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Tags 2012 elections , barack obama , presidential candidates

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Old 2nd May 2012, 05:10 PM   #1
Tsukasa Buddha
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Reasons To Vote For/Against Obama

People are trying to make various lists for the "what has he done for/against us" voters.

Pro-Obama:

Quote:
  1. Extended child tax credits and marriage-penalty fixes
  2. Created an Advanced Manufacturing Fund to invest in peer-reviewed manufacturing processes
  3. Required economic justification for tax changes
  4. Implemented “Women Owned Business” contracting program
  5. Changed standards for determining broadband access
  6. Established a credit card bill of rights
  7. Expanded loan programs for small businesses
  8. Extended the Bush tax cuts for lower incomes
  9. Extended the 2007 Alternative MinimumTax patch
  10. Closed the “doughnut hole” in Medicare prescription drug plan
Linky.

My problem with this list is that it doesn't qualify who is taking the action. It is all being attributed to Obama, but the President doesn't have direct influence over most of these. To be useful I would prefer showing that Obama actively called for the action and/or Romney would have opposed the action.

The Anti-Obama list here has references for each item, and is slightly more organised. This one lists a lot of former lobbyists and top fundraisers that received positions in the administration. It also lists more executive actions.

My problem with both lists is that they remove the context of congressional negations.
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Old 5th May 2012, 08:51 AM   #2
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Anti:

Hope and change are good.
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The government should nationalize it! Socialized, single-payer video game development and sales now! More, cheaper, better games, right? Right?
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Old 5th May 2012, 09:20 AM   #3
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For me the foremost reason to vote for Obama would not be his accomplishments but the dismal state of his main opponent. Whenever I see Romney or pretty much anyone from the GOP cooking up word salads I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone.
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Old 5th May 2012, 09:56 AM   #4
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I feel like Obama could have accomplished a lot more were it not for the unprecedented level of partisanship, such as requiring a filibuster-proof margin for every action, regardless of how trivial. If he wins a second term, the GOP (hopefully) won't feel the need to run against him for four years and maybe more can be accomplished. But if Romney is elected, expect the Democrats to repay the GOP with exactly the kind of stonewallling that they were subjected to, and presto, we are stuck in low gear for four more years.

Last edited by Tricky; 5th May 2012 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:23 AM   #5
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When ever I get a bit frustrated that Obama isn't everything I want I think about what Tricky said regarding the partisanship and then I go HERE

Its actually an impressive list. He has my vote and I will be volunteering.
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:26 AM   #6
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From the link above.

Quote:
Created more private sector jobs in 2010 than during entire Bush years
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
People are trying to make various lists for the "what has he done for/against us" voters.

Pro-Obama:



Linky.

My problem with this list is that it doesn't qualify who is taking the action. It is all being attributed to Obama, but the President doesn't have direct influence over most of these. To be useful I would prefer showing that Obama actively called for the action and/or Romney would have opposed the action.

The Anti-Obama list here has references for each item, and is slightly more organised. This one lists a lot of former lobbyists and top fundraisers that received positions in the administration. It also lists more executive actions.

My problem with both lists is that they remove the context of congressional negations.
Been there, done that! Good luck!
I just find it amazing that both sides seem to be running against their opponents rather than on strong positive support for their party/circumstance selection.

Last minute third party's could make an interesting mess this fall.
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:01 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
When ever I get a bit frustrated that Obama isn't everything I want I think about what Tricky said regarding the partisanship and then I go HERE

Its actually an impressive list. He has my vote and I will be volunteering.
It's a shame because many of those go unreported or right under the radar. You would think something like the removal of the restrictions on stem cell research would've been met with more fanfare.
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:29 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
From the link above.
Half True:http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-jobs-created/

And Pelosis claim that ""In the first year of the Obama administration, more jobs were created in the private sector than in the eight years of the Bush administration." Is Flat out False:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...bamas-first-y/
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Old 5th May 2012, 01:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
It's a shame because many of those go unreported or right under the radar. You would think something like the removal of the restrictions on stem cell research would've been met with more fanfare. http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...ley_shrug1.gif
It was HUGE in the stem cell community!

Originally Posted by Neally View Post
Half True:http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-jobs-created/

And Pelosis claim that ""In the first year of the Obama administration, more jobs were created in the private sector than in the eight years of the Bush administration." Is Flat out False:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...bamas-first-y/
I see. Nit picking but Pelosi claimed 8 months while the website I quoted said all of 2010. Could be the same cherry picking though.

