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Tags bigfoot , bigfoot sightings , NAWAC

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Old 5th March 2015, 01:01 PM   #41
William Parcher
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She has shifted the burden of proof to the skeptics. She demands that everyone read what NAWAC is saying and then offer a plausible explanation.

Slick Frontman Brian Brown found a way to pick her locks. But that can only happen when the locks are no good.
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Old 5th March 2015, 01:54 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
It's a bloviating mess of over 200 pages of BLAARGarbage. I can't see what anyone would find compelling in that document or in the project. I'm at a complete loss to explain Sharon's warm fuzzies about it, and I went to her site and posted so.

It's the same crap over and over and over. Do we need a new metaphor? This is drowning a bowl of spaghetti beneath a bathtub of tomato juice rather than dressing it with 2 tablespoons of flavorful, basil-infused marinara.
Yeah, I went and read your comment, then noticed the rather nitwitted one that replied, then read a few more comments that seemed to be giving this . . . paper the benefit of the doubt.

Is everyone on dope?
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Old 5th March 2015, 01:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She has shifted the burden of proof to the skeptics. She demands that everyone read what NAWAC is saying and then offer a plausible explanation.
I'm pretty sure she's overlooking the most plausible explanation of all. Old Grey? Bright eyes? Geez, c'mon.

Quote:
Slick Frontman Brian Brown found a way to pick her locks. But that can only happen when the locks are no good.
I'm pretty sure they've done a footie podcast together.
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:22 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Squatchy McSquatch View Post
Drew The Authors were foolish not to use your drawings. Your artwork makes me truly sympathetic to BF and his plight.

Poor Gablemp. He can never catch a break.

Here are words of wisdom from co-author Kathy Strain:"Hey, knowledge is power and power is more than 2 pages.... Read it - you will learn a lot of knowledge!"

What does this mean, exactly?
That Kathy Strain's condescension knows no bounds

Last edited by Cervelo; 5th March 2015 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:26 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
She demands that everyone read what NAWAC is saying and then offer a plausible explanation.
So she admits she doesn't have one?
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
So she admits she doesn't have one?
Seems that way. Basically she says that if they were being hoaxed it would not go on as long as it has and in the ways that it has.

She has no more ideas than that? Did she forget to wear her critical thinking hat?
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:43 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Seems that way. Basically she says that if they were being hoaxed it would not go on as long as it has and in the ways that it has.

She has no more ideas than that? Did she forget to wear her critical thinking hat?
You forget that she had something to gain by the one case being true. She doesn't care what the truth is because she gains from the falsehoods.
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
I'm pretty sure they've done a footie podcast together.
Lesson 1: Never ever trust a Bigfooter.

If you collaborate with them they will use it to their advantage. Befriending or working with a Bigfooter will cause skepticism to be prostituted within Bigfootery.

Never ever trust a Bigfooter. Never ever.
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Lesson 1: Never ever trust a Bigfooter.

If you collaborate with them they will use it to their advantage. Befriending or working with a Bigfooter will cause skepticism to be prostituted within Bigfootery.

Never ever trust a Bigfooter. Never ever.
How about a Proudfooter?
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Old 5th March 2015, 02:55 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Lesson 1: Never ever trust a Bigfooter.

If you collaborate with them they will use it to their advantage. Befriending or working with a Bigfooter will cause skepticism to be prostituted within Bigfootery.

Never ever trust a Bigfooter. Never ever.
Now Brian Brown is adding his commentary to the peanut gallery. I don't like the look of this at all.
http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/03/four...ults/#comments


Originally Posted by Brian Brown
You don’t know me (or anyone else involved) but I can assure you that’s not the case. As the paper states, there are quite a few behavioral attributes we now ascribe to apes that were not the case early on. We approach our work with a fair and reasonable amount of skepticism.
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Old 5th March 2015, 03:04 PM   #51
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He'll take a beating the comments there, but can't handle it in here...
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Old 5th March 2015, 03:27 PM   #52
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You would have to be certifiably daft to know the history of Bigfoot & Bigfooting and still be able to give the benefit of the doubt to folks like the NAWACs. Is it because they don't have a southern accent? It's gotta be something like that since it's not about any "factualities". They've supplied the same amount of real world Bigfoot evidence as anyone else who's ever claimed the same lunacy, NONE. Yet, in a trend that's unmistakable in its stupidity, WE'RE now the bad guys for not capriciously disavowing our skepticism (empiricism) and offering up similar sympathies to essentially a bunch of Internet trolls who vacation in Oklahoma and who don't actually have or do anything Bigfoot except verbalize lunatic Bigfoot claims as a group. Talk about AMAZING!

Anyone care to explain what the **** makes lying as a member of NAWAC so much more desirable than lying as simply a member of society? Is it the free firewood?

