IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , political predictions , political speculation , presidential pardons , Trump controversies

View Poll Results: Will Trump pardon himself?
Yes 45 84.91%
No 8 15.09%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Old 13th January 2021, 08:54 AM   #81
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,780
Someone posted this article in another thread, but I thought it would be more relevant here...

From: Yahoo
After last week's assault on the U.S. Capitol by Trump supporters, right after Trump urged them to march on the Capitol, Trump is not in the pardoning mood. "The president has been warned, David, by some of his lawyers that if he goes ahead and pardons himself, he could be more vulnerable to civil lawsuits, including from some of those injured in the Capitol riot, because a self-pardon would be seen as an admission that he did something wrong that he would need to be pardoned for," (Reporter Johnathan) Karl said. "The president is angry, he has not taken that well, and I am told that he is now saying that he doesn't want to see pardons for anybody. So the attitude seems to be: 'If I can't get a pardon, then nobody else should get one, either.'"

Earlier, someone suggested Trump might try self pardoning because there is "no risk". Well, looks like there might be a risk because Trump could get sued by MAGAchuds who fell for his claims.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:11 AM   #82
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,230
I have to wonder if Trump is aware that even if Trump pardons successfully pardons himself:

1) By issuing, and then accepting a self-pardon, Trump is essentially admitting that he committed a crime.

2) Pardons do not cover civil issues like law suits and debts. Therefore, Trump will still be on the hook for the hundreds of millions that he owes to other people. Also, it is quite possible that he will face law suits resulting from the numerous lies that he has told and the insurrection that he recently caused.

3) Pardons do not cover state crimes. And Trump is under serious investigation in New York right now for some of the crimes that he committed there.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:15 AM   #83
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,745
Sadly it's probably a case of "No I'm pardoning myself but not admitting guilt because I say so" and it maybe still (much less certain now than even a few days ago to be fair) working on his base.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:16 AM   #84
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,780
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I have to wonder if Trump is aware that even if Trump pardons successfully pardons himself:

1) By issuing, and then accepting a self-pardon, Trump is essentially admitting that he committed a crime.

2) Pardons do not cover civil issues like law suits and debts. Therefore, Trump will still be on the hook for the hundreds of millions that he owes to other people. Also, it is quite possible that he will face law suits resulting from the numerous lies that he has told and the insurrection that he recently caused.
If he wasn't aware before, he might be now. (The article I posted above points out that Trump may have stopped granting all pardons because he is having a temper tantrum when lawyers explained the risk to him.)
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:17 AM   #85
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,780
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sadly it's probably a case of "No I'm pardoning myself but not admitting guilt because I say so" and it maybe still (much less certain now than even a few days ago to be fair) working on his base.
May work on his base... but in courts, it has to work on the judge and jury. And I am sure that they will be trying to screen out any MAGAchuds during jury selection.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:24 AM   #86
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 32,180
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Sadly it's probably a case of "No I'm pardoning myself but not admitting guilt because I say so"[]
Which ought to be known as the Alford Pardon.

Dave
__________________
Inspiring discussion of Sharknado is not a good sign for the audience expectations of your new high-concept SF movie sequel.

- Myriad
Dave Rogers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:25 AM   #87
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
 
Crossbow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 13,230
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
If he wasn't aware before, he might be now. (The article I posted above points out that Trump may have stopped granting all pardons because he is having a temper tantrum when lawyers explained the risk to him.)
Wow!

That sure explains a great many things.
__________________
On 22 JUL 2016, Candidate Donald Trump in his acceptance speech: "There can be no prosperity without law and order."

On 15 FEB 2019 'BobTheCoward' said: "I constantly assert I am a fool."

A man's best friend is his dogma.
Crossbow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 09:54 AM   #88
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,280
Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I have to wonder if Trump is aware that even if Trump pardons successfully pardons himself:

1) By issuing, and then accepting a self-pardon, Trump is essentially admitting that he committed a crime..
A lot of people say this, but is it well settled law? And even if it is, does it matter to Trump? His followers won't know it or believe it if he tells them not to.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 10:08 AM   #89
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,780
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Quote:
1) By issuing, and then accepting a self-pardon, Trump is essentially admitting that he committed a crime..
A lot of people say this, but is it well settled law?
No it isn't.

There was a case (Burdick v. United States) which people think makes that insinuation, but that was more a case of "can you reject a pardon" rather than "does it imply guilt".

Heck, the fact that pardons can be issued because a person was exonerated due to new evidence shows that Pardons don't have to imply guilt (at least in a legal sense.)

Now, that doesn't mean there can't be repercussions.... even though accepting a pardon isn't a legal admission of guilt, it still may look bad to a jury, should someone be brought up on state level or civil charges.

See: Washington Post
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 10:15 AM   #90
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,280
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There was a case (Burdick v. United States) which people think makes that insinuation, but that was more a case of "can you reject a pardon" rather than "does it imply guilt".

Yep. That's all I'm aware of too.
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 10:17 AM   #91
dirtywick
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,806
can’t think of a reason why he wouldn’t. toothless Mike pence warning him not to
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 11:02 AM   #92
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,048
Trump worrying about how it would affect a civil case seems wildly optimistic. For a whole bunch of reasons the chances of him coming out of this with any assets that aren't judgement proof and/or totally hidden are slim and none.

Once the banks cut him off, he might struggle to pay his lawyers, were he willing to find someone to take his money. If those election lawsuits are any indication the people willing to help him are so bad that default would be the smarter choice. I mean, assuming his attorneys don't default him by accident by accidently filing their grocery list instead of an answer.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 11:04 AM   #93
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,745
I'm also wondering how many years Trump is thinking he has left.

I really do wonder what consequences he's worrying about at this point.
__________________
Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question."
Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..."
Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 11:29 AM   #94
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 50,121
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm also wondering how many years Trump is thinking he has left.

I really do wonder what consequences he's worrying about at this point.
Interesting question, does he comprehend his own mortality or not.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 11:33 AM   #95
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 4,048
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Interesting question, does he comprehend his own mortality or not.
No chance. Especially after he got COVID and was fine. He's a walking survival fallacy.

Consequences are not his thing. Which is why he's flying into a rage over having his toys taken away instead of realizing that he should be more worried about being sent to his room.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 11:34 AM   #96
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 16,780
Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
Trump worrying about how it would affect a civil case seems wildly optimistic. For a whole bunch of reasons the chances of him coming out of this with any assets that aren't judgement proof and/or totally hidden are slim and none.
WE might recognize that his financial empire will be harmed. But with Trump's massive ego, he might still believe that he'll still come out of this with his wealth intact.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2021, 12:14 PM   #97
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Port Townsend, Washington
Posts: 30,556
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm just wondering why Trump hasn't pardoned his kids yet.
He's insisting they pay him for it.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.