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#81 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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Yes, shots were fired at least, "thrice". Hank's "two shot" theory is easily refuted.
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And there is a much better way to evaluate witness testimonies, than to make sweeping generalizations about their accuracy or inaccuracy. We can test some of the most important statements, with the Zapruder film. That's why the limo passengers are such valuable witnesses. Mrs. Connally "said" that she heard one shot, then looked back at JFK, then heard a "second shot" which provoked her to turn back to her husband and pull him back to her. Was she correct? The Zapruder film will tell us, beyond all reasonable doubt. http://jfkhistory.com/nellie2.gif In the film, we can see, not only that she looked back at Kennedy, exactly as she claimed, but we can see WHEN she did that, which in this case, is even more important. She looked back at about frame 258. Did she then, reacted to a second shot, by turning back to her husand, as she testified? Look at the Zapruder segment again. She did exactly as she stated, snapping away from JFK and to her husband, in perfect unison with Jackie and Kellerman ducking and Greer spinning around, as in his panic, he accidentally lifted his foot from the gas. She also reacted in EXACTLY the same instant that Zapruder reacted.
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The only silenced rifles considered reliable in 1963 were 9mm or .45 caliber. He has failed to document that assertion, but subsonic ammunition for both of those calibers was and is, commonly available. So at the very least, he has confirmed that two of the most popular calibers of rifles/ammunition could have been used.
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The shots at the end, were obviously, not suppressed and were infinitely louder.
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The ones at 285 and 313 were many times louder and provoked dramatic and very obvious, startle reactions. Notice that the suppressed shots stopped when the limo went out of range. Only then, were the high powered rifles fired. |
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#82 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Wow, that's persuasive. Not. I find more of the same cherry-picking you've done before, along with a large helping of your interpretations of what the various witnesses meant. You assume the witnesses are absolutely correct when it suits your purposes, but dismiss their accounts when it doesn't.
For example: Mrs. Kennedy heard a 'noise'. Not a gunshot, and likened it to all the other noises she heard during the motorcade. Including motorcycle backfires. To you, that's somehow evidence of a gunshot. Not to me. John Connally heard only two gunshots, and was struck with one of them, with the other one, he testified, hitting JFK in the head. To you, that's evidence of two early shots (and supposedly, two or three or more later ones). In addition, as mentioned before, Connally was a victim of the gunfire and didn't even realize he was shot in the wrist or thigh until he was told so during his recovery process. You think his testimony is somehow solid evidence of an additional gunshot. It's not to me. Mrs. Baker heard a 'firecracker', and thought she saw sparks from it. To you, that's evidence of a gunshot. Not to me. A young child (six years old?) in 1963, Rosemary Willis claims something in the early 1990's that she isn't on record as saying at any time prior. You find her nearly three-decade later recollection credible (as you did with a federal agent - Frank Ellsworth - who recalled seeing a rifle on a different floor in the TSBD). We saw how well that went for you. You think her recollection of hearing a gunshot three decades after the fact is evidence of a gunshot. It's not to me. I'm sorry, your arguments here are not persuasive. Other witnesses gave contrary accounts. Clint Hill, Roy Kellerman, and Bill Greer all heard just one shot before the head shot. You ignore their testimony (or 'reinterpret' it to your liking), and that of the testimony of others, to somehow think you can claim evidence for at least four, and possibly five or more shots during the assassination. But to get to four or more, you must invoke shooters that left no evidence behind from where they shot, left no evidence behind of hitting their target at any time, and also used weapons firing bullets that weren't heard. I find that rationalization of the evidence beyond amazing. There's no evidence for four or five shots (more witnesses heard two shots than heard four or more) and there's no evidence for the additional shooters you conjecture. I'm sorry, but it's true. Hank |
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#83 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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I cited Connally's first hand statement, from his autobiography. Are you actually calling Mickey Herskowitz a liar?? This man's reputation is impeccable. He has written for numerous other celebrities, including an American president. From Wikipedia:
He has authored over 30 books, many of them jointly written autobiographies of famous Americans in politics, sports and media (including Gene Autry, Nolan Ryan, Paul “Bear” Bryant, George Allen, Tom Kite, John Connally and Prescott Bush), and others ghostwritten autobiographies of celebrities in similar fields (including Dan Rather, Mickey Mantle, Howard Cosell, Bette Davis, Shirley Jones, Marty Ingels and Gene Tierney). This man has NEVER been accused of lying or misrepresenting the people he wrote for, and he was citing Connally's first person statements. "..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket." Connally was corroborated by Dallas District attorney, Henry Wade. This is from his interview by the Dallas Morning news on 11/21/93. You can confirm that, via the Dallas Morning News website at http://www.dallasnews.com/ And you can read the entire interview here: http://jfkhistory.com/Wade.html I also went out to see (Gov. John) Connally, but he was in the operating room. Some nurse had a bullet in her hand, and said this was on the gurney that Connally was on. I talked with Nellie Connally a while and then went on home. Q: What did you do with the bullet? Is this the famous pristine bullet people have talked about? A: I told her to give it to the police, which she said she would. I assume that's the pristine bullet. Further corroboration came from officer Bobby Nolan, who was guarding Connally's room. This is from an interview I made of him, about three years ago. With his permission, the interview was recorded, and can be heard in this presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE Nolan: I was talking to a man who was one of governor Connally's aides. His name was - I think it was either Stinton or Stimmons (Bill Stinson). And he was an aide to the Governor. And she came up and told him that she had the bullet that came off of the gurney. Now I don't know what gurney. I think they meant Governor Connally's gurney. And she said, "What do you want me to do with it?" He and I were just sitting there in the hallway talking to me and said, "Give it to him" Q. Was it a bullet fragment or a complete bullet? Nolan: I don't know. It was a - they told me that is was a bullet. And I don't know if it was a fragment of a bullet or a whole bullet because it was in a little, small brown envelope. And it was sealed and it was about, I'd say 2 by 3 inches. And it was in that envelope when I got it and I never did look at it or anything." Q. Now when the nurse gave it to you, did she describe it as a bullet fragment or as a bullet. Nolan: Uh no. She just said it was a bullet. That's all.
