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Tags Coronavirus , vaccine , vaccines

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Old 1st January 2021, 09:37 AM   #241
dann
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UK chief medical officers defend delay of second Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine doses (CNN, Jan. 1, 2021)
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Old 1st January 2021, 10:19 AM   #242
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Whoops - been discussing this in the wrong thread!

Originally Posted by Capsid View Post
I’d say there is a case for it, but I’d rather they didn’t take the risk, I don’t think given the limited supply of the Pfizer vaccine we should or need to take the risk.

With the Oxford vaccine it seems the decision is evidence lead so can see why they’ve made that decision for that vaccine.
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Old 1st January 2021, 10:44 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Latest news says potentially three felonies. Altering a prescription drug is one of the specific potential charges. No word of motive yet that I know of. It has now also been discovered that they were out longer than previously known so the administered doses that were thought be viable were not likely to have been. Hopefully the vials have safe guards to rule out that he altered them in other ways.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/31/us/wi...als/index.html

An update:
Quote:
The individual, a resident of Grafton in the Milwaukee suburbs, was arrested on Thursday and booked into the Ozaukee County jail on felony charges of recklessly endangering safety, adulterating a prescription drug and criminal damage to property, police said.
https://news.yahoo.com/wisconsin-pha...014828074.html
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Old 1st January 2021, 10:59 AM   #244
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What's the update??

ETA: Oh, you're making a joke about your source correcting a spelling error?

Last edited by RecoveringYuppy; 1st January 2021 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 1st January 2021, 12:56 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
What's the update??

ETA: Oh, you're making a joke about your source correcting a spelling error?
The update is that the guy has actually been arrested and charged with three felonies. What's the joke?
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Old 1st January 2021, 01:31 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The update is that the guy has actually been arrested and charged with three felonies. What's the joke?
That was in my source. Word for word for with what you highlighted except your source corrects the same spelling error that I did (but then loses pedant points for removing an Oxford comma!).
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:34 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The UK thinks it's OK to use it already, but apparently the US government (or at least this guy) is taking a different view.

Is there any reason to think it might not work as well in older people given that trials mostly involved younger people?

Could it be nationalism? The AstraZeneca vaccine is the so-called Oxford vaccine, isn't it? Why has only the UK approved it, and conversely, is Operation Warp Speed trying stave off the competition to benefit Pfizer and Moderna?

ETA: or even more troubling, this guy is probably going to leave his position in January when Biden takes over. Is he going to parachute into a lucrative position at Pfizer or Moderna?

Perhaps this: ThalidomideWP.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Thalidomide was first marketed in 1957 in West Germany, where it was available over the counter. When first released, thalidomide was promoted for anxiety, trouble sleeping, "tension", and morning sickness. While initially thought to be safe in pregnancy, concerns regarding birth defects arose in 1961 and the medication was removed from the market in Europe that year. The total number of embryos affected by use during pregnancy is estimated at 10,000, of which about 40% died around the time of birth. Those who survived had limb, eye, urinary tract, and heart problems. Its initial entry into the US market was prevented by Frances Kelsey at the FDA. The birth defects caused by thalidomide led to the development of greater drug regulation and monitoring in many countries.
In the USA, Kelsey had reservations about the German safety data and delayed giving approval. As a result the States was spared the horror of thousands of babies born with birth defects that included missing or malformed limbs, which naturally are life-long conditions.

Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.
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Old 1st January 2021, 04:39 PM   #248
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I'm aware of Thalidomide, but this is a deadly infectious disease that's killing thousands of people every day.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 02:39 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Perhaps this: ThalidomideWP.



In the USA, Kelsey had reservations about the German safety data and delayed giving approval. As a result the States was spared the horror of thousands of babies born with birth defects that included missing or malformed limbs, which naturally are life-long conditions.

Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.
So that was 4 years (1957 to 1961)- just how long do you think trials should continue before the covid 19 vaccines are released to the public - given the present infection and death rates?
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Old 2nd January 2021, 03:42 AM   #250
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Thalidomide is not the way to be thinking right now. Saving lives is.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 04:04 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I'm aware of Thalidomide, but this is a deadly infectious disease that's killing thousands of people every day.
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
So that was 4 years (1957 to 1961)- just how long do you think trials should continue before the covid 19 vaccines are released to the public - given the present infection and death rates?
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Thalidomide is not the way to be thinking right now. Saving lives is.
I don't necessarily disagree, but the FDA is also a bureaucracy.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 05:58 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Perhaps this: ThalidomideWP.



