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Old 26th December 2020, 12:14 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
China is burdened by its past of being the poor nation providing cheap goods for high-income countries.

Now, it's using education and technology to develop its Belt and Road initiative {Wikipedia} to connect Eurasia and allow easier transport of goods, and less poverty for itself and other countries.
Somoene is really drinking the kool aid. I see.
Once again, sounds like the excuses made by western "Fellow Travellers" during Stalin's regime.
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:55 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
US and Aussie use tariffs on China, and vice versa. Happens all the time.
Trump's tariffs bear some resemblance, but they're not strangling exports the way China is.

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Where were you thinking of?
Here. We were trying to protect trade at the time. That never happens for other countries.
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Old 26th December 2020, 01:56 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And you think I'm the one that doesn't get out enough.
Roll your eyes all you like - it's you avoiding the question.

You made two contradictory statements. Only one of them can be true.

Which one is it?
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I have run into trouble in more than one country, none of which anyone warned me about. Most of the time people are people everywhere you go. Bottom line though, you never see what a country or its people are like unless you go there.
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yes, a lot of people voted for Trump. That's doesn't make the few who make the papers, examples of what all the rest are like.
This is exactly what I'm getting at. Thank you.

I'd thought the "there be dragons" mentality had died out.

The media reporting sensationalism, and governments giving their travel warnings & advice make other countries sound much higher-risk than actual one-in-a-million chance of, say, terrorism.
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:12 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Trump's tariffs bear some resemblance, but they're not strangling exports the way China is.



Here. We were trying to protect trade at the time. That never happens for other countries.
But China isn't shooting anyone in the streets in NZ.

I don't think they're even shooting them in Hong Kong, any more than the US is shooting them in the US.
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:28 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Gee, sounds like what they said about Joe Stalin
Just a varaition on the old "But he made the trains runs on time" and I, frankly have no use for these kind of apologists.
Suit yourself. I understand this thread as a place to share facts. Both the oppressiveness of the Chinese government and the unprecedented economical progress during the last several decades are facts.

I think a considerable portion of the Chinse population would like a more democratic system (even if many don't really know that that entails), but I don't think they would like to do without the vastly improved economy.

Ideally, China would gradually move towards democracy, but that won't happen overnight. In fact it can't. Democracy is a slow process.

Hans
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Old 26th December 2020, 05:18 AM   #47
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The was an interesting broadcast from the BBC.

Two points key they made were that having seen what happened to communist states of Yugoslavia and USSR the Chinese communist party is opposed to autonomy and following a policy of developing a single linguistic and cultural identity. That the main policy is not China first but the Chinese communist party first, most policy is directed to maintaining control and the future of the communist party. There is no ethical element other than the dominance of the party.

BBC world service broadcasts are interesting because they utilise e.g. Chinese journalists and academics, who express Chinese views. The views are not comfortable, whilst I do not see China being a hot war military threat to the west, I think they are a cold war threat, the best long term position is a weak and dependant west, a successful west is always an ideological threat.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172x19fnvk5p46
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:45 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Protests in Europe haven't been hidden, as an example.
They have, actually: Tibet flag case (Wikipedia)
I don't know about other European countries.
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:56 AM   #49
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Have they given an update on how the withering of the state is going?
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Old 26th December 2020, 12:09 PM   #50
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Disliking China is hardly something that's exceptional for the USA compared with other western countries:

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2...any-countries/

https://www.pewresearch.org/global/w...China_0-05.png

Note that Sweden is up there with countries like South Korea and Japan for a very good reason:

https://www.economist.com/europe/202...inese-bullying
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Old 26th December 2020, 12:41 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
But China isn't shooting anyone in the streets in NZ.

I don't think they're even shooting them in Hong Kong, any more than the US is shooting them in the US.
Is that where you're drawing the line?
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Suit yourself. I understand this thread as a place to share facts. Both the oppressiveness of the Chinese government and the unprecedented economical progress during the last several decades are facts.

I think a considerable portion of the Chinse population would like a more democratic system (even if many don't really know that that entails), but I don't think they would like to do without the vastly improved economy.

Ideally, China would gradually move towards democracy, but that won't happen overnight. In fact it can't. Democracy is a slow process.