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http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html
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The clincher to this, is one little word, "GURNEY". A nurse in scrubs, emerging from the surgery of a gunshot victim, carrying a bullet, is not supposed to have gotten it from a gurney. She is supposed to have acquired it from the surgery. It is the improbability of that term that makes it such a certainty. The FBI claimed that nursing supervisor Audrey Bell told them that she gave an envelope containing a single fragment to Nolan. If that were true, my case would go down the commode, but guess what? Yep, Bell was adamant that the FBI misrepresented her and that she never gave her envelope, which actually contained four tiny fragments, Nolan or any other uniformed cop. She gave it to plain clothed agents, AKA suits. Surprise, surprise! From the ARRB: When shown an FBI FD-302 dated November 23,1963 (Agency File Number 000919, Record# 180-l 0090-10270), she felt it was inaccurate in two respects: it quotes her as turning over “the metal fragment (singular),” whereas she is positive it was multiple fragments - it says she turned over the fragment to a Texas State Trooper, whereas she recalls turning it over to plainclothes Federal agents who were either FBI or Secret Service. Need any more sources, Hank? |
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#84 |
Philosopher
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#85 |
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#86 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oregon
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I've considered this idea before; "If I were planning this..."
My best scenario is to catch him at the apartment of one of his girlfriends after he has shaken the Secret Service. Burst in, shoot them both, leave a mystery. Is it a mob hit? Maybe a jealous boyfriend? Obsessed Marilyn Monroe fan? The great advantage is that family and friends of the deceased assist in the cover-up because of the embarrassing circumstances. |
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#87 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Give some psychosomatic drugs to the pilot of AF1... get him on record as visiting a psychologist who fails to realize he's a pilot, and talking of suicide. Then arrange to crash the plane. All you need to do then is control the investigation at the NTSB level. All that can be accomplished with fewer than ten people in the know and less than a half-million in 1963 dollars, I would estimate.
Or better yet, give the pilot one of those drugs that conspiracy theorists like to conjecture caused heart attacks in some of the dead witnesses. Or even better, give it to JFK. Heck, he was taking a ton of stuff from "Dr. Feelgood" (amphetamines and the like). A simple "accidental" overdose from the good doctor would do it (it worked for Michael Jackson). No patsy required. Or just release some damaging info about JFK's White House dalliances. It brought down some people in England earlier that year (in the Profumo affair). Not sure why a patsy is your requirement in the above, but since you stipulate one, none of my above suggestions are eligible and fit what you asked for. I do doubt an unlimited budget could accomplish everything that's argued for by conspiracy theorists. The absurdities argued in the name of a JFK conspiracy are beyond belief. For example, Body Alteration: for every autopsist who you approach, certainly 9 of 10 would NOT agree to be party to such a plan. Yet none of the other people who declined the opportunity to work as part of the team to alter the President's body ever came forward to claim they knew about it. So now you need a kill squad to bump off the 9 who were approached who declined, or you need some important info you can use to blackmail the nine who declined. But the kill squad costs money. And obtaining that info costs time and money. The same could be argued for every other argument advanced by the conspiracy theorist brigade. For everyone involved in swapping one item of evidence that didn't implicate Oswald for one piece that did, again, 9 of 10 people approached must have declined before the conspirators found one willing to do it. None of those approached to take part came forward, so they must have been silenced somehow. It adds up quickly, as does the Oswald doubles and the forgers who need to forge his signature on documents. And the experts who were needed to testify the way the conspirators wanted. And you need someone to kill the kill squad, the forgers, the experts and the doubles (both those who declined and those who accepted), or blackmail them all into silence, because they might talk about how the conspirators approached them and reveal the inner workings.... you can see how this can add up to real money very quickly. But conspiracy theorists argue -- as Bob Harris does here in this thread currently, but he is by no means alone -- that much of the hard evidence implicating Oswald is planted, merely because it conflicts with their theories and they can find one witness somewhere who once said something different, even if they had to wait 30 years or more for the counter-claim to surface. It apparently never occurs to them to re-assess their theory in light of the fact the hard evidence disproves it. Or if it does occur to them, they quickly dismiss it as not worthy of consideration. Bob Harris has argued that a second rifle was found on a different floor of the TSBD. But what happened to it, and why isn't it in the evidence record? He doesn't say. Someone on the inside must have been responsible for bringing it in, someone on the inside must have been responsible for bringing it out. And not being seen either time. How does one accomplish that feat? Who is the most likely candidate? Were others approached and declined? Why no statements from them? Why no evidence of this supposed other rifle, other than a recollection of hearsay from three decades after the fact from one man? Hank |
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#88 |
Thinker
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 186
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I must be very dense, as no one else has mentioned it, but I can't fathom the allusion to whales in the title of the new thread.
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#89 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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No you don't. If you did, you would have been specific about the witnesses I misinterpreted.
And how can I be "cherry picking" when there are no other witnesses who contradicted me?