What I really learned from your link is that he is a small government job creator.
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Old 5th May 2012, 02:58 PM   #11
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Here's one really good reason to vote for Obama:



And he was able to accomplish this despite continual opposition from Republicans ever since he took office.
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Old 5th May 2012, 04:13 PM   #12
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Anti:

-Renewed the Bush tax cuts.
-Renewed the PATRIOT Act.
-Expanded the TSA.
-Fast And Furious.
-More raids on medical marijuana clinics than during the George W. Bush administration, which is a broken campaign promise. Nancy Pelosi recently blasted the Obama administration for this, for which I am grateful to her.
-Opposition to gay marriage.
-Unsustainable levels of debt. In 2008, Senator Obama criticized the Bush administration for running up $4 trillion in debt in eight years. In the last three years we've run up another $5 trillion.

Before you tell me that the GOP is just as bad or worse, I have absolutely no intention of voting for Mitt Romney either.
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Last edited by ravdin; 5th May 2012 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 5th May 2012, 04:58 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
-Fast And Furious.

Fast and Furious was a tactical failure of the ATF and the Justice Department. Not Obama.

Originally Posted by Biscuit
It was HUGE in the stem cell community!
I'm sure. Too bad it didn't receive much acknowledgement outside of the stem cell community.
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Old 5th May 2012, 05:06 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
Fast and Furious was a tactical failure of the ATF and the Justice Department. Not Obama.
Wrong. There was extensive communication between the White House and the Phoenix ATF office during that time.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html
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Old 5th May 2012, 05:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
Wrong. There was extensive communication between the White House and the Phoenix ATF office during that time.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html
How does that contradict what I said?
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Old 5th May 2012, 07:24 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by -hp- View Post
For me the foremost reason to vote for Obama would not be his accomplishments but the dismal state of his main opponent. Whenever I see Romney or pretty much anyone from the GOP cooking up word salads I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone.
Four years ago, Wall Street investment banks and hedge funds cratered our nation's economy. Most of the nation is still trying to recover from the crash. Isn't it a bit early to elect a Wall Street hedge fund guy as President?
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Old 5th May 2012, 09:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
....
My problem with this list is that it doesn't qualify who is taking the action. It is all being attributed to Obama, but the President doesn't have direct influence over most of these. To be useful I would prefer showing that Obama actively called for the action and/or Romney would have opposed the action.

The Anti-Obama list here has references for each item, and is slightly more organised. This one lists a lot of former lobbyists and top fundraisers that received positions in the administration. It also lists more executive actions.

My problem with both lists is that they remove the context of congressional negations.
A while back I started a thread which, paraphrased, asked what, exactly each of the last 10 POTUS "had done". The very point was that this requires one to try to think out what he presided over, versus what he actually did himself either directly, or by championing.

Yes, you've asked a good question.
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Old 5th May 2012, 09:59 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ravdin View Post
Anti:

-Renewed the Bush tax cuts.
-Renewed the PATRIOT Act.
-Expanded the TSA.
-Fast And Furious.
-More raids on medical marijuana clinics than during the George W. Bush administration, which is a broken campaign promise. Nancy Pelosi recently blasted the Obama administration for this, for which I am grateful to her.
-Opposition to gay marriage.
-Unsustainable levels of debt. In 2008, Senator Obama criticized the Bush administration for running up $4 trillion in debt in eight years. In the last three years we've run up another $5 trillion.
This tracks pretty well with my disappointment list, and with the letters I've sent him... I'd add to that a comment about the space program, however since I work there I'm reluctant to express my feelings in public. (Full disclaimer: This post, and all my posts, made with my own materials on my own time.)

I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much.

2. Pleased with his foreign policy, including staying out of Libya, staying out of Syria, backing away from bombing Iran, etc. despite overwhelming pressure to go in guns hot

3. Pragmatic. For instance, everyone told me (and is STILL telling me) he'd come for my guns, but... he hasn't. The man knows how to pick his battles.

I'd like to see solid proposals for the following:

(a) Tax reform -- while we'll never see a true flat tax, the more recent "Buffett Rule" proposals are starting to creep in this direction.

(b) Address the debt, including spending cuts. Start with the military. I'm not saying "gut it," but there's a lot of flat-out pork and outdated strategic thinking there.

(c) Try to fix up health care some more -- don't just junk Obamacare, fix it. What passed is a weird compromise and it has some sharp edges. Is it Constitutional? Well, is universal health care a right, or a service? I say the former, under the 14th Amendment, but this philosophy has consequences that push us towards a single-payer model.

