ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags police incidents , police misconduct charges , racism incidents

Reply
Old 21st May 2020, 07:19 AM   #201
Leftus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,853
Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
There's a lot of variation in SUVs to be fair, I can fit a full size under counter kitchen appliance in the back of my Mk2 RAV4 without removing or folding the back seats, you'd struggle to get a single full size suitcase in the back of my wife's 3 door Grand Vitara despite the fact that it's footprint is as large, if not larger.
Not to mention the amount of crap people pack around in their vehicles. It's possible that they couldn't fit a TV in the back until they made some room by removing items from their portable garage.
Leftus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 07:22 AM   #202
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It seems to me that all of those things are potentially issues, even under the Sam's Club policy.
Lack of receipt wouldn't be an issue. The policies you link to said quite clearly that while a receipt is requested, it isn't required.

Store credit wouldn't be an issue, the policies you linked to said quite clearly that refunds were issues as cash or credit to the purchasing card, not store credit.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove a breach of rule 12
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Agatha; 23rd May 2020 at 12:59 PM.
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 07:26 AM   #203
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Are you suggesting that’s what happened this time?
No.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 07:28 AM   #204
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Lack of receipt wouldn't be an issue. The policies you link to said quite clearly that while a receipt is requested, it isn't required.
It says they'll do their best without one, not that there won't be issues. Based on my experience, and the many experiences reported by others, their best is going to vary depending on the nature of the item being returned. It's also likely to vary depending on the expectations of the customer.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 07:46 AM   #205
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It says they'll do their best without one, not that there won't be issues. Based on my experience, and the many experiences reported by others, their best is going to vary depending on the nature of the item being returned. It's also likely to vary depending on the expectations of the customer.
k.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:06 AM   #206
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But okay, whatever. We can still question why what happened in that video happened in that video. Why did it happen? Do you know?
Looks to me like he got angry but not violent or threatening, and the police decided this was sufficient justification to escalate the level of confrontation. It looks like classic "I am a cop and you will respect my authoritah!" behavior. Whether it would have happened if he'd been white is a question we can only speculate about. What I find interesting is that the family's lawyer is only pressing charges against the city concerning the injuries to his mother. My interpretation of this is that they don't see any prospect of finding a jury that could possibly find a police officer at fault for brutality against a tall, fit-looking black man, even though there's not even a vague indication that he was committing any crime or presenting a reasonable threat of committing one, but that maybe beating the crap out of a small 68-year-old woman is just a little bit beyond the pale. Again, I'm only speculating, and if other posters can offer examples of white shoppers being treated similarly I'd be glad to reconsider.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:08 AM   #207
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,007
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Remember, this happened in America, land of the free and home of the brave -

- where a white cop can harass and detain a black man for picking up trash outside his home;

- where a white cop can walk into a black man's apartment and gun him down while he is sitting on his sofa eating ice-cream

- where white cops can bust into wrong house (and by "wrong", I mean 10 miles away from the one they were looking for), looking for a black suspect they already had in custody and shot the black woman owner eight times in her bed, killing her

- where two white rednecks (one an ex-Cop) can gun down and kill black jogger in cold blood, and it takes a leaked video months later, and a public outcry before law enforcement are shamed into taking action.

So, what the **** ever gave you the idea that a cop even needs a good reason to intervene when a black man is having an argument in a shop - he's ******* black isn't he? Hell yeah!!! That is the only ******* reason he thinks he needs!!
Not familiar with two of your examples, but of the other two (Guyger and McMichaels), one is in prison for murder and the other two under arrest for same and awaiting trial. So the police pretty clearly can't do what you claim they can.

Also, in a nation of a third of a billion people, there are going to be occasional outliers of hateful injustice. Please don't insult all of us with that wide brush of yours.
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:12 AM   #208
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,458
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
My interpretation of this is that they don't see any prospect of finding a jury that could possibly find a police officer at fault for brutality against a tall, fit-looking black man, even though there's not even a vague indication that he was committing any crime or presenting a reasonable threat of committing one, but that maybe beating the crap out of a small 68-year-old woman is just a little bit beyond the pale. Again, I'm only speculating, and if other posters can offer examples of white shoppers being treated similarly I'd be glad to reconside.
Sounds like your mind is pretty well made up.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:14 AM   #209
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Sounds like your mind is pretty well made up.
Like I said, (a) it's only opinion and speculation, and (b) please offer me evidence that I'm wrong, and I'll take it seriously.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:17 AM   #210
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,458
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I used to work for a department store that had one of those no questions asked return policies. Employees were told to issue a slight challenge like "This brand isn't and has never been sold by this store" and if the customer didn't leave then either issure a refund based on the price tag, or make them an offer.

