ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags HSCA , JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

Closed Thread
Old 19th March 2017, 03:06 PM   #2641
traxy
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think that's all subject to Rorschach test stuff, I don't know of any photographs of the windshield at that time that are really clear and up close.
The Parkland photo is close enough to determine that there is no hole, at least in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

http://s308.photobucket.com/user/Jos...se-up.jpg.html

This is the problem with pretty much every conspiracy theory related to this case. The physical evidence just doesn't support it. The damage in Altgens 7 matches the damage in the Parkland photo, which matches the damage in the windshield in the archives.
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 03:10 PM   #2642
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I think that's all subject to Rorschach test stuff, I don't know of any photographs of the windshield at that time that are really clear and up close.
So the existing photo in the archives shows no bullet hole, and no other photos are clear enough to determine there is a through-and-through bullet hole, do I understand you correctly?

So no actual evidence of a through-and-through bullet hole?

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:05 PM   #2643
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Not that you need any help, but you are, of course, absolutely correct. The phenomenon that causes the bullet to sound as if it's coming from the opposite or another direction is the supersonic shock wave creating a loud noise or zing on it's path as it goes supersonic. No suppressor required. A suppressor could reduce the muzzle blast sound so that from a distance the only sound heard might be the supersonic "crack".

Heck, even an air rifle pellet will do this if the speed of the pellet is > ~ 1000 fps at standard sea level temperature.

That's why soldiers are taught to listen for the "thump" sound of the rifle as opposed to the later supersonic shock wave sound in order to determine the location of the firearm. The sound of the firearm (it's doesn't have to be a rifle) occurs first.

There is a lengthy discussion of this in the Suppressor Thread in Politics.
That's exactly what I meant, just couldn't articulate it very well. However, it would appear that some suppressors can distort the sound of the muzzle blast itself. See here: https://archive.org/stream/Modern_Fi...ge/n9/mode/2up
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:08 PM   #2644
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
So the existing photo in the archives shows no bullet hole, and no other photos are clear enough to determine there is a through-and-through bullet hole, do I understand you correctly?

So no actual evidence of a through-and-through bullet hole?

Hank
The windshield thing is a comparatively superficial to what I was talking about before.

Can you respond to this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2532

Last edited by MicahJava; 19th March 2017 at 10:10 PM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:19 PM   #2645
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
I'm going to try to summarize where I am at this point. There are only a few things I'll say about Dealey Plaza. At this point I realized after reading a bunch of material that my disbelief of the timing of shots was likely based on the spacing as opposed the overall timing from start to finish, but even that is debatable. The latest I've been reading is Josiah Thomson's piece Six Seconds in Dallas. He goes into excruciating detail on most issues complete with charts of timing and distance. I like his detail. I don't want to worry about his theory at this point, but the whole book appears to be pretty factual, based on what I know now. He reaches a CT conclusion, but it appears to me he's just following the evidence as he analyzes it.

Several witnesses saw either someone or more than two people in the TSBD window with a rifle prior to the motorcade's arrival. I appalled they didn't immediate say something to get the thing stopped. What the hell were they thinking? Was their timeline reversed due to trauma? I guess that's a good excuse. I'll leave Dealey Plaza for now...

This whole affair was very poorly handled in the aftermath either due to incompetence or perhaps the intention to cover up something. After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington. Who motivated that? If the autopsy had been done in Dallas by competent forensic pathologists they would have known about the throat wound and we might not have much of the controversy that exists today. I know the pathologists at Bethesda did not have a lot of time, but what was the rush? Why did they not plan on getting competent forensic pathologists to do the autopsy instead of two desk jockeys who didn't have a clue about a legal forensic based autopsy. Surely everyone knew this would be the autopsy of the Century up to that point. They committed some crucial errors and/or omissions leading to the probability that the whole truth won't ever be known. Was that all just incompetence and a rush to get it done or were there other motivations.

Why in the heck didn't the Limo undergo forensic examination. What was the rush to get it refurbished. There's a lot of discrepancies regarding it to make any reasonable person suspicious of the motive.

Then we have the Warren Commission. It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it). It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now. Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.

For me this is not at all similar to the other typical Conspiracy Theory subjects. There are many valid reasons to be suspicious about this one. Most of the others are just delusions by idiots. There are many idiots theorizing about this one too and it's hilarious. Provides a laugh a minute.

I'm open to other suggestions for additional reading of the non-CT oriented variety. It's difficult to dig thru them there are so many that are pure CT. Right now, I'm not in the US, so all I have access to is Internet based stuff at this point.
__________________
[Noc]

Last edited by Reheat; 19th March 2017 at 10:23 PM.
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:32 PM   #2646
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That's exactly what I meant, just couldn't articulate it very well. However, it would appear that some suppressors can distort the sound of the muzzle blast itself. See here: https://archive.org/stream/Modern_Fi...ge/n9/mode/2up
Your link is just standard suppressor stuff. Nothing at all special about it. Some are more efficient than others.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 04:01 AM   #2647
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post

Several witnesses saw either someone or more than two people in the TSBD window with a rifle prior to the motorcade's arrival. I appalled they didn't immediate say something to get the thing stopped. What the hell were they thinking? Was their timeline reversed due to trauma? I guess that's a good excuse. I'll leave Dealey Plaza for now...
They thought it was a Secret Service man.