(d) In the same vein take a firm and principled stand on civil rights, all civil rights, and that means no-buts equality for gays and women. Just do it. While we're at it let's incorporate the 2nd Amendment.

Give me say two out of those four, and I could vote for him enthusiastically. Likewise, I'd invite Romney to do the same, but somehow I doubt he shares my opinions.
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Old 5th May 2012, 11:29 PM   #19
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Well said, R.Mackey.

To be fair on the "anti" list, I don't think Obama ever said he was going to try to help get gay marriage passed. He's not personally in favor and said as much even back in 2008. What I expect from him on that part is to not get in the way when it comes time for the legislature or the judiciary to fix the current built-in prejudice.

Of course, he could take a page from Cory Booker's (mayor of Newark, NJ) tome, and actually make a public and amazing statement of reality:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

That took a lot of guts to say as an elected official. There needs to be more of that.
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Old 6th May 2012, 02:03 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
This tracks pretty well with my disappointment list, and with the letters I've sent him... I'd add to that a comment about the space program, however since I work there I'm reluctant to express my feelings in public. (Full disclaimer: This post, and all my posts, made with my own materials on my own time.)

I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much.

2. Pleased with his foreign policy, including staying out of Libya, staying out of Syria, backing away from bombing Iran, etc. despite overwhelming pressure to go in guns hot

3. Pragmatic. For instance, everyone told me (and is STILL telling me) he'd come for my guns, but... he hasn't. The man knows how to pick his battles.

I'd like to see solid proposals for the following:

(a) Tax reform -- while we'll never see a true flat tax, the more recent "Buffett Rule" proposals are starting to creep in this direction.

(b) Address the debt, including spending cuts. Start with the military. I'm not saying "gut it," but there's a lot of flat-out pork and outdated strategic thinking there.

(c) Try to fix up health care some more -- don't just junk Obamacare, fix it. What passed is a weird compromise and it has some sharp edges. Is it Constitutional? Well, is universal health care a right, or a service? I say the former, under the 14th Amendment, but this philosophy has consequences that push us towards a single-payer model.

(d) In the same vein take a firm and principled stand on civil rights, all civil rights, and that means no-buts equality for gays and women. Just do it. While we're at it let's incorporate the 2nd Amendment.

Give me say two out of those four, and I could vote for him enthusiastically. Likewise, I'd invite Romney to do the same, but somehow I doubt he shares my opinions.
I agree with almost everything you said except healthcare. I believe that the ultimate goal of the Healthcare bill should aim at increasing wellness and reducing healthcare cost, but not mandating universal healthcare. As much as I like the altruistic intent of universal healthcare it's dead in the water until the inflating cost of healthcare is handled. I do think that if universal healthcare were implemented now it must allow for Health Insurance providers to have more discretion for the sake of pragmatism, not altruism.

Also, I think that civil unions should be taken as a new standard and marriage as we know it become outmoded. Again, it's more pragmatic.

I still like Obama and I actually like Mitt when he's not stroking the Republicans. I just think that it doesn't matter which one gets in office, it's Congress itself that needs serious fixing with more moderates and less fanaticism.

Originally Posted by ravdin
-Unsustainable levels of debt. In 2008, Senator Obama criticized the Bush administration for running up $4 trillion in debt in eight years. In the last three years we've run up another $5 trillion.
Is the debt a problem of executive administration or congress?
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Old 6th May 2012, 03:16 AM   #21
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I find it remarkable that judicial appointments, probably the most lasting effect of any administration, has not been mentioned. If Romney is elected and gets one (or more) appointments to the Supreme Court, the conservative (corporate) wing will have control for all of our lifetimes (unless you're posting here and are three years old).
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Old 6th May 2012, 09:54 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
This tracks pretty well with my disappointment list, and with the letters I've sent him... I'd add to that a comment about the space program, however since I work there I'm reluctant to express my feelings in public. (Full disclaimer: This post, and all my posts, made with my own materials on my own time.)

I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much......
OF COURSE!!!! What's a couple thousand murdered Mexicans! Party on!

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Old 6th May 2012, 10:19 AM   #23
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So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The IRA ain't gonna like this.
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Old 6th May 2012, 10:37 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The IRA ain't gonna like this.
While I doubt the IRA would like it, I'm pretty sure it would cause more of a public uproar in association with the NRA membership.

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Old 6th May 2012, 10:40 AM   #25
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Old 6th May 2012, 11:36 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
OF COURSE!!!! What's a couple thousand murdered Mexicans! Party on!