One big scam was in fragrances. A customer buys ( or steals ) a plastic wrapped bod with a bottle of perfume in it, somehow opens the plastic wrapper. takes out the box and bottle, removes the bottle and replaces it with something of similar weight as the bottle, usually a rock, reseals the plastic wrapper and returns the box with the rock in it for a full refund.

Sales associates wouldn't examine the wrapping and issue a full refund. Later someone else some back with the actual bottle of perfume and returns it saying " I tried it for a week and I hate it, sorry I threw out the box" and gets a refund.

Stealing things and returning them was par for the course.

Then there was the buy an expensive item of clothing, wear it for a while then return it for a refund with the insistence that" No, it's never been worn" scam.

Thieves and scammers knew how store security worked and store security knew that thieves and scammers knew how store security worked so there was this constant dance with both groups trying to stay one step ahead of each other.

Got a really obvious thief scoping the place out ? Don't pay too that person because they're a distraction for the real thief whose no too far behind. Sometimes store security would act and look like thieves so the real thieves would relax and ply their trade confident that the other thief will have store securities attention.
I remember similar scams from when I was in retail. We had this one couple that always came in and never bought anything. And surrounding that couple, a lot of stuff went missing (ex. clothes they tried on). One time and employee returning from lunch spotted them getting into a car that was full of merchandise, and a few times people saw strange bulges on their backs underneath their clothes, etc.

Eventually one of my coworkers was promoted to manager in a store in her home state, two states over. She reported that the same couple often visited her store with the same behavior.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:21 AM   #211
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I remember similar scams from when I was in retail. We had this one couple that always came in and never bought anything. And surrounding that couple, a lot of stuff went missing (ex. clothes they tried on). One time and employee returning from lunch spotted them getting into a car that was full of merchandise, and a few times people saw strange bulges on their backs underneath their clothes, etc.

Eventually one of my coworkers was promoted to manager in a store in her home state, two states over. She reported that the same couple often visited her store with the same behavior.
You do remember, don't you, that the TV that the Grays brought back was returned to them by the police and they weren't accused of any crime? Now, again, this is just speculation, but with the city facing a lawsuit for police brutality, I would expect them to do all they could to bring some kind of charges against one or other of the Grays. The fact that they haven't done so suggests that there wasn't any charge they could bring, and that further suggests that the Grays weren't involved in some nefarious scam but were just bringing back an item they'd legally purchased for a refund under the terms and conditions under which they purchased it.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:25 AM   #212
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Sounds like your mind is pretty well made up.
The main reason I'm not putting a lot of effort into questioning the violence is that it's pretty obvious that everyone has already got their answer figured out for that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:29 AM   #213
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,458
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
You do remember, don't you, that the TV that the Grays brought back was returned to them by the police and they weren't accused of any crime?
Just a couple of posts ago you said they were "accused by a police officer of committing a crime that had occurred only in that officer's imagination".

And even that is a questionable statement, since the articles I have seen suggested that an employee thought they may have been trying to steal the TV.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:40 AM   #214
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
Just a couple of posts ago you said they were "accused by a police officer of committing a crime that had occurred only in that officer's imagination".
Fair point. Substitute "charged with".

Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
And even that is a questionable statement, since the articles I have seen suggested that an employee thought they may have been trying to steal the TV.
OK, some people imagine that it may have happened in the employee's imagination too. There are some very imaginative people involved.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:41 AM   #215
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,844
Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I used to work for a department store that had one of those no questions asked return policies. Employees were told to issue a slight challenge like "This brand isn't and has never been sold by this store" and if the customer didn't leave then either issure a refund based on the price tag, or make them an offer.

One big scam was in fragrances. A customer buys ( or steals ) a plastic wrapped bod with a bottle of perfume in it, somehow opens the plastic wrapper. takes out the box and bottle, removes the bottle and replaces it with something of similar weight as the bottle, usually a rock, reseals the plastic wrapper and returns the box with the rock in it for a full refund.

Sales associates wouldn't examine the wrapping and issue a full refund. Later someone else some back with the actual bottle of perfume and returns it saying " I tried it for a week and I hate it, sorry I threw out the box" and gets a refund.

