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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 7th May 2020, 05:35 AM   #161
Mumbles
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Big, big difference.


Video.
Nah. We had the recording of Zimmerman literally chasing Martin down, and 911 recordings of Martin yelling for help. Yes, it was "just" audio, but still.

We also had his reenactment of Martin seeing his gun, which Zimmemrman was lying on top of.
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Old 7th May 2020, 05:47 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, yes. When threatened, there's the well known "fight or flight" response. It's not so much a choice as a reaction. He picked "fight". That didn't turn out so well, but we'll never know how "flight" would have turned out. You can't outrun a bullet.
He tried that, hard to outrun a truck.
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:00 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
"Oh noes, here's a picture of him with his middle fingers raised! Thus, he must have been a violent thug that attacked these two innocent white guys, please ignore the recording of him trying to escape! He must have run away, and then ran back and punched them in the face from behind!"
Expect some minor discipline issue from his time in High School to be brought up as certain proof of 'wanton thuggery'.

But, remember, you have to cry for the poor southern white man first!
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:03 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I have noticed an interesting kind of apologetics for patently **** and or dumb behaviour lately. Saw it with Trumpís disinfectant comments where the most hyperbolic or pedantically literal interpretations of the event are attacked ferociously and the clear facts of the case ignored. We see it here too. Absolutely bad takes should be held to account but I am taking issue with a dishonest propaganda game.
There's an obscure Monty Python sketch from one of their later seasons where a bunch of 19th century poets are meeting with the Prince but they end up insulting him several times, but then try to get one of the other poets to explain how the insult is actually praise, until one of them calls the Prince being like a Dose of the Clap and the final poet just gives up. This is what comes to mind when I see these increasingly pathetic justifications for outright lynching and horrid decisions by the President.

http://www.montypython.net/scripts/oscar.php
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:03 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's awful! Who said such a horrible thing?

*scans thread*

Hm. Nobody said such a thing. Closest I can find is when you asked me:



And I responded:



Nothing to deserve a horribly unjust thing happening. But it might happen anyway. Especially if you run straight into them and try to wrestle a shotgun from one.

Oh, and you say the 911 caller was lying, I assume? Arbery was just out jogging, he wasn't in the empty house, and it wasn't an 'ongoing thing'? How do you know he was lying to 911 dispatch?

Does the lying about other posters bother you at all? Seems like it should.
For pete's sake, you even quoted yourself!!!!

Quote:
Don't run down the street towards them unarmed and attack them with your bare hands. Something predictably bad might happen.


Why don't you just say it was because of what he was wearing?
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:36 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Going out on a limb: maybe no worse than the outcome chosen? No?




I would think so. But the State of Georgia seems to allow it. Open carry laws, and the guys were legal. Hard to see on the video, but it looks like shotgun boy is holding level and perpendicular to Arbery when he runs up to the truck. The first time the gun points in Arbery's direction is when they meet at the front of the truck, when it was go time for both of them.
And that's the only defense I can imagine for them. They have to say, "We were not threatening him by blocking his path and drawing our guns, because our guns were not pointed at him."

I think it will be a tough sell to a jury.
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:42 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
See, you could not be more mistaken. This story has everything to do with trespassing.

Arbery's trespassing on the day of, and trespassing previously on video, led to two individuals independently identifying him as the trespasser previously caught on video. If he would have chose not to trespass, he could have continued his routine jog through the neighborhood like he had been doing for years, according to his mother and neighbors, but he didn't. His trespassing precipitated a confrontation and now he's dead because of it.
I'm pretty sure their lawyers will advise against bringing that up in court, because it is utterly irrelevant to anything except their state of mind, but their state of mind won't justify their actions in the eyes of the law.

They threatened the jogger with a gun. That is illegal except under certain narrow conditions, none of which existed during the confrontation. That makes them criminals. Generally, when someone commits a crime, and, during commission of the crime a person end up dead, the criminal is held culpable for the death.

