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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 20th March 2017, 06:29 PM   #2241
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You are not the only telecommunications expert in the village.
You are not telecommunications expert.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:32 PM   #2242
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is a surprisingly common thing for criminals to do (cf Jody Arias).
So what? It's also something that is done by millions of people that have no criminal intentions. Post hoc ergo proper hoc.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Read what the experts have to say.
I am an expert.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:34 PM   #2243
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I can't say I've dealt with high frequency communications. I knew what it wasn't. I just remember the image. I've sold cellular and microwave equipment, but never HF. I don't have a degree in communications, I've only sat through countless training seminars so I could sell the equipment to engineers.
LOL. We had a lecturer who inspired all of us to design our own antennae as a hobby.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:36 PM   #2244
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
LOL. We had a lecturer who inspired all of us to design our own antennae as a hobby.
I like the new fractal antennas.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:51 PM   #2245
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You are not telecommunications expert.
I have expert help at hand should I need it.

In the court case of Raff and Amanda, we have the forensic experts reports, so no degree in telecommunications needed.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:54 PM   #2246
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When my father was demobbed from the RAF after the war he worked at GPO Faraday House (of course the technology has moved on tremendously since then). He had a degree in physics and had a long career as a telecommunications engineer, until starting his own business. Earned enough to put his three sons (second marriage) through good public schools. Two of those sons did electronic/communications-type degrees before joining Sandhurst Military Academy for captaincy careers in the British Army, where they were in demand for their telecommunications expertise.

http://alondoninheritance.com/london...ctoria-street/

So I have expert help at hand should I need it.

In the court case of Raff and Amanda, we have the forensic experts reports, so no degree in telecommunications needed.
You don't have a clue. That your father may know something is yet to be determined. But the knowledge is not hereditary. It's not passed down through your genes. Oh, I forget, you don't believe in evolution either.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:57 PM   #2247
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I like the new fractal antennas.
Sadly, when one has an unpleasant divorce ones gear goes out in a skip. I will never forget the day when the majority of gear was hauled away in a skip. Various antennae, oscilloscopes, frequency meters, etc, all chucked in a skip and hauled away never to be seen again. That was a crapton of expensive gear, all lost.

Shrug.

The unkindest cut of all was that she did not do so out of malevolence in any way, it just looked like junk to her so she chucked it.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:01 PM   #2248
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
When my father was demobbed from the RAF after the war he worked at GPO Faraday House (of course the technology has moved on tremendously since then). He had a degree in physics and had a long career as a telecommunications engineer, until starting his own business. Earned enough to put his three sons (second marriage) through good public schools. Two of those sons did electronic/communications-type degrees before joining Sandhurst Military Academy for captaincy careers in the British Army, where they were in demand for their telecommunications expertise.

http://alondoninheritance.com/london...ctoria-street/

So I have expert help at hand should I need it.

In the court case of Raff and Amanda, we have the forensic experts reports, so no degree in telecommunications needed.
And those "forensic experts reports" are based on what? The phones or the service providers records? Which and why?
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:01 PM   #2249
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
....

.... my position on the aborted connection to Abbey (and the 901 voicemail number - or are you ignorant of that event too....?) is that whoever was operating Kercher's phone at that point made a number of sequenced, deliberate button pushes over at least a 2-minute period, resulting in the known evidence of those two auto-aborted calls. My position is actually that whoever was holding the phone was in fact trying (unsuccessfully) to turn off the handset or place into mute mode. ....
....
LJ, I wonder about this. Wouldn't the "off" button be pretty clearly marked* and positioned so as to suggest its function?

*By a symbol or in English. I don't dispute that Guede's knowledge of English may have been highly limited, and I don't know the key layout on Kercher's English phone (nor on the Italian one, but that may be less relevant).

My speculation is that Guede may have been curious about to whom those numbers belonged and tried them, then realized that his efforts, and use of the phone, and possession of both, could draw unwelcome attention. Neither phone was turned off when found, IIRC. I find it hard to believe that the "off" button would be that hard to identify, as long as one had previously used a cell phone for any length of time (days or weeks).

Last edited by Numbers; 20th March 2017 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:05 PM   #2250
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Sadly, when one has an unpleasant divorce ones gear goes out in a skip. I will never forget the day when the majority of gear was hauled away in a skip. Various antennae, oscilloscopes, frequency meters, etc, all chucked in a skip and hauled away never to be seen again. That was a crapton of expensive gear, all lost.

Shrug.

The unkindest cut of all was that she did not do so out of malevolence in any way, it just looked like junk to her so she chucked it.
Ouch. Tools for someone who doesn't use them I'm sure looks, like junk.