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THAT is why we see no startle reactions to the early shots, even remotely similar to these: jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif or the ones following 313. That is why we see all the happy, smiling faces in the Altgens photo, taken at 255 after at least two (or whatever number you want to fabricate) shots have been fired. Look at Dave Powers, grinning ear to ear. http://jfkhistory.com/altgens.jpg The early shots could not possibly have come from an unsuppressed, high powered rifle - Oswald's or anyone else's. If they had, we would be seeing people screaming and diving to the ground, as well as Secret Service agents grabbing their guns and running for the limo, prior to 223. That is why none of the Secret Service agents did more than look around, prior to 285. NOTHING they heard prior to that, sounded like a real gunshot. And why do you ignore the fact that Mrs. Kennedy was fully corroborated by Phil Willis, who had her centered in the lens of his camera at the time? When I took slide No. 4, the President was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and Mrs. Kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. When the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction He reaffirmed that in this statement, In slide No. 4 he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. Then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him Another witness, who reacted similarly to Mrs. Connally, was SA George Hickey. He stated, After a very short distance I heard a loud report which sounded like a firecracker. It appeared to come from the right and rear and seemed to me to be at ground level. I stood up and looked to my right and rear in an attempt to identify it. I'm sure you know how to spot Hickey in the wide version of the Zapruder film. He is in the back seat of the followup car, behind the driver. Watch him closely. Notice that well before the limo emerges from behind the Stemmons sign, he has started to rise and turn to his right. By 255, when the Altgens photo was taken, he will be fully risen and turned to the rear. But this is when he began those movements - once again, well before 223. http://jfkhistory.com/hickey.gif And while you are studying Hickey, also notice John Ready, standing on the right running board, and turning to his right, prior to 223. This is from his original report, I was about 25-30 feet from President Kennedy who was located in the right rear seat. I heard what appeared to be fire crackers going off from my position. I immediately turned to my right rear trying to locate the source How many more witnesses will it take, Hank? [/quote]John Connally heard only two gunshots, and was struck with one of them, with the other one, he testified, hitting JFK in the head. [/quote] Yes, he HEARD only two gunshots. But they were in addition to the one that hit him. READ HIS TESTIMONY. Shot 1: We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot Shot 2: Obviously, at least the major wound that I took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. Shot 3: and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. Obviously, the second shot was silent. Mr. SPECTER.. Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot? Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not. Neither did anyone else. Now, if you want to accuse me of "cherry picking", here is your chance. John Connally was the only surviving passenger in the limo who heard no more than one shot at the end of the attack. In fact, it may be that he heard 285 but not 313, since he was getting very close to losing consciousness then. But there is no doubt that he heard the shot 150-160, which was prior to him being wounded, and the shot at 223, which he clearly reacted to, but which no one else heard either.
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![]() ![]() Connally heard the shot circa 160 BEFORE he was hit. There is no reason to doubt him at all, on that shot. And it is quite easy to see that he was hit at 223, as I think, we both agree, do we not?
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But then, they weren't aware of the little problem with only one of the early shots being audible.
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Have you noticed Hank, that you never produce evidence to support your attacks on all these witnesses. You attack them for the solitary reason that they disagree with you. Never mind, that even your fellow LN advocates don't agree with you either. You are judging witnesses based on whether they support your "theory", when what you should be doing is basing your theories on THEM. Conclusions should be drawn from evidence, not visa versa.
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And the absolute clincher here, is that whether you think there was one early shot or a dozen, NONE OF THEM were loud enough to provoke startle reactions like we see following 285 and 313. When were you planning to address that fact? The HSCA confirmed that Oswald's rifle generated 130 decibels at street level. That's 16 TIMES louder than 90db, the point at which involuntary startle reactions will occur. Other high powered rifles are even louder. If Oswald had fired all the shots, the earliest would have been the loudest and most startling to the ears of the limo passengers. Where do we see people simultaneously ducking, spinning around, shielding their ears, etc? Why don't we see reactions like these, any time prior to 285? http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif You need to address this issue, Hank. It is incredibly important. We're talking about involuntary reactions. If the 223 shot came from an unsuppressed, high powered rifle, we would have seen the same kind of reactions we see, following the shots at the end. Why don't we see that? |
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#90 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,218
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Yes, the Deslile Carbine, a Lee Enfield No.4 modified to take a .45 ACP cartridge and made with an integral suppressor. Very popular with SOE and OSS during WWII. It was a very effective weapon - out to about 50 metres. After that range, the subsonic ammunitiion was of lower lethality and accuracy due to the rather substantial bullet drop.
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Second, where is the physical evidence that would support the use of such a weapon? Casings, bullet strikes, etc. Without such evidence all you have is speculation. |
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#91 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 252
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Does it have to be shooting him in public?
An overdose of barbituates in the private quarters would do the trick nicely. Pay off some people and voila. If I was in charge of ensuring a public death, Main Street with throngs of people and many buildings to target, not TSBD or the knoll. |
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#92 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,406
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There are only three proven shots. Two hit the passengers, one hit the traffic gantry.
Robert: Being able to show us that you think what witnesses saw or heard is compatible with any other shot, rather than assuming the Z film shows 'startle reactions', why not show us the physical evidence for other bullets being fired. Show us the bullets, or their impact on physical evidence, then you can discuss as and when they may have been fired. If you can not show us that the bullets made any mark on the world, then no matter how convinced you happen to be, it can not be stated with any confidence that anybody reacted to bullets over any other noise in the chaotic situation. Please stop trying to dress speculation as fact. |
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#93 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
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#94 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,632
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Yes he did and yes he has. Multiple times. You've ignored the rebuttals which point out the fatal flaws to your arguments every time.