Last edited by HarryHenderson; 5th March 2015 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 5th March 2015, 04:44 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I liked the Michigan Recording Project habituation scam better because they had the cool fake Bigfoot sounds to listen to. The NAWAC doesn't have anything like that - they only have stories.
Read aloud.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:05 PM   #54
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The stupidity of the footers, the ghosters, the UFOols, etc., can be documented by the amount of pandering we see on the TV. People hunt bigfeets all season and don't find it. The viewers can't wait for season 2.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:17 PM   #55
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"We approach our work with a fair and reasonable amount of skepticism." Like hell. You guys are Bigfooters so your skepticism is a phony pretend game. Who do you think you are fooling? Oh right, you fooled Sharon.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:24 PM   #56
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What I don't understand is that Sharon seems to be completely discounting dishonesty. Why does she believe everything they say? I just assume most of them are lying or exaggerating.

A rock was thrown on the roof by an unknown tosser? How do we know that when all we see is a rock sitting on the roof? I don't grant any premise presented by anyone in NAWAC or footers in general. Otherwise I will assume one of them threw the rock just as easily as anyone or anything else.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:29 PM   #57
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Or that a rock was never even thrown by any kind of agent.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:35 PM   #58
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Lets see Sharon's a pro "skeptic" blogger and Brian's got a product to sell....I can't think of a better salesman for your NAWACKY world of Bigfoot than an attractive, well spoken, respected? skeptic.
Blogger...Blagger....Blagger.... Blogger...match made in heaven!

Last edited by Cervelo; 5th March 2015 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:40 PM   #59
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It must always be understood that BLAARGing is a conspiracy in which all of the Bigfooters understand how to proceed conspiratorily even when the guidelines are completely unspoken. A conspiracy where the conspiracy is not discussed by the conspirators.

This is Critical Thinking 101.
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Old 5th March 2015, 05:55 PM   #60
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The Valley of the Wood Apes

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It must always be understood that BLAARGing is a conspiracy in which all of the Bigfooters understand how to proceed conspiratorily even when the guidelines are completely unspoken. A conspiracy where the conspiracy is not discussed by the conspirators.

This is Critical Thinking 101.

The first rule of BLAARG Club is: You do not talk about BLAARG Club.
The second rule of BLAARG Club is: You do not talk about BLAARG Club.

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Old 5th March 2015, 07:21 PM   #61
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Now Brown is talking about a guy at Area X who got hit in the foot with a rock and saw the Bigfoot throw it. It was up in a tree and he saw the dark hairy arm swing around the trunk to throw. But then there is no mention of filming the Bigfoot when it eventually and inevitably climbed down from the tree. Get your camera out and don't take your eyes off of that tree!

No, that didn't happen. It never happens and it never will. LOL.

The guy who saw the Bigfoot arm in the tree is a liar. Oh and Brown says that lots of rocks came flying out of the tree, so Bigfoot brings them up there in his cheek pouches before lobbing away. LOL

You have to laugh thinking that these loons are expecting their audience to treat this seriously.
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Old 5th March 2015, 07:55 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by HarryHenderson View Post
You would have to be certifiably daft to know the history of Bigfoot & Bigfooting and still be able to give the benefit of the doubt to folks like the NAWACs. Is it because they don't have a southern accent? It's gotta be something like that since it's not about any "factualities". They've supplied the same amount of real world Bigfoot evidence as anyone else who's ever claimed the same lunacy, NONE. Yet, in a trend that's unmistakable in its stupidity, WE'RE now the bad guys for not capriciously disavowing our skepticism (empiricism) and offering up similar sympathies to essentially a bunch of Internet trolls who vacation in Oklahoma and who don't actually have or do anything Bigfoot except verbalize lunatic Bigfoot claims as a group. Talk about AMAZING!

Anyone care to explain what the **** makes lying as a member of NAWAC so much more desirable than lying as simply a member of society? Is it the free firewood?
NAWAC has gained some traction in the mainstream media and with skeptics like Sharon Hill because their endeavors appear earnest and unsensational, thoughtful, and they are credentialed, to a degree, and have applied a methodology to their research.

You are correct to point out that they really haven't produced results commensurate with the traction they are enjoying (even if the traction is still small).

I think the events in the so-called Valley of the Wood Apes are a complex mixture of hoaxing, true believer gullibility, and dishonesty. I don't think any one such ingredient suffices, by itself, to explain what has happened there.

In short form here is what I think has happened:

1. Someone led NAWAC to this particular site for the purpose of hoaxing them to gain attention to the area as a hotspot of Bigfoot activity.

2. NAWAC is made up of true believers who uncritically accepted certain hoaxed events without much concern for the innate implausibility of such events.