In the USA, Kelsey had reservations about the German safety data and delayed giving approval. As a result the States was spared the horror of thousands of babies born with birth defects that included missing or malformed limbs, which naturally are life-long conditions.

Once bitten, twice shy, as they say.
But that resulted in a change to testing regimes worldwide. (It is also why so many drugs are not prescribed to pregnant women, not because they are unsafe but because their safety hasnít been established.)
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Old 2nd January 2021, 06:32 AM   #253
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There is talk on my Farcebook feed that the different vaccines coud be mixed between the first and second jabs in the UK. Is there any validity to this? I wouldn't have thought this would have been a tested thng to do.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 07:04 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
There is talk on my Farcebook feed that the different vaccines coud be mixed between the first and second jabs in the UK. Is there any validity to this? I wouldn't have thought this would have been a tested thng to do.
I've seen this from the New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/h...s-britain.html

"Amid a sputtering vaccine rollout and fears of a new and potentially more transmissible variant of the coronavirus, Britain has quietly updated its vaccination playbook to allow for a mix-and-match vaccine regimen. If a second dose of the vaccine a patient originally received isn’t available, or if the manufacturer of the first shot isn’t known, another vaccine may be substituted, health officials said."


Whilst not preferrable, it's better than leaving some people with only one dose ( once the second doses start to be issued in a few months time. )
No doubt some testing will be carried out prior to the three month period expiry.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 11:13 AM   #255
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Don't have a link since I heard it on radio but apparently the idea of mixing vaccines is not officially recommended in the UK.


ETA: Better link.

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Old 2nd January 2021, 12:59 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
I've seen this from the New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/h...s-britain.html

"Amid a sputtering vaccine rollout and fears of a new and potentially more transmissible variant of the coronavirus, Britain has quietly updated its vaccination playbook to allow for a mix-and-match vaccine regimen. If a second dose of the vaccine a patient originally received isnít available, or if the manufacturer of the first shot isnít known, another vaccine may be substituted, health officials said."


Whilst not preferrable, it's better than leaving some people with only one dose ( once the second doses start to be issued in a few months time. )
No doubt some testing will be carried out prior to the three month period expiry.
Isn't that rather risky?
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Old 2nd January 2021, 01:02 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Isn't that rather risky?

Why do you think it is risky?


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Old 2nd January 2021, 01:19 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Isn't that rather risky?
Unlikely.

There are other vaccines where we mix brands routinely like the hepatitis B vaccine.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 02:22 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Unlikely.

There are other vaccines where we mix brands routinely like the hepatitis B vaccine.

But if different brands of hep B vaccine are manufactured the same way to the same standards, they are basically interchangeable. But these covid vaccines use different technologies. There's been no testing to see whether they can work effectively together. It could be catastrophic to let people think they've been fully immunized when in fact they haven't. I'd hate to have somebody injecting me with whatever they just happened to have on hand that day.

Even having to think about it is more evidence that the vaccine distribution and delivery mechanisms are a mess.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 03:41 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
But if different brands of hep B vaccine are manufactured the same way to the same standards, they are basically interchangeable. But these covid vaccines use different technologies. There's been no testing to see whether they can work effectively together. It could be catastrophic to let people think they've been fully immunized when in fact they haven't. I'd hate to have somebody injecting me with whatever they just happened to have on hand that day.

Even having to think about it is more evidence that the vaccine distribution and delivery mechanisms are a mess.
The hep B vaccines are different dosages, and technically there are no generics or substitutes with biologics.

The principle behind using different brands is sound.

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Old 2nd January 2021, 04:40 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
There is talk on my Farcebook feed that the different vaccines coud be mixed between the first and second jabs in the UK. Is there any validity to this? I wouldn't have thought this would have been a tested thng to do.
There is a trial ongoing of combining the UK (AZ/Oxford) and Russian (Sputnik) vaccines. There is a rational for this. Both use a viral vector, but a different one to deliver the same antigen. In theory the second dose of the same vaccine may be less effective because the body has developed immunity to the vector, so using a different vector may enhance the effectiveness of the second dose.

Since nearly all vaccines are presenting the same antigen epitopes and it is the epitopes that are important in theory any combination of vaccines should provoke long lasting immunity. Remembering the second dose primarily acts to prolong the duration not strength of immunity by provoking expansion of immunological memory cells that persist lifelong. This only works effectively if several weeks between first and second dose. Three weeks as in Pfizer vaccine is the lower limit for boosting in theory waiting longer will increase effectiveness of the second dose.