There's a famous or infamous story of a woman near here being asked by her soon to be or already divorced husband who lived elsewhere if she would sell his expensive Porsche for him. She sold it for $100. A fraction of its value.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:07 PM   #2251
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
LJ, I wonder about this. Wouldn't the "off" button be pretty clearly marked* and positioned so as to suggest its function?

*By a symbol or in English. I don't dispute that Guede's knowledge of English may have been highly limited, and I don't know the key layout on Kercher's English phone (nor on the Italian one, but that may be less relevant).

My speculation is that Guede may have been curious about to whom those numbers belonged and tried them, then realized that his efforts, and use of the phone, and possession of both, could draw unwelcome attention. Neither phone was turned off when found, IIRC. I find it hard to believe that the "off" button would be that hard to identify, as long as one had previously used a cell phone for any length of time (days or weeks).
Why? I can identify six buttons on my phone right now. None of them are marked in any way. Nor my last phone. Nor the one before that.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:10 PM   #2252
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
LJ, I wonder about this. Wouldn't the "off" button be pretty clearly marked* and positioned so as to suggest its function?

*By a symbol or in English. I don't dispute that Guede's knowledge of English may have been highly limited, and I don't know the key layout on Kercher's English phone (nor on the Italian one, but that may be less relevant).

My speculation is that Guede may have been curious about to whom those numbers belonged and tried them, then realized that his efforts, and use of the phone, and possession of both, could draw unwelcome attention. Neither phone was turned off when found, IIRC. I find it hard to believe that the "off" button would be that hard to identify, as long as one had previously used a cell phone for any length of time (days or weeks).
I don't think all phones had the off button clearly labeled. Sometimes it would be a different shape or it have been color coded. Hell, I remember only bits of this. Guess I cleared out the cache.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:18 PM   #2253
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Ouch. Tools for someone who doesn't use them I'm sure looks, like junk.

There's a famous or infamous story of a woman near here being asked by her soon to be or already divorced husband who lived elsewhere if she would sell his expensive Porsche for him. She sold it for $100. A fraction of its value.
Well, I got to retain some of the more expensive items. While removing the most expensive bitch item.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:21 PM   #2254
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Evidence isn't about statistics and pattern matching. If it was everyone that breathed oxygen would be guilty of murder (since all murderers breathe oxygen).

AK and RS turning off their phones at a time that appears to roughly correspond to the alleged timespan of the crime isn't a relevant piece of evidence by itself in the void. Anglolawyer used to give a good example of interpreting evidence. He reasoned that evidence is like radiation left over by the actual process of actually committing the crime.

It's easier to just quote him:



The cell phones being switched off means nothing in and of itself. It has to be part of a broader scope of the crime. It would have to connect with a theory of pre-meditation. Otherwise they are retroactively turning off their cell phone after a spontaneous decision to commit a crime, violating the laws of causality.



Constructing a premeditation theory of the crime doesn't work, because AK and RS had existing plans that were only cancelled at the last moment, and had no means of coordinating with Rudy whom they did not know nor know if he would even be available that night or when. This is why the prosecution and courts never described a premeditated event. Working the phones into the surrounding circumstantial evidence takes you on a jumbled path that leads nowhere. Of course, the police originally conceived of a premeditated crime due to their suspect Patrick and his communication and agreed meeting with Amanda, but Patrick being removed from the picture killed that theory and really should have killed AKs involvement along with Patrick's... (but I digress).

I used to think the PGP were just bad at understanding how evidence works and relying on simple pattern matching (the flawed reasoning that if other cases have X, and this case has X, then this case is like other cases). But I came to realize it's not necessarily the case. They already know Amanda is guilty as a starting axiom. The evidence is simply splattered at random post-hoc.
Even turning off the phones (or any one of them) does not really fit with a realistic theory of premeditation, since with the phones off, there are no possible pings with any cell towers near Sollecito's apartment. The more sensible scheme for premeditation would be to keep the phones on and keep them, possibly out doors to maximize signal reception, near the apartment or some other place far from the crime scene. All the allegedly incriminating evidence from the phones is just BS - meaningless "reasoning" - from Mignini (used in to provide the arbitrary justification for the arrests on Nov. 6) and later from the PGP.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:24 PM   #2255
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
LJ, I wonder about this. Wouldn't the "off" button be pretty clearly marked* and positioned so as to suggest its function?

*By a symbol or in English. I don't dispute that Guede's knowledge of English may have been highly limited, and I don't know the key layout on Kercher's English phone (nor on the Italian one, but that may be less relevant).

My speculation is that Guede may have been curious about to whom those numbers belonged and tried them, then realized that his efforts, and use of the phone, and possession of both, could draw unwelcome attention. Neither phone was turned off when found, IIRC. I find it hard to believe that the "off" button would be that hard to identify, as long as one had previously used a cell phone for any length of time (days or weeks).

