the mini series Chernobyl and the many lies told by Soviet officials and, on the other hand, the coronavirus lies told by people like Boris Johnson who are driven by the market-oriented ideology.

Johnson's death toll actually seems to be higher than Chernobyl's Deaths due to the Chernobyl disaster (Wikipedia)
I wouldn't have wanted to be in Chernobyl and I wouldn't want to be in London now.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 12:57 AM   #982
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The alleged Sweden bashing

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
This thread is about bashing Sweden, where people are less free than the people of Cuba. Please get with the program.

This thread was never about bashing Sweden! Maybe it's time you let the idea enter into your skull that this whole situation is not at all about 'Sweden bashing' but about preventing not only our own compatriots from dying but also about trying to persuade Swedes that they shouldn't be so cavalier about their own compatriots dying!
Take a look at the reality of what Sweden is right now! Sweden is a nightmare of infection and denial! Saying so isn't Sweden bashing. lt's the accusation of letting people die awful and much too early deaths, and it's the accusation of denying this fact.
Even your infallible guru Anders Tegnell has now declared that this isn't really about comorbidities, it's primarily about age. So otherwise perfectly healthy people in their 70s die from this disease - and you let them.

This is what Sweden knows about the situation in the other Nordic countries:


Quote:
Dödstalen fortsätter att hålla sig på en blygsam nivå i Sveriges nordiska grannländer. I Norge rapporterades på torsdagen ett nytt dödsfall, i Danmark tre och i Finland inget nytt fall det senaste dygnet.
Låga dödstal hos nordiska grannar (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
The number of deaths continues to stay at a low level in Sweden’s Nordic neighboring contries. On Thursday, a new deah was reported on Thursday, three in Denmark and none in Finland in the last 24 hours.
Low death tolls at our Nordic neighbors

And yet, Swedish politicians (and you as well) are offended when the other Nordic countries don't want to let Sweden's coronavirus carriers spread the infection. It's not because they have anything against Swedes as such. They just don't want Swedes to infect their respective peoples with the disease. And for some reason, which should not be very difficult to understand and empathize with, the people themselves in the other Nordic countries also aren't eager to get infected. This is what a couple of Finns have to say:

Quote:
– Vi har kämpat för att hålla andelen smittade nere i Finland. Då känns det inte bra, säger Kaisa Nyroos.
(…)
– Jag vill att svenskar som vill komma till Finland ska fundera på att det finns fler fall i Sverige och att de kan föra med sig smittan.
Hör finländare om att ta emot svenska turister i sommar (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
In Finland, we have been fighting to keep the percentage of infected down. Then it doesn’t feel good, says Kaisa Nyroos.
(…)
I want Swedes who want to go to Finland to consider that there are more cases in Sweden and that they can bring the infection.
Listen to the Finns talking about receiving Swedish tourists this Summer

I can really, really recommend listening to the Finns and what they have to say about Swedish tourists entering their country! They speak Swedish and the short video has Swedish subtitles.
Three days ago, this is what a Finnish MD had to say about the contagion coming from Sweden:

Quote:
Alla konstaterade coronafall i finska Österbotten är smittspårade till Sverige. Nu höjer överläkaren i Vasa ett varningens finger angående resor till grannlandet i väst.
Finske överläkaren: ”Alla våra coronafall har smittats i Sverige” (SVT.se, May 26, 2020)
Translation:
In all of the registered corona cases in Finnish Österbotten the transmission of the infection has been traced to Sweden. Now the chief physician in Vasaraises his finger in a warning against trips to the neighboring country to the west.
Finnish chief physician: "All of our corona cases were infected in Sweden"

Do you get the point?! There is ample reason to assume that the death toll from Covid-19 in the other Nordic countries would be even lower if it weren't for Sweden letting the virus roam free. You are not only killing your own citizens, you are killing people in neighboring countries, too.

Now get up off your ass and get with the programme!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 01:11 AM   #983
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Meanwhile in Sweden

Quote:
Chefläkaren Thomas Brezicka säger till DN:
– Vi ser en antydan till ökning av nyinskrivna, det är helt klart ett trendbrott att den inte fortsätter att minska. Något har hänt. Därför riktar vi en vädjan till allmänheten om att fortsätta vara försiktiga.
Sahlgrenska larmar om oroväckande trendbrott: ”Smittan ökar på nytt i samhället” (Dagens Nyheter.se, May 27, 2020)
Translation:
Leading doctor Thomas Brezicka says to DN:
We see a clear trend towards a rising number of new hospitalizations. It is clearly a break in the trend that it doesn’t continue to drop. Something has happened. That is why we appeal to the public to keep on being careful.
Sahlgrenska (University Hospital) sounds the alarm about disconcerting break in the trend: "The contagion in the society is increasing again