From

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3760154/

Quote:
Several studies have shown that boosting with a different vector carrying the same antigen is better for enhancing immune responses compared to boosting with the homologous vector.

Quote:
In determining the interval between the first immunization and the booster shot it is important to consider the differentiation pathways of memory B and T cells. Memory T cells with high proliferative potential do not form until several weeks after the first immunization so as a general rule it is better to have an interval of at least 2–3 months between the prime and the boost (Fig. 2). Boosting too early will give sub-optimal responses.
Whilst it is clearly better to have studies done on the exact regime used, the trials were principally done to show* the vaccines provoked an immune response and that the immune response was clinically effective. That having been done there is no overwhelmingly strong reason to stick to the exact format of vaccination used in the trials any effective vaccine given ideally > 3 weeks after the first dose and ideally more towards 3 months will have a booster effect.

ETA * Also of course the trials were to show safety.

Last edited by Planigale; 2nd January 2021 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 2nd January 2021, 09:09 PM   #262
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Latest updates from:

The Bloomberg tracker
12 million doses given worldwide, 4.28 million in the USA, 4.5 million in China, 950 K in Israel (It's actually over 1 million as of Friday according to some news reports, but the tracker doesn't reflect that yet), 947 K in the UK and 800 K in Russia.

The Our World in Data tracker
Doses administered per 100 population:
Quote:
Israel 11.55 (Jan 1, 2021)
Bahrain 3.53
United Kingdom 1.47 (Jan 1, 2021)
United States 1.28
Denmark 0.56
China 0.31 (Dec 31, 2020)
Canada 0.29 (Jan 1, 2021)
Germany 0.23 (Jan 1, 2021)
Croatia 0.19 (Dec 30, 2020)
Portugal 0.16 (Dec 29, 2020)
World 0.15
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Old 3rd January 2021, 08:27 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
There is a trial ongoing of combining the UK (AZ/Oxford) and Russian (Sputnik) vaccines. There is a rational for this. Both use a viral vector, but a different one to deliver the same antigen. In theory the second dose of the same vaccine may be less effective because the body has developed immunity to the vector, so using a different vector may enhance the effectiveness of the second dose.

Since nearly all vaccines are presenting the same antigen epitopes and it is the epitopes that are important in theory any combination of vaccines should provoke long lasting immunity. Remembering the second dose primarily acts to prolong the duration not strength of immunity by provoking expansion of immunological memory cells that persist lifelong. This only works effectively if several weeks between first and second dose. Three weeks as in Pfizer vaccine is the lower limit for boosting in theory waiting longer will increase effectiveness of the second dose.

From

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3760154/






Whilst it is clearly better to have studies done on the exact regime used, the trials were principally done to show* the vaccines provoked an immune response and that the immune response was clinically effective. That having been done there is no overwhelmingly strong reason to stick to the exact format of vaccination used in the trials any effective vaccine given ideally > 3 weeks after the first dose and ideally more towards 3 months will have a booster effect.

ETA * Also of course the trials were to show safety.
Thank you.
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Old 3rd January 2021, 10:32 AM   #264
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Someone who's already had the virus and recovered, will they need to be vaccinated? Following the booster vaccine theory/protocol, is it the case that the vaccine might prolong the immunity that the disease/infection itself has already given them? And, in that case, will they need just the one jab? (Or will they too need both doses? Why?)
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Old 3rd January 2021, 12:01 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Someone who's already had the virus and recovered, will they need to be vaccinated? Following the booster vaccine theory/protocol, is it the case that the vaccine might prolong the immunity that the disease/infection itself has already given them? And, in that case, will they need just the one jab? (Or will they too need both doses? Why?)
I don't think anyone knows the exact details.

But we know it is possible to get reinfected, so vaccination is probably a good thing even if you had it. However if you had Covid19 recently your body still might have antibodies that might make the vaccine less effective.

I suspect the best option is to vaccinate the people that had Covid19 but put them at a lower priority.

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Old 3rd January 2021, 01:53 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I don't think anyone knows the exact details.

True. It's kind of unsettling, how little of the details we do know so far.


Quote:
But we know it is possible to get reinfected, so vaccination is probably a good thing even if you had it. However if you had Covid19 recently your body still might have antibodies that might make the vaccine less effective.

I suspect the best option is to vaccinate the people that had Covid19 but put them at a lower priority.

That makes sense. Thanks for those inputs.



And that would suggest that the vaccine is likely to be short-lived in its effects. That one may need to rinse and repeat, in six months or so.