Quote:
This whole affair was very poorly handled in the aftermath either due to incompetence or perhaps the intention to cover up something. After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington. Who motivated that?
Jackie Kennedy. Her children were in Washington, and their father was dead. She wanted to get there, but she wasn't going without Jack's body. Johnson wanted to get there because he was now President of the United States, and didn't know how to handle it, but he wasn't going without Jackie.

Meanwhile, the whole area of law was something they were unfamiliar with. It turns out that shooting the President was not, at the time, a federal crime. It really didn't occur to all those powerful people, including the new president, that they didn't actually have jurisdiction over what was happening.

I always find it interesting that the one person who is never, ever, held in suspicion of being part of the conspiracy is Jackie Kennedy. Her husband was a notorious philanderer. She stood to inherit millions on his death. She had complete insider knowledge, but she is never, ever, accused of conspiring to kill her husband. Usually, the spouse is the first suspect in an unsolved murder, but not in this case. Oh, and for anyone who favors the Body Snatcher conspiracy form, the military officer in charge of guarding the body was Jackie Kennedy's ex boyfriend.

But, if you want to say that getting Jack's body out of Dallas was part of the conspiracy, Jackie Kennedy was right at the center of that decision. Also, there's a whole new bunch of checks that your accountant has to write.


For additional reading, I recommend "Death of a President" by William Manchester.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 04:31 AM   #2648
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Then we have the Warren Commission. It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it). It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now. Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.
They didn't need the magic bullet in order to save the long gunman theory.

If they had the power to forge evidence, they could have easily added a bullet and a bullet hole to the limo, and said that the first shot hit Kennedy and lodged in the back seat. The second shot hit Connally and the third hit Kennedy. Lone gunman. No magic bullet. Problem solved.

They needed the magic bullet theory in order to explain the evidence.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 04:38 AM   #2649
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But, if you want to say that getting Jack's body out of Dallas was part of the conspiracy, Jackie Kennedy was right at the center of that decision. Also, there's a whole new bunch of checks that your accountant has to write.
I don't know there was a conspiracy. That's part of the problem there is not one single issue that can be proven beyond any doubt. There's just a bunch of very suspicious things going on...

You're right, there is no suspicion of Jackie. I wonder if she knew about his philandering?

I read a piece today that they joined the mile high club on the way from Houston to Dallas. Sounded pretty convincing.

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
For additional reading, I recommend "Death of a President" by William Manchester.
Thanks! I'll be ordering Case Closed by Gerald Posner too...
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:51 AM   #2650
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The windshield thing is a comparatively superficial to what I was talking about before.

Can you respond to this post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2532
Already did, multiple times.

The best testimony is that taken within a year or less of the incident. The further away from the incident we get, the more likely memories are going to be wrong. The 1965 testimony you cite is likely to be the most accurate. Comparing it to testimony in 1978 to the HSCA or 1996 to the ARRB is a fool's game, and trying to make sense of all of it is simply going to introduce errors into your conclusions.

It needs no further explication.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:01 AM   #2651
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Not that you need any help, but you are, of course, absolutely correct. The phenomenon that causes the bullet to sound as if it's coming from the opposite or another direction is the supersonic shock wave creating a loud noise or zing on it's path as it goes supersonic. No suppressor required. A suppressor could reduce the muzzle blast sound so that from a distance the only sound heard might be the supersonic "crack".

Heck, even an air rifle pellet will do this if the speed of the pellet is > ~ 1000 fps at standard sea level temperature.

That's why soldiers are taught to listen for the "thump" sound of the rifle as opposed to the later supersonic shock wave sound in order to determine the location of the firearm. The sound of the firearm (it's doesn't have to be a rifle) occurs first.

There is a lengthy discussion of this in the Suppressor Thread in Politics.
You're close.

The reason you try to listen to the "thump" isn't to determine direction. If you can hear the report of (whatever) type weapon and start a one-one hundred two one hundred sequence count you can get a rough idea of the distance to the threat.

If we're talking about common service rifle caliber rounds, if you're at the wrong end of the beaten zone much farther than 300 yards/meters, you'll hear the rounds before the muzzle blast.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:06 AM   #2652
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
That's exactly what I meant, just couldn't articulate it very well. However, it would appear that some suppressors can distort the sound of the muzzle blast itself. See here: https://archive.org/stream/Modern_Fi...ge/n9/mode/2up
Any suppressor that works as intended "distorts" the sound of the muzzle blast itself.