3. Growing frustrated with the lack of substantiation over the years at Area X for their belief in Bigfoot, certain members created their own substantiation by having sightings.
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Old 5th March 2015, 07:57 PM   #63
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Here's a reply to Sharon's bigfoot thread that didn't make it through moderation.

Sharon,
Who hacked your site???
Those of us who have dealt with Mr. Brown for years know that he is not to be believed. He and his friends have been running this scam on the IRS for years. They go camping and he writes it off his taxes because he is ‘preserving bigfoot habitat’, according to his non-profit status.
And don’t forget that he owns his own marketing company.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:01 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Now Brown is talking about a guy at Area X who got hit in the foot with a rock and saw the Bigfoot throw it. It was up in a tree and he saw the dark hairy arm swing around the trunk to throw. But then there is no mention of filming the Bigfoot when it eventually and inevitably climbed down from the tree. Get your camera out and don't take your eyes off of that tree!

No, that didn't happen. It never happens and it never will. LOL.

The guy who saw the Bigfoot arm in the tree is a liar. Oh and Brown says that lots of rocks came flying out of the tree, so Bigfoot brings them up there in his cheek pouches before lobbing away. LOL

You have to laugh thinking that these loons are expecting their audience to treat this seriously.
I asked Brown at Hill's I DOUBT IT page about the ability of a wood ape to have seven to ten rocks on its self while in a tree. My question hasn't gone through moderation yet; we will have to wait to see what kind of answer Brown will offer, if any.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:03 PM   #65
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Expect the answer as, "we don't know and still have much to learn".
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:07 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Expect the answer as, "we don't know and still have much to learn".
So far he is being calm, thoughtful Brian. Eventually, someone is going to get his dander up and he will go away. In a huff.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:10 PM   #67
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Which is exactly what he would want to happen. It's an easy way to end the conversation. As it stands, he has to decide when to stop replying to comments.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:19 PM   #68
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I had some fun recently taking random photos of branches in the woods and blowing them up to find bigfoot faces. Next, I will try throwing rocks in woods and check my accuracy and distance. It doesn't matter how much bigger, stronger, and more skilled a bigfoot rock-pitcher is compared to me, he's still only gonna have a clear throwing lane for probably <50 m through those woods. That's what I want to test - at what distance can one throw an accurate rock through mature woodland?
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:22 PM   #69
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Here is a comment by Sharon Hill: "Now we’re pushing skepticism to pathological cynicism."

I tend to agree with her on this, up to a point. While I think there are credible grounds to challenge NAWAC's account of what they experienced, the easy, first stop, dismissal of their assertions and arguments as nothing but lies has never held much appeal to me. Such an approach is cynicism, to be sure, but is it pathological?
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:23 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I had some fun recently taking random photos of branches in the woods and blowing them up to find bigfoot faces. Next, I will try throwing rocks in woods and check my accuracy and distance. It doesn't matter how much bigger, stronger, and more skilled a bigfoot rock-pitcher is compared to me, he's still only gonna have a clear throwing lane for probably <50 m through those woods. That's what I want to test - at what distance can one throw an accurate rock through mature woodland?
To test it accurately you need a couple dudes near the receiving end with no nightvision or thermal gear and the guys throwing it have it. This way you can determine at what distance you can safely toss the rocks/candy without being seen. Common technique for the footer camp parties. Have a couple dudes in the woods with gen3 night vision that are familiar with the landscape in the area. "no human could move that fast at night" uhh, yeah you can. There are a lot of military operations done specifically at night using that gear for the same reasons.

However, in the "wood apes" claim case, i think it's pure stories and lack of reality. That would certainly explain the lack of any credible evidence.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Here is a comment by Sharon Hill: "Now we’re pushing skepticism to pathological cynicism."

I tend to agree with her on this, up to a point. While I think there are credible grounds to challenge NAWAC's account of what they experienced, the easy, first stop, dismissal of their assertions and arguments as nothing but lies has never held much appeal to me. Such an approach is cynicism, to be sure, but is it pathological?
I don't know about cynicism, pathological or not, but anyone who accepts any of this hooey at face value is certainly gullible.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Here is a comment by Sharon Hill: "Now we’re pushing skepticism to pathological cynicism."

I tend to agree with her on this, up to a point. While I think there are credible grounds to challenge NAWAC's account of what they experienced, the easy, first stop, dismissal of their assertions and arguments as nothing but lies has never held much appeal to me. Such an approach is cynicism, to be sure, but is it pathological?
How could we doubt an after action report.