Unless they can convince the prosecutor or the jury that they didn't actually threaten the jogger, they don't have a legal leg to stand on.
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:48 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
I don't understand. Can people in parts of the USA actually walk around and/or accost people with a loaded shotgun in their hands like they're in Mad Max or something? I'd assume this to be a pretty serious crime even without the killing, but I guess I'm wrong?
You are correct, although correct with an asterisk.

It is indeed perfectly legal to walk around an awful lot of parts of the USA with a loaded shotgun.

It ceases being legal if you use that shotgun to threaten someone. The specific crime involved is named differently in some jurisdictions, but the common name for it is "assault with a deadly weapon". (The crime of assault occurs when a person is threatened, not when a person is attacked.)

Generally, if you "accost" someone, and during the course of accosting them you display a weapon, prosecutors and juries will consider it a threat, even if the gun is not specifically pointed in their direction.
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Old 7th May 2020, 06:49 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Legally though? Does anyone of the locals bat an eye? This feels so bizzare to me. If I travelled to the US (Georgia for example) and saw someone with a gun in their hand, my first thought would be that a mass shooting is imminent and that I need to get the hell out of there.
See the pictures of the protestors at the Michigan capital last week. They were posing with their loaded weapons outside the door of the legislative chamber. All perfectly legal.


ETA: Which in my opinion is completely nuts, but …..God Bless America.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:04 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You are correct, although correct with an asterisk.

It is indeed perfectly legal to walk around an awful lot of parts of the USA with a loaded shotgun.

It ceases being legal if you use that shotgun to threaten someone. The specific crime involved is named differently in some jurisdictions, but the common name for it is "assault with a deadly weapon". (The crime of assault occurs when a person is threatened, not when a person is attacked.)

Generally, if you "accost" someone, and during the course of accosting them you display a weapon, prosecutors and juries will consider it a threat, even if the gun is not specifically pointed in their direction.
The concept of brandishing is well understood in the criminal system, even in states where open carry is legal. Intimidating someone through the display of a weapon is understood as an assault, like you say.

Brandishing includes a variety of behaviors short of actually pointing a gun at someone. Actions that a reasonable person would understand as a intimidating display of a weapon is considered brandishing. Something like simply moving a hand to the butt of a holstered pistol, or, I dunno, demanding someone to stop while holding a shotgun at the ready, is well understood to be a brandishing of weapons.

Setting up a roadblock for the sole purpose of confronting him while openly armed is something the DA totally elides in his explanation of not bringing charges. He frames it as inexplicable event that Arbery might attack the armed man, not mentioning that this was the second time that they had attempted to block Arbery with their truck and stop him. Shotgun man got out because the first time, Arbery kept running.

The police report, by the words of the killers themselves, is quite clear that they forced this confrontation. https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...mized/full.pdf
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:39 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Citizens arrest is widely understood to be a legally risky proposition. Private citizens are not granted the same broad immunity to make mistakes of fact like the police.

A private citizen is facing a lot more strict liability than a cop.

Except maybe in Georgia.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:44 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The concept of brandishing is well understood in the criminal system, even in states where open carry is legal. Intimidating someone through the display of a weapon is understood as an assault, like you say.

Brandishing includes a variety of behaviors short of actually pointing a gun at someone. Actions that a reasonable person would understand as a intimidating display of a weapon is considered brandishing. Something like simply moving a hand to the butt of a holstered pistol, or, I dunno, demanding someone to stop while holding a shotgun at the ready, is well understood to be a brandishing of weapons.

Setting up a roadblock for the sole purpose of confronting him while openly armed is something the DA totally elides in his explanation of not bringing charges. He frames it as inexplicable event that Arbery might attack the armed man, not mentioning that this was the second time that they had attempted to block Arbery with their truck and stop him. Shotgun man got out because the first time, Arbery kept running.

The police report, by the words of the killers themselves, is quite clear that they forced this confrontation. https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...mized/full.pdf
If they are allowed to force the confrontation and allowed to use guns in the process of a citizens arrest, then is it still brandishing?
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:47 AM   #173
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Youtube link to the video.