It is not the key component in creating bad earwitness reports.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:11 AM   #2653
BStrong
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 10,493
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm going to try to summarize where I am at this point. There are only a few things I'll say about Dealey Plaza. At this point I realized after reading a bunch of material that my disbelief of the timing of shots was likely based on the spacing as opposed the overall timing from start to finish, but even that is debatable. The latest I've been reading is Josiah Thomson's piece Six Seconds in Dallas. He goes into excruciating detail on most issues complete with charts of timing and distance. I like his detail. I don't want to worry about his theory at this point, but the whole book appears to be pretty factual, based on what I know now. He reaches a CT conclusion, but it appears to me he's just following the evidence as he analyzes it.

Several witnesses saw either someone or more than two people in the TSBD window with a rifle prior to the motorcade's arrival. I appalled they didn't immediate say something to get the thing stopped. What the hell were they thinking? Was their timeline reversed due to trauma? I guess that's a good excuse. I'll leave Dealey Plaza for now...

This whole affair was very poorly handled in the aftermath either due to incompetence or perhaps the intention to cover up something. After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington. Who motivated that? If the autopsy had been done in Dallas by competent forensic pathologists they would have known about the throat wound and we might not have much of the controversy that exists today. I know the pathologists at Bethesda did not have a lot of time, but what was the rush? Why did they not plan on getting competent forensic pathologists to do the autopsy instead of two desk jockeys who didn't have a clue about a legal forensic based autopsy. Surely everyone knew this would be the autopsy of the Century up to that point. They committed some crucial errors and/or omissions leading to the probability that the whole truth won't ever be known. Was that all just incompetence and a rush to get it done or were there other motivations.

Why in the heck didn't the Limo undergo forensic examination. What was the rush to get it refurbished. There's a lot of discrepancies regarding it to make any reasonable person suspicious of the motive.

Then we have the Warren Commission. It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it). It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now. Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.

For me this is not at all similar to the other typical Conspiracy Theory subjects. There are many valid reasons to be suspicious about this one. Most of the others are just delusions by idiots. There are many idiots theorizing about this one too and it's hilarious. Provides a laugh a minute.

I'm open to other suggestions for additional reading of the non-CT oriented variety. It's difficult to dig thru them there are so many that are pure CT. Right now, I'm not in the US, so all I have access to is Internet based stuff at this point.
The feds collectively and Jackie in particular was done with Texas when JFK died. There was no way they were going to sit for interviews or anything else conducted by any Texas authority, LE pr otherwise. If LBJ wasn't the V.P. they probably wouldn't have let him get on the plane.
__________________
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it." - Col. Jeff Cooper, U.S.M.C.

"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
BStrong is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:35 AM   #2654
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
If we're talking about common service rifle caliber rounds, if you're at the wrong end of the beaten zone much farther than 300 yards/meters, you'll hear the rounds before the muzzle blast.
You're right. I was thinking of a witness in Dealey Plaza. At any rate the zing or crack from the supersonic shock wave will have a very different sound than the thump from the muzzle blast.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:37 AM   #2655
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The feds collectively and Jackie in particular was done with Texas when JFK died. There was no way they were going to sit for interviews or anything else conducted by any Texas authority, LE pr otherwise. If LBJ wasn't the V.P. they probably wouldn't have let him get on the plane.
There's likely a lot of truth in that.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:53 AM   #2656
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm going to try to summarize where I am at this point. There are only a few things I'll say about Dealey Plaza. At this point I realized after reading a bunch of material that my disbelief of the timing of shots was likely based on the spacing as opposed the overall timing from start to finish, but even that is debatable. The latest I've been reading is Josiah Thomson's piece Six Seconds in Dallas. He goes into excruciating detail on most issues complete with charts of timing and distance. I like his detail. I don't want to worry about his theory at this point, but the whole book appears to be pretty factual, based on what I know now. He reaches a CT conclusion, but it appears to me he's just following the evidence as he analyzes it.
Have you gotten to the 'white mass' on the trunk yet? Care to discuss how he's being less than truthful there and concealing the evidence that destroys his argument?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Several witnesses saw either someone or more than two people in the TSBD window with a rifle prior to the motorcade's arrival. I appalled they didn't immediate say something to get the thing stopped. What the hell were they thinking?
One young man thought it was a Secret Service agent with a rifle, and pointed that out to his wife. He admitted to having nightmares about his failure to point the gunman out at the time.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/rowland_a.htm

Senator COOPER - At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?
Mr. ROWLAND - There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.
Senator COOPER - Did you see any others?
Mr. ROWLAND - There were officers all over, that was the closest one. There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.
There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed officers right there in that 1 1/2-block area.
Senator COOPER - Could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing?
Mr. ROWLAND - They could have; yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - You don't remember whether any of them were looking up there?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.
Senator COOPER - Did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window?
Mr. ROWLAND - It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?
Senator COOPER - What?
Mr. ROWLAND - Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?
Senator COOPER - Yes.
Mr. ROWLAND - This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something which shakes me up at times.
Senator COOPER - I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes; that is right.
Senator COOPER - That is all.
The CHAIRMAN - Anything further, Congressman Ford?
Representative FORD - Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back--
The CHAIRMAN - Supposing we take a few minutes recess.
Mr. ROWLAND - The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I pass that area very frequently.
The Chairman.Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?
Mr. WRIGHT - No, Your Honor.
The CHAIRMAN - Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and I appreciate We will take a short recess.



Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Was their timeline reversed due to trauma? I guess that's a good excuse. I'll leave Dealey Plaza for now...
Nothing like that.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
This whole affair was very poorly handled in the aftermath either due to incompetence or perhaps the intention to cover up something. After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington.
I for one am glad they did. If they didn't, guess what, the complaints wouldn't change, it would just be directly at Dallas... Dallas cops planted the rifle, Dallas officials helped plan the route, Dallas had the body... nothing would change in CT-ville except who's blamed for the conspiracy. It would not be a massive federal government conspiracy, it'd be a local Dallas one.

Getting the body out of Dallas makes for a much more complex and larger conspiracy. So I'm glad it happened that way. But it was only happenstance. The safest place for the new President was in the air, but LBJ wasn't getting airborne without Jackie, and Jackie wasn't leaving the body.

One thing I think has only been touched upon briefly and all but ignored by conspiracy theorists. That is the fact that EVERYONE approached to be part of the body alteration team or the witness elimination squad or the forging of evidence group must have all said "YES!"

How did the plotters ensure that, or ensure the silence of anyone who chose to say "No thanks!" to a plot to murder the president?

We should have a lot of people claiming to be approached to do this or that, but on that score, there's been relative silence.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Who motivated that? If the autopsy had been done in Dallas by competent forensic pathologists they would have known about the throat wound and we might not have much of the controversy that exists today.
Would NOT change the conspiracy arguments one iota, except who they blame. If Dallas authorities had the body, guess who'd be getting blamed for an inadequate autopsy, or concealing the truth? Dallas authorities.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I know the pathologists at Bethesda did not have a lot of time, but what was the rush? Why did they not plan on getting competent forensic pathologists to do the autopsy instead of two desk jockeys who didn't have a clue about a legal forensic based autopsy.
Forensic pathology was a relatively new field. By the standards of the day, Humes, Boswell, and Finck were more than qualified to perform an autopsy. All had medical degrees, all had performed autopsies in the past. Critics like to talk about how they were unqualified, but they weren't.

A good example of that is the fact that every subsequent review of the extant autopsy materials has made the same determinations as the original autopsists... two shots from behind, the throat is a exit wound, not an entry, a small entry wound in the back of the head and a massive exit wound above the ear.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Surely everyone knew this would be the autopsy of the Century up to that point. They committed some crucial errors and/or omissions leading to the probability that the whole truth won't ever be known. Was that all just incompetence and a rush to get it done or were there other motivations.
What crucial errors and/or omissions?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Why in the heck didn't the Limo undergo forensic examination. What was the rush to get it refurbished. There's a lot of discrepancies regarding it to make any reasonable person suspicious of the motive.
Photos were taken of the limo on the night of the assassination and agents of the Secret Service went over the limo with a fine tooth comb. Some of the forensic evidence (two large fragments comprising the front and rear quarters of a bullet were found in the limo) that evening. Those two fragments were determined to have been fired from Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Then we have the Warren Commission. It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it).
They followed the evidence and reached the only defensible conclusion. Time has shown that's true.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now.
Some people don't accept the world is round. So what?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.
That was Warren and Redlich. They wanted a unanimous commission.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
For me this is not at all similar to the other typical Conspiracy Theory subjects. There are many valid reasons to be suspicious about this one.
Name one you're prepared to discuss in depth.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Most of the others are just delusions by idiots. There are many idiots theorizing about this one too and it's hilarious. Provides a laugh a minute.
I think that's rather harsh. I think those idiots are laughing all the way to the bank. The only idiots are the ones buying the guff.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm open to other suggestions for additional reading of the non-CT oriented variety.
I always suggest the 26 volumes of testimony & evidence here.
http://www.history-matters.com/archi...s/contents.htm

Reading that really exposed me to how the conspiracy authors were taking points out of context and ignoring contrary evidence to make their points.

In general, the conspiracy theorists (Thompson among them) stress selected eyewitness accounts over the hard evidence, use those selected accounts to dismiss the hard evidence, and then build their theory around that. That is exactly backwards from the way a true forensic investigation should proceed.




Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It's difficult to dig thru them there are so many that are pure CT. Right now, I'm not in the US, so all I have access to is Internet based stuff at this point.
You want a good overview of Oswald's motivation? $3.48 (U.S.) gets you this:
https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...c-_-ats-_-used

I highly recommend it.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; 20th March 2017 at 08:42 AM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:53 AM   #2657
Reheat
Illuminator
 
Reheat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: In Space
Posts: 3,564
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They didn't need the magic bullet in order to save the long gunman theory.

