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Tags Israel-Palestine conflict

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Old 13th September 2019, 12:29 AM   #161
Craig B
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When then was "Palestine" invented, and when it was invented, what did "Palestinian"refer to? That matter has been raised, but not resolved except by reference to the dimensions of oranges. What date may be assigned to that event?
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:40 AM   #162
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
When then was "Palestine" invented, and when it was invented, what did "Palestinian"refer to?
In the ancient times it was named for Phistilines, it wasn't used much until the modern era.

The meaning of the modern name Palestine was invented twice. Once in the 1920s by the British to describe the area of what is now Jordan, Israel and occupied territories. The name was repurposed in 1965 by Arab leaders, to describe the area west of the river Jordan, which at that point became the ancient homeland of the Palestinian, inhabited by them for thousands of years.

I'm not being sarcastic. That's how it happened.

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That matter has been raised, but not resolved except by reference to the dimensions of oranges. What date may be assigned to that event?
I'm not sure of the exact date, but there are only 365 possibilities. Good enough, I think.

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Old 13th September 2019, 02:20 AM   #163
Craig B
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For those who wish to inform themselves more accurately about the use of the placename Palestine, here is a timeline of historical references that include the name.

Last edited by Craig B; 13th September 2019 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 13th September 2019, 06:10 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
In the ancient times it was named for Phistilines
I've never heard of the Phistilines. Were they into Phisting?
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:08 AM   #165
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Palestine was certainly in common English by the time of the buildup to the First World War. Gertrude Bell and T.E. Lawrence both used the word often in their descriptions of the area.
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Old 13th September 2019, 07:53 AM   #166
Craig B
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Palestine was certainly in common English by the time of the buildup to the First World War. Gertrude Bell and T.E. Lawrence both used the word often in their descriptions of the area.
So did the writer Flavius Josephus in the first century CE, and the Emperor Hadrian in the second century, as did his successors up to the Muslim conquest in the seventh. The Muslims continued to use the name, in its Arabic version.
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Old 16th September 2019, 05:59 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Palestine was certainly in common English by the time of the buildup to the First World War. Gertrude Bell and T.E. Lawrence both used the word often in their descriptions of the area.
Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So did the writer Flavius Josephus in the first century CE, and the Emperor Hadrian in the second century, as did his successors up to the Muslim conquest in the seventh. The Muslims continued to use the name, in its Arabic version.
Yes, as a reference to an area.
The term 'Palestinians', up until 1948, referred to anyone living in that area, be they Arab, Jew, Muslim or Christian.
It was only after the creation of the state of Israel that it was used to mean 'Palestinian Arabs', as a separate nation.
As has been explained already, this is pure fiction. The Palestinian Arabs were never a distinct ethnic or national group, and indeed, many of those claiming to be dispossessed Palestinians were not from what is now Israel at all. A good number were migrants from other areas of Palestine, many were from other Arab countries, and some were not even Arabs at all.
The concept of "the Palestinians", meaning Palestinian Arabs, is a modern creation, used by the Arabs as a stick with which to beat Israel.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:02 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post

Zionism asserts that they and they alone are there entitled to self determination by reason of ethno-religious origin, be that to the detriment of non-Jews who are there by "mere" right of birth, property or descent. That is what is different about Zionism. That is what is wrong with it.
Having looked at Zionism, and also the Israeli Declaration of Independence, I can find no support for this idea. It is, in fact, specifically contradicted by the latter, and indeed by the Balfour Declaration. I'm also not sure that Zionism denies all other ethnicities the right to self-determination, and would like to see you provide some corroboration for that too.
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Old 16th September 2019, 06:27 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Why Germany? Jordan and Egypt lost "their" homeland to a country they invaded. Germany never ever came close to holding the territory.
We are going back to historic wrongs well the holocaust causing Israel to be created so clearly we need to establish the palestinian state there.


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Nonesensical diversions such as these just go to show the case for Palestine can no longer be coherently defended.

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You have convinced me ethnic cleansing is always the best solution.
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Old 16th September 2019, 10:07 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We are going back to historic wrongs well the holocaust causing Israel to be created so clearly we need to establish the palestinian state there.
Holocaust had very little or nothing to do with the establishment of Israel. At most it hastned the creation of the state by about ten years. At the time of the Balfour decleration, Adolph Hitler was a Gefreiter (Corporal) and Germany was an Empire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

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You have convinced me ethnic cleansing is always the best solution.
That wasn't my intent, but if that's your takeaway, that's fine by me.

Ethnic cleansing is the conflict between Israel and Palestine is going to end. The only question is who will be cleansing whom. It is Palestinian and Arab intrasingence that made it a certainty - that and the blatant refusal by the world to blame anyone but the Jews for it.

The moment you use comparible standards for both it becomes crystal clear who and what is keeping the conflict alive and impossible to settle.

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Last edited by McHrozni; 16th September 2019 at 10:10 PM.
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