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Tags Allan Kardec , life after death , spiritism , spiritualism

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Old 14th September 2019, 05:48 AM   #1641
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
You claimed you pleaded guilty. Did you forget posting that two days ago?
What are you on about now ? trying to find fault with my statements.

I said they did not proceed against me for harassment. I later pleaded guilty to nuisance calls.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:11 AM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
What are you on about now ? trying to find fault with my statements.

I said they did not proceed against me for harassment. I later pleaded guilty to nuisance calls.
That's a form of harassment.
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Old 14th September 2019, 07:58 AM   #1643
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's a form of harassment.
Maybe, but harassment and nuisance calls are two separate statutory offences.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:14 AM   #1644
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Dear Admin,
Thanks for tolerating me taking threads so far of topic to ramble about my experiences. I suppose you might be indulging me because I am a self confessed schizophrenic.
I actually find the process of writing about my experiences therapeutic, because I have not been able to discuss these things with people in the real world, and it has all been locked inside my head for many years.
The fact no one here believes my conclusions does not phase me much, but it is a relief to discuss it.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:19 AM   #1645
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Maybe, but harassment and nuisance calls are two separate statutory offences.
I believe you. I have in mind that both actions proceed from the same mens rea, but reading back through the last few posts it seems like the more salient point is which offense you avoided, versus which you pled guilty to. Your clarification seems entirely in order -- so cheerfully withdrawn.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:19 AM   #1646
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I am currently attempting to read the book,
' the faithful relation of what passed for many years between Dr. John Dee and some spirits'

It was first published in 1659 and the copy I have is a photocopy of the original old book. So it is quite difficult to read. But it shows there were people claiming to speak to spirits long before the Fox sisters in Victorian times.

Here is a modern text version of some of the book, which is much easier to read than the original.

http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/tfr/tfr.htm
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy

Last edited by Scorpion; 14th September 2019 at 08:40 AM. Reason: add link
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:24 AM   #1647
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am currently attempting to read the book,
' the faithful relation of what passed for many years between Dr. John Dee and some spirits'

It was first published in 1659 and the copy I have is a photocopy of the original old book. So it is quite difficult to read. But it shows there were people claiming to speak to spirits long before the Fox sisters in Victorian times.
There likely have been people claiming to speak to spirits for much longer. The Bible is rife with them, and they were not the first.

The reasons people see/hear spirits today are not new and are likely a feature of the human condition.
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:46 AM   #1648
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am currently attempting to read the book,
' the faithful relation of what passed for many years between Dr. John Dee and some spirits'
Have you considered reading more recent, pertinent and potentially helpful books?

This one, for example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Pe...e_Weird_Things

Or this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

Or, because this used to be the JREF forum, this one:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flim-Flam!
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Old 14th September 2019, 08:53 AM   #1649
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I actually find the process of writing about my experiences therapeutic, because I have not been able to discuss these things with people in the real world, and it has all been locked inside my head for many years.
I believe that. The problem of whether you're off-topic in this thread is, frankly, not mine to solve -- although it may be mine to deal with now that I've followed you on this tangent of a tangent. I had originally hoped to talk about the attitude of science as it relates to claims of spirits, but the only other claimant has fled. While you seem willing to talk about spirits, it is vastly conflated in this thread with your desire to recount the events that pertain to your history and medical diagnosis. So it appears I will not get what I want in this thread, and so be it. I can hardly compel other volunteer contributors to conform to my wishes.

The bigger problem is that while you may consider your contribution here to be cathartic or therapeutic to you, there are larger concerns. Therefore it is right for you to acknowledge them and wonder about moderation. This is a discussion forum, not a blog. The principal difference is that in a discussion forum, all contributors are presumed to have equal footing here. No one member owns or directs the discussion. Ignoring what others are saying in the thread, so that you can continue to enjoy a soapbox, is disrespectful to the other members. I suspect that many critics here are humanistically sympathetic to your plight, and are indulging because it is the compassionate thing to do to someone who is dealing with an uncommon challenge. But you should not necessarily expect that compassion. In addition to thanking the moderators for their forbearance, it would be appropriate to thank those critics who have stepped outside of their criticism to express sympathy and solidarity with the predicament that dominates your contribution here.

In a more narrow scope, this is a discussion forum for skeptics, meaning -- in my view -- that the discussion is likely to favor that particular philosophy, and is likely to take the form of a skeptical review of controversial claims. In your case, this will likely proceed in the form of an adversarial give-and-take, emphasizing critical thinking and the sort of evidence that would be admitted in settings where allegations of fact are tested with appropriate rigor. Your stipulated mental illness interferes with that process in that it becomes difficult to deploy anything but ad hominem claims and responses.