If they had the power to forge evidence, they could have easily added a bullet and a bullet hole to the limo, and said that the first shot hit Kennedy and lodged in the back seat. The second shot hit Connally and the third hit Kennedy. Lone gunman. No magic bullet. Problem solved.

They needed the magic bullet theory in order to explain the evidence.
I'm not so sure about that. At least two shots were very close together. There was a lot of disagreement on which two. I think it was the first two and the second one is the one that hit Conally. In other words two shots from different rifles. That's what I think based on the Zapruder film. Also, the back wound was much lower than the throat wound based on photos. That means it was not a pass thru. It wasn't a neck wound in the rear, it was lower in the back.

Because of the firecracker sound and the pathologists finding that the back wound was shallow (until they found out about the neck wound), I think that first shot was a malfunctioning round. Not a squib, but unburned powder due to age or simply powder deterioration. That's why it didn't penetrate as it should have.

Josiah Thompson thinks the throat wound may have been a piece of skull bone from the head shot or shots. If a bone fragment caused the windshield puncture it sure as heck could have caused the throat wound. We'll never know for sure because of the botched autopsy.
__________________
[Noc]
Reheat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:29 AM   #2658
traxy
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 138
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
The latest I've been reading is Josiah Thomson's piece Six Seconds in Dallas. He goes into excruciating detail on most issues complete with charts of timing and distance. I like his detail. I don't want to worry about his theory at this point, but the whole book appears to be pretty factual, based on what I know now. He reaches a CT conclusion, but it appears to me he's just following the evidence as he analyzes it.
Six Seconds in Dallas was published in 1967. In Kennedy Assassination terms, it's ancient history. There are a lot of better, more current books available.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington. Who motivated that?
As another poster pointed out, it was Jackie Kennedy. She refused to leave Dallas without Jack, and LBJ refused to leave Dallas without her. The Secret Service had no idea if there were foreign actors still actively attempting to kill LBJ, so there was tremendous pressure to get him onto Air Force One as quickly as possible.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I know the pathologists at Bethesda did not have a lot of time, but what was the rush? Why did they not plan on getting competent forensic pathologists to do the autopsy instead of two desk jockeys who didn't have a clue about a legal forensic based autopsy.
Again, blame Jackie on both counts. She personally selected Bethesda over Walter Reed because JFK was a navy man. Unfortunately that put an inexperienced person in charge of the autopsy at a facility ill equipped for it, but the call was hers.

As far as the timing goes, Jackie and Bobby were at Bethesda while the autopsy was happening and were pressuring them to get it done quickly. They were also trying to keep evidence of JFKs Addisons Disease and physical infirmity under wraps. Unfortunately doing that provided endless fodder for conspiracy theorists.

Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Why in the heck didn't the Limo undergo forensic examination. What was the rush to get it refurbished.
This is an old conspiracy talking point and it is wholly inaccurate. That limo was examined from top to bottom and wasn't "refurbished" until well after the Warren Commission investigation was through with it.

Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it). It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now. Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.
The single bullet theory is where the evidence led, and it has stood up to endless scrutiny for 50 plus years.
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 10:30 AM   #2659
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm not so sure about that. At least two shots were very close together. There was a lot of disagreement on which two. I think it was the first two and the second one is the one that hit Conally.
The bullet that struck Connally caused an elliptical entry wound on Connally - indicating it had been yawing. What would cause that yaw?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
In other words two shots from different rifles.
Yet somehow the only bullet or fragments or shells recovered are from Oswald's weapon, and the only shooter seen that day is the one in the Depository. And the only weapon recovered is found in the Depository. That's stretching coincidence a bit far, don't you think?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
That's what I think based on the Zapruder film. Also, the back wound was much lower than the throat wound based on photos. That means it was not a pass thru. It wasn't a neck wound in the rear, it was lower in the back.
Based on JFK's position in the limo, it was a downward path relative to the road. Dale Myers shows how the bullet's course can only be explained by a single bullet injuring both men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBXW1-VGmM


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Because of the firecracker sound and the pathologists finding that the back wound was shallow (until they found out about the neck wound), I think that first shot was a malfunctioning round. Not a squib, but unburned powder due to age or simply powder deterioration. That's why it didn't penetrate as it should have.
Three problems -

First, if an accidental malfunctioning round, the speed of the bullet was unintentionally reduced. Traveling slower means it took more time to transverse whatever distance it needed to transverse, meaning it was subject to gravity for a longer period. From what I've seen, the shooter would have NOT been aiming at JFK to hit JFK. Had he been aiming at JFK, this misfired round would have missed JFK and hit the trunk. The shooter therefore must have been aiming over JFK's head when this shot was fired; not at JFK. That's the only way for a bullet that doesn't have sufficient speed to penetrate less than six inches of flesh to hit the President and not exit.