Quote:
Smittspårningen i Sverige är otillräcklig – en mer aktiv spårning skulle kunna få ner antalet nya covidfall, anser professor Tove Fall.
Men Folkhälsomyndigheten menar att den typen av smittspårning bara är genomförbar i regioner med få sjuka.
Professorn: Tryck ner covid-19 med aktiv smittspårning (Dagens Nyheter.se, May 28, 2020)
Translation:
Tracing of infections is insufficient in Sweden – active tracing could bring down the number of new corona cases, professor Tove Fall thinks.
But the Public Health Agency thinks that this kind of tracing is only feasible in regions with few sick persons.
Professor: Suppress Covid-19 with active tracing of infections

Quote:
Både Region Västra Götaland och Uppsala larmar om att kurvan över antalet inlagda patienter med covid-19 stiger igen.
Varför är fortfarande oklart.
– Det kan bero på ändrat beteende, säger Sara Byfors, enhetschef vid Folkhälsomyndigheten.
Regionerna larmar – kurvan vänder uppåt (Aftonbladet.se, May 28, 2020)
Translation:
Both region Västra Götaland and Uppsala warn that the curve of hospitalized Covid-19 patients is rising again.
The reason why is still unclear.
- It may be due to a change in the way people behave, says Sara Byfors,
Regions warn – the curve is rising
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 04:20 AM   #984
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I think there are serious questions around why the death rate in Britain is even worse than in Sweden, despite the fact that we locked down. My own view is that there is something in the observation that Swedes tend to be a bit stand-offish anyway, and I think that soft social distancing was in place relatively early. I also think that Sweden wasn't seeded with nearly so much virus from international travel, as Stockholm isn't the international hub that London is.

I do think there was a deliberate attempt to seed virus across Britain in a (very) misguided early effort to get the epidemic over and done with by the summer. I think letting football fans fly in to big matches from areas that were already suffering high levels of viral prevalence was part of this, and I think Cheltenham played a big part because as well as causing a big uptick in local cases this seeded the virus across rural Britain as racegoers from far afield took it home with them. It was said that the virus was introduced into my region, hundreds of miles away, by people who attended Cheltenham.

It may be that the lockdown in Britain has only taken the top off the huge spike that was building from that early strategy. It's also not been nearly as rigorously enforced as it should have been, with police fussing about people sitting on benches in parks, but ignoring house parties. I don't know what's going to happen going forward. Johnson seems to have no grasp of the issues at all and to resort to his usual tactic of saying the first lie that comes into his head if he's pressed. He's far more interested in what the headlines say than actually suppressing the virus, and of course he has headline writers all too happy to indulge him.
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Old 29th May 2020, 05:51 AM   #985
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I see Taiwan has had no new cases for 45 days although there are still some people in hospital. They're considering opening up the country internally once they've gone 56 days (8 weeks) with no new cases.

What's the reason Taiwan is so favoured that mere western European nations like Sweden and Britain could never have aspired to that outcome?
Taiwan's really small, though.
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Old 29th May 2020, 06:59 AM   #986
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think there are serious questions around why the death rate in Britain is even worse than in Sweden, despite the fact that we locked down. My own view is that there is something in the observation that Swedes tend to be a bit stand-offish anyway, and I think that soft social distancing was in place relatively early.
One of my fathers co-workers who comes from Ethiopia said that, when he mentioned to his Sister who lives in Detroit, that people were "socially distancing" in the town i live in she responded with: can they really socially distance any more than they already have done?

While there are of course exceptions, Swedes are generally quite asocial compared to other peoples.
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Old 29th May 2020, 07:10 AM   #987
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Taiwan's really small, though.
Taiwan's population is 23.78 million people.

Sweden's is 10.23 million.

Taiwan's not really small, unless you are talking about area, in which case Taiwan's population is far more densely packed than Sweden, which you would think causes more widespread infections.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th May 2020, 08:19 AM   #988
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
... Taiwan's population is far more densely packed than Sweden, which you would think causes more widespread infections.

It has done so almost everywhere else.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 08:24 AM   #989
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I do think there was a deliberate attempt to seed virus across Britain in a (very) misguided early effort to get the epidemic over and done with by the summer. I think letting football fans fly in to big matches from areas that were already suffering high levels of viral prevalence was part of this, and I think Cheltenham played a big part because as well as causing a big uptick in local cases this seeded the virus across rural Britain as racegoers from far afield took it home with them. It was said that the virus was introduced into my region, hundreds of miles away, by people who attended Cheltenham.

If this is actually true, I hope that evidence will appear in the form of an email or something similar.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 08:33 AM   #990
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It has done so almost everywhere else.
Yep. Pretty much. Japan's main outbreaks were, surprise surprise, in Tokyo, Osaka, Nagoya and Fukuoka - the big cities and surrounding areas. Maybe the only one that was a little bit unusual was Hokkaido where the infections seemed to be pretty spread out.