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Tell us more about the other rifle found in the TSBD on a different floor. What happened to it? Which shots were fired from it? How many spent casings were found on the other floor belonging to that rifle? Who fired it? Was it also suppressed? At which frames of the Z film do you see evidence of shots from that rifle? There would be some distinctive flinches, right? Also, share what you know about the shooter in the storm drain. At which frames do you see evidence of shots from there? More flinches which you would be able to tell just from looking that it was from shots from the storm drain, right? |
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#95 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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You couldn't possibly be more wrong.
The fact that Connally, Wade and Nolan, ALL talked about the bullet coming from a "gurney", is the clincher. It is so unintuitive, that it couldn't have been a mistake or a misunderstanding. The bullet that Connally described, was indeed, the one that wounded him and probably JFK. It couldn't possibly have been the same one that Tomlinson found. Nor could the bullet that Tomlinson found have been CE399, which is why all four of the men who handled it prior to it going to the FBI, refused to confirm it, and why neither of the initials of the two men who marked the Tomlinson bullet can be found on CE399. READ THE ARTICLE. http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html |
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#96 |
Muse
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#97 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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That is untrue. We can be certain that at least four were fired, at 150-160, 223, 285 and 313. There may have been others.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE
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There is however, rock solid, hard evidence that the bullet which hit JFK and Connally was not fired from Oswald's rifle. That includes the hard evidence that CE399 was not the bullet that was found by Daryl Tomlinson and was not the bullet that wounded John Connally. You can read about it in this article as well as in my recent discussion with Hank. http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html Don't you think you should also be concerned about the scientific evidence, produced by two of the top scientists in the U.S, who found that there was a loud and startling noise which took place at precisely the instant the limo passengers as well as Abraham Zapruder, reacted? Why aren't you asking me about the empirical evidence of three people simultaneously ducking, while two others spun away from the probable source of that shot, all in the same 1/6th of one second? Don't you want to know why that happened? http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif
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However, there was a lead smear discovered on the Main St. curbing, which was believed to have been from the bullet that caused debris to fly into the face of James Tague, nicking his cheek and causing a trickle of blood. That bullet was almost certainly, the one fired at 285, which was the second audible shot, as Tague himself, stated. Likewise, Bill Greer felt the "concussion" from the shock wave of what he described as the "second shot". That is precisely what he should have felt from the passing, supersonic bullet. The shot missed JFK and went on to shatter on the pavement, breaking apart and sending a chunk of lead to strike the Main St. curbing and a tiny piece of debris to nick Tague. The "hard evidence" alone, is enough to prove that Oswald was not the only shooter. The scientific and empirical evidence makes that a certainty beyond any possible doubt. |
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#98 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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That is untrue.
The proof that at least one suppressed weapon was used, is that almost no one heard more than one of the early shots. Even John Connally never heard the shot at 223, that hit him. If you have a better explanation for why that happened, I would be delighted to hear it. Oswald's rifle was proven to generate 130 decibels at street level. That's 16 times louder than the level at which involuntary startle reactions will occur. We see clear startle reactions following 285 and 313, but nothing even remotely similar, prior to 285. http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif The one early shot that was heard - circa 150-160, also never provoked startle reactions and might have only been heard because it struck the pavement, shattering and causing "sparks" to rise up. The 223 shot only passed through human tissue, so remained totally silent. |
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#99 |
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#100 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
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I said no such thing, and it's getting a bit tiring, hearing you misrepresent me.
CE399 couldn't possibly have been planted. If it had, the men who originally handled it, would have had no problem confirming it, and the initials of SA Johnsen and FBI agent Todd, would have been on it. CE399 was very obviously, not the bullet that Tomlinson found. When the FBI discovered that the original was not fired by Oswald, they undoubtedly fired a round from Oswald's rifle into water or wadding and then presented it to the WC. In addition to the unanimous refusal of those four men to confirm CE399 and the absence of the markings of Johnsen and Todd, it is obvious that they discovered Tomlinson's bullet did not match with fragments they received just before midnight on 11/22/63. Why else would they have needed to call Tomlinson in the wee hours of 11/23 to tell him to keep his mouth shut about the bullet he found? This is from the recorded 1967 interview of Tomlinson by Ray Marcus. The interview is also documented in the HSCA records. Tomlinson: On Friday morning about 12:30 to 1 o'clock - uh, excuse me, that's Saturday morning - after the assassination, the FBI woke me up on the phone and told me to to keep my mouth shut. Marcus: About the circumstances of your finding the bullet? Tomlinson: That is (one short word, unintelligible) what I found… Marcus: I understand exactly what you mean, when they call you, it's pretty authoritative. But the thing is this, did they say - was there any particular thing about what they said or they just didn't want you to talk about it period? Tomlinson: Just don't talk about it period.
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You pointed out that people from the DPD contradicted him, but they were subordinate to the FBI, whose stated agenda, directly from Hoover, was that the public must be convinced that Oswald acted alone. The FBI had already carried out that agenda when they covered up deception by Jack Ruby, when he denied during his polygraph test, being associated with Oswald and the conspiracy. They also fabricated evidence, replacing the actual bullets found at Parkland, with one they produced themselves. Therefore, any testimony coming from the FBI or DPD, must be taken with a rather large grain of salt. But NO, that bullet was very obviously, NOT planted.
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#101 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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No he hasn't, and you will prove that by failing to cite even a single example of me misrepresenting anyone.
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Why is that, Robo?
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Why are you only asking about things that cannot be resolved? Let's talk about what is provable - like that fact that only one of the early shots was audible. And the fact that the country's top physicists discovered a loud and startling noise at precisely, frame 285. And the fact that "most" of the witnesses that day, heard closely bunched shots at the end, which matched perfectly with shots 1.5 seconds apart. And the fact that Zapruder reacted at EXACTLY the same instant that the limo passengers did. Once we agree that Oswald couldn't have fired all the shots, then we can talk about other issues that are speculative or uncertain. |
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#102 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,406
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My statement was perfectly true. We only have evidence for three bullets. Your speculation of what may or may not be a bullet on the Z film is not evidence of a suitable quality to convince. Nor to state as fact.