I assure you thousands of Mexicans would be dead with or without U.S. weapons falling into cartel hands.
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Old 6th May 2012, 01:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
OF COURSE!!!! What's a couple thousand murdered Mexicans! Party on!

Guns don't kill people.


Eta: I see I was beat to the punch on this one.
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Old 6th May 2012, 01:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The IRA ain't gonna like this.
The st. Patrick's brigade is probably pissed!

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Old 6th May 2012, 02:51 PM   #29
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Oopsie. I meant NRA of course. National Recovery Act.
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Old 6th May 2012, 04:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Lowpro View Post
I agree with almost everything you said except healthcare. I believe that the ultimate goal of the Healthcare bill should aim at increasing wellness and reducing healthcare cost, but not mandating universal healthcare. As much as I like the altruistic intent of universal healthcare it's dead in the water until the inflating cost of healthcare is handled. I do think that if universal healthcare were implemented now it must allow for Health Insurance providers to have more discretion for the sake of pragmatism, not altruism.
I can't really disagree with you -- there are two ways to look at it, both valid.

Reducing healthcare costs is a tough one, partly because of where those dollars are going. About half of healthcare money is spent in the last six months of a patient's life, and a sizable chunk of the rest goes to the uninsured crashing emergency rooms and being inefficiently reimbursed. Both of these are things that could be significantly reduced by universal health care in my opinion.

But on the other hand, there are going to be some procedures and options that are such long-shots that, if everyone gets access, could theoretically wind up costing far more. (Cue the "Death Panels" nonsense.) There has to be some sort of prudent limit or it won't work.

It's a tricky problem, which is part of the reason we wound up with such a strange compromise so far...

---


Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
OF COURSE!!!! What's a couple thousand murdered Mexicans! Party on!

Uh... ?que? Can you explain, please?
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Old 6th May 2012, 04:58 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The [NRA] ain't gonna like this.

One need not be against gun ownership by responsible citizens to appreciate the stupidity of passing them out like candy to Mexican drug gangs along the border.
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Old 6th May 2012, 05:51 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
I find it remarkable that judicial appointments, probably the most lasting effect of any administration, has not been mentioned. If Romney is elected and gets one (or more) appointments to the Supreme Court, the conservative (corporate) wing will have control for all of our lifetimes (unless you're posting here and are three years old).
This ^

More people should be thinking about the effects of the next POTUS on the courts.
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Old 6th May 2012, 08:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by shuize View Post
One need not be against gun ownership by responsible citizens to appreciate the stupidity of passing them out like candy to Mexican drug gangs along the border.
I think everybody agrees that the operation was a complete failure. I don't think that's being disputed. No doubt the notion of "gunwalking" is deeply flawed. According to wiki 200 deaths were linked to guns walked by the ATF (though i'm not sure the availability of the guns led to any actual increase in violence).
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Old 7th May 2012, 04:37 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
This tracks pretty well with my disappointment list, and with the letters I've sent him... I'd add to that a comment about the space program, however since I work there I'm reluctant to express my feelings in public. (Full disclaimer: This post, and all my posts, made with my own materials on my own time.)

I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much.

2. Pleased with his foreign policy, including staying out of Libya, staying out of Syria, backing away from bombing Iran, etc. despite overwhelming pressure to go in guns hot

3. Pragmatic. For instance, everyone told me (and is STILL telling me) he'd come for my guns, but... he hasn't. The man knows how to pick his battles.

I'd like to see solid proposals for the following:

(a) Tax reform -- while we'll never see a true flat tax, the more recent "Buffett Rule" proposals are starting to creep in this direction.

(b) Address the debt, including spending cuts. Start with the military. I'm not saying "gut it," but there's a lot of flat-out pork and outdated strategic thinking there.

(c) Try to fix up health care some more -- don't just junk Obamacare, fix it. What passed is a weird compromise and it has some sharp edges. Is it Constitutional? Well, is universal health care a right, or a service? I say the former, under the 14th Amendment, but this philosophy has consequences that push us towards a single-payer model.

(d) In the same vein take a firm and principled stand on civil rights, all civil rights, and that means no-buts equality for gays and women. Just do it. While we're at it let's incorporate the 2nd Amendment.

Give me say two out of those four, and I could vote for him enthusiastically. Likewise, I'd invite Romney to do the same, but somehow I doubt he shares my opinions.
Like republicans would let any of that happen. Debt is too useful an issue to them to let people do anything about it.
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Old 7th May 2012, 05:09 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by GreNME View Post
Well said, R.Mackey.