Anyway, I have seen it argued by a lot of people that South Korea, Singapore, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan (!) don't count because of small sizes, island nations, easy to control, etc... unlike Belgium (!), San Marino (!), Italy, UK (!), Sweden etc....

Something doesn't add up for me yet. I don't think Japan can be considered exemplary in its government response (the shutdown of schools may be one area where something worked). That said, tracing seems to have been a pretty effective part of controlling the virus, even if they didn't do much testing.

It leads me to think that much of the best responses to this virus could come at a grassroots level, either co-ordinated and encouraged from above (such as in South Korea which for me is still the gold standard response), or more or less taken up by the citizens autonomously, which I think Japan and Hong Kong have done.

Also, while I hate to keep harping on the same theme, I believe (and will be interested to see what concrete evidence emerges), that early, ubiquitous use of face masks have made a big difference.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th May 2020, 08:43 AM   #991
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
If this is actually true, I hope that evidence will appear in the form of an email or something similar.

It's actually quite an easy inference to make when you piece together what was being said at the time. Public Health Scotland was predicting 88,000 deaths (a median estimate taken from the NERVTAG modelling which was too high but in accordance with what was known at the time) before the middle of July. One of the documents I've seen talked about 50% of the cases occurring in a three-week period at the height of the outbreak.

We were also told that at some point in the future everyone over 70 years old was going to be required to go into isolation in their own homes for a period of 12 weeks. At the same time one of the experts said "there will be a beginning, a middle and an end to this."

Graham Medley on TV said that his preference was to shield the elderly and then have "a nice big epidemic" among all the non-vulnerable people, at which point the elderly and vulnerable could then come out again. This would have killed about 400,000 of the non-vulnerable people, and then killed a high percentage of the vulnerable when they emerged to mix again with the population in which the disease had become endemic. That was so brain-dead and so psychopathic that I could scarcely believe what I was hearing.

And then we add to that the known facts that airports were kept open with no health checks at all and passengers allowed to enter the country freely from areas where the virus was already well established such as Italy, Spain and Germany. (There was some very limited quarantining of passengers from Wuhan itself early on.) Large gatherings were not only permitted to continue but were encouraged, because "we want people to catch the virus so as to build up immunity."

Apart from the Public Health Scotland document which I only know about because my own doctor told me in an email, the rest is all in the public domain, some of it on camera.
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Old 29th May 2020, 08:58 AM   #992
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Graham Medley, one of the 23 scientists on SAGE:

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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:00 AM   #993
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's actually quite an easy inference to make when you piece together what was being said at the time.

Man, I hope they live to regret it. I hope they'll be put on trial at The Hague.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 29th May 2020 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:04 AM   #994
dann
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Quote:
SVT har tidigare avslöjat hur Arbetsmiljöverket anpassat sig efter påtryckningar från kommunernas arbetsgivarorganisationen SKR, genom att backa från ett hårt krav på både visir och munskydd vid allt patientnära arbete. SKR har med stöd av Folkhälsomyndighetens rekommendationer i stället velat att frågan om munskydd ska avgöras inför varje enskilt arbetsmoment.
Myndighetens ledning har i olika sammanhang förnekat att man skulle ha backat. Men i ett internt mejl som SVT tagit del av beskriver chefsjuristen Anna Varg hur man måste släppa det hårda kravet för att ”om möjligt linjera med Folkhälsomyndigheten”, och för att ”inte få en situation där olika myndigheter ställs mot varandra, samhällets budskap uppfattas som motsägelsefullt och vi får en svår debatt att hantera.”
Myndigheten ville slippa ”svår debatt” om munskydden – framgår av raderat mejl (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Translation:
SVT has revealed how the Swedish Work Environment Authority has bowed to pressure from the employer organization of the municipalities (SKR) by backing away from a demanding both face shields and masks when performing any kind of work in close contact with patients. Backed up by recommendations from Public Health Agency, SKR has wanted the question of wearing masks to be decided for every individual working procedure.
In different contexts, the leaders of the Authority have denied having backed away. But in an email shared by the SVT, the leading attorney Anna Varg describes how they have to let go of the demand to “get in line with the Public Health Agency if possible”to avoid “a situation where different authorities are confronted with each other and the message from the society is seen as contradictory and a serious debate ensures that becomes hard for us to handle.”
The authority wanted to avoid “tough debate”about face masks – according to erased email


Folkhälsomyndigheten står fast vid svenska coronastrategin (SVT.se, May 28, 2020)
The Public Health Agency sticks with the Swedish corona strategy