Erm, the final destination is not the key. We have evidence of three bullets being fired. Not from the z film, but from bullet casings. Of the probable impact points, the gantry is the most likely: hannel.nationalgeographic.com/explorer/galleries/explorer-jfk-the-lost-bullet-pictures/at/triple-underpass-39917/ http://www.washingtondecoded.com/sit...onds-in-d.html But I don't care what you think you see or don't see in the Z film. There were three spent shell casings. Ergo we have evidence of three shots. Two of which hit victims. Firstly, that is not why I asked for the evidence. Secondly, I have not been specific. I will accept any physical evidence of more bullets being fired. Signs of the bullets themselves, casings left, a hole left by their impact. I have left a wide open goal. Secondly: We are not in a courtroom. We are discussing a historical event. I am asking for evidence suitable for establishing a historical narrative. Let me be absolutely clear: Before I ask if any frames is best explained by being reactions to multiple shooters, I will need viable physical evidence of additional shooters. Please stop counting your chicken before the eggs have been laid. No. That is like asking for evidence that the globe is warming to support the theory of global warming. You could offer me evidence the ice caps are retracting, that mean temperatures from set locations are on an increasing trend, or any number of viable sources. What you are doing however is akin to proving global warming by suggesting people look too warm in holiday snaps. This is your opinion. That all three bullets recovered were from Oswalds rifle, and Oswalds rifle alone leads me to another opinion. Mr Seizant has made a far more convincing case, in no small part because of his eloquence, but more importantly, because he displays a far more realistic view of how evidence is gathered, analysed, and meaningfully presented. I recommend that even if you disagree with his views, you at least consider the difference between his methodology and his own, and contemplate why people keep telling you they are not convinced by you. Yes. It is considered in the totality of evidence. As there remains no physical evidence of any more bullets, and as neither 'loud' nor 'startling' is a synonym for gunshot, I remain unconvinced your explanation is the only explanation. Or even a viable explanation. There were other noises in Dallas that day. Screams, sirens, engine noise, and others, that could be loud, or startling. And we have evidence there were people who could scream, engines that could have made noise, sirens that could have wailed, and so forth. What we are lacking is evidence for other rifles, and other gunshots. Because your interpretation of those actions is not empirical evidence. It is your opinion that those movements are a reaction to a noise, your opinion that it is a gunshot, your opinion that they were aware of the source. Again. If those are reactions to a noise, that does not follow that it can only be a gunshot. Find evidence of the gunshot, and I will consider it an explanation for those movements. Until then, I am afraid those could just be people reacting in confusion and panic, and your interpretation offers no insight above and beyond that of anybody else. You see people turning away from a noise. Perhaps they were turning towards something. Perhaps they were ducking, because somebody told them to duck. We need evidence, or all you have is speculation. [quote=Robert Harris;10852989] There are no verifiable bullets that have ever been entered into evidence. CE399 was obviously, not fired during the assassination. [quote] There were two. One fractured within JFK. And CE399 obtained from the gurney. This is the evidence I accept. You have yet to support your claim with the minimum standard of evidence required to change my mind. Or it was fragment of the bullet that caused the explosive head wound. There is no certainty. But the mark on the pavement and the minor wound remain consistent with the three shots known to be fired. Oswalds is the only rifle we have evidence for having fired that day. Oswald firing alone is the theory that best fits the totality of physical evidence. Nothing you have supplied in any post or presentation changes that. |
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#103 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,632
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Patently untrue. Nobody has ever made a case for any shots other than those fired by Oswald. There have been claims of other shots but those claims were found to be without merit and based only on someone's opinion and inference. No evidence of other shots, shooters or weapons has ever been presented.
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For example, you've presented us with your opinions and inferences, creating an entire back story for what you infer is a flinch in response to some specific sound you've inferred from a silent video. Did you have anything else at all? |
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#104 |
Hostile Nanobacon
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Perfection, NV
Posts: 28,632
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Which of Oswald's three shots are you referring to as "early"?
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#105 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Wow. That's the best example of one sentence invoking the logical fallacy of a circular argument I've ever seen.
You're actually invoking as evidence that an extra shot was fired early from a suppressed weapon the lack of evidence that anyone heard it??? Sorry, that's not close to persuasive. You might as well conjecture a pink unicorn assassin in the Dal-Tex building, using the same logic. Nobody saw one of those either. So the proof that at least one pink unicorn was in the Dal-Tex building firing away at the President is that no one saw it. You do understand that the stated pink unicorn "logic" and your argument for the early suppressed shot follow the exact same form, I trust. I also trust you see the issue with the pink unicorn argument. It is surprising to me you don't see the issue with your own argument above. Hank |
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#106 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Because she isn't corroborated by Willis. Willis said the first shot was almost simultaneous with his slide #5. This image:
http://www.history-matters.com/archi...ol21_0397b.htm He says that here in his description of that slide: http://www.history-matters.com/archi...ol21_0395a.htm "... THIS SLIDE WAS TAKEN AT THE EXACT INSTANT THE FIRST BULLET STRUCK THE PRESIDENT..." What frame of the Zapruder film does that correspond to, Robert? Zapruder frame 202. That's closer to Z223 (by 1.1 second), than to Z150-Z160 (2.3 to 2.8 seconds). http://www.history-matters.com/archi...Vol7_0252a.htm It's also when you believe the first shot struck the President, is it not (Zapruder frame 223)? Now, you can insist Willis missed the first shot by about three seconds, being three seconds late when he claimed it was simultaneous, or you can understand that some of us understand that memory is a recreation, not a recording of the event. And that Willis, more than likely, heard the first shot just AFTER he took his slide #5, and simply inflated his (and its) importance by later remembering he heard the first shot just AS he took his slide #5. (His slide #5, incidentally, is the same as Hudson Exhibit #1, which he references in his testimony as almost simultaneous with the first shot). Here's Hudson Exhibit #1: http://www.history-matters.com/archi...ol20_0102a.htm This is what I mean by being selective and cherry picking. You ignore the evidence contrary to your view, and you emphasize the evidence that supports your contentions. You pretend Willis is a great witness, but according to your own arguments, he thought the first shot was almost simultaneous with his slide #5, but it was actually 2.3 to 2.8 seconds later, and NOT "almost simultaneous". So which is it? Is Willis an excellent witness, an average one, or a poor one? He's excellent when you want him to be. And rather poor otherwise (2.3 to 2.8 seconds later for that "almost simultaneous" shot). Hank Hank |
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#107 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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Could you please be specific about what exactly, I am not doing correctly?