But I guess in six months or so we'll know a great deal more about this than we do now.
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Old 3rd January 2021, 07:39 PM   #267
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So Quebec (Canada) seems to have a plan that is... interesting.

From: CTV News
Quebec's decision to delay the second dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine this week to inoculate as many people as possible with a first dose is causing concern for some health-care professionals working on the front lines.

I can certainly understand the reasoning... get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible (even if immunity doesn't last as long) to head off the current surge of cases. (The article points out that the government is claiming a single dose is >90% effective, which might not be accurate.)
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:21 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
Someone who's already had the virus and recovered, will they need to be vaccinated? Following the booster vaccine theory/protocol, is it the case that the vaccine might prolong the immunity that the disease/infection itself has already given them? And, in that case, will they need just the one jab? (Or will they too need both doses? Why?)
Good question. No one knows how long immunity lasts yet. Practically there is no contra-indication to being vaccinated if you have had the infection that is known; it would be impractical at present to screen people to see if they have been infected (probably a majority of those infected have not been tested), so the simple solution is vaccinate with the standard protocol regardless of prior infection history. Yes in theory a single dose might function as a booster, given at the right interval, probably 2 - 3 months post infection.
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Old 4th January 2021, 01:24 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So Quebec (Canada) seems to have a plan that is... interesting.

From: CTV News
Quebec's decision to delay the second dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine this week to inoculate as many people as possible with a first dose is causing concern for some health-care professionals working on the front lines.

I can certainly understand the reasoning... get as many vaccinated as quickly as possible (even if immunity doesn't last as long) to head off the current surge of cases. (The article points out that the government is claiming a single dose is >90% effective, which might not be accurate.)
My guess is they are following the UK in deferring second dose to 2 - 3 months. I think we may see this policy become widespread. Although Fauci has ruled this out for the US given current US rates it might be sensible for US health authorities to reconsider this.
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Old 4th January 2021, 06:23 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Good question. No one knows how long immunity lasts yet. Practically there is no contra-indication to being vaccinated if you have had the infection that is known

No, there isn't, as far as I know. But that's the part I wanted to cross-check here, since what one does know is so very sketchy! Thanks for that confirmation.


Quote:
it would be impractical at present to screen people to see if they have been infected (probably a majority of those infected have not been tested), so the simple solution is vaccinate with the standard protocol regardless of prior infection history. Yes in theory a single dose might function as a booster, given at the right interval, probably 2 - 3 months post infection.

And there are no contra-indications to taking a double-booster either, is there? (Far as I know there isn't.) So that, following that same reasoning, it might make sense for someone who's recovered from Covid-19 to go ahead and take both the doses, right? Even though in theory he perhaps might not -- maybe, perhaps -- need that booster follow-on jab at all?
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Old 4th January 2021, 07:31 AM   #271
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I think it's well known that you don't get immunity immediately. Or at least it should be. Even in the clinical trials, there were people who got sick within a 10-day period after getting the first shot. After that, compared to the placebo group, it went down considerably.

Israel is vaccinating so fast it’s running out of vaccine (Washington Post)

Quote:
Jan. 4, 2021 at 10:20 p.m. GMT+9
JERUSALEM — Israel, which has inoculated a higher proportion of its population against the coronavirus than any other country, is delivering shots so quickly that it is outstripping its supply of vaccine.
Health officials are scrambling to buy more doses and said they may pause giving the first round of shots to younger citizens to deliver the second, final injections to the elderly.
The situation is essentially the opposite of that in many parts of the United States, where vaccines are sitting unused as mass inoculation programs struggle to build momentum.
That's frustrating. For some reason, the US has vaccines available and unused, but shots are not getting into arms like they are in Israel.
Israel seems to have no trouble getting what shots they do have into arms.