Stealing things and returning them was par for the course.

Then there was the buy an expensive item of clothing, wear it for a while then return it for a refund with the insistence that" No, it's never been worn" scam.

Thieves and scammers knew how store security worked and store security knew that thieves and scammers knew how store security worked so there was this constant dance with both groups trying to stay one step ahead of each other.

Got a really obvious thief scoping the place out ? Don't pay too that person because they're a distraction for the real thief whose no too far behind. Sometimes store security would act and look like thieves so the real thieves would relax and ply their trade confident that the other thief will have store securities attention.
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I remember similar scams from when I was in retail. We had this one couple that always came in and never bought anything. And surrounding that couple, a lot of stuff went missing (ex. clothes they tried on). One time and employee returning from lunch spotted them getting into a car that was full of merchandise, and a few times people saw strange bulges on their backs underneath their clothes, etc.

Eventually one of my coworkers was promoted to manager in a store in her home state, two states over. She reported that the same couple often visited her store with the same behavior.
I sometimes forget just how crappy some people are. It always amazes me.

I stole a few candy bars and such when I was like 13, and I legit am still haunted by guilt about it to this day.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:44 AM   #216
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 30,932
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
I stole a few candy bars and such when I was like 13, and I legit am still haunted by guilt about it to this day.
If we were in Georgia, could I arrest you now?

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 08:48 AM   #217
RedStapler
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

I stole a few candy bars and such when I was like 13, and I legit am still haunted by guilt about it to this day.
Please stop the virtue signaling. Thank you.
RedStapler is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:05 AM   #218
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,899
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If we were in Georgia, could I arrest you now?

Dave
I think he's saying it's ok to shoot him for that.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:07 AM   #219
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,754
Awful lot of anecdotes about shoplifting scams in thread about a man who did not, in fact, shoplift.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:13 AM   #220
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 26,542
I may have missed something in this thread, but I keep seeing speculation and reading stories about return scams (some of which are undoubtedly germane to the issue of return scams), but does anyone here actually know for a fact whether or not the people in question had documentation or receipts for the TV when they returned it? Not the usual speculation about what sometimes happens, or what they expect happened, or some dirt about their past, etc., but actual knowledge of what transaction was occurring?
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:26 AM   #221
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Awful lot of anecdotes about shoplifting scams in thread about a man who did not, in fact, shoplift.
Like most ISF threads, there wasn't much left to discuss after the first page or so, and naturally digressions have emerged.

You're complaining about the digressions, but you could have used that post to raise some central point from the OP that hasn't yet been discussed.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:27 AM   #222
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I may have missed something in this thread, but I keep seeing speculation and reading stories about return scams (some of which are undoubtedly germane to the issue of return scams), but does anyone here actually know for a fact whether or not the people in question had documentation or receipts for the TV when they returned it? Not the usual speculation about what sometimes happens, or what they expect happened, or some dirt about their past, etc., but actual knowledge of what transaction was occurring?
We don't know that for a fact. Anyone who asks (as you have done) gets a veiled (or not so veiled) accusation of racism thrown at them. That said, it's probably not too important.

I would like to know what the cops were told, and what they were thinking, in the run-up to the violence, but that's more out of curiosity/completionism, than any expectation of mitigating circumstances for their actions on video.

Last edited by theprestige; 21st May 2020 at 09:28 AM.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:50 AM   #223
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: It was Lothian's idea
Posts: 11,007
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We don't know that for a fact. Anyone who asks (as you have done) gets a veiled (or not so veiled) accusation of racism thrown at them. That said, it's probably not too important.

I would like to know what the cops were told, and what they were thinking, in the run-up to the violence, but that's more out of curiosity/completionism, than any expectation of mitigating circumstances for their actions on video.
This. As with all stories, at a bare minimum we need both sides opening arguments. Preferably some evidence to weigh.

This gig of skeptics running rampant with one side of the story is just jaw dropping
__________________

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 09:56 AM   #224
Skeptic Tank
Trigger Warning
 
Skeptic Tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,844
To me, it has always seemed the natural role of a skeptic to hear a story presented in the media as "horrible racist treatment of black people has happened again, black man beaten and/or killed for no reason at all!" and then say "Hmm, I bet there's more to this story"

I don't see why so many here want to shut down that sort of reaction to these stories.
Skeptic Tank is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 10:42 AM   #225
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 10,894
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Sorry
I'm sad because you're not wrong...
__________________
I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 11:57 AM   #226
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,754
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We don't know that for a fact. Anyone who asks (as you have done) gets a veiled (or not so veiled) accusation of racism thrown at them. That said, it's probably not too important.