Second, why wasn't this bullet found in JFK? Full body x-rays were made at autopsy, no bullet was seen in the body.

Third, that makes the throat wound an entry. Where's that bullet?

Congratulations, you just introduced two magic disappearing bullets into the conversation.


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
Josiah Thompson thinks the throat wound may have been a piece of skull bone from the head shot or shots. If a bone fragment caused the windshield puncture it sure as heck could have caused the throat wound.
Not sure anyone said the windshield damage was caused by bone. JFK is pointing at his throat a good two-three seconds before the head shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU83R7rpXQY
Watch his left index finger closely in frames 255-262.

Does Thompson explain why JFK points to his throat before Thompson believes the throat wound was inflicted? He brags throughout the book how he was able to see the original Z-film. He never noticed that pointing?


Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
We'll never know for sure because of the botched autopsy.
Second time: What was botched, and how come all subsequent reviews confirmed the findings of the original autopsists?

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; 20th March 2017 at 10:48 AM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 11:47 AM   #2660
Axxman300
Master Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 2,165
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
This whole affair was very poorly handled in the aftermath either due to incompetence or perhaps the intention to cover up something. After the shooting, it all begins when SS illegally removed the body from Parkland to take back to Washington. Who motivated that? If the autopsy had been done in Dallas by competent forensic pathologists they would have known about the throat wound and we might not have much of the controversy that exists today. I know the pathologists at Bethesda did not have a lot of time, but what was the rush?
The answer to this part is: The Kennedys

Jackie wanted to get her husband out of a hostile city. RFK was the Attorney General, and was the one putting pressure to rush the Bethesda team.

It was RFK who ordered JFK's brain removed from the National Archives to be reinterred with the body during the move to the permanent grave site.

They were Catholic, and it was a big deal to get the body into the ground within 3 days.

RFK was the guy who shut down avenues of investigation which might have exposed the JFK Administration's dirty dealings with the Mafia to kill Castro.

These are things that Josiah Thompson could not have known in 1967 when he wrote his book, and therefore his facts are incomplete at best.

Quote:
Why in the heck didn't the Limo undergo forensic examination. What was the rush to get it refurbished. There's a lot of discrepancies regarding it to make any reasonable person suspicious of the motive.
I already answered that. The limo was examined.
It was refurbished because a new one would have run over $500,000, and they just didn't want to spent the money.


Quote:
Then we have the Warren Commission. It was rather obvious there was concerted effort to establish the Lone Gunman theory and in order to do that we get Spector's Magic Bullet (I think he first came up with it). It had to be pushed really hard to ensure the Lone Gunman outcome. I didn't accept the magic bullet theory at when it happened and I don't accept it now. Half of the Commission would not accept it and half did. So, Spector devised creative wording to get everyone to agree.
But it wasn't magic, it was a straight line. Moreover, the shot has been successfully recreated with gel-pack replica targets - TWICE - resulting in the same damage, and the 6.5x52mm round bouncing free intact.

Spector was and is a bully, his intimidation and coercion of witnesses is well documented, but he was just one of the investigators. The ballistic evidence is solid pointing to one shooter, Lee Oswald.

If it makes you feel any better, the Secret Service driver of the car immediately BEHIND the President said that ALL THREE SHOTS struck the limo. The Warren Commission never interviewed him, and the Secret Service detail members still resent this omission from the report.


Quote:
I'm open to other suggestions for additional reading of the non-CT oriented variety. It's difficult to dig thru them there are so many that are pure CT. Right now, I'm not in the US, so all I have access to is Internet based stuff at this point.
Posner's book, Vince Bugliosi are good sources.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 01:55 PM   #2661
traxy
Thinker
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 138
Reclaiming History by Bugliosi is easily the best book on the subject. Most exhaustive exploration of the topic I've seen.
traxy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 02:48 PM   #2662
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Already did, multiple times.

The best testimony is that taken within a year or less of the incident. The further away from the incident we get, the more likely memories are going to be wrong. The 1965 testimony you cite is likely to be the most accurate. Comparing it to testimony in 1978 to the HSCA or 1996 to the ARRB is a fool's game, and trying to make sense of all of it is simply going to introduce errors into your conclusions.

It needs no further explication.

Hank
Hank, the post I linked was about the cranial opening apparent on the back wound photo. Can you respond to that?
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 02:52 PM   #2663
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
The bullet that struck Connally caused an elliptical entry wound on Connally - indicating it had been yawing. What would cause that yaw?
This just about sums up your tactics for arguing on the internet. Pages ago, you all agreed that an elliptical wound isn't very significant because Kennedy's small head wound was elliptical (15mm x 6mm).