I'm not sure how this forum can carry on satisfying your needs while remaining true to its vested intent and the agreement among all its members. Even this particular bit of meta-debate really belongs in a different part of the forum.

Quote:
The fact no one here believes my conclusions does not phase me much, but it is a relief to discuss it.
The disbelief in your conclusions is not meant to have an emotional impact. It's meant to appeal to your sense of reason, which you constantly undermine by expressing what many people take to be symptoms of the mental illness you say you were diagnosed with. While it may be cathartic to you, it's frustrating to your colleagues and critics here. Your critics are not "constantly calling you insane." They are referring to this sort of "get out of jail free card" form of argumentation which does not mesh well with the kind of discussion most people are here to have, or legitimately expect of fellow members. It becomes especially concerning when you lapse into accusing people of being small-minded if they don't agree with your conclusions. Coming to a skeptics' forum to drop those finely-aimed accusations and then basking in the supposed therapeutic value of it is asking critics to endure your abuse for your benefit without just recompense.

Thence the questions from time to time asking why you're "really" here. You seem to crave the adversarial dynamic, but you vitiate the part of it where reason rules over the conflict and prevents it from becoming personal. I have formed several hypotheses for this and asked you about them. It may be wise of you to refuse comment, since all those hypotheses are wildly off topic. But if we're going to allow conversation regarding why you're here, what you hope to accomplish, and what you think your responsibility ought to be to the other members and to the spirit of the forum, then we ought to put all the cards on the table.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:34 AM   #1650
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
There likely have been people claiming to speak to spirits for much longer. The Bible is rife with them, and they were not the first.

The reasons people see/hear spirits today are not new and are likely a feature of the human condition.
Even in the so-called rational periods of human history there was strong belief in spiritualism, in various doctrinal forms. We have lately discovered the various ways in which unscrupulous characters have used the techniques of stage magic and stagecraft to fool unsuspecting and credulous people. They have even fooled scientists in some cases who don't understand stagecraft enough to devise protocols that detect fakery of that particular type. But because faking it is now part of the hypothetical landscape, it's something we suspect right off the bat.

It's not enough to say it's human nature to believe in spirits. It also appears to be human nature to take advantage of people who believe in spirits. So when a claimant says, "Why can't you just accept spirits as a possibility?" we have to say, "Because there are people actively lying about it." This is what rankles skeptics. Skeptics sometimes like to think of themselves as the consumer advocates in the marketplace of ideas. Ricardo admitted to making up stories. He's not the only one. These are the people who, in my opinion, ought not be permitted in the marketplace of ideas.
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Old 14th September 2019, 10:32 AM   #1651
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Even in the so-called rational periods of human history there was strong belief in spiritualism, in various doctrinal forms. We have lately discovered the various ways in which unscrupulous characters have used the techniques of stage magic and stagecraft to fool unsuspecting and credulous people. They have even fooled scientists in some cases who don't understand stagecraft enough to devise protocols that detect fakery of that particular type. But because faking it is now part of the hypothetical landscape, it's something we suspect right off the bat.

It's not enough to say it's human nature to believe in spirits. It also appears to be human nature to take advantage of people who believe in spirits. So when a claimant says, "Why can't you just accept spirits as a possibility?" we have to say, "Because there are people actively lying about it." This is what rankles skeptics. Skeptics sometimes like to think of themselves as the consumer advocates in the marketplace of ideas. Ricardo admitted to making up stories. He's not the only one. These are the people who, in my opinion, ought not be permitted in the marketplace of ideas.
You're right, I didn't explicitly say part of the human condition related to spirits was people unscrupulously exploiting other peoples credulity. How can it be otherwise? I agree that people use gods and spirits to control other people, to make them allow crap now for a promise of paradise after death.

As I said, the Bible is chock full of spirits and gods. Of course they don't exist. As, as I indicated, the Bible didn't start such manipulations.

Likewise, mental illnesses that allow supernatural beliefs are part of the human condition. And, it is the human condition for people to exploit their own or others mental illness or frailties for their own purposes.

All of it, the good and bad, the scrupulous and unscrupulous, are part of the human condition.