I would like to know what the cops were told, and what they were thinking, in the run-up to the violence, but that's more out of curiosity/completionism, than any expectation of mitigating circumstances for their actions on video.
It strikes me as odd that these cops can't arrest an unarmed man without breaking 3 of his teeth and requiring him to get staples and stitches in his head.

Regardless of the justification for the arrest, this is poor work from professional law enforcement.

Edit: The false arrest claim is largely a separate issue from the grotesque overuse of force here.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 21st May 2020 at 12:07 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 12:02 PM   #227
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,071
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It strikes me as odd that these cops can't arrest an unarmed man without breaking 3 of his teeth.

Regardless of the justification for the arrest, this is poor work from professional law enforcement.
Hey they were perfectly capable of it, never question their competence. It is just much less fun.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 12:09 PM   #228
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,254
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Lack of receipt wouldn't be an issue. The policies you link to said quite clearly that while a receipt is requested, it isn't required.

Store credit wouldn't be an issue, the policies you linked to said quite clearly that refunds were issues as cash or credit to the purchasing card, not store credit.

Numerous others of you speculations contradict the supposed police reasoning that they believed the TV was stolen.

So you're in a strange position of being curious enough to type out a lot of speculation, but not curious enough to read your own link or the other source links that make your speculation pointless.

It reminds me a bit of your Michelle Obama post and your every post on issues of racism and police brutality. You work so hard to give a facade of reasonability to a desperate search to smear black people and liberals with any plausibly deniable attack.

I wonder if I can imagine some reasons you're like this:

Nah, I'll leave the exercises in imaginative BS to the experts like you.
This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back here. Shame there's no "Forensically dissecting the crap" Award.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 12:15 PM   #229
P.J. Denyer
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 7,254
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If we were in Georgia, could I arrest you now?

Dave
Arrest? You can point a shotgun at him and if he tries to stop you, shoot him, that's self defence*

* Minimum melatonin levels may apply, please consult your local Dulux Colour Store for confirmation.
__________________
"I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion

"Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills
P.J. Denyer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 12:42 PM   #230
johnny karate
... and your little dog too.
 
johnny karate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 12,939
Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
To me, it has always seemed the natural role of a skeptic to hear a story presented in the media as "horrible racist treatment of black people has happened again, black man beaten and/or killed for no reason at all!" and then say "Hmm, I bet there's more to this story"

I don't see why so many here want to shut down that sort of reaction to these stories.
Cool.

Here’s you insisting that a racist murderer was acting in self-defense despite all evidence to the contrary.

Tell us more about how skepticism works.
johnny karate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 02:48 PM   #231
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 26,542
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This. As with all stories, at a bare minimum we need both sides opening arguments. Preferably some evidence to weigh.

This gig of skeptics running rampant with one side of the story is just jaw dropping
I was thinking it works rather the other way too. The sorts who are always trying to justify such attacks have thrown in the possibility that what he was doing looked worse than it was, and thus that it's reasonable to go and smash his head in when he doesn't immediately kowtow like the thief he knows he isn't, for the second time in the same store.

In so many of these recent cases, it seems that the victim gets blamed for his attitude, or his belligerence, but how is one supposed to react when attacked for no good reason? There seems, for many, to be an assumption that if you're a ****** you ought to know you are running under a different set of rules, and have no right to be indignant.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 02:57 PM   #232
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I was thinking it works rather the other way too. The sorts who are always trying to justify such attacks have thrown in the possibility that what he was doing looked worse than it was, and thus that it's reasonable to go and smash his head in when he doesn't immediately kowtow like the thief he knows he isn't, for the second time in the same store.
I don't think I've seen anything like that in this thread. Do you have an example?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 03:10 PM   #233
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 14,652
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not familiar with two of your examples, but of the other two (Guyger and McMichaels), one is in prison for murder and the other two under arrest for same and awaiting trial. So the police pretty clearly can't do what you claim they can.
Rubbish.