23:55

While [John] Dollens was pointing the flashlight to the northwest, Lawrence
spotted extremely large yellowish white eye shine about 15
-
20 yards away on the sl
ope
of the mountain to the northeast. When Lawrence first spotted the eye shine, there
was no light being shown directly at it. There was only a small amount of ambient
light reaching them from the periphery of the beam on the light J. Dollens was
holding.
Lawrence could clearly see both eyes, the reflections of which were oval
-
shaped and about the size of tennis balls. Lawrence witnessed the eyes quickly sweep
from looking southwest, to looking southeast, then vanishing. Lawrence quickly got
the attention
of J. Dollens and directed him to shine the light where Lawrence had
seen the eye shine. Shortly after J. Dollens centered the light on the area, Lawrence
and J. Dollens caught another glimmer of eye shine and...J. Dollens, from his
position, could see the
outline of the head and shoulders of an ape... J. Dollens said
that the animal was “huge, with little or no neck” and was “black or dark brown.”
Because the eye shine was not round and was so vibrant and bright, Lawrence
nicknamed the ape “Ironman.”
(
Adapte
d from
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after
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:34 PM   #73
William Parcher
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Cynicism is the only realistic way to look at Bigfootery. Expect absolutely nothing of substance to come from Bigfootery. Don't believe what the Bigfooters tell you.

You just can't go wrong by applying cynicism to the Bigfoot topic.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:41 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
. . . first stop, dismissal of their assertions and arguments as nothing but lies . . . Such an approach is cynicism, to be sure, but is it pathological?
No, there's nothing sure about it. At what point are we allowed to consider the vastly more likely explanation without being labeled as closed-minded or cynical?

First stop? What on earth is different about NAWAC compared to dozens of similar scenarios we've considered in the past? Heck, rock-throwing goes all the way back to Ape Canyon. It's been specifically part of the local southeastern Oklahoma folklore since before Honobia started their annual festival. What else have they got? Claims of sightings? Weird sounds in the night? Cameras that can't record them? Never heard those before . . . yeah right.
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Old 5th March 2015, 08:45 PM   #75
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[quote=Cervelo;10511481]Having spent some time in the area that I suspect NAWACKY Valley is locate.
http://i796.photobucket.com/albums/y...CDA1C7B581.png

I would place Area X north of 63, for the reason that the NAWAC web page places it above 63:
http://woodape.org/reports/report/detail/457

On the other hand, NAWAC may be offering a ruse here to steer folks away from the real site. The report above mentions cabins on the Little River -- as best I can tell, the Little River would be west and south of this site, and near Honobia.
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:08 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
No, there's nothing sure about it. At what point are we allowed to consider the vastly more likely explanation without being labeled as closed-minded or cynical?

First stop? What on earth is different about NAWAC compared to dozens of similar scenarios we've considered in the past? Heck, rock-throwing goes all the way back to Ape Canyon. It's been specifically part of the local southeastern Oklahoma folklore since before Honobia started their annual festival. What else have they got? Claims of sightings? Weird sounds in the night? Cameras that can't record them? Never heard those before . . . yeah right.
Since when does dismissing virtually everything concerning Bigfoot as a knowing lie become a "vastly more likely explanation?" It's not, in my book. I would say that the idea that NAWAC just made up everything they reported, that they bold faced lied about everything, is an explanation that has its own problems.

To be clear about Hill's complaint, I must add that she was addressing folks who did not read the report and still wanted to dismiss it out of hand.

Although you don't hold this view, I don't think, there are skeptics who believe positively that Bigfoot does not exist and cannot exist. They are not just skeptical, they are "knowers" in their own right; they know Bigfoot does not exist. Given this, they have no openness whatsoever to the possibility of Bigfoot. The cynicism comes into play when they also believe no one else could really believe in Bigfoot either. It is a small step from there to calling people liars over Bigfoot. It is a first stop, easy way to dismiss the phenomena.
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:10 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
dismissal of their assertions and arguments as nothing but lies
If you ever decide to start up a band I think you should call it Jerry and the Straw Men.
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:13 PM   #78
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Jerry, when you say that such-and-such isn't a lie you are stating that as speculative opinion, is that right?
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:15 PM   #79
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When you say that so-and-so Bigfooter is a true believer you are stating that as speculative opinion, is that right?
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Old 5th March 2015, 09:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Cynicism is the only realistic way to look at Bigfootery. Expect absolutely nothing of substance to come from Bigfootery. Don't believe what the Bigfooters tell you.

You just can't go wrong by applying cynicism to the Bigfoot topic.
I would agree with you that no one ought believe what the Bigfooters tell us. We are not obligated. But I think Hill is arguing that we ought not be so totally closed-minded that we easily dismiss claims without giving a hearing whatsoever. Who knows, maybe there IS something there. (I seriously doubt there is, but I know I may be wrong.) Cynicism is not the same thing as skepticism.

My complaint is that the idea that we can dismiss NAWAC as just a bunch of liars cannot be assumed off hand, and is probably itself a dubious assumption.
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