The handset in question was a Sony Ericsson k700i. It has a monochrome appearance, making it immediately difficult to identify and differentiate buttons. It looks like this:



There is an on/off button on the top edge of the phone, but again it's monochrome in appearance. In addition, it needs to be pressed and held down for several seconds before the handset goes into power-down mode.

I think it's entirely feasible that someone who was fumbling to switch off or mute this handset (especially someone who was juiced up on adrenaline, fear and guilt after just having committed a vicious sex murder, and who might well have been unable to understand the English words on the screen.....) might have had problems. Perhaps the person did try to hold down the on/off button on the top of the handset, but just didn't hold it down for long enough. And then that person started pressing other buttons on the main face of the handset.....

(By the way, Kercher's Italian phone was switched off when it was found the following day in Lana's garden - and it had been switched off when Knox had been trying to call it around midday. Furthermore, that Italian phone registered no network connectivity or activity at any point after the murder. So it's reasonable to suppose that the person in control of the phones after the murder did indeed manage to switch off that Italian handset.)
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:33 PM   #2256
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[quote=Vixen;11764707]
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

The OP did indeed suggest this. Take it up with the OP.

I am glad you agree with me, Stacyhs, that it is an ignorant idea.
How about giving that link? I saw no such suggestion.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:34 PM   #2257
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
The handset in question was a Sony Ericsson k700i. It has a monochrome appearance, making it immediately difficult to identify and differentiate buttons. It looks like this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...08d2f9c051.jpg

There is an on/off button on the top edge of the phone, but again it's monochrome in appearance. In addition, it needs to be pressed and held down for several seconds before the handset goes into power-down mode.

I think it's entirely feasible that someone who was fumbling to switch off or mute this handset (especially someone who was juiced up on adrenaline, fear and guilt after just having committed a vicious sex murder, and who might well have been unable to understand the English words on the screen.....) might have had problems. Perhaps the person did try to hold down the on/off button on the top of the handset, but just didn't hold it down for long enough. And then that person started pressing other buttons on the main face of the handset.....

(By the way, Kercher's Italian phone was switched off when it was found the following day in Lana's garden - and it had been switched off when Knox had been trying to call it around midday. Furthermore, that Italian phone registered no network connectivity or activity at any point after the murder. So it's reasonable to suppose that the person in control of the phones after the murder did indeed manage to switch off that Italian handset.)
Thanks for the information. (I would have guessed the off key was one of the two in the second row directly below the screen.)

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Old 20th March 2017, 07:36 PM   #2258
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Even turning off the phones (or any one of them) does not really fit with a realistic theory of premeditation, since with the phones off, there are no possible pings with any cell towers near Sollecito's apartment. The more sensible scheme for premeditation would be to keep the phones on and keep them, possibly out doors to maximize signal reception, near the apartment or some other place far from the crime scene. All the allegedly incriminating evidence from the phones is just BS - meaningless "reasoning" - from Mignini (used in to provide the arbitrary justification for the arrests on Nov. 6) and later from the PGP.
Exactly. You leave them on, but at home.

But the premeditation just doesn't mesh in any way with the facts. Never mind that Amanda and Raffaele had plans up to minutes before Meredith was arriving home and at the same time Rudy was caught by the CCTV camera at the garage ALONE. Imagine trying to convince your new acquaintances that you barely can communicate with to come and help murder your roommate. Excuse me? And then covering for each other? It's ridiculous.
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:37 PM   #2259
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Even turning off the phones (or any one of them) does not really fit with a realistic theory of premeditation, since with the phones off, there are no possible pings with any cell towers near Sollecito's apartment. The more sensible scheme for premeditation would be to keep the phones on and keep them, possibly out doors to maximize signal reception, near the apartment or some other place far from the crime scene. All the allegedly incriminating evidence from the phones is just BS - meaningless "reasoning" - from Mignini (used in to provide the arbitrary justification for the arrests on Nov. 6) and later from the PGP.

Exactly. And this is (yet) another point that most pro-guilt commentators seem unable or unwilling to grasp. Sollecito certainly knew more than enough about technology to know that by far his best bet - had he and Knox really planned to go over to the cottage to do something very unpleasant to Kercher - was to leave his and Knox's mobile phones inside his apartment, switched on and in network coverage. That way, they could subsequently point to the phone records as at least some sort of evidence that they had been within Sollecito's apartment all along......
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:46 PM   #2260
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have expert help at hand should I need it.