It's hard to tell, but playing it back at 0.25x speed, it appears that McMichael takes aim at Arbery as he's running down the road, before Arbery veers off the road and before they get into the scuffle. Starting around 6 seconds mark.

That takes the instigation of violence well before Arbery charges and might explain why Arbery would suddenly change course into the shoulder, and why he might feel the need to fight in the following moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIve50vSeLQ

This frame looks like a man with the shotgun raised to me. It's too grainy to see the gun, but his arms seem to be holding something in a firing stance. Arberry is still several yards away and is jogging down the middle of the road.

https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ?t=7
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #174
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Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians, admit that this just straight up murder (without pointless "okay but first we have to define the exact kind of murder" for no reason that matters), or start writing insane fan fiction to create alternative universes to justify it.
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Youtube link to the video.

It's hard to tell, but playing it back at 0.25x speed, it appears that McMichael takes aim at Arbery as he's running down the road, before Arbery veers off the road and before they get into the scuffle. Starting around 6 seconds mark.

That takes the instigation of violence well before Arbery charges and might explain why Arbery would suddenly change course into the shoulder, and why he might feel the need to fight in the following moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIve50vSeLQ

This frame looks like a man with the shotgun raised to me. It's too grainy to see the gun, but his arms seem to be holding something in a firing stance. Arberry is still several yards away and is jogging down the middle of the road.

https://youtu.be/fIve50vSeLQ?t=7
The video has been removed from youtube. (Inappropriate or offensive to some viewers.)
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Old 7th May 2020, 07:57 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The video has been removed from youtube. (Inappropriate or offensive to some viewers.)
It may require login for age verification.

It's embedded in this article and is still working for me without logging in, this might work.

https://www.gpbnews.org/post/leaked-...tional-outrage

This shows him being shot, so be warned.

Edit. Turned the res up. You can see him raising the shotgun to the shoulder at 7 seconds, well before Arbery veers off the road.
Arbery veers off the road and the camera man loses the frame, likely because he is down range of a raised shotgun.

Arbery attacking him after this did not start the violent encounter, because the man was aiming a shotgun at him immediately prior.

Unambiguous.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:02 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians, admit that this just straight up murder (without pointless "okay but first we have to define the exact kind of murder" for no reason that matters), or start writing insane fan fiction to create alternative universes to justify it.
He can be justified in defending himself and the shooters can be justified in trying a citizens arrest, and it can still not be murder. There doesn't need to be a party at fault.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:05 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again either you try to sell some insane idea that the guy had some legal/moral/logical responsibility to surrender himself to the armed civilians,
And I will say it again: white guys armed with shotguns chasing him in a pickup.

In what world is that NOT a threat? They weren't police, he wasn't committing a crime so they weren't stopping anything, they were chasing a black guy who was out jogging with shotguns.

In Georgia.

And he is supposed to just surrender?

Yeah, right.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:08 AM   #179
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Okay, here's a question I'm going to love watching the apologist twist and turn their fan fiction in on itself to explain.

How were most lynching not just simple "citizens arrests gone bad" by the arguments being put forth in this thread?
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:09 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sure if you're goal is to make murdering black people legal.

Okay, here's a question I'm going to love watching the apologist twist and turn their fan fiction in on itself to explain.

How were most lynching not just simple "citizens arrests gone bad" by the arguments being put forth in this thread?
Who says they weren't?
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:11 AM   #181
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It's easier to tell if you watch the video, you can see the glare frame by frame, but McMichael raises the shotgun on Arbery as he's jogging down the road. Arbery then veers off the road and the camera man loses the frame (likely because he is in the line of fire)

Arbery was still jogging at a medium pace at this point, and looks to be at least 10-15 yards behind the truck.