Quote:
Based on JFK's position in the limo, it was a downward path relative to the road. Dale Myers shows how the bullet's course can only be explained by a single bullet injuring both men:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSBXW1-VGmM
http://www.patspeer.com/chapter12c%3Aanimania

Last edited by MicahJava; 20th March 2017 at 03:00 PM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 02:55 PM   #2664
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Posner's book, Vince Bugliosi are good sources.
LOL Posner literally lied about a bunch of stuff, like saying he scored an interview with the autopsy doctors even though he didn't.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 02:57 PM   #2665
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by traxy View Post
Reclaiming History by Bugliosi is easily the best book on the subject. Most exhaustive exploration of the topic I've seen.
Free ebook link for the 2013 edition (there's a 2016 edition, but it doesn't add too much more): Reclaiming Parkland: Tom Hanks, Vincent Bugliosi, and the JFK Assassination in the new Hollywood

Omitted chapter on Mexico City: http://feralhouse.com/wp/wp-content/...g-Parkland.pdf
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 02:59 PM   #2666
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
The bullet that struck Connally caused an elliptical entry wound on Connally - indicating it had been yawing. What would cause that yaw?
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
This just about sums up your tactics for arguing on the internet. Pages ago, you all agreed that an elliptical wound isn't very significant because Kennedy's small head wound was elliptical (15mm x 6mm).
You mean this?

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Instability and yawing of bullets can cause elliptical holes.
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."

Last edited by HSienzant; 20th March 2017 at 03:00 PM.
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:01 PM   #2667
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
You mean this?
So you think Kennedy's small head wound was caused by an unstable bullet?
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:40 PM   #2668
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So you think Kennedy's small head wound was caused by an unstable bullet?
Please don't put words in my mouth, and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.

Still waiting for you to explain the genesis of the bullet that was found at Parkland... was it a planted bullet, a bullet that survived a different shooting intact, or was it a bullet from the Kennedy assassination?

What did you come up with thus far?

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:43 PM   #2669
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Free ebook link for the 2013 edition (there's a 2016 edition, but it doesn't add too much more): Reclaiming Parkland: Tom Hanks, Vincent Bugliosi, and the JFK Assassination in the new Hollywood

Omitted chapter on Mexico City: http://feralhouse.com/wp/wp-content/...g-Parkland.pdf
QUOTE:
Reclaiming Parkland also includes extended looks at the little-known aspects of the lives and careers of Bugliosi, Hanks, and Goetzman--including Bugliosi’s three attempts at political office and a review of the Tate-LaBianca murders in the light of today’s knowledge of that case. DiEugenio also looks at the connections between Washington and Hollywood, as well as the CIA influence in the film colony today.
UNQUOTE:

So a hatchet job on Bugliosi (and Hanks and Goetzman) rather than addressing the substance of Bugliosi's book.

Thanks.
I'll pass.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:46 PM   #2670
HSienzant
Illuminator
 
HSienzant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 3,325
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
LOL Posner literally lied about a bunch of stuff, like saying he scored an interview with the autopsy doctors even though he didn't.
Attack the message, not the messenger.

Hank
__________________
"Looks like we're really in nut country now, Toto."
HSienzant is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 03:58 PM   #2671
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
QUOTE:
Reclaiming Parkland also includes extended looks at the little-known aspects of the lives and careers of Bugliosi, Hanks, and Goetzman--including Bugliosi’s three attempts at political office and a review of the Tate-LaBianca murders in the light of today’s knowledge of that case. DiEugenio also looks at the connections between Washington and Hollywood, as well as the CIA influence in the film colony today.
UNQUOTE:

So a hatchet job on Bugliosi (and Hanks and Goetzman) rather than addressing the substance of Bugliosi's book.

Thanks.
I'll pass.

Hank
The book is basically a long review the 1986 mock trial and Reclaiming History.

The ebook version I linked is an Amazin Kindle AZW file, so it must be used in conjunction with Amazon Kindle software.

Also, here's an ebook of Destiny Betrayed, second edition:

http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=...736B0EF8C09A68

This is an EPUB ebook file. It can be used with Amazon digital editions and other various programs that work with EPUB files (regular Adobe Acrobat or Foxxit pdf reader doesn't work).
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 04:22 PM   #2672
carlitos
"más divertido"
 
carlitos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 17,691
Originally Posted by traxy View Post
Reclaiming History by Bugliosi is easily the best book on the subject. Most exhaustive exploration of the topic I've seen.
Ditto.
carlitos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 04:31 PM   #2673
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Please don't put words in my mouth, and I'll extend the same courtesy to you.
Kennedy's head was turned about 17 degrees away from the sniper's nest at z313, and we are supposed to believe one bullet at that moment made a very elliptical 15x6mm entry wound. No explanation for why that wound was so elliptical besides obfuscation about a red spot on an autopsy photo that doesn't match the size, shape or location originally reported.

Meanwhile, we are also told that Connally's torso was turned significantly away from the snipers nest at the time of ~z222. Oh, his back wound was elliptical, so it must be because the bullet was unstable, and only because because it passed through Kennedy first. Some people like Bugliosi really stretch it and say Connally's elliptical back wound is "proof" of the SBT. It barely passes for evidence.