It is significant that Wade and Nolan were both told by the nurse that she had a whole bullet from Connally's "gurney". Consider Connally's description of the event: ..the most curious discovery of all took place when they rolled me off the stretcher, and onto the examining table. A metal object fell to the floor, with a click no louder than a wedding band. The nurse picked it up and slipped it into her pocket. Of course, the bullet actually came from his thigh, but it had to have first landed on the gurney before falling to the floor. The nurse obviously, saw it fall from that gurney, which is why she told Nolan and Wade that it came from there. And the fact that the "gurney" is such a non-intuitive place for it to have come from, makes it a certainty that this was not just a misunderstanding. In fact, Connally aide, Bill Stinson, who Nolan mentioned, was busy taking care of Connally's administrative chores, and obviously wasn't paying close attention to the nurse and made the mistake of thinking the bullet came from the surgery that had just been completed. This is from his interview with Ramparts magazine, The last thing they did, was to remove the bullet from the governor's thigh---because that was the least thing that was wrong with him. Of course, Stinson was wrong; the doctors stated that they found no bullet in Connally's thigh. His mistake was in mentally substituting the more intuitive explanation for the bullet - an error the others did not make. |
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#108 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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So, in your theory, as I understand it, there are FOUR "magic" bullets, not one.
Magic Bullet, the First: This would be the one that Tomlinson found in a hospital corridor, near a stretch that had once been occupied by the Governor when he was first brought into Parkland Hospital. According to your argument, as I understand it, this bullet was more pointed that CE399, and was not CE399. It somehow vanished, according to you, from the evidence trail. Magic Bullet, the Second: This would be the one that Governor Connally supposedly saw fall onto his hospital stretcher. That was then mentioned by Wade, and Nolan. It too somehow vanished, according to you, from the evidence trail. Magic Bullet, the Third: This would be the one in the record, Commission Exhibit 399. This one: http://www.history-matters.com/archi...ol17_0038a.htm (bottom of page). The one that is traceable to Oswald's weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. According to your theory, this bullet had nothing to do with the assassination of the President, and somehow appeared in the evidence trail in lieu of one of the above bullets (presumably, "Magic Bullet, the First"). Magic Bullet, the Fourth: This would be the one that must have shattered and left the multiple fragments contained within an envelope that nurse Audrey Bell said she gave to a man in a suit. Another example of you simply ignoring or arguing away evidence you don't like, and conjecturing up theories to support your argument that Oswald didn't fire the shot that wounded both the President and the Governor. You throw away the hard evidence that links Oswald to the assassination (CE399), and then, based on recollections from 3, 15, 35, or 49 years after the assassination, imagine there must been other bullets in the evidence trail instead. Sometimes I wonder if you even know what you're arguing for. In a preceding post, you cited Bell's recollection of multiple fragments within an envelope as if it confirmed Officer Nolan's recollection of a bullet in an envelope. Her recollection doesn't confirm his, her recollection contradicts his, and shows you (or should show you but doesn't) the issue with relying on recollections from decades after the fact. You ignore the contradictions between the recollections and blithely cite both recollections. Hank |
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#109 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 7,852
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#110 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 8,406
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#111 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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#112 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Actually, John Connally confirmed no such thing. I've challenged you previously to post his testimony to that end and you punted each time, ignoring the challenge. The only thing you have is a hearsay statement *purportedly from Connally* that was published in a book.