In the court case of Raff and Amanda, we have the forensic experts reports, so no degree in telecommunications needed.
And those experts examined what, exactly?
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Old 20th March 2017, 07:50 PM   #2261
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I just love when Vixen makes authoritive ABSOLUTE statements that she doesn't have a damn clue about.
Well, you've certainly come to the right place.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:57 AM   #2262
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Latella testifies as follows:



About Raff's phone: the expert confirms it was turned off between 8:42 and 6:02 next morning.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.co...%27s_Testimony
Thank you for this quote I had not seen it before.
"Quote:
Yes, we have done this, we took a month of traffic which is a period that we consider adequate to back in principle to the habits of a person, and we noticed that the phone is normally used during the night is rarely turned off, but putting along the logoff time with the logon hours, and we note and the only time in a month when the phone is turned off at 20:42 pm ..., that does not generate traffic from 20:42 pm to 6:02 hours in the morning. See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. Instead the only day that is turned on at a time, at 6 in the morning is this, there are other times when the phone is switched on in a month at 6am."

So it appears quite common for the phone to be 'turned off' overnight.

"See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. "

So the three preceding nights the phone is 'turned off'.
24.00 to 09.00
24.00 to 12.00
24.00 to 08.20.

So what is unique is that it was 'switched off' earlier than usual at 20.42 and 'switched on' earlier than usual at 06.00. Though he does point out there are other days that it is 'switched on' at 06.00.

So I think we need to be clear that 'switching off' the phone overnight was not a unique event, nor was switching it on at 06.00. The only unique event was it being 'turned off' at 20.42.

What 'turning off' means is slightly moot. It seems to mean that the network 'lost' the phone, which may be because it was switched off or that it was in a dead zone.

One could argue about how representative a month was; the day was unique as the only 'holiday'. It also followed on the only halloween. It was also associated with the nearly unique event of having a girl over, so one would not expect behaviour to be the same as previous nights in October.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:11 AM   #2263
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Thank you for this quote I had not seen it before.
"Quote:
Yes, we have done this, we took a month of traffic which is a period that we consider adequate to back in principle to the habits of a person, and we noticed that the phone is normally used during the night is rarely turned off, but putting along the logoff time with the logon hours, and we note and the only time in a month when the phone is turned off at 20:42 pm ..., that does not generate traffic from 20:42 pm to 6:02 hours in the morning. See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. Instead the only day that is turned on at a time, at 6 in the morning is this, there are other times when the phone is switched on in a month at 6am."

So it appears quite common for the phone to be 'turned off' overnight.

"See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. "

So the three preceding nights the phone is 'turned off'.
24.00 to 09.00
24.00 to 12.00
24.00 to 08.20.

So what is unique is that it was 'switched off' earlier than usual at 20.42 and 'switched on' earlier than usual at 06.00. Though he does point out there are other days that it is 'switched on' at 06.00.

So I think we need to be clear that 'switching off' the phone overnight was not a unique event, nor was switching it on at 06.00. The only unique event was it being 'turned off' at 20.42.

What 'turning off' means is slightly moot. It seems to mean that the network 'lost' the phone, which may be because it was switched off or that it was in a dead zone.

One could argue about how representative a month was; the day was unique as the only 'holiday'. It also followed on the only halloween. It was also associated with the nearly unique event of having a girl over, so one would not expect behaviour to be the same as previous nights in October.
I have to say I sometimes feel a bit bad about the pile on that happens on this thread, but that highlighted part was exactly my take.
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Old 21st March 2017, 08:49 AM   #2264
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Thank you for this quote I had not seen it before.
"Quote:
Yes, we have done this, we took a month of traffic which is a period that we consider adequate to back in principle to the habits of a person, and we noticed that the phone is normally used during the night is rarely turned off, but putting along the logoff time with the logon hours, and we note and the only time in a month when the phone is turned off at 20:42 pm ..., that does not generate traffic from 20:42 pm to 6:02 hours in the morning. See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. Instead the only day that is turned on at a time, at 6 in the morning is this, there are other times when the phone is switched on in a month at 6am."

So it appears quite common for the phone to be 'turned off' overnight.

"See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. "

So the three preceding nights the phone is 'turned off'.
24.00 to 09.00
24.00 to 12.00
24.00 to 08.20.

So what is unique is that it was 'switched off' earlier than usual at 20.42 and 'switched on' earlier than usual at 06.00. Though he does point out there are other days that it is 'switched on' at 06.00.

So I think we need to be clear that 'switching off' the phone overnight was not a unique event, nor was switching it on at 06.00. The only unique event was it being 'turned off' at 20.42.

What 'turning off' means is slightly moot. It seems to mean that the network 'lost' the phone, which may be because it was switched off or that it was in a dead zone.

