ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags quantum mechanics

Reply
Old Today, 07:59 AM   #1161
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
19 September 2019 pittsburghjoe: A lying "What prevents spacetime from being the higgs field" question.
I already answered this. The Higgs field is a quantum field. Spacetime is an account of object positions and times . They are nt the same by definition !
What prevents spacetime mass from being the physical version of the higgs filed?
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:01 AM   #1162
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You know that flash you see when an atomic bomb goes off? That's binding energy being converted into photons.
Okay, you can see it when it is being destroyed. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a physical state.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:17 AM   #1163
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,137
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Okay, you can see it when it is being destroyed. It doesn't mean it doesn't have a physical state.
As I said, I don't speak gibberish.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:23 AM   #1164
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,861
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
As I said, I don't speak gibberish.
I do. Warn Mr. Ed that the dyslexic pendants can audit him!
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:26 AM   #1165
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
So energy is allowed to be invisible when observed on a physical object?
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:27 AM   #1166
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,861
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
So energy is allowed to be invisible when observed on a physical object?
X-Rays, gamma rays, infrared, ultraviolet, gravity, magnetism, beta decay...

...these are a few of my favorite things.
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:30 AM   #1167
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Higgs is about mass

claiming the missing mass is in energy form needs looked into.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:37 AM   #1168
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,861
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
Higgs is about mass

claiming the missing mass is in energy form needs looked into.
Higgs is about one type of mass, not mass in general: inertial mass. The mass that doesn't come about from binding energy or other sources. About 1% of mass, more or less. It's well-known, and has been for years, that other mass comes from other sources.

https://www.space.com/36857-higgs-bo...s-mystery.html
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:51 AM   #1169
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
blah, I don't buy any of this ****. Spacetime makes objects physical ..that's where all the mass comes from ..its physical form.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 09:11 AM   #1170
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
It doesn't actually have a speed limit: it has only one speed. A photon does not accelerate or decelerate.
It is a limit, it's how we know spacetime has a frame rate. Unobserved light probably doesn't have a limit.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:37 AM   #1171
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,220
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
It is a limit, it's how we know spacetime has a frame rate. Unobserved light probably doesn't have a limit.
If that were true, wouldn't observed light have wildly varying arrival times over the same distance?

Say you send a light pulse to a detector a mile away.

At the quarter mile mark, nothing is observing that light, right? So it could be traveling at any speed. Maybe it covers that quater mile in a picosecond. Maybe it covers it in a fortnight. Nobody's observing it. Same with the next quarter mile. Same with every unobserved point along its path of travel.

But whenever we test this, every single time, the light always arrives at its observer having gone the same speed over the entirety of its unobserved path.

You haven't really thought this through, and are making up ad hoc patches to the holes in your "theory" as you go along.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:03 AM   #1172
hecd2
Muse
 
hecd2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 721
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
What prevents spacetime mass from being the physical version of the higgs filed?
What prevents my Great Aunt Edith being the Sydney Opera House?
hecd2 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:47 AM   #1173
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 13,861
Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
What prevents my Great Aunt Edith being the Sydney Opera House?
Dress size.
__________________
Ideologies separate us. Dreams and anguish bring us together. - Eugene Ionesco
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:17 PM   #1174
Pope130
Illuminator
 
Pope130's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
Posts: 3,106
Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
What prevents my Great Aunt Edith being the Sydney Opera House?
"It's not impossible, just very very improbable."
Pope130 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:14 PM   #1175
jadebox
Graduate Poster
 
jadebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,567
I saw the comment about photons not being able to accelerate and I thought "but photons are affected by gravity which causes acceleration."

After a moment I had an "aha!" moment and recalled that some guy with funny hair came up with the idea a long time ago that gravity is manifested as a bending of spacetime. So, the photon follows a straight, unaccelerated, path though spacetime (even if it appears to have accelerated to a viewer).

Since the guy lived in a time before the internet, he couldn't post about his idea in a forum. Instead he wrote a paper in which he described his idea and showed how his idea was self-consistent and how it built on what we already knew about the universe. He proposed ways to test his idea. He expressed his idea mathematically. He later described his idea using analogies in way that made it easy for a mathematically-challenged person like me to understand.

Real science is pretty cool.
jadebox is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:21 PM   #1176
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If that were true, wouldn't observed light have wildly varying arrival times over the same distance?

Say you send a light pulse to a detector a mile away.

At the quarter mile mark, nothing is observing that light, right? So it could be traveling at any speed. Maybe it covers that quater mile in a picosecond. Maybe it covers it in a fortnight. Nobody's observing it. Same with the next quarter mile. Same with every unobserved point along its path of travel.

But whenever we test this, every single time, the light always arrives at its observer having gone the same speed over the entirety of its unobserved path.

You haven't really thought this through, and are making up ad hoc patches to the holes in your "theory" as you go along.
I don't think you understand what observed light is.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:35 PM   #1177
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,220
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I don't think you understand what observed light is.
I could say the same about you.

But fair enough. I'm pretty sure I don't understand what you mean by observed light. Could you explain it, please?

I think my scenario raises a clear problem. Light is not observed along most of its path of travel. Is its speed unlimited for most of its journey?
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:39 PM   #1178
Wolrab
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,545
Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
What prevents a house from being a road? They have nothing in common.


It doesn't actually have a speed limit: it has only one speed. A photon does not accelerate or decelerate.


Instead of speculating, how about reading up on binding energy instead? You know that the binding energy that holds particles together is very strong, and - unless you want to rubbish Einstein - the only formula from special relativity that is known to the general public is e=mc2 which tells you that a lot of energy means a lot of mass.
Arthur Dent blocking a bulldozer?
__________________
"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though thier own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Wolrab is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 01:44 PM   #1179
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 12,456
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I don't think you understand what observed light is.
Project much?
__________________
"When a man who is honestly mistaken, hears the truth, he will either cease being mistaken or cease being honest." - Anonymous

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:11 PM   #1180
phunk
Illuminator
 
phunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,018
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
How can energy have mass?
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
phunk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:56 PM   #1181
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I could say the same about you.

But fair enough. I'm pretty sure I don't understand what you mean by observed light. Could you explain it, please?

I think my scenario raises a clear problem. Light is not observed along most of its path of travel. Is its speed unlimited for most of its journey?
You haven't been following this thread closely if you don't know the state is known while the particle is being created. Before it even starts moving it will be a photon or a wave. The photon avenue means physical and using spacetime (observed) .

Last edited by pittsburghjoe; Today at 02:59 PM.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 03:28 PM   #1182
pittsburghjoe
Critical Thinker
 
pittsburghjoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: BHole
Posts: 452
Originally Posted by phunk View Post
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I'm not getting why they are calling that mass. That needs it's own label. Claiming everything is mass is getting out of hand.
pittsburghjoe is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 04:02 PM   #1183
jadebox
Graduate Poster
 
jadebox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,567
Originally Posted by pittsburghjoe View Post
I'm not getting why they are calling that mass. That needs it's own label. Claiming everything is mass is getting out of hand.
Before you revolutionize physics, you should first learn at least a little about it.
jadebox is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:16 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.