It's not evidence when it was published, it was not evidence when you read it, it was not evidence when you cited it, and it never will be evidence. It will always be hearsay. You have no evidence. You have hearsay. Argumentum ad innuendo. You present no evidence that is the case, you simply allege it and expect us to accept the allegation as true. http://www.fallacydetective.com/news...tic-ad-hominem == QUOTE ==Innuendo is actually not a true logical fallacy, but more of a propaganda and manipulation technique. It tries to psychologically manipulate your opinions. "Innuendo" is used when indirect hints are dropped that something suspicious is afoot. Nothing is said out in the open, for fear they would actually have to back it up. == UNQUOTE == You can't back it up, so you merely suggest it's possible. Beyond that, you're accusing (or "innuendoing") the wrong group in any case. Secret Service agents found the fragments, not the FBI, and the Secret Service delivered it directly to FBI Agent Orrin Bartlett, who delivered it to FBI Agent Robert Frazier, according to his testimony (the two fragments in question are CE567 and CE569). Frazier did the examination, and he determined those fragments came from Oswald's rifle, to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world. http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm == QUOTE == Mr. SPECTER - Now, where, according to information provided to you then, was the fragment designated Commission Exhibit 567 found? Mr. FRAZIER - That was found by the Secret Service upon their examination of the limousine here in Washington when it first arrived from Dallas, and Commission No. 567 was delivered by Deputy Chief Paul Paterni and by a White House detail chief, Floyd M. Boring, to a liaison agent of the FBI, Orrin Bartlett, who delivered them to me in the laboratory at 11:50 p,m., on November 22, 1963. ... Mr. SPECTER - Would you state what the chain of possession was from the time of discovery of Exhibit 569 until the time it came into your possession, based on the records of the FBI, please, if you have those records available? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. It was delivered by Secret Service Deputy Chief Paul Paterni, and SAC of the White House detail Floyd M. Boring of the Secret Service again, to Special Agent Orrin Bartlett of the FBI who delivered it to me at 11:50 p.m. on November 22, 1963. == UNQUOTE == So let's be clear: When you accuse the FBI via innuendo of monkeying with the evidence and substituting two illegitimate fragments for the actual ones, you're actually accusing either Orrin Bartlett or Robert Frazier, or both, of very serious crimes. You have any evidence of that? Of course not. You're content to merely besmirch their reputations to advance your agenda. Again, you have no evidence. You have innuendo. We can do this for most every one of your claims. Hank |
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#113 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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Willis #5 was taken at the equivalent of frame 202, more than a second prior to 223. Sorry Hank - still no cigar.
Furthermore, it is easy to see that the shot was earlier than 202, because the Zapruder film proves that Jackie had already turned completely to her right and toward her husband by then. http://jfkhistory.com/z202.png His repeated statement that Jackie was turned to her left when that shot was fired, combined with her own statement that she was turned to the left, far outweighs his subjective opinion about slide #5, and it might be worth considering that that slide was worth a LOT more money if it was believed to have been simultaneous with the first shot. But this is a moot question anyway, since frame 202, was well before the shot at 223.
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Willis claimed that the shot was fired at the same instant that he released the shutter, but that was untrue. As he correctly stated, he saw Jackie turned to her left when the first shot was fired and then saw her turn toward her husband, as he also stated (twice). It was after she turned, that he snapped slide #5.
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As I stated previously, the Zapruder film provides us with the ability to conclusively prove or disprove important witness statements. It proved that Nellie was correct and it proved that Phil Willis wasn't. Read his testimony. He goes on and on and on, trying to argue that #5 was simultaneous with the first shot. If that had been true, his photo would have been far more famous and valuable than it was.
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The Zapruder film is an incredibly important filter for numerous witness statements. It not only tests for whether various events actually took place, but for WHEN they took place, which is often much more important.
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I'm disappointed that you haven't figured that out by now. It's not just a fluke that I consistently present evidence to prove my assertions.
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I evaluate what witnesses say and try to test their statements. If they can be verified, then they become "great" sentences:-)
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Not only did they say that, but we can confirm in the Zapruder film that they did exactly what they claimed. And we can confirm that each of them did that prior to the shot at 223. And speaking of people who claimed that they turned from their left to their right in reaction to the first shot, another fellow said exactly that. His name was John Connally. Remember him? He stated that he heard the first shot and was hit by the second, but never heard the second shot. He also stated this: We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right Gosh, let's see if he was telling the truth. What do you think, Hank? http://jfkhistory.com/jbcturns.gif That's FOUR witnesses who said they were looking to their left and turned in reaction to the first shot. And EVERY ONE OF THEM can be easily corroborated in the Zapruder film. Are you actually going to continue with this "theory" that there were a total of two shots?? "The driver did it", might be easier to defend. At least you would have an optical illusion to work with ![]() |
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#114 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Still waiting for Robert Harris to find the time to cite the evidence for his claims concerning Jim Braden. I've only been asking for two months and one day now.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2097 Hank |
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#115 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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Evidence for what?
There is no evidence confirming that any of the shell casings found on the 6th floor were fired that day. You can't even prove that Oswald's rifle was fired then.
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How do you explain the fact that "most" witnesses, according to the WC, heard two closely bunched shots at the end of the attack? That includes all of the nonvictims in the limousine. How do you explain the loud and startling noise at frame 285, which provoked three people to duck, while two others spun around and away from the probable source of that shot, at enormous speed? I don't believe there are any plausible, alternative explanations; do you? And how do you explain the absence of similar reactions to the early shots? Why don't we see people simultaneously ducking, spinning around, shielding their ears etc? You will find NO Secret Service agents acting, no witnesses screaming, diving to the ground or anything else that is consistent with reactions to 130 decibel, high powered rifle shots until AFTER frame 285. How do you explain that? How do you explain all the happy, smiling faces in the Altgens photo, after at least two, high powered rifle shots had supposedly been fired?? And how do you explain why most of the witnesses only heard one of the early shots? It is ludicrous to think that the early shots came from a high powered rifle - Oswald's or anyone else's.
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But Holland is not a competent researcher. His theory has been refuted, even by nutters like Gary Mack and Dale Myers. Myers, one of the more radical of the LN advocates, reviewed that documentary in considerable detail at his blog. http://jfkfiles.blogspot.com/2012/01...lland-and.html Holland's greatest achievement in his documentary, was to con (or bribe) Amos Euins to totally reverse his Warren Commission testimony in which he said he heard four shots and reported seeing an older, balding man with a rifle. He originally, told a reporter that he thought the sniper was a black man. But after Max got through with him, he was an absolutely perfect, PC, three shot witness who was sure he saw Oswald in that window. To put it another way, Holland is not just incompetent; he is thoroughly lacking in integrity. And you will find many LNers who feel the same way I do about that.