One could argue about how representative a month was; the day was unique as the only 'holiday'. It also followed on the only halloween. It was also associated with the nearly unique event of having a girl over, so one would not expect behaviour to be the same as previous nights in October.
Well then, the obvious question is,who did Raf murder on the three previous nights when he shut off his phone? Lol!
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:01 AM   #2265
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Originally Posted by Anode View Post
Well then, the obvious question is,who did Raf murder on the three previous nights when he shut off his phone? Lol!
You miss the import of the three previous nights.

They were test runs. After having turned off his phone the three previous nights and noting that the Carabinieri had not beaten down his door, Sollecito knew it was safe to do it the fourth night - and then go out and create mayhem.
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In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:45 AM   #2266
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Originally Posted by Anode View Post
Well then, the obvious question is,who did Raf murder on the three previous nights when he shut off his phone? Lol!
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Old 21st March 2017, 09:54 AM   #2267
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
You miss the import of the three previous nights.

They were test runs. After having turned off his phone the three previous nights and noting that the Carabinieri had not beaten down his door, Sollecito knew it was safe to do it the fourth night - and then go out and create mayhem.
Bill, we all know that turning off one's cell phone is itself a criminal act.

There are those liberal sob-sisters who claim people turn off cell phones to recharge them faster, or so as not to lose charge, or to ensure that no calls disturb them, or that a phone in a signal dead-spot will appear off to the cell network, but we know those are all fanciful excuses to cover-up the shocking criminality of taking one's cell phone off-network.

And that is why for the Knox - Sollecito case this issue must be endlessly repeated as though it had some inculpatory significance.
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Old 21st March 2017, 10:19 AM   #2268
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Bill, we all know that turning off one's cell phone is itself a criminal act.

There are those liberal sob-sisters who claim people turn off cell phones to recharge them faster, or so as not to lose charge, or to ensure that no calls disturb them, or that a phone in a signal dead-spot will appear off to the cell network, but we know those are all fanciful excuses to cover-up the shocking criminality of taking one's cell phone off-network.

And that is why for the Knox - Sollecito case this issue must be endlessly repeated as though it had some inculpatory significance.
I'm pretty sure that the other nights had something to do with s*x. The height of wickedness.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:49 PM   #2269
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Exactly. You leave them on, but at home.

But the premeditation just doesn't mesh in any way with the facts. Never mind that Amanda and Raffaele had plans up to minutes before Meredith was arriving home and at the same time Rudy was caught by the CCTV camera at the garage ALONE. Imagine trying to convince your new acquaintances that you barely can communicate with to come and help murder your roommate. Excuse me? And then covering for each other? It's ridiculous.
Of course they cover for each other. What else can they do?

BTW Premeditation can be literally seconds. If you decide to go out to teach your friend a lesson and you grab a kitchen knife on the way there, then that becomes premeditation.

Amanda read her email from Patrick not to come in (sent by him 20:17) which she read circa 20:40 and immediately deleted her reply to him and switched off the phone.

Somewhere along the way either one of the pair grabbed Raff's kitchen knife, as hypothesised by the police, who are crime experts, after all.

It looks like premeditation from here.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:01 PM   #2270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course they cover for each other. What else can they do?

BTW Premeditation can be literally seconds. If you decide to go out to teach your friend a lesson and you grab a kitchen knife on the way there, then that becomes premeditation.

Amanda read her email from Patrick not to come in (sent by him 20:17) which she read circa 20:40 and immediately deleted her reply to him and switched off the phone.

Somewhere along the way either one of the pair grabbed Raff's kitchen knife, as hypothesised by the police, who are crime experts, after all.

It looks like premeditation from here.
The problem is Rudy. Even if A&R spontaneously decide to go slaughter Meredith because she once complained about the bathroom chores, how do you get from there to Rudy - a random town burglar - raping the victim, covering himself in her blood, and being the only one leaving the primary timestamped forensic evidence? Did they just happen to run into him on the 3 minute walk to the cottage, spontaneously decide to add this stranger to the murder plan, he spontaneously decided to agree to help slaughter his friends girlfriend for no reason, and the fact that he had been caught snooping around the cottage alone like a burglar before the students prior plans were canceled was just a strange psychic premonition of the evenings later events?

It's a problem that no one has satisfactorily answered and contributed significantly to the students acquittal(s). You wont understand or comprehend this though because of reasons, so that's why their acquittal will always be incomprehensible to you, some unexplained nefarious mafia/masonic/state department plot.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:08 PM   #2271
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Thank you for this quote I had not seen it before.
"Quote:
Yes, we have done this, we took a month of traffic which is a period that we consider adequate to back in principle to the habits of a person, and we noticed that the phone is normally used during the night is rarely turned off, but putting along the logoff time with the logon hours, and we note and the only time in a month when the phone is turned off at 20:42 pm ..., that does not generate traffic from 20:42 pm to 6:02 hours in the morning. See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. Instead the only day that is turned on at a time, at 6 in the morning is this, there are other times when the phone is switched on in a month at 6am."

