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Tags police incidents , police misconduct charges , racism incidents

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Old 20th May 2020, 12:12 AM   #121
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Ah, now I'm picking up the sarcasm, too.

Is there any particular reason you feel that incivility is your best approach to this incident?
I see that mere reference to the fact that racists exist now constitutes incivility. It is therefore now possible to exclude any discussion of racism from civil discourse. How very Orwellian.

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Old 20th May 2020, 12:50 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
As a former cop could you please apologise for your ingrained racism. How many times did you pull over/stop/harass and arrest an innocent person of colour?

Following on from that how many times did you "explode into violence" and wail on an innocent black person?

Don't try and weasel out of this we want answers, after all "The cops are racist, their basic statistics prove it" and you were a cop and a cop, like a tiger, don't change it's stripes.

Y'know what I think there is mileage in a new thread for this question.
Where did I mention race? Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote instead of going off in all directions with your guns blazing.

BTW - I have nothing to apologize for. In a near 25 year career I had one complaint laid against me and that was by a bar bouncer who complained that I embarrassed him in front of his fellow bouncers and bar patrons as I loudly told him that he was causing too many problems with his heavy handedness and should be fired. He was fired.
His two fellow bouncers agreed with me and gave statements to that effect. Eleven patrons who saw what happened and heard the exchange also offered their support to me but only three statements were taken. I was cleared. The bouncer remained fired and I continued to be welcomed during my solo walk-throughs of the bar by both staff and patrons.

Since you asked - as a member of Royal Canadian Mounted Police there were very few black people in the areas I was stationed. I only arrested one Afro-American for being part of a two man hit team who kidnapped a pimp out of Vancouver for the purposes of killing him. Both surrendered peacefully when I arrested the pair of them at a campsite with the pimp in the trunk of their stereotypical green Lincoln Continental (yep - they were even dressed like they came directly from central casting!).

I did work in small towns with large populations of First Nation peoples though. I usually had no trouble carrying out my duties as I earned respect through open and honest communication and using force only when necessary. I also coached youth hockey, basketball, baseball, and joined whatever local service clubs were operating in the towns. That way the community got to know me as an individual outside of my job.
Trust me - when it is 1:00 AM and the local bar is getting out and 80-100 well-oiled patrons are leaving - I better have the respect of the populace because many times I was by myself and my nearest backup was at home in bed.

I know the job. I know when my fellow officers become too much like the orcs they are supposed to be protecting everyone from.

The idea of "command authority" and demanding instant compliance has wormed its way into too many police officers. Some out of no proper training - some because they are being trained that way.
Whatever the reason - the idea of police officers treating each situation like it is a life threatening ordeal that they will be lucky to escape from alive is becoming a terrible mindset I see too often.
As a cop you need to keep calm and de-escalate situations. Just because you have superior numbers does not mean that you should not worry about the situation escalating into a violent takedown.
Police officers should see violent takedowns for such offences as described in the OP as being a sign of poor policing - not as a victory for the "good guys".

Edited to add: Just in case anybody has gotten the idea that I was working in some sort of Andy Griffith's town of Mayberry - during my career I was shot at twice and stabbed once resulting in a collapsed lung. Although they were small towns - they were not idyllic by any means. One town that had an area population of 600 people had nine murders in one year when I was there in the 1980s.
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Old 20th May 2020, 02:07 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
Lot of white people in this thread going [Dave Chappelle white person voice] Oh, dear, there is something not right. There must be more to the story.

Yeah. There isn't. Dollars to dog turds that if the TV purchaser was white, the cops help him carry it out to his car.
He was returning the TV. Why would anyone help him carry it out?
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Old 20th May 2020, 02:10 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He was returning the TV. Why would anyone help him carry it out?
How many white patrons returning a TV would have the cops called on them?
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Old 20th May 2020, 03:08 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Where did I mention race? Perhaps you should read what I actually wrote instead of going off in all directions with your guns blazing.

BTW - I have nothing to apologize for. In a near 25 year career I had one complaint laid against me and that was by a bar bouncer who complained that I embarrassed him in front of his fellow bouncers and bar patrons as I loudly told him that he was causing too many problems with his heavy handedness and should be fired. He was fired.
His two fellow bouncers agreed with me and gave statements to that effect. Eleven patrons who saw what happened and heard the exchange also offered their support to me but only three statements were taken. I was cleared. The bouncer remained fired and I continued to be welcomed during my solo walk-throughs of the bar by both staff and patrons.