And Japan hasn't even approved it yet. Incidentally, it looks like Japan will have another emergency declaration (at least in Tokyo and the 3 adjacent prefectures), which is what they did to slow the spread last spring, and it seemed to work at the time. At a high cost to be sure, but it slowed the spread and it stayed at a fairly low level for the rest of the summer, and then started to grow again as the weather turned colder. The situation objectively is not as dire here as it is in the United States and some other countries I suppose, in terms of the number of infections and deaths, but numbers are rising rapidly.
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:11 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Good question. No one knows how long immunity lasts yet. Practically there is no contra-indication to being vaccinated if you have had the infection that is known; it would be impractical at present to screen people to see if they have been infected (probably a majority of those infected have not been tested), so the simple solution is vaccinate with the standard protocol regardless of prior infection history. Yes in theory a single dose might function as a booster, given at the right interval, probably 2 - 3 months post infection.
Is prior infection a completely different biological process to vaccination or is it possible they are interchangeable ideas? For example maybe a very mild prior infection is equivalent to vaccination??
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Old 4th January 2021, 03:59 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Is prior infection a completely different biological process to vaccination or is it possible they are interchangeable ideas? For example maybe a very mild prior infection is equivalent to vaccination??
Infection is not a completely different process to vaccination. Some vaccinations e.g. live polio or smallpox are very similar. Infections 'try' to evade the immune system so some infections are poorly immunogenic; you do not get long last immunity and vaccinating against them is difficult, HPV would be an example where a good vaccine was developed, HIV or RSV where a vaccine has failed to be developed and TB one where there is immunisation, but it is not very good. For infections where you do not get good immunity vaccination should be better than natural infection. A significant proportion of people infected with hepatitis B get chronically infected and cannot eradicate the infection, prior vaccination prevents that. Usually post infection vaccination offers little benefit, but an exception is rabies, where post infection vaccination can be life saving. The virus evades the immune system but is fairly slow in progressing, giving time for vaccination to provoke an infective immune response.

Infections that provoke life time immunity like small pox can be vaccinated against with live attenuated vaccines that closely emulate the infection. infections like hepatitis B are vaccinated against by identifying a component of the infection that is normally fairly well concealed from the immune system and developing an enhanced response. For some infections you actually vaccinate against the toxin produced by the infection e.g. diphtheria or tetanus; you do not actually prevent the infection, just the dangerous consequences of the infection.

So I guess what I am saying is, it depends. The process is not fundamentally different, but infections differ.
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Old 4th January 2021, 09:48 PM   #274
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Great help, thank you Planigale.
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Old 5th January 2021, 10:50 AM   #275
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"Wisconsin pharmacist who left vials out believed vaccine could harm people and change their DNA, police say."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/04/us/wi...ing/index.html
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:15 PM   #276
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You'd think a pharmacist ought to know better.

So much misinformation and disinformation on social media and "alternative" media these days.

I wonder if this is another casualty of that?

To be sure, there has always been misinformation and disinformation, but nowadays it's just a mouse-click away.
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Old 5th January 2021, 08:39 PM   #277
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Latest updates from:

The Bloomberg tracker
15 million doses given worldwide, 5.05 million in the USA (less than 1 million in the last 3 days; frustratingly slow). Remember that they initially promised 20 million by the end of December.

The Our World in Data tracker
Doses administered per 100 population:

Quote:
Israel 15.83 (Jan 4, 2021)
United Arab Emirates 8.35
Bahrain 3.75
United States 1.46
United Kingdom 1.39 (Dec 27, 2020)
Denmark 0.89 (Jan 4, 2021)
Russia 0.55 (Jan 2, 2021)
Canada 0.38 (Jan 4, 2021)
Germany 0.38 (Jan 4, 2021)
Croatia 0.34
China 0.31 (Dec 31, 2020)
Italy 0.3
Spain 0.3
Estonia 0.24
World 0.19
The UAE was not on the list last time I checked, 3 days ago. Now they are in second place. Israel continues to make everyone else look like incompetents.
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Old 6th January 2021, 01:25 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Latest updates from:

The Bloomberg tracker
15 million doses given worldwide, 5.05 million in the USA (less than 1 million in the last 3 days; frustratingly slow). Remember that they initially promised 20 million by the end of December.

The Our World in Data tracker
Doses administered per 100 population:



The UAE was not on the list last time I checked, 3 days ago. Now they are in second place. Israel continues to make everyone else look like incompetents.
Israel is ahead because it approved the vaccine use earlier and paid $60 a dose as opposed to $20 paid by the US to get priority access. Other countries have proportionally less vaccine than Israel so cannot vaccinate more people. Certainly the UK could have vaccinated more people if it had had more doses of the Pfizer vaccine.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:07 AM   #279
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I would happily pay $60 a dose out of my own pocket for the vaccine. Well worth it.
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Old 6th January 2021, 06:13 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Israel is ahead because it approved the vaccine use earlier and paid $60 a dose as opposed to $20 paid by the US to get priority access. Other countries have proportionally less vaccine than Israel so cannot vaccinate more people. Certainly the UK could have vaccinated more people if it had had more doses of the Pfizer vaccine.
There are a few other things that help them out, the structure of their society comes into it.
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