So it appears quite common for the phone to be 'turned off' overnight.

"See for example the day before it resumes at 9 am and is turned off at midnight, the day before is still activated at noon and is switched off around midnight. The day before at 8:20 in the morning and turned off after midnight and so on. "

So the three preceding nights the phone is 'turned off'.
24.00 to 09.00
24.00 to 12.00
24.00 to 08.20.

So what is unique is that it was 'switched off' earlier than usual at 20.42 and 'switched on' earlier than usual at 06.00. Though he does point out there are other days that it is 'switched on' at 06.00.

So I think we need to be clear that 'switching off' the phone overnight was not a unique event, nor was switching it on at 06.00. The only unique event was it being 'turned off' at 20.42.

What 'turning off' means is slightly moot. It seems to mean that the network 'lost' the phone, which may be because it was switched off or that it was in a dead zone.

One could argue about how representative a month was; the day was unique as the only 'holiday'. It also followed on the only halloween. It was also associated with the nearly unique event of having a girl over, so one would not expect behaviour to be the same as previous nights in October.
Chronology is of key importance in solving crime and taking a case to court.

You fail to observe the chronological sequence:

-Amanda spent Halloween night mostly alone, having been snubbed by Mez, despite dropping heavy hints.

-Next day Mez got up late went out 4:00 pm to visit friends again, leaving Amanda and Raff to it.

-The pair wandered into town and were evasive about it to police. Amanda even omits it in her Prision Diary.

-Raff originally told police he came home alone about 9:00 and Amanda turned up at 01:00.

-Amanda got a text message from Patrick saying, don't come in. She already knew he was taking on Mez.

-She read his message whilst located near the cottage. She claimed to police she was with Raff when she read the message.

-She replied to Patrick and then deleted it.

-She turned off her phone. Raff's phone became inactive. As Latella says, this was due to being turned off, broken, or some other mecahnical issue with the phone. The networks signals were all strong and normal - as evidenced by other users in the same vicinity as Raff and with the same architecture and building materials as Raff's abode.


- Raff did not turn it back on until 6:00 next morning, but lied to police he slept through until after 10:30.

- Amanda did not turn hers back on until midday - to call Mez' disposed of phone.

-In Raff's original statement to police he said he spoke to his dad at 23:00pm - another lie.

- Raff and Papa Raff made statements to the police they had their evening meal by 8:42 and after washing up there was a leak at the pipes.

-Amanda told police this did not happen until 9:00, 10:00 or 11:00 depending on what version of her 'best truth' you look at.

- She claimed she slept through from after dinner at 23:00 through to 10-ish next day.

-Police discovered someone had downloaded and played grunge with aggressive lyrics (come as you are, fight club, etc) at 5:30-ish. Hellmann's claim this was light relaxing morning music is utterly bonkers.

-Raff reveals Amanda wasn't even faithful to him - being more interested in keeping up her romance with David Johnsrud and sexting him.

So don't give up the course at Police Academy just yet.
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O'er moor and fen, o'er crag and torrent, till
The night is gone.
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Which I have loved long since, and lost awhile!
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:12 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Exactly. And this is (yet) another point that most pro-guilt commentators seem unable or unwilling to grasp. Sollecito certainly knew more than enough about technology to know that by far his best bet - had he and Knox really planned to go over to the cottage to do something very unpleasant to Kercher - was to leave his and Knox's mobile phones inside his apartment, switched on and in network coverage. That way, they could subsequently point to the phone records as at least some sort of evidence that they had been within Sollecito's apartment all along......
Would...could...should...
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:14 PM   #2273
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
And those experts examined what, exactly?
They examined phone and computer logs in minute intricate detail.

And I promise you, they had ZERO desire to frame anybody or make up data.

Would you make up data, if asked to help with a crime? Of course not. A professional has an obligation to be objective.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:25 PM   #2274
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
The problem is Rudy. Even if A&R spontaneously decide to go slaughter Meredith because she once complained about the bathroom chores, how do you get from there to Rudy - a random town burglar - raping the victim, covering himself in her blood, and being the only one leaving the primary timestamped forensic evidence? Did they just happen to run into him on the 3 minute walk to the cottage, spontaneously decide to add this stranger to the murder plan, he spontaneously decided to agree to help slaughter his friends girlfriend for no reason, and the fact that he had been caught snooping around the cottage alone like a burglar before the students prior plans were canceled was just a strange psychic premonition of the evenings later events?