Since you asked - as a member of Royal Canadian Mounted Police there were very few black people in the areas I was stationed. I only arrested one Afro-American for being part of a two man hit team who kidnapped a pimp out of Vancouver for the purposes of killing him. Both surrendered peacefully when I arrested the pair of them at a campsite with the pimp in the trunk of their stereotypical green Lincoln Continental (yep - they were even dressed like they came directly from central casting!).

I did work in small towns with large populations of First Nation peoples though. I usually had no trouble carrying out my duties as I earned respect through open and honest communication and using force only when necessary. I also coached youth hockey, basketball, baseball, and joined whatever local service clubs were operating in the towns. That way the community got to know me as an individual outside of my job.
Trust me - when it is 1:00 AM and the local bar is getting out and 80-100 well-oiled patrons are leaving - I better have the respect of the populace because many times I was by myself and my nearest backup was at home in bed.

I know the job. I know when my fellow officers become too much like the orcs they are supposed to be protecting everyone from.

The idea of "command authority" and demanding instant compliance has wormed its way into too many police officers. Some out of no proper training - some because they are being trained that way.
Whatever the reason - the idea of police officers treating each situation like it is a life threatening ordeal that they will be lucky to escape from alive is becoming a terrible mindset I see too often.
As a cop you need to keep calm and de-escalate situations. Just because you have superior numbers does not mean that you should not worry about the situation escalating into a violent takedown.
Police officers should see violent takedowns for such offences as described in the OP as being a sign of poor policing - not as a victory for the "good guys".

Edited to add: Just in case anybody has gotten the idea that I was working in some sort of Andy Griffith's town of Mayberry - during my career I was shot at twice and stabbed once resulting in a collapsed lung. Although they were small towns - they were not idyllic by any means. One town that had an area population of 600 people had nine murders in one year when I was there in the 1980s.
Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to respond.
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Old 20th May 2020, 03:24 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The story has already changed from the tv not fitting in the car to TV and son arriving home with TV, mom sending son with tv from home back to the store.
No the story always had 2 events.
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Old 20th May 2020, 03:26 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The first thing that came to my mind is that a 65in TV couldn’t fit in a Lexus SUV? I was able to fit a 75in one in my smaller Subaru SUV.

But that’s the only thing that doesn’t make sense. Harassment and assault of blacks doing nothing wrong by police, is SOP in the US.
There's a lot of variation in SUVs to be fair, I can fit a full size under counter kitchen appliance in the back of my Mk2 RAV4 without removing or folding the back seats, you'd struggle to get a single full size suitcase in the back of my wife's 3 door Grand Vitara despite the fact that it's footprint is as large, if not larger.
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:23 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This attitude is every bit as bigoted as the attitude it condemns.

We have arrived at the point where, when we discuss these things, we need one big thread for all of them, not one each, because that would flood the board

Imagine if we were doing the same for airline crashes or botched heart surgery or foodstuffs with pathogens?
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:36 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Now you're just stereotyping individuals based on statistics.

I know people that do that for a living.

They're called actuaries.
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:43 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Seriously. I don't doubt any part of the story.

All I want to know is, what the hell happened between "we went to return the TV" and "four cops beat the crap out of us at the returns counter".
But you're certain it's not just plain racism, right?

Quote:
And also, while I don't doubt they returned it, I am kinda curious why.
Because they can? I don't think they need to justify it to you, if that's the contract with the vendor. They returned the TV because they can.

Perhaps they thought '**** this, we just don't need the hassle, we'll buy a tv elsewhere', but it doesn't matter. People return TVs without being assaulted by policemen every day




Quote:
Statistically speaking, racist cops usually hang out at most Sam's Club return counters and beat up most black customers most of the time, but who's counting?

- ponderingturtle, probably

Is anyone counting? Are there official figures? Somehow I doubt it - if shooting people isn't recorded then I doubt a simple beating warrants record.
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Old 20th May 2020, 04:49 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
No, I want to see how far this goes before somebody snaps and actually operates a search engine.
And come up with a different source to yours that's reported subtly differently so we can argue about that for ages?