Hans
I guess oppresive regimes are find as they are left wing.
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:28 PM   #53
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I see XI is finding "Useful Idiots" in the west.
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Old 26th December 2020, 02:39 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I guess oppresive regimes are find as they are left wing.
Uh...if you say so?

Because I don't think anyone else did.
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Old 26th December 2020, 03:03 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I see XI is finding "Useful Idiots" in the west.
It seems like just yesterday he was getting his head stuck in honey jars, or Rabbit's hole.
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Old 26th December 2020, 03:53 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I think a considerable portion of the Chinse population would like a more democratic system (even if many don't really know that that entails)
What do they hope to get out of it?
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Old 26th December 2020, 04:06 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Is that where you're drawing the line?
I'm trying to get a full picture.

I see some underestimating of the resilience and ingenuity of the "west".

And, I'd like to see less fear of China so the trade wars don't escalate out of any "cold war" that potentially exists.
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Old 26th December 2020, 05:01 PM   #58
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I'm not afraid of China unless I happen to drop a piece and it shatters while I'm walking around barefoot.
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:38 PM   #59
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Did you know that China is using forced labor from an ethnic minority to pick cotton?


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/sho...urs-into-labor
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Old 26th December 2020, 06:39 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Ideally, China would gradually move towards democracy, but that won't happen overnight. In fact it can't. Democracy is a slow process.
Ideally in whose minds?

Certainly not China's. Xi is making sure they stay as far from it as possible, and when you have people buying into the idea of social credit, alongside face-recognition technology taken to insane extremes, I don't see how it's going to be possible.

They're a great study in how to control a population.

It's also quite sad that instead of building on progressive policies they choose to do the opposite. It seems to me they could have the best of both worlds, but have decided instead to embody Lord Acton's axioms.
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Old 26th December 2020, 07:25 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
...

And, I'd like to see less fear of China so the trade wars don't escalate out of any "cold war" that potentially exists.
One cannot draw any conclusions about cold wars in the US based on the last 4 years. Give things a year to settle out.
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Old 26th December 2020, 08:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Did you know that China is using forced labor from an ethnic minority to pick cotton?


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/sho...urs-into-labor
Building concentration camps to imprison millions of ethnic minorities, where they are indoctrinated in political propaganda and forced to work for free, is perfectly acceptable because they are getting poor developing countries to pay for railways in the middle of nowhere and infrastructure they can't afford.

The Chinese are so benevolent and self-less I just don't know how one can find them objectionable.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:31 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Building concentration camps to imprison millions of ethnic minorities, where they are indoctrinated in political propaganda and forced to work for free, is perfectly acceptable because they are getting poor developing countries to pay for railways in the middle of nowhere and infrastructure they can't afford.

The Chinese are so benevolent and self-less I just don't know how one can find them objectionable.
Because Guantanamo Bay is while smaller a holiday camp.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:36 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Did you know that China is using forced labor from an ethnic minority to pick cotton?


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/sho...urs-into-labor
I have seen reports of that and find it concerning.

It's like Australia and its current policy of directing refugees and also backpackers detained by COVID-19 restrictions into fruitpicking.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-...demic/12821900
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:37 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I guess oppresive regimes are find as they are left wing.
Nobody is saying that.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:42 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What do they hope to get out of it?
I think they want the freedom to elect the next dictator. The next guy who they believe will be even harsher on the drug traffickers and imprison the junkies for decades. Freedom to elect politicians who will silence speech they don't like to hear.
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Old 26th December 2020, 09:44 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Building concentration camps to imprison millions of ethnic minorities, where they are indoctrinated in political propaganda and forced to work for free, is perfectly acceptable because they are getting poor developing countries to pay for railways in the middle of nowhere and infrastructure they can't afford.

The Chinese are so benevolent and self-less I just don't know how one can find them objectionable.
You sound like you want to turn this into a bullying thread, and upset that I'm not trying to pigeonhole a nation of over a billion people into being all good, so you're building a straw man you can oh-so-bravely fight.
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:04 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I guess oppresive regimes are find as they are left wing.
I don't think oppressive regimes are fine at all. But I realize they exist.

Hans
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:07 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What do they hope to get out of it?
Well, that is actually a very pertinent point. A good many of them will say: - Democracy? Sounds fine, but what will it cost?