It's a problem that no one has satisfactorily answered and contributed significantly to the students acquittal(s). You wont understand or comprehend this though because of reasons, so that's why their acquittal will always be incomprehensible to you, some unexplained nefarious mafia/masonic/state department plot.
It's rather connected to their trip into town. You know? The errand they were so evasive about with cops?

Amanda was in Piazza Grimana when she read Patrick's text. No doubt Rudy was also there.

You are right, it's not a row about the bathroom rota. This murder has 'Vengeance' written large all over it.

The clue about what Rudy was doing there can be found in Amanda's early statements to police. She met 'Patrick' in Piazza Grimana and took him to the cottage to have sex with Mez.

What horny 20-year old is going to turn down a party which includes the beautiful Mez, or maybe Amanda - as Rudy keeps telling us it was her he was interested in. So, Rudy was there for the same reason many people go to parties.

It's a puzzle to me why it is such a big puzzle for you.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:27 PM   #2275
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Even turning off the phones (or any one of them) does not really fit with a realistic theory of premeditation, since with the phones off, there are no possible pings with any cell towers near Sollecito's apartment. The more sensible scheme for premeditation would be to keep the phones on and keep them, possibly out doors to maximize signal reception, near the apartment or some other place far from the crime scene. All the allegedly incriminating evidence from the phones is just BS - meaningless "reasoning" - from Mignini (used in to provide the arbitrary justification for the arrests on Nov. 6) and later from the PGP.
I am sure they will bear that in mind, next time.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:40 PM   #2276
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Chronology is of key importance in solving crime and taking a case to court.

You fail to observe the chronological sequence:

-Amanda spent Halloween night mostly alone, having been snubbed by Mez, despite dropping heavy hints.

-Next day Mez got up late went out 4:00 pm to visit friends again, leaving Amanda and Raff to it.

-The pair wandered into town and were evasive about it to police. Amanda even omits it in her Prision Diary.

-Raff originally told police he came home alone about 9:00 and Amanda turned up at 01:00.

-Amanda got a text message from Patrick saying, don't come in. She already knew he was taking on Mez.

-She read his message whilst located near the cottage. She claimed to police she was with Raff when she read the message.

-She replied to Patrick and then deleted it.

-She turned off her phone. Raff's phone became inactive. As Latella says, this was due to being turned off, broken, or some other mecahnical issue with the phone. The networks signals were all strong and normal - as evidenced by other users in the same vicinity as Raff and with the same architecture and building materials as Raff's abode.


- Raff did not turn it back on until 6:00 next morning, but lied to police he slept through until after 10:30.

- Amanda did not turn hers back on until midday - to call Mez' disposed of phone.

-In Raff's original statement to police he said he spoke to his dad at 23:00pm - another lie.

- Raff and Papa Raff made statements to the police they had their evening meal by 8:42 and after washing up there was a leak at the pipes.

-Amanda told police this did not happen until 9:00, 10:00 or 11:00 depending on what version of her 'best truth' you look at.

- She claimed she slept through from after dinner at 23:00 through to 10-ish next day.

-Police discovered someone had downloaded and played grunge with aggressive lyrics (come as you are, fight club, etc) at 5:30-ish. Hellmann's claim this was light relaxing morning music is utterly bonkers.

-Raff reveals Amanda wasn't even faithful to him - being more interested in keeping up her romance with David Johnsrud and sexting him.

So don't give up the course at Police Academy just yet.
So Knox gets a text from Patrik at about 20.40 when she is out and about, then has to get back to Sollecito's in order to open the door to Popovic at 20.40. Persuade Sollecito to participate in a murder so that he turns his phone off at 20.42. Some how get in touch with Guede without using a phone (switched off by then!). Get over to the piazza to be seen by Curatalo at 21.30 then get Kercher's phones dumped by 22.14. Presumably in amongst all this she has to make out with Sollecito, participate in a sex game, steal money, have a row, provoke Guede in to attacking Kercher...

Knox has the most amazing powers persuasion if she can do this in the few minutes available.

Remembering of course until 20.40 Knox thought she was working and Sollecito driving Popovic to pick up a parcel later that evening.

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Old 21st March 2017, 03:00 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's rather connected to their trip into town. You know? The errand they were so evasive about with cops?

Amanda was in Piazza Grimana when she read Patrick's text. No doubt Rudy was also there.

You are right, it's not a row about the bathroom rota. This murder has 'Vengeance' written large all over it.

The clue about what Rudy was doing there can be found in Amanda's early statements to police. She met 'Patrick' in Piazza Grimana and took him to the cottage to have sex with Mez.

What horny 20-year old is going to turn down a party which includes the beautiful Mez, or maybe Amanda - as Rudy keeps telling us it was her he was interested in. So, Rudy was there for the same reason many people go to parties.