How about you make the claim, you supply the evidence.

"Go google it yourself" is a statement made by a man losing an argument.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:31 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Perhaps, perhaps not.

Yell me, do you believe the statement issued by the Des Peres Department of Public Safety ? That may, or may not, exist ?
I don't go down the rabbit hole with trolls. You won't get any further responses.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:48 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
And come up with a different source to yours that's reported subtly differently so we can argue about that for ages?

How about you make the claim, you supply the evidence.

"Go google it yourself" is a statement made by a man losing an argument.
This is about the actual existence of alternate stories, ones with more information than the one provided in the OP. I just said they exist and before I could respond I got accused of "making up and pulling out of your arse!"

An alternate link was even provided by another poster before that accusation was leveled.

Yes, it's industrial grade stupid.
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Old 20th May 2020, 05:56 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
I don't go down the rabbit hole with trolls. You won't get any further responses.
Whoa ! Witty rejoinder, absolutely devastating.

So I'll just put you down for "What statement ?"

Even though it's been linked to twice in this thread.
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Old 20th May 2020, 06:06 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
This is about the actual existence of alternate stories, ones with more information than the one provided in the OP. I just said they exist and before I could respond I got accused of "making up and pulling out of your arse!"

An alternate link was even provided by another poster before that accusation was leveled.

But rather than just post the link you went all 'google it yourself'. As I say, the mark of a man losing an argument. The form is clear, you make the claim, you provide the evidence. If someone's missed something, then the posts are all conveniently numbered to enable you to reference them.


Quote:
Yes, it's industrial grade stupid.
Yes, yes it is. <CTRL> + C then <CTRL> + V is such a hassle...
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Old 20th May 2020, 06:17 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Again, I am not sure what you are saying has changed.





Here is the story as I understand it.



He buys the TV. He finds it doesn't fit in his SUV, takes it back and asked them to hold it and then came back. When he comes back to retrieve it an employee suspects him of stealing it but another employee confirms that he owns the television. when putting it back in his car a police officer suspects him of stealing and again an employee sets him straight.



When the son gets home, he and his mother decide to return to the store to return the TV which is where the arrest and the events on camera happen.



That is the story as I first heard it and it is, as far as I know, the story still.



Now what part of that has changed?


You are right and I was wrong. Thank you.
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Old 20th May 2020, 07:35 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But you're certain it's not just plain racism, right?
No. Like I said,

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I assume the grievance claimed in the lawsuit is legitimate, but there seems to be a YUGE chunk of context missing from the story.
Quote:
Because they can? I don't think they need to justify it to you, if that's the contract with the vendor. They returned the TV because they can.
You're confusing curiosity with a sense of entitlement.

You seem committed to ignoring or misunderstanding what I've said, and then attacking me on the basis of that ignorance or misunderstanding.

Quote:
Perhaps they thought '**** this, we just don't need the hassle, we'll buy a tv elsewhere', but it doesn't matter.
I agree that it doesn't matter, but this probably not what they thought. They'd already bought the TV. Money had changed hands, and the TV was already in their home. The hassle was over. If they thought they didn't need more hassle, the last thing they would have done is load the TV back in their car and take it back for a return.

Quote:
Is anyone counting? Are there official figures? Somehow I doubt it - if shooting people isn't recorded then I doubt a simple beating warrants record.
Should I ask you if you're sure it's true?
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Old 20th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
No. Like I said,


You're confusing curiosity with a sense of entitlement.

You seem committed to ignoring or misunderstanding what I've said, and then attacking me on the basis of that ignorance or misunderstanding.


I agree that it doesn't matter, but this probably not what they thought. They'd already bought the TV. Money had changed hands, and the TV was already in their home. The hassle was over. If they thought they didn't need more hassle, the last thing they would have done is load the TV back in their car and take it back for a return.
But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.



Quote:
Should I ask you if you're sure it's true?
Sure what's true? The bit directly above your quote was a question. I suspect police beatings are recorded with no more vigour than police shootings. I have no idea, which is why it's framed as a question followed by a musing, not in any way as a statement of fact.