To be fair on the "anti" list, I don't think Obama ever said he was going to try to help get gay marriage passed. He's not personally in favor and said as much even back in 2008. What I expect from him on that part is to not get in the way when it comes time for the legislature or the judiciary to fix the current built-in prejudice.
In other words, "everybody knows he's in favor of it and is just saying he's not so he can get elected."



Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The IRA ain't gonna like this.
When fed to criminals, yes. The question is whether it is worth it to authorize government to restrict availability in general. It's nice to think we've perfected humanity and that overbearing government will never get out of control again for ever and ever.
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Old 7th May 2012, 07:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Tricky View Post
So the free availability of guns causes murders. Is that the official conservative position now? The IRA ain't gonna like this.
Chalk one up to Tricky: Turning murder into political spin.

Try again please. This time discuss the requirement for strict NCIS background federal level check for US Citizens buying firearms and the active, encouraged (or required waiving) of that check (By ATF personnel, talking with gun store owners) for gun runners to Mexican drug cartels.

Better: Just don't. This is an indefensible issue and a complete embarrassment to the Obama administration and the country.

Seriously.

Last edited by mhaze; 7th May 2012 at 07:15 AM.
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Old 7th May 2012, 07:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by R.Mackey View Post
....I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much.

2. Pleased with his foreign policy, including staying out of Libya, staying out of Syria, backing away from bombing Iran, etc. despite overwhelming pressure to go in guns hot

3. Pragmatic. For instance, everyone told me (and is STILL telling me) he'd come for my guns, but... he hasn't. The man knows how to pick his battles.

I'd like to see solid proposals for the following: .....
Respectfully, your hope for solid proposals are not positives. As for your positives, curiously, they are not positives either.

1. The most civilian dead as a result of government policy is the "least scandal plagued?"
2. There was NO overwhelming pressure to go into Libya, Syria, or Iran, and is not to this day.
3. Pragmatic? The Admin has publicly and repeatedly stated they intend to control guns, and the Bamster was made to back off from a restriction he attempted to put through executive order.

So basically, you like the guy, but you don't have any positives?

As for space, you can certainly chalk a bit "Not For Space" mark up on the Bamster. He's destroyed the US program as we knew it, and the planned forward thinking directions. Namely, the shuttle replacement man rated booster systems. If as is possible, private companies pick up the slack, Bamster doesn't get the credit for that - the private companies that risked their capital do. You don't need to respond to this and yes you are correct to be concerned about those bastards reading your email on or off work.

Last edited by mhaze; 7th May 2012 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 7th May 2012, 07:26 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
I think everybody agrees that the operation was a complete failure. I don't think that's being disputed. No doubt the notion of "gunwalking" is deeply flawed. According to wiki 200 deaths were linked to guns walked by the ATF (though i'm not sure the availability of the guns led to any actual increase in violence).
Congressman Darrell Issa made the claim of 200 deaths, roughly one death for every ten guns that leaked through the system. It's unclear if there is any hard data to back up that number.
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Old 7th May 2012, 09:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Congressman Darrell Issa made the claim of 200 deaths, roughly one death for every ten guns that leaked through the system. It's unclear if there is any hard data to back up that number.
I think we can trust him on the numbers.

Of course then there's the Mexican police helicopter shot down by a 50 caliber gun sold to the gangs through the gun runner program.

Thousands of assault rifles including the 50 cals cannot help but change the nature of a conflict. Areas of the border on our side are now completely unsafe due to cartel members literally commanding "the high ground", positioned on mountains. Border agents are not equipped to cope with para military operational tactics, neither is the DEA, or the ATF. This is the direct result of Obama's administration policy, mind you. Focusing back on the OP and Mackey's assertion:

I do have some positives, however:

1. Competence. Got a lot done considering how the Legislature is stacked against him. Least scandal-plagued administration since... hmm. Ike? Besides Fast 'n Furious, there ain't much.


The highest civilian death count prior to the Bamster was Clinton, 41 dead at the Koresh/Waco fiasco.

What's that jumped to under the Bamster?

Competence?

Least scandal-plagued admin?

It's truly honest sarcasm when I quip:

"Hey, don't worry about it. They're just Mexicans. Party ON!" (and keep up the bigoted, prejudiced, and rude attacks on Republicans, please. It continues to show what kind of people we have in ideological Democrats today).

Last edited by mhaze; 7th May 2012 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 7th May 2012, 10:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
Congressman Darrell Issa made the claim of 200 deaths, roughly one death for every ten guns that leaked through the system. It's unclear if there is any hard data to back up that number.
Isn''''''''''t he the one with car theft on his resme?
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