I didn't feel this lecture at this point would be useful.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:09 PM   #1652
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am currently attempting to read the book,

' the faithful relation of what passed for many years between Dr. John Dee and some spirits'



It was first published in 1659 and the copy I have is a photocopy of the original old book. So it is quite difficult to read. But it shows there were people claiming to speak to spirits long before the Fox sisters in Victorian times.



Here is a modern text version of some of the book, which is much easier to read than the original.



http://www.esotericarchives.com/dee/tfr/tfr.htm
Can save you the effort, you won't find any evidence in it for your spirit world.
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Old 14th September 2019, 05:26 PM   #1653
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Maybe, but harassment and nuisance calls are two separate statutory offences.
No. You have been lying non stop and confused your fabricated BS stories.

You claim you threatened your ex-employers lawyers that you would sue them (civil court) while simultaneously claiming you pleaded guilty (criminal court). You simultaneously say the police only cautioned you. Do your ex-employer's lawyers hang around at police stations?

You really need to keep notes when making up these stories.

I enjoyed your BS story about the telepathic office worker who was telepathically telling her co-workers to harass you. Yet in reality, when you were spying on them, listening outside their door, she had to close the door so you could not hear her talking to he co-workers.....which meant they were using normal spoken language.....and had no telepathy.
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:10 PM   #1654
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
No. You have been lying non stop and confused your fabricated BS stories.

You claim you threatened your ex-employers lawyers that you would sue them (civil court) while simultaneously claiming you pleaded guilty (criminal court). You simultaneously say the police only cautioned you. Do your ex-employer's lawyers hang around at police stations?

You really need to keep notes when making up these stories.

I enjoyed your BS story about the telepathic office worker who was telepathically telling her co-workers to harass you. Yet in reality, when you were spying on them, listening outside their door, she had to close the door so you could not hear her talking to he co-workers.....which meant they were using normal spoken language.....and had no telepathy.
What are you on about now?

When the lawyers wrote me a letter threatening me with harassment, I wrote back telling them I was not liable, and in that letter I said if my ex employers continued to refuse to answer me I would make a complaint about them for negligence and abusing a mentally ill person. (But I never did that because I had no evidence)

I said somewhere that the girl told the other workers what I was thinking using normal speech, not telepathy. It was only me she seemed to be using telepathy on.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 14th September 2019, 09:14 PM   #1655
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Can save you the effort, you won't find any evidence in it for your spirit world.
I am tempted to ask if you have read It Or if you are just making assumptions. But having read some of it myself it is pretty obscure, even in modern English, and the original old script is much harder to read.
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Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:29 AM   #1656
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am tempted to ask if you have read It Or if you are just making assumptions. But having read some of it myself it is pretty obscure, even in modern English, and the original old script is much harder to read.
Can't believe anyone interested in spirits and so on hasn't read it or at least extracts, it is a rather famous text.
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Old 15th September 2019, 07:44 PM   #1657
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am currently attempting to read the book,
' the faithful relation of what passed for many years between Dr. John Dee and some spirits' It was first published in 1659
John Dee died in 1609. You are reading a street vendors "libel sheet" (shock story) from half a century after he died. It isn't a book.

This is what you are reading
http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/Archive/Dee.html
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Old 17th September 2019, 04:07 PM   #1658
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Schizophrenia causes damage to the etheric body, due to the mental stress. This leads to all kinds of strange feelings. I felt fire flowing through me in the same places as the chakras. I felt like there were electric cobwebs floating over my skin. Eventually a medium told me my etheric body was loose, and the chakras miss aligned.
After a couple of years of having spiritual healing in a spiritualist church. (Healing which I could often feel as heat). I discovered I could channel healing energy through my own chakras. This eventually led me to be able to stop all medication, and study to become an electronics repair man.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I am telling you, the occult is real, and there is a spirit world.
Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Dear Admin,
Thanks for tolerating me taking threads so far of topic to ramble about my experiences. I suppose you might be indulging me because I am a self confessed schizophrenic.
I actually find the process of writing about my experiences therapeutic, because I have not been able to discuss these things with people in the real world, and it has all been locked inside my head for many years.
The fact no one here believes my conclusions does not phase me much, but it is a relief to discuss it.

Well once again you acknowledge being a schizophrenic, but persist with the notion that spirits and screwed up chakras are the root of the problem.

Your "conclusions" are not arrived at by analytical deduction as far as I can see, but rather as a consequence of faith based conviction in the existence of your spirits and chakras. The lack of belief displayed by other posters here should hardly be a surprise given this.

The schizophrenia you admit as being your affliction, is explanation enough for your experiences. Why complicate the issue by bring in all the woo?
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