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Why don't you just address the evidence and arguments I presented? You can start with this one from my previous post, which you have not addressed: There is however, rock solid, hard evidence that the bullet which hit JFK and Connally was not fired from Oswald's rifle. That includes the hard evidence that CE399 was not the bullet that was found by Daryl Tomlinson and was not the bullet that wounded John Connally. You can read about it in this article as well as in my recent discussion with Hank. http://jfkhistory.com/bell/bellarticle/BellArticle.html Don't you think you should also be concerned about the scientific evidence, produced by two of the top scientists in the U.S, who found that there was a loud and startling noise which took place at precisely the instant the limo passengers as well as Abraham Zapruder, reacted? Why aren't you asking me about the empirical evidence of three people simultaneously ducking, while two others spun away from the probable source of that shot, all in the same 1/6th of one second? Don't you want to know why that happened? http://jfkhistory.com/ducking.gif There are no verifiable bullets that have ever been entered into evidence. CE399 was obviously, not fired during the assassination. However, there was a lead smear discovered on the Main St. curbing, which was believed to have been from the bullet that caused debris to fly into the face of James Tague, nicking his cheek and causing a trickle of blood. That bullet was almost certainly, the one fired at 285, which was the second audible shot, as Tague himself, stated. Likewise, Bill Greer felt the "concussion" from the shock wave of what he described as the "second shot". That is precisely what he should have felt from the passing, supersonic bullet. The shot missed JFK and went on to shatter on the pavement, breaking apart and sending a chunk of lead to strike the Main St. curbing and a tiny piece of debris to nick Tague. The "hard evidence" alone, is enough to prove that Oswald was not the only shooter. The scientific and empirical evidence makes that a certainty beyond any possible doubt. |
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#116 |
Muse
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 867
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#117 |
Muse
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#118 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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Wait, what?
You're now conjecturing that the witnesses confused a strike on the pavement as a rifle shot at about frames Z150 - Z160, but when I pointed out multiple witnesses who suggested that very thing about the shot on JFK's skull (that the bullet impact on something hard caused a sound that could have been confused by some witnesses as a rifle shot) you dismissed it out of hand. BUT NOW THAT'S YOUR EXPLANATION FOR THE SUPPOSED SHOT AT Z150-Z160! That the witnesses heard the impact of the bullet on the pavement, and the impact sound was confused by the witnesses as the sound of the first shot. Please advise why the eyewitness testimony is not more believable than your conjectures. Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire? Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. Governor CONNALLY. ... and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise,just that audible, very clear. Mr. HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that that is what caused it. Mr. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot? Mr. HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir, And even Roy Kellerman described the final two shots as both instantaneous and a flurry: Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together. Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard? Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. ... Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first? Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it. Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it? Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir. All of them put the final two sounds as very close together. Two of the four likened it to a bullet hitting something hard and a third was clear in his testimony that he heard both the sound of the muzzle blast and the sound of the impact. Some of them even suggested the something hard was the skull. You simply dismissed all that, never even trying to consider how it explains very well the final two sounds many of the witnesses heard, and why many of the closest people to the limousine with experience with firearms said there were only two shots. Oh yeah, and some of these very same witnesses estimated the total time span of the shooting as five seconds (or less), which aligns very well with the two known shots at Z223 and Z313 (90 frames, which at 18.3 frames per second, works out to 4.9 seconds between those two shots. Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry? Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that. Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described? Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds. Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise? Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three or four seconds. Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise? Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say. So some of the closest witnesses heard ONLY two shots, and some of the same witnesses estimated the shooting as taking only five seconds. Yet somehow you insist they didn't hear the known shots at Z223 and Z313., but rather, there were three audible shots at Z150-Z160, Z285 and Z313. Those three shots work out to 8.4 to 8.9 seconds. With the conjectured fifth shot you suggested was possible in the Z335 range, we're up to ten seconds for the total time span of the shots. So you're arguing for four or five shots in 8 to 10 seconds, despite the closest witnesses to the limo disagreeing -- hearing half as many shots in half as much time. Your arguments simply ignore any and all contrary evidence. As I've pointed out previously. Hank |
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#119 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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So now we're up to at LEAST SIX SHOTS!
According to Robert Harris' own words. One at Z150-160 One at Z223 One at Z285 One at Z313 and at least two more after Z313 ("the ones [plural] after 313"). And yet many of the closest witnesses heard only two, and the vast majority (about 90%) said three. So we're up to how many assassins from how many locations, firing those six or more shots in total? Hank |
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#120 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,824
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I remind you that approximately 90% of the witnesses heard three shots. Your claim that "Neither did anyone else" hear a second shot (between the first & third) is patently untrue. Most witnesses claimed to hear three shots.
Obviously, there are other possibilities than the one above you allow. Like the Governor, under the duress of the shooting, didn't hear the shot that struck him because his nervous system was overwhelmed at the time by the stress of a bullet penetrating his trunk, going through his wrist and into his thigh. Another possibility you haven't eliminated is that the Governor simply mis-remembered after the fact, and was struck by the first of two shots he heard, and the President was struck in the head by the second of two shots he heard. Do explain in detail what methodology you used to eliminate those two possibilities. Was it as simple as choosing the one you liked best and ignoring all the others? Obviously, that's one answer. N Except he connected the sound of the second shot he heard with the impact on the head, and on the resulting spray of brain matter that swamped the car. CONNALLY: ... the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else. So he was awake and clear enough to hear the Z313 impact. But didn't hear any shot at Z285 whatsoever. Your argument for Connally hearing Z285 is therefore shot down. In flames. You quote his language very carefully when it agrees with your theory but ignore it entirely when it conflicts with your theory. That's the very definition of cherry-picking, I would think. Hank |
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"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto." |
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