It's a puzzle to me why it is such a big puzzle for you.
You don't invite some virtual stranger under the guise of a party that's really a secret murder plot, and then start butchering his friends girlfriend right in front of him and then actually expect him to join in and become the primary aggressor. It's an incoherent non sequitur sequence of events.

The Patrick theory was a police construction. It was a construction based on the phone records, assuming the staged break-in, and the contents of Amanda's text message. It was a theory that, although wrong, was actually coherent. Amanda and Patrick arranged a nefarious meetup, this arrangement was documented through phone logs and text messages, and there were no impossible time constraints since Amanda would have had no other plans in this scenario. But losing Patrick was a double problem for the police, because not only did they lose their suspect, their suspect was also the very one removing their time constraints. With him out of the picture Amanda now thinks she's going to spend the entire evening working, so can't have other plans - an inconvenience the police and prosecution never satisfactorily solved, although they at least quickly realized that premeditation was out which is why it was never part of any of the trials.

It's actually not surprising that you are puzzled by my inability to deal with Rudy's presence vis-a-vis the students involvement. Because it conforms to what I've ultimately recently concluded, which is that neither side is capable of communicating with the other side in any way. We both see ourselves as having the rational view, and the other side as not just wrong, but mentally delusional and suffering from severe cognitive biases preventing them from processing reality. We have no means to collectively agree which side is the one that's actually right, and which side is delusional.

I would tend to agree that the lack of evidence that Hellmann was bribed, and the lack of outrage from the scientific and legal community over Amanda's acquittal, tends to favor our side's sanity.
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:03 PM   #2278
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Of course they cover for each other. What else can they do?

BTW Premeditation can be literally seconds. If you decide to go out to teach your friend a lesson and you grab a kitchen knife on the way there, then that becomes premeditation.

Amanda read her email from Patrick not to come in (sent by him 20:17) which she read circa 20:40 and immediately deleted her reply to him and switched off the phone.

Somewhere along the way either one of the pair grabbed Raff's kitchen knife, as hypothesised by the police, who are crime experts, after all.

It looks like premeditation from here.
This is so silly.

You contradict yourself almost right away. Clearly if they turned off their phones at Raffaele's apartment to evade being tracked to the cottage and they brought weapons with them then the premeditation is not seconds.

Two, almost strangers are not going to cover for each other? Seriously? They would fold like a cheap suit.

Three, still doesn’t address Amanda trying to persuade not one but two almost strangers to kill Meredith. Imagine Amanda sitting with her new boyfriend of just a week watching the sweet romantic comedy Amιlie right after Ms Popovic leaves. How does she even suggest to this boy who hardly speaks her language that he should go back to the cottage and kill her roommate. Personally, I can't see it. I can't imagine her asking or him saying yes. It would take a massive amount of trust for both of them.

Four, they don't know where Meredith is or if/when she might return.
Five, they already have plans to go to Gubbio in the morning.
Six, Raffaele doesn’t know Rudy and Amanda is not known to have said much more then hello to him. And they're not in contact with Rudy. How do they get this almost total stranger to take a very active role in the murder?

I'm sorry Vixen, I think your imagination has run away with you. I don't see it.
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:19 PM   #2279
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It's rather connected to their trip into town. You know? The errand they were so evasive about with cops?

Amanda was in Piazza Grimana when she read Patrick's text. No doubt Rudy was also there.

You are right, it's not a row about the bathroom rota. This murder has 'Vengeance' written large all over it.

The clue about what Rudy was doing there can be found in Amanda's early statements to police. She met 'Patrick' in Piazza Grimana and took him to the cottage to have sex with Mez.

What horny 20-year old is going to turn down a party which includes the beautiful Mez, or maybe Amanda - as Rudy keeps telling us it was her he was interested in. So, Rudy was there for the same reason many people go to parties.

It's a puzzle to me why it is such a big puzzle for you.
So are you saying Curatalo recognised Knox but confused Guede and Sollecito? So Knox was with Guede at 20.40 persuaded him to participate in a murder, rushed back to see Popovic at 20.40 then persuaded Sollecito to participate in a murder so he turned off his phone at 20.42? So just a few seconds?
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:51 PM   #2280
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
So are you saying Curatalo recognised Knox but confused Guede and Sollecito? So Knox was with Guede at 20.40 persuaded him to participate in a murder, rushed back to see Popovic at 20.40 then persuaded Sollecito to participate in a murder so he turned off his phone at 20.42? So just a few seconds?
I'm sorry. I don't care how good the sex might be, but I'm going to get the hell away from my crazy new American girlfriend when she suggests we kill her roommate.
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