EDIT:

I'm a big fan of 'what are we missing here', and I really hope there's something here that makes sense of this, but, given the past history of US LEO's and their interactions with minorities, I'm afraid I find it a reasonable, working assumption that US cops were racists and decided to just go with that, confident that none of their colleagues will dobb them in (Something that seems to happen in a vanishingly rare number of cases, if at all) and that their superiors and union will duck, dodge, pip dive and duck to get them off a charge and that the very, very worst that will happen to them is that they will have to go find a job in the city down the road.

Were there any sort of robust and honest investigation of any of the many previously reported instances of policemen assaulting innocent minorities, my view would be different. If there were a whole slew of officer reports every time a policeman hides drugs on someone or shoots someone or beats someone up then my underlying view might change. But there isn't. For every single incident of policemen being 'bad cops' while other policemen watch them do it, the sum total of 'blue on blue' reporting is so close to zero as to be pointless.

These people are wearing uniforms also worn by people who have assaulted and killed minorities with impunity for the last 50 years which is incidentally the same uniform worn by those'good cops' who have singularly failed to police their own. In light of this, it is not fantastic to me to believe that these policemen assaulted this man because he was a black man with a big telly and they didn't like it.
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:06 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.





Sure what's true? The bit directly above your quote was a question. I suspect police beatings are recorded with no more vigour than police shootings. I have no idea, which is why it's framed as a question followed by a musing, not in any way as a statement of fact.
I'm glad we got all that cleared up.
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:13 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
But they did because they could. As I say, it doesn't matter.
I'm interested in this part, the reason being that in the UK you'd be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here.

The best outcome you'd probably get is a credit note to use against something else in the store/chain.

If it's the same stateside then perhaps that is where the upset that led to the row that led to the beatdown started?
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:15 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm glad we got all that cleared up.

Cleared it up some more now. Although the source may be disuptable.

From here:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/249850.pdf


"There are no comprehensive statistics available on problems with police integrity, and no government entity collects data on all criminal arrests of law enforcement officers in the United States. "
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:19 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm interested in this part, the reason being that in the UK you'd be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here.

The best outcome you'd probably get is a credit note to use against something else in the store/chain.

If it's the same stateside then perhaps that is where the upset that led to the row that led to the beatdown started?
It is generally the same stateside.

Here's the actual Sam's Club policy:

https://www.samsclub.com/content/returns
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:22 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I'm interested in this part, the reason being that in the UK you'd be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here.
What specific circumstances did you mean?

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Old 20th May 2020, 08:23 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Cleared it up some more now. Although the source may be disuptable.

From here:

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/249850.pdf


"There are no comprehensive statistics available on problems with police integrity, and no government entity collects data on all criminal arrests of law enforcement officers in the United States. "
Nice work! Have a bro fist.

(ó ╹◡╹)=ó
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:35 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What specific circumstances did you mean?

Dave


The circumstances surrounding the beatdown handed to Marvia and Derek Gray.

The specific circumstances that led directly to the beatdown are somewhat vague and I wonder if the refusal of a full/partial/credited refund under the conditions of sale have anything to do with it?
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:40 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post


The circumstances surrounding the beatdown handed to Marvia and Derek Gray.

The specific circumstances that led directly to the beatdown are somewhat vague and I wonder if the refusal of a full/partial/credited refund under the conditions of sale have anything to do with it?
I'm just trying to understand what about the circumstances would make it difficult to get a refund in the UK. John Lewis offer returns within 35 days for any reason, Hughes 14 days, Tesco 30 days, Sainsburys 30 days, Currys / PC World 21 days, and those are the only ones I've bothered to look at. The Sam's Club policy posted just upthread says just to bring an item in for a refund, and that they prefer a receipt but they'll try and process a return without one. (I can imagine it might be difficult to get a refund once the police started the confrontation, but that wouldn't explain why the confrontation started.) So why would you "be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here"?

Dave
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:49 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm just trying to understand what about the circumstances would make it difficult to get a refund in the UK. John Lewis offer returns within 35 days for any reason, Hughes 14 days, Tesco 30 days, Sainsburys 30 days, Currys / PC World 21 days, and those are the only ones I've bothered to look at. The Sam's Club policy posted just upthread says just to bring an item in for a refund, and that they prefer a receipt but they'll try and process a return without one. (I can imagine it might be difficult to get a refund once the police started the confrontation, but that wouldn't explain why the confrontation started.) So why would you "be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here"?