Hans
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:19 AM   #70
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just because China threatens the status quo doesn't mean it is an aggressor - even if it feels like that for those countries who are comparatively diminished.
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:56 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
just because China threatens the status quo doesn't mean it is an aggressor - even if it feels like that for those countries who are comparatively diminished.
On the world scene, they hardly are, not yet, anyway. In their local area, they are becoming quite aggressive.

- A constant threat to Taiwan.
- Expanding their sea territory.
- Conflict with Japan about various islands.
- Tibet.

Hans
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Old 27th December 2020, 03:03 AM   #72
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agreed.

ever since the world was colonized, powerful country have seen their neighbors as potential agents of other powerful countries, and justified aggression against a smaller opponent as defense against the bigger one hiding behind the proxy.

I think China is so aggressive against Taiwan, Tibet and Japan because it sees them as tools of the US; it would be more relaxed if it considered them their own agent.
But there is nothing that can be done to convince them that they.
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Old 27th December 2020, 07:22 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
agreed.

ever since the world was colonized, powerful country have seen their neighbors as potential agents of other powerful countries, and justified aggression against a smaller opponent as defense against the bigger one hiding behind the proxy.

I think China is so aggressive against Taiwan, Tibet and Japan because it sees them as tools of the US; it would be more relaxed if it considered them their own agent.
But there is nothing that can be done to convince them that they.
Not everything is about the US. China sees Tibet and Taiwan as parts of itself because for centuries they were. As for Japan, China hasn't forgiven them for their own imperialist war of conquest they actually did, there's no need to chalk up the animosity to a hypothetical future war of US imperialism there.
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Old 27th December 2020, 07:46 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Not everything is about the US. China sees Tibet and Taiwan as parts of itself because for centuries they were. As for Japan, China hasn't forgiven them for their own imperialist war of conquest they actually did, there's no need to chalk up the animosity to a hypothetical future war of US imperialism there.
That is very true, and with some good reason. Up to and during WW2, Japan committed horrible atrocities in China. Both countries are something quite different today, but there are still (a few) people alive who saw it.

Hans
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Old 27th December 2020, 10:27 AM   #75
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Something else about China that really pisses me off - people calling them "left wing" or even worse, "Communist".

The latter is demonstrable simply by the existence of the Shanghai Bourse, while the idea that they're left of Genghis Khan is simply fantasy.

China is a totalitarian capitalist regime, which is possibly what angers some Americans so much about them. They're occupying the same ground that those Americans think they own, and they don't like it.

A good example is the Chinese moves in the SC Sea. USA sails warships through it constantly to assert their right to do what the hell they like and threaten China, yet I recall that when a certain Caribbean nation tried to put some missiles on USA's doorstep, America threatened nuclear war if they didn't get taken away.

How would USA react if China or Russia regularly sailed around the Gulf of Mexico? We don't even need to ask that question, because it's been answered by the furore some years back that even the possibility of Russian subs caused: 1 2

We need to attack China for its human rights abuses - and the animal abuses - not their political leaning.
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Old 27th December 2020, 12:39 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Did you know that China is using forced labor from an ethnic minority to pick cotton?


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/sho...urs-into-labor
But it's just to cure them of laziness...I actually heard a Chinese government official make this statement in a BBC story.
China no dobut has it's own version of the GULAG in operation.
But you can't make an omellter with breaking a few eggs..one of the statements made by Uncle Joe's fanboys when his brutal regime was criticised.
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Old 27th December 2020, 12:41 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
just because China threatens the status quo doesn't mean it is an aggressor - even if it feels like that for those countries who are comparatively diminished.
Would you make the same excuses for a right wing regime?
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Old 27th December 2020, 12:41 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
I don't think oppressive regimes are fine at all. But I realize they exist.

Hans
But you defend and excuse them..at least if they have a left wing ideology.
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Old 27th December 2020, 01:25 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But you defend and excuse them..at least if they have a left wing ideology.
Defending something and making accusations are motives.

What evidence do you present the facts that were stated had such motives behind them?

Besides which, that's a discussion about Hans and what kind of person Hans is.

Rather than grappling with the data.
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Old 27th December 2020, 02:43 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But you defend and excuse them..at least if they have a left wing ideology.
No I don't.

Hans
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