The DA's characterization of Arbery initiating force at the front of the truck is a total fiction. Even in open carry backwaters like GA, aiming a shotgun at someone is well understood to be an assault.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:14 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
https://i.ibb.co/9stf2yJ/raised.png

It's easier to tell if you watch the video, you can see the glare frame by frame, but McMichael raises the shotgun on Arbery as he's jogging down the road. Arbery then veers off the road and the camera man loses the frame (likely because he is in the line of fire)

Arbery was still jogging at a medium pace at this point, and looks to be at least 10-15 yards behind the truck.
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy in the bed of the truck also looks like he is pointing his pistol at Arbery in that frame.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:15 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And he is supposed to just surrender?
Now the fun part is watching how elaborate the apologist's fan fiction is gonna have to get so they can keep saying that without directly saying it.

Because yeah there's no way to square that circle. Either this is outright murder or you're arguing the guy should have surrendered.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:18 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy in the bed of the truck also looks like he is pointing his pistol at Arbery in that frame.
harder to say. Later in the video it seems like he is holding a phone to his head with on hand and fumbling with the pistol in another.

The video may be too grainy to clearly see the pistol. I can just barely pick out the shotgun barrel, and only because it makes an obvious arc as McMichaels takes aim at Arbery.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:19 AM   #185
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I don't think the moral compass here points anywhere near a hairsplit between "He had one gun pointed at him" and "He had two guns pointed at him."
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:23 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
harder to say. Later in the video it seems like he is holding a phone to his head with on hand and fumbling with the pistol in another.

The video may be too grainy to clearly see the pistol. I can just barely pick out the shotgun barrel, and only because it makes an obvious arc as McMichaels takes aim at Arbery.
What I can see is a raised arm. I assumed it was holding a gun, but it would be consistent with holding a phone as well.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:24 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I don't think the moral compass here points anywhere near a hairsplit between "He had one gun pointed at him" and "He had two guns pointed at him."
It could change who was charged. If the man in the pickup truck is pointing a gun at the jogger, he is committing a crime. If not, then he is merely a witness to a crime.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:27 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay, here's a question I'm going to love watching the apologist twist and turn their fan fiction in on itself to explain.

How were most lynching not just simple "citizens arrests gone bad" by the arguments being put forth in this thread?
My impression is that most lynchings involved taking someone who had already been arrested from the jail to kill them. But that's neither here nor there, really.

The sad, frustrating part about this is that I think they'll get off. Why? Because he fought back. At trial the defense will just make the argument that the shooter was in fear for his life at the moment he shot the guy - which was probably true. That's all they have to do. Get one member of the jury to buy into it - one out of twelve in an area with plenty of racists who pine for the old days.

The rest of it just won't matter once a lawyer starts to argue before a jury. The lawyer will say something along the lines of: "They were fighting over a gun - what was my client supposed to do, just let the man he was fighting with have the gun?" The lawyer will just hit on that, over and over.

They'll just confuse and obfuscate over how the fight actually got started, and focus on the fight itself.

It sickens me, but I think they'll get off.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:29 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It could change who was charged. If the man in the pickup truck is pointing a gun at the jogger, he is committing a crime. If not, then he is merely a witness to a crime.
Yes because running down a black guy with a gun isn't a crime until you raise the gun.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:30 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Now the fun part is watching how elaborate the apologist's fan fiction is gonna have to get so they can keep saying that without directly saying it.

Because yeah there's no way to square that circle. Either this is outright murder or you're arguing the guy should have surrendered.
Oh yes, the argument is that he should have surrendered, and because he didn't, he was killed. Because, hey, he was just asking for it.

Seriously, the argument is that a black jogger getting chased by white guys with shotguns should just surrender to them. It's almost like they are the authority and he is just a ******.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:30 AM   #191
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Gotta admit, this is entertaining as hell. A veritable army of scarerows ITT.

No one on the thread is saying this is Arbery's fault. Is that in dispute?

No one is saying that he should have surrendered to a citizens arrest. Got that, kids?

No one is saying that the hillbilly bigots had any legal , moral, ethical, etc justification for their actions. Clear enough?

The only peripheral issue is, as Suburban Turkey and MeadMaker point out, a tactical one. Arbery took a run at a truck full of armed crazy rednecks. That will get a brother killed right pronto, I hear.

One guy at close range...maybe try to control the gun if unarmed. Multiple guys though? No way. You're going to lose, damn near guaranteed.