Dave
Oh sorry, I misunderstood and apologise that I got things wrong regarding the returns policies in the UK & US.

I hope that clears things up for you and stops whatever was going down here in it's tracks.
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Old 20th May 2020, 08:55 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
I hope that clears things up for you and stops whatever was going down here in it's tracks.
Just pointing out that same day refunds for no reason are not highly unlikely but rather pretty commonplace. No need to get suspicious about "whatever was going down here."

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Old 20th May 2020, 08:57 AM   #149
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
What specific circumstances did you mean?

Dave
Return of non faulty goods bought in person is at the retailer's discretion in the UK, although if the retailer has a published policy they are obliged to stick to it. Personally I don't think he'd have had much trouble, a lot of retailers will allow buyer's remorse returns, especially the bigger retailers, for customer service reasons and if the return was linked to a customer who felt (rightly or wrongly) that they'd been treated badly due being a member of a protected category most shops in the UK imho would go out of their way to try and be accommodating and allow a return.

Actually, even if you weren't in a protected category I think most shops will go out of their way for a customer who claims to have been badly treated these days.


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Old 20th May 2020, 09:03 AM   #150
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
[…]and if the return was linked to a customer who felt (rightly or wrongly) that they'd been treated badly due being a member of a protected category most shops in the UK imho would go out of their way to try and be accommodating and allow a return.
Jesus, yeah. My perception is that most major chains in the UK would bend over backwards to avoid that sort of negative publicity.

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Old 20th May 2020, 09:07 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm just trying to understand what about the circumstances would make it difficult to get a refund in the UK. John Lewis offer returns within 35 days for any reason, Hughes 14 days, Tesco 30 days, Sainsburys 30 days, Currys / PC World 21 days, and those are the only ones I've bothered to look at. The Sam's Club policy posted just upthread says just to bring an item in for a refund, and that they prefer a receipt but they'll try and process a return without one. (I can imagine it might be difficult to get a refund once the police started the confrontation, but that wouldn't explain why the confrontation started.) So why would you "be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here"?
There's a lot of variance hidden behind "try and process a return without a receipt." It could very well include "... but good luck trying to get anything back from an unboxed big-ticket item with no receipt."

If there's one thing I've learned from r/talesfromretail, it's that there's infinite opportunities for a returns process to rub someone the wrong way. The entire range from "clerk/corporate is being an ass" to "the customer is running a scam" is covered. In between are plenty of opportunities for a customer to become justifiably and unjustifiably frustrated with the process.

So I figure this could be something like the clerk asking for a receipt and the customer unreasonably venting their rage at earlier and unrelated treatment, triggering a call to the cops and unfortunate (racist?) escalation.

Or it could be something like the clerk thinking "a black man trying to do a return without a receipt, boop to that, calling the cops".

Or it could be something else entirely.

I assume the grievance described in the suit is legitimate, but I'm still curious about how it got to that point at the returns counter.

Were the racist cops just hanging around, spring loaded to throw a beating at the first black man who appeared upset?

Was there a minor but valid concern that got waaay overblown by racist pigs?
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:08 AM   #152
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Just pointing out that same day refunds for no reason are not highly unlikely but rather pretty commonplace. No need to get suspicious about "whatever was going down here."
Same day returns are probably common (I used tower in retail, but long ago).

However, in this case there are other circumstances. First, the incident when he tried to pick up the TV. Secondly, when they decided to return the TV, it was explicitly because they were upset about the first incident. So pretty easy to imagine things escalating from there.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:14 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There's a lot of variance hidden behind "try and process a return without a receipt." It could very well include "... but good luck trying to get anything back from an unboxed big-ticket item with no receipt."
I must have been missing the "without receipt" qualifier from this incident in the several articles I skimmed (I'm not sure how I got sucked into caring about this incident in the fist place).