Quote:
Still waiting for you to explain the genesis of the bullet that was found at Parkland... was it a planted bullet, a bullet that survived a different shooting intact, or was it a bullet from the Kennedy assassination?

What did you come up with thus far?

Hank
That's not what I came here for. I can already see that this is a case where forensic evidence is deliberately kept vague and malleable. I'm still waiting for you to explain how Dr. Finck could see the imagined cowlick entry wound when he arrived by the time the cranium was opened as big as you can see on the back wound photo.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:55 PM   #2674
Axxman300
Master Poster
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 2,165
Originally Posted by HSienzant View Post
Attack the message, not the messenger.

Hank
JFK CT SOP, every time.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:51 PM   #2675
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Meanwhile, we are also told that Connally's torso was turned significantly away from the snipers nest at the time of ~z222. Oh, his back wound was elliptical, so it must be because the bullet was unstable, and only because because it passed through Kennedy first. Some people like Bugliosi really stretch it and say Connally's elliptical back wound is "proof" of the SBT. It barely passes for evidence.
But the bullet itself passes much better for evidence. It's flattened at the base, but not damaged significantly at the tip. That means it hit something hard, base first. What's the scenario where that could happen?
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:57 PM   #2676
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I'm not so sure about that. At least two shots were very close together.
According to earwitnesses? I don't see how you could conclude that from the Zapruder film.


Quote:
Also, the back wound was much lower than the throat wound based on photos. That means it was not a pass thru. It wasn't a neck wound in the rear, it was lower in the back.
The Warren Commission, and the first few decades of researchers, didn't have the benefit of 3D Cad models, but those who have had it say the wounds line up just like they need to for the single bullet to work. They've even used the wound locations to trace the line backward to estimate a cone of space from which the shot could have been fired. Guess which window was in the cone?

So, maybe they were incompetent? I suppose it's possible, although the tools are common enough today that it shouldn't be very difficult to recreate the work, and refute it by correcting any errors. Or, they were accessories after the fact, participating in the cover-up? Call up that accountant again. We need more checks.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 08:08 PM   #2677
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
But the bullet itself passes much better for evidence. It's flattened at the base, but not damaged significantly at the tip. That means it hit something hard, base first. What's the scenario where that could happen?
How can you know that to the exclusion of some filler like cotton wadding, ballistics gel, straw or water, or even something like a shot with a sabot?

Even meticulous JFK documenter and lone nutter David Von Pein admits that the experiment from the Discovery Channel's Beyond The Magic Bullet is "the closest we're likely to ever get to a perfect duplication of the single bullet theory"

MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 08:38 PM   #2678
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
How can you know that to the exclusion of some filler like cotton wadding, ballistics gel, straw or water, or even something like a shot with a sabot?
You can't. It looks exactly like a bullet that was fired through something soft, possibly gel, cotton, meat, whatever, and then hit something hard.
__________________
See you in 2018, maybe.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 09:11 PM   #2679
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
I want to correct my post above. The screenshot I posted was pulled from David Von Pein's blog. The Discovery Channel's Beyond The Magic Bullet bullet was actually WAY more deformed than you can see there, the entire thing was bent at like a ~30-50 degree angle. They just held it up to the camera a certain way to make it look less deformed. Never trust these TV specials!


Last edited by MicahJava; 20th March 2017 at 10:18 PM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 11:58 PM   #2680
MicahJava
Master Poster
 
MicahJava's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 2,244
Reheat, I would recommend not ordering Posner's book. He does so much lying and distorting that even Bugliosi called him out on it. He said he only studied the case for two years. I've looked at this kind of stuff on the internet almost every day for the past year and I'm just getting a grasp on the medical evidence. He even still pushes a book claiming that James Earl Ray shot MLK alone, despite several proofs being presented that it was a powerful conspiracy (just read Judge Joe Brown's testimony at the 1999 Memphis conspiracy trial to see some of the ballistics-related proofs that Ray was framed). Posner is as fake as his plastic surgery Ken Doll face.

If you want to see the current version of what you may call "the official story" here's Reclaiming History, in ebook form for free.

Pdf file: http://krusch.com/books/kennedy/Reclaiming_History.pdf

EPUB file: http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=...460EF2A4369145

MOBI file (works on Amazon Kindle software): http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=...eb19e0f1663594

And here's William Manchester's The Death of a President.

EPUB file: http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=...667BF478FFA184

MOBI file: http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=...11FC8857B29289

My favorite line in that book is "The Lincoln continues to slow down. Its interior is a place of horror. The last bullet has torn through John Kennedy’s cerebellum, the lower part of his brain."

Manchester interviewed Dr. George Burkley for this book, so this mention of the cerebellum is significant.

Last edited by MicahJava; 21st March 2017 at 12:01 AM.
MicahJava is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:47 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.