Quote:
Sveriges tidigare statsepidemilog Annika Linde ställer sig kritisk till den svenska coronastrategin.
– Jag förstår inte hur man kunde stå och säga att beredskapen var god när den i själva verket är usel, säger hon.
(…)
Enligt Annika Linde var ett av myndighetens betydande snedsteg att man till en början utgick från säsongsinfluensan när man bedömde hur man skulle ta sig an coronaviruset.
– Det har visat sig att coronaviruset inte alls beter sig som influensan. Det sprider sig långsammare och har en längre inkubationstid. Det gör det är svårare att upptäcka och att uppnå immunitet i befolkningen, säger hon.
Med facit i hand hade det varit bättre om Sverige efterliknat sina nordiska grannländer och stängt gränsen och satsat på testning och smittspårning i mycket högre utsträckning, säger Linde.
Tidigare statsepidemiolog: Det fanns ingen strategi för äldrevården (SVT.se, May 28, 2020)
Translation:
Sweden’s former national epidemiologist Annika Linde criticizes the Swedish corona strategy.
-I don’t understand how one could claim that the preparedness was good when it was actually terrible, she says.
According to Annika Linde, one of the important mistakes of the Agency was that, at first, when they estimated how to handle the the coronavirus, they assumed that it was like the seasonal flu.
-As it turns out, the coronavirus doesn’t behave like the flu at all. It spreads slower and its incubation period is longer. This makes it more difficult to detect and harder to achieve immunity in the population, she says.
With the facts discovered, it would have been better if Sweden had emulated its Nordic neighbours and closed the border and relied on testing and tracing to a much higher degree.
Former national epidemiologist: There was no strategy for the care of seniors


Antallet af indlagte falder i Danmark – Ingen nye døde (EkstraBladet.dk, May 29, 2020)
The number of hospitalized corona cases in Denmark decreasing – No new deaths

Coronavirus - countries (Worldometers, May 29, 2020)
Deaths per million (Total deaths)
Sweden: 431 (4,350)
USA: 313 (103.418)
Denmark: 98 (568)
Finland: 57 (314)
Norway: 44 (236)
Iceland: 29 (10) - Iceland down to 1 (!) active case.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:09 AM   #995
Rolfe
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Graham Medley, one of the 23 scientists on SAGE:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

That's the one. Muddled thinking which essentially adds up to "we can't do anything, there's no point, so we won't bother. Hundreds of thousands are going to die."
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:12 AM   #996
dann
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Ny beregning: Grænseåbning vil føre til flere smittede (TV2.dk, May 29, 2020)
New calculations: Opening the borders will lead to more infections
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:13 AM   #997
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That's the one. Muddled thinking which essentially adds up to "we can't do anything, there's no point, so we won't bother. Hundreds of thousands are going to die."
Yeah, seriously. If the world had acted like South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore etc... we would probably have been able to squash this. A few months of inconvenience, no doubt. But then it would be over. There was never any need to assume it had to get everywhere and had to become endemic.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:25 AM   #998
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This evidence session in front of the Science and Technology Committee of parliament is illuminating. There's a huge amount of arse-covering going on, although with relatively little material available to cover said arse.

Video/audio stream - Transcript

The blame for giving up contact tracing (in England) on 12th March is that the virus was flaring up all over the country because of multiple introductions from a number of countries (thanks to the open borders and no health checks). Because of that they didn't have enough contact tracers or testing capacity (thanks to not having tried to expand either capacity).

One set of blame goes to those who wouldn't close the border. The other part of it is a bit like the owners of the Titanic saying it was unfortunate that people drowned but there weren't enough lifeboats, shrug.
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Last edited by Rolfe; 29th May 2020 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:30 AM   #999
dann
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Gränsen mellan Norge och Danmark öppnas (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
The border between Norway and Denmark will reopen

Inrikesministern: ”Ett problem att hela Norden inte är öppet” (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Secretary of the Interior: ”It’s a problem that the whole Nordic region isn’t open” – Yeah, maybe to you, but not to the Nordic region

Inga svenska turistbesök i Grekland (SVT.se, May 29, 2020 – 17:11)
No Swedish tourists to visit Greece

Ny kartläggning: Många har jobbat utan skydd inom äldrevården (SVT.se, May 29, 2020)
Many have been working in the elderly care without PPE – Tourists from France, Spain, Great Britain and Italy are banned, too
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 29th May 2020, 09:36 AM   #1000
dann
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
One set of blame goes to those who wouldn't close the border. The other part of it is a bit like the owners of the Titanic saying it was unfortunate that people drowned but there weren't enough lifeboats, shrug.

But when enough people have drowned or learned to swim, we can look forward to herd drowning immunity. Our calculations say some time in late August, maybe.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 29th May 2020 at 10:16 AM.
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