When I worked retail, we'd be very skeptical about giving a refund on a high dollar value item without a receipt. But nowadays, I'd think all of that stuff is usually captured by the store when the purchase is made. The scanned TV barcode, the customer name from their credit card, and the time and date of the transaction all go into the store's database. I guess the guy could have paid cash.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:20 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
However, in this case there are other circumstances. First, the incident when he tried to pick up the TV. Secondly, when they decided to return the TV, it was explicitly because they were upset about the first incident. So pretty easy to imagine things escalating from there.
I can see that the overall emotional temperature could have been pretty high, but in some ways that makes it worse from the store's point of view. If you've had a customer unjustly accused of theft in your shop, which accusation you've defended him from at the time, and then says he's bringing goods back because he's really upset at having been so accused, and you've got the faintest concept of good customer service, then you're going to do the best you can to make it easy for him in the hope that he eventually calms down, realises it wasn't the store's fault, and decides to shop there again. And for a policeman to then enter the situation and accuse him for a second time of a theft that the supposed victim specifically denied, you've got a perfect storm. The strange thing is not that he reacted angrily when the first officer tried to detain him; it's that anyone could have expected him to be perfectly calm and rational in the circumstances.

Dave
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:21 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I must have been missing the "without receipt" qualifier from this incident in the several articles I skimmed (I'm not sure how I got sucked into caring about this incident in the fist place).
Yeah, I've not noticed a source that says they didn't have a receipt. Is there one, or is it just the only reason anyone can imagine why the return might have been a problem?

Dave
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:31 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Yeah, I've not noticed a source that says they didn't have a receipt. Is there one, or is it just the only reason anyone can imagine why the return might have been a problem?
I can imagine several ways the return might have been a problem:

- No receipt

- Item is unboxed

- Item has damage

- Item is missing parts

- No item in box

- Customer becomes belligerent when clerk proposes to look inside the box to confirm the item and all parts are being returned

- Customer wants cash but the store refunds credit card purchases back to the card

- Customer wants a refund but the store is only offering store credit

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a douchebag

- There's no problem with the return, but the clerk is being a racist douchebag

- There's no problem with the return, but the customer is getting belligerent due to misplaced anger over previous incidents

Etc. It's a long list. I haven't even gotten into all the variations on (racist) cop hanging around the returns counter instigating things.

I assume the grievance described in the suit is legitimate, but I'm still curious about how it got to that point at the returns counter.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:35 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I can imagine several ways the return might have been a problem:
Agreed, these are all possible issues with the return, but am I right to say that we don't have a source credibly claiming that any specific one of these actually occurred?

Dave
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:44 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Just pointing out that same day refunds for no reason are not highly unlikely but rather pretty commonplace. No need to get suspicious about "whatever was going down here."

Dave
I was more concerned about a derail and endless to and fro-ing about retail return on both sides of the pond. Thanks for clarifiying,
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:55 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'm just trying to understand what about the circumstances would make it difficult to get a refund in the UK. John Lewis offer returns within 35 days for any reason, Hughes 14 days, Tesco 30 days, Sainsburys 30 days, Currys / PC World 21 days, and those are the only ones I've bothered to look at. The Sam's Club policy posted just upthread says just to bring an item in for a refund, and that they prefer a receipt but they'll try and process a return without one. (I can imagine it might be difficult to get a refund once the police started the confrontation, but that wouldn't explain why the confrontation started.) So why would you "be hard pushed to get a retailer to accept a return under the circumstances we see here"?

Dave
I worked at Sam's Club for eleven years as an electronics associate and wireless associate, and then almost three years as a Member Service associate with some marketing duties thrown in, until Jan 2018. I'm literally an expert and trained many people at the selling, and returning, electronics specifically. It was also my 'duty' (it was totally not my responsibility, but I could figure out systems better than the people whose job it actually was) several times to get video evidence off our systems to give to police (my favorite being the several times I pulled video off of the display video surveillance systems to help id people stealing video surveillance systems).

When someone buys a large tv they can't safely fit in their vehicle (there are times where the box will fit, but on larger sets it's best not to risk torquing them and cracking the screen in the middle), the process is to make a photocopy of the receipt and tape it to the box. The box is put locked in the 'cage' where Club Pickup carts are also stored. I don't know the layout of this club specifically, but it appears they were pointing towards where the 'cage' is in the video before the cops come in. The woman in the green vest is likely the COS (check-out supervisor) who also has duties such as being responsible for the keys to the cage (Member Services like I was tends to have a copy as well, and of course the Club Pickup shopper).