The fact that they did it means they can do it. I said nothing about getting away with it without consequences. The point is, these things should not even be happening in the first place.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Also, in a nation of a third of a billion people, there are going to be occasional outliers of hateful injustice. Please don't insult all of us with that wide brush of yours.
If you believe the incidence of white cops killing black people are "occasional outliers", then you are living in a river in North East Africa, you are deluding yourself. Racism in the USA is pervasive and chronic, it infests the political alt-right and far-right. It also infests law enforcement from coast to coast, and this is especially so in the old south.

These sorts of things do not happen to people of predominantly one race or skin colour in any other free democracy in the world. How often do you see white cops gunning down innocent black people in Canada, or in France, UK, Italy, Germany, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Switzerland or any other country in greater Europe (which incidentally, have a combined population 50% greater than 'Merica!!?
__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Randy Bryce, U.S. Army veteran

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 03:12 PM   #234
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 14,652
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think he's saying it's ok to shoot him for that.
But only if he's black!
__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Randy Bryce, U.S. Army veteran

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 03:15 PM   #235
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 14,652
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Awful lot of anecdotes about shoplifting scams in thread about a man who did not, in fact, shoplift.
Yeah, but that man is black - that alone is enough to make some people suspicious and to come up with any irrelevant bollocks they can to put the heat on the "probably guilty of something" black man, while doing everything they can to make excuses for the "just doing his job" white cop who is wearing the halo.
__________________
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Randy Bryce, U.S. Army veteran

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 03:28 PM   #236
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,103
Most of us wondered "Maybe there is more to this story" in the first five minutes and then went and did a bit of research.

The ones saying "Maybe he was returning a box full of bricks" or "Maybe he was returning an old television set and bullying the clerk into not checking" don't appear to have done that research.
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 04:06 PM   #237
Robin
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12,103
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I may have missed something in this thread, but I keep seeing speculation and reading stories about return scams (some of which are undoubtedly germane to the issue of return scams), but does anyone here actually know for a fact whether or not the people in question had documentation or receipts for the TV when they returned it? Not the usual speculation about what sometimes happens, or what they expect happened, or some dirt about their past, etc., but actual knowledge of what transaction was occurring?
Do we have any reason to doubt that the transaction that was occurring was just as set out in the complaint?
__________________
The non-theoretical character of metaphysics would not be in itself a defect; all arts have this non-theoretical character without thereby losing their high value for personal as well as for social life. The danger lies in the deceptive character of metaphysics; it gives the illusion of knowledge without actually giving any knowledge. This is the reason why we reject it. - Rudolf Carnap "Philosophy and Logical Syntax"
Robin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 04:08 PM   #238
SuburbanTurkey
Illuminator
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 4,754
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I may have missed something in this thread, but I keep seeing speculation and reading stories about return scams (some of which are undoubtedly germane to the issue of return scams), but does anyone here actually know for a fact whether or not the people in question had documentation or receipts for the TV when they returned it? Not the usual speculation about what sometimes happens, or what they expect happened, or some dirt about their past, etc., but actual knowledge of what transaction was occurring?

Occam's razor cuts this one down pretty easily.

Both were arrested on the scene on suspicion of theft and the TV was seized by the police. Later, the TV was returned to the customers. While they charged the mother with interference and resisting arrest, no charges for any kind of theft were forthcoming.

It's hard to imagine a scenario where there was any evidence of theft and the police returning the TV and not charging them.

The simplest explanation is that the TV was not stolen.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 04:37 PM   #239
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 45,110
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Most of us wondered "Maybe there is more to this story" in the first five minutes and then went and did a bit of research.
It's the OP's job to do research on the items they post about.

Quote:
The ones saying "Maybe he was returning a box full of bricks" or "Maybe he was returning an old television set and bullying the clerk into not checking" don't appear to have done that research.
Life's to short to crawl through crappy news outlet websites trying to figure out what might have happened, just because someone's going to accuse you of racism if you don't. If shemp wanted to tell a complete story, or even have an accurate thread title, he could have done that.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st May 2020, 04:38 PM   #240
sir drinks-a-lot
Illuminator
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 4,458
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
If you believe the incidence of white cops killing black people are "occasional outliers", then you are living in a river in North East Africa, you are deluding yourself. Racism in the USA is pervasive and chronic, it infests the political alt-right and far-right. It also infests law enforcement from coast to coast, and this is especially so in the old south.
How did you learn so much about racism in the US living way over there in New Zealand? Do you have any way of qualifying your statement that racism is "pervasive and chronic" in the US? How about that it "infests law enforcement from coast to coast"? And finally that it's "especially so" in the South?
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:03 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.