Can you guys walk me through your pearl clutching to say what part of that is so offensive?
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:33 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Gotta admit, this is entertaining as hell. A veritable army of scarerows ITT.

No one on the thread is saying this is Arbery's fault. Is that in dispute?

No one is saying that he should have surrendered to a citizens arrest. Got that, kids?

No one is saying that the hillbilly bigots had any legal , moral, ethical, etc justification for their actions. Clear enough?
No because you say all that... and then you keep talking.

We're all familiar with your "I'm totally not saying........ but" routine.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:33 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes because running down a black guy with a gun isn't a crime until you raise the gun.
Crime or not, as I said above, it is certainly a THREAT

They created a threat, and when he fought back (his right) they killed him, claiming he was a threat to them.

This is such ********.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:34 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes because running down a black guy with a gun isn't a crime until you raise the gun.
It would be a lot easier to get a conviction with a raised gun, although the very fact that he retrieved the gun before following the jogger might be enough.

Generally, following someone in a car wouldn't be considered a crime. Blocking their path by using a car may very well be, although it would be easier to convict the driver than a passenger. It's all about what you can convince a jury. If I believe, even mistakenly, that a person is a suspect in a burglary, no jury in the world would convict me for making a 9-1-1 call and then following the guy until the police showed up. If I attempt to detain the guy by blocking his path with my truck, then I'm more likely to be convicted. If I point a gun at him, then the chance of my being convicted goes way, way, up.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:39 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It would be a lot easier to get a conviction with a raised gun, although the very fact that he retrieved the gun before following the jogger might be enough.
Yes will know. Getting white people convicted for murdering black people will be difficult.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:39 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
No because you say all that... and then you keep talking.

We're all familiar with your "I'm totally not saying........ but" routine.
My position is consistent. Yours relies on argumentum ad scarecrowbuim.

Is there some benefit you glean in lying about others arguments? I don't see it.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:42 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My position is consistent.
Yes it is. 100%.

Everytime a black person is killed by a white person the black person's action must be analyzed and nitpicked to death and back.

You have been 100% consistent on that.

Oh you're just doing a "tactical analysis" because "he took on a truck of armed rednecks." Do you even hear yourself? They ran him down on foot while they were in a vehicle. What was he supposed to do sprout goddamn wings and fly away?

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Old 7th May 2020, 08:49 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes it is. 100%.

Everytime a black person is killed by a white person the black person's action must be analyzed and nitpicked to death and back.

You have been 100% consistent on that.

Oh you're just doing a "tactical analysis" because "he took on a truck of armed rednecks." Do you even hear yourself? They ran him down on foot while they were in a vehicle. What was he supposed to do sprout goddamn wings and fly away?
Run perpendicular to the road.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:56 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If they are allowed to force the confrontation and allowed to use guns in the process of a citizens arrest, then is it still brandishing?
Placeholder
... reply shifted to post 205.
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Old 7th May 2020, 08:58 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes it is. 100%.

Everytime a black person is killed by a white person the black person's action must be analyzed and nitpicked to death and back.

You have been 100% consistent on that.
You're a liar. Never once.

Most recently, on Guyger: I called her an indisputable Murder2. No fault for Botham Jean at all, even any microscopic triviality. You had me confused with another poster there, but that's another dumbassery. On the Welfare Check thread, same. The cop murdered her. I don't even recall arguing any other black person killed by a white one.

You're a liar.

Quote:
h you're just doing a "tactical analysis" because "he took on a truck of armed rednecks." Do you even hear yourself? They ran him down on foot while they were in a vehicle. What was he supposed to do sprout goddamn wings and fly away?
They were roadblocking ahead of him. I see means of escape to the left and right.

You seriously think the tactical move is to rush them? Virtually guaranteed death.

That does not mean it is even a little tiny bit his fault. It was not. Even if he was a burglar or whatever, it DOES NOT MATTER. Rednecks can't be roadside executioners in any scenario short of an active shooting or the like, full stop. Are there smaller words I can use for you?
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