The customer keeps the original receipt and we would make explicitly clear that whoever came in with the original copy of the receipt would be the person we would release the item to. In the case of televisions the receipt matches not only with all the data you'd expect such as register, time, amount, member, but also the serial number of the specific television. This is also on the box. We had a log in the cage with who put a hold cart in, and who took it out when, so if an item was released and someone else came in for the same one later we could track down what happened. My club was especially good at this though (and I'm told we were outstanding at tracking down issues and keeping these policies working, but we were also a small club with the record for longest time without an accident due to staffing being inadequate, but more adequate than elsewhere). It's probably this club was not utilizing this log.

Now I don't know exactly what happened here. Some people would take these processes as personal accusations, especially regular business members. I often had to enforce rules against very angry employees of business members, and often saved the businesses in question a lot of problems with their employees trying to steal from them.

However, that doesn't sound like what was going on here. It doesn't even sound like the normal 'don't you trust me!' trying to pick up mom's tv without the receipt. For whatever reason some associate or just the cop convinced themselves this gentleman was trying to take someone else's tv, despite the process help ensuring that doesn't happen. They might have thought they were trying to get a second tv with the same receipt. But again, the receipt has the serial number that you match to the copy AND the box, that is in a locked cage. This or the member taking umbrage at the standard security process and the cop's spurious accusation of theft the first time pissed the member off enough to just want to return the tv. It is possible they let him take the tv without the normal process because the second associate remembered the transaction. I doubt that unless that club is WAY more lax than policy directs.

I could go through the return process (even without the receipt we could use the membership number to pull up enough information to process a return if the physical item is being returned, if we can't find it in system then it either can't be returned, or we make judgement calls that often involved taking back clothing years old and not even from Sam's Club to please some Karen). It doesn't matter though, because they didn't even get that far it looks. The Membership desk isn't in view in the video, so it is possible the TV is already there, but then the argument should be happening at the desk (which could also be in the direction they're pointing) if that were the case.

The members are upset, but I've dealt with way worse many times. I've seen small old women deal with worse many times. To be fair, the COS seems to be dealing with emotional members pretty well.

Now we're outside my actual expertise, but when the cop instant insists on cuffing the man he done goofed. It's sad that minimum wage Membership desk people and a bit better paid COS can deal with emotional members like that every day, but a cop comes in an he needs cuffs to deal with the upset dude. Sure, I can't hear what upset dude is saying, but if it wasn't enough to get the associates defenses up, it wasn't enough to need cuffs. I've dealt with members who needed cuffed, and no associate would have the posture here if that were the case.

If the associates were trying to eject the members from the club and deny the return for cause, that will come out. If the members were making threats, that will come out. Sam's Club has horrible associate practices and defer to member to a criminal degree, but that doesn't look to be the case here yet.

I'm provisionally going with an associate or two got it in their heads these people 'must' be scammers and ignored evidence to the contrary (I've had to deal with that a lot in the past too, and clean up from another associate's 'gut feeling'). It's easy enough for such associates/management to steamroll everyone else if no one stands up and say 'no, they're right, policy says do the return'. I've also been the one refusing to process what I found to be a clearly bad-faith return (missing parts or an out-of-date associate return usually, and I didn't want my numbers on the return record). If that isn't the case, it will be trivial to show. The documentation that Sam's Club has would have falsified many of the assertions of these member if those assertions were in fact not true, so I'm going with everything up to the cop coming in and trying to cuff the guy as being as stated by the members.
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Old 20th May 2020, 09:57 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I figured it was something like that. Just trying to wrap my head around the idea of "we wanted the TV, we have the TV, Sam's Club had our back; let's ditch the TV and yell at Sam's Club". Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
When I read they returned the tv, my thought was they returned it so they wouldn't be in possession of it anymore. It had already caused them enough trouble, and they didn't want the "cop magnet" around anymore.

Pure assumption by me, but until we hear about it from the people involved, it's as good as anyone's assumption as to why they returned the tv.
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