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Old 25th February 2017, 10:55 AM   #81
Lukraak_Sisser
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I live in a country where atheism, or at least non-religion is the majority. (Netherlands)

From what I can see from the US, the main effect is that religion is just not important.
Our politicians can be atheist, unmarried, divorced, gay and what have you without this affecting their ability to be elected. In fact, it's never actually a point unless they represent a religious party and even then it's not a big issue for their voters.

Tax exemption for churches still exists because they don't actually make all that much money and all coalition governments tend to need the religious parties and trade that for their support, so essentially most churches survive by state support in a way.
Areas where the majority of people visit sunday mass are considered quaint and backward, but there is no prosecution or anything, just disinterest.
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Old 25th February 2017, 11:36 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
While all of us appreciate a fine "I know you are but what am I" counterargument, you may wish to actually look up the meaning of the words you choose to copy, lest your "counterargument" be shown to be utterly ridiculous.
But alas you seem to believe one sentence answers qualifies as an argument. BTW, I read the court opinions in full including Justice Douglas's dissenting opinion. It is by far the most appropriate. The majority decision amounts to they have always enjoyed this benefit and we don't want to cause a stink. Douglas basically says just 200 years of allowing it doesn't make it justified anymore then school prayer.
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Old 25th February 2017, 11:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
Wherein we are treated to juvenalia of your own coining.
Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But alas you seem to believe one sentence answers qualifies as an argument.
i laughed
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Old 25th February 2017, 12:13 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
i laughed
Is this the depth of your critical thinking skills that you boast about?
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Old 25th February 2017, 12:24 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Is this the depth of your critical thinking skills that you boast about?
well, I certainly am a huge fan of irony.

Thus, when you lit into me for a "one sentence" reply, yet failed to address the fact that the post to which I was replying was not only barely a one sentence post, but was utterly devoid of substance in any event.

And then after I showed it to you, you responded with a one sentence reply!

FANTASTIC!!!
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Old 25th February 2017, 12:28 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, I certainly am a huge fan of irony.

Thus, when you lit into me for a "one sentence" reply, yet failed to address the fact that the post to which I was replying was not only barely a one sentence post, but was utterly devoid of substance in any event.

And then after I showed it to you, you responded with a one sentence reply!

FANTASTIC!!!
When every single post is meant to be ironical it loses its juice.
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Old 25th February 2017, 01:46 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Okay, far be it from me to defend a position I don't personally hold, but the basic idea is this:

Everyone who isn't Saved is going to Hell. Hell is Bad. Therefore I don't want to go to Hell, and neither should you. Because I am a compassionate, loving being, I don't want you to go to Hell, so you should be Saved.

Atheism is the exact opposite of being Saved. Atheists are going to Hell. I don't want anyone to go to Hell, because as I said I am a compassionate and loving being.

Atheists spreading atheism are literally condemning more people to Hell. This is Bad. Therefore they should stop doing that. They should be Saved, so that they personally don't go to Hell and so that they stop causing other people to go to Hell.

Although, as I said, I don't hold this view myself, I fail to see why it's so hard for you to understand.

Just wondering about this in the light of the Royal Commission into child abuse that has featured so many of the Catholic Churches hierarchy and most famously Cardinal Pell.

It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that theists are concerned about my immortal soul and this motivates them to try and convert me. Such compassion, although I believe misguided, is commendable.

There is not much show of compassion among the leadership of the Catholic Church however. It is hard to imagine Cardinal Pell wringing his hands in grief, contemplating the fate of the immortal souls of the abused children, when showing so little concern for them in this life.

I suspect the faithful, although not generally as low in compassion as Pell, are not as motivated as arthwollipot thinks, but are mainly concerned about there own immortal souls.
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Old 25th February 2017, 01:54 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Point out where and more importantly how I am wrong Big Dog. Don't just say my post lacks critical thinking. Address where you claim that I'm wrong. I've been a member of a church for years. I've seen my pastor drive new cars and live in a 5000 square foot home all the while begging for donations.

Did your pastor deliver any sermons about camels and the eye of a needle?
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Old 25th February 2017, 02:03 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I have no problem with most atheists.

It is the fanatical anti-theist/anti-religion folks that give me pause.
In the first place, nobody asked you and in the second place you subscribe to the RCC, the single most scurrilous flavour of christianity.

It is thus difficult to give your claims any credibility.
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Old 25th February 2017, 02:11 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Did your pastor deliver any sermons about camels and the eye of a needle?
Yes he did. All the while asking for money.
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Old 25th February 2017, 02:13 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
In the first place, nobody asked you and in the second place you subscribe to the RCC, the single most scurrilous flavour of christianity.

It is thus difficult to give your claims any credibility.
They have a Pope. That's a pretty big deal right there.
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Old 25th February 2017, 03:02 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just wondering about this in the light of the Royal Commission into child abuse that has featured so many of the Catholic Churches hierarchy and most famously Cardinal Pell.

It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy that theists are concerned about my immortal soul and this motivates them to try and convert me. Such compassion, although I believe misguided, is commendable.

There is not much show of compassion among the leadership of the Catholic Church however. It is hard to imagine Cardinal Pell wringing his hands in grief, contemplating the fate of the immortal souls of the abused children, when showing so little concern for them in this life.

I suspect the faithful, although not generally as low in compassion as Pell, are not as motivated as arthwollipot thinks, but are mainly concerned about there own immortal souls.
The Catholic Church is a corrupt greedy brutal immoral institution. It has caused a tremendous amount of death, destruction and misery from its inception right through to the present.
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Old 25th February 2017, 03:22 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, name absolutely any charity ... The MAKES REVENUE and BENEFITS people who RUN it
[...]
If I understand your petulant demand, then I say ALSAC. That's the fund raising arm of St Jude's Children's Research Hospital. The people who RUN it generate REVENUES and BENEFIT by way of a paycheck.

Please contain your rancor, or should I say RANCOR?
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Old 25th February 2017, 03:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
If I understand your petulant demand, then I say ALSAC. That's the fund raising arm of St Jude's Children's Research Hospital. The people who RUN it generate REVENUES and BENEFIT by way of a paycheck.

Please contain your rancor, or should I say RANCOR?
You literally made the very point I was making.

That is amazing.

Did you somehow fail to read the post to which I was replying?

Magical..
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Old 25th February 2017, 07:35 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am at a loss here I admit. You single me out as being antagonistic and yet I have not told theists they are "delusional" as I recall nor referred to a "Sky Daddy" in my recollection.

I may be wrong but cannot remember doing so.

I may have lapsed in the heat of the moment I admit but I don't think so.
Don't take everything so damn personal. You cannot deny that those terms have been used by people you are agreeing with. While it may or may not be true that you yourself personally have never used those terms, you also have done nothing to call out or rebuke those who do so on a regular basis. Furthermore, there is plenty more to being antagonistic than merely those specific terms, and you have certainly exhibited other behaviours in the past that I consider abusive, masked though they might be in carefully-crafted politeness. That's why I call you out.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I disagree. Both are simply facts. That theists find the comments as insulting is a personal issue.
And then we get those who simply deny that what they are doing is in any way wrong.

You cannot throw an insulting term out and then say it's their fault for being insulted by it. Well... you can, obviously, because you do, but you forfeit all right to any moral high ground by doing so, in my opinion. Though I really don't want to poison the well, I cannot help but draw a direct parallel to the alt-right and those who believe that "free speech" gives them the right to use whatever abusive language they feel like with impunity.

If you start insulting people by using terms like "delusional", "juvenile", "insipid" and "fairy tale", then I do not give a crap which side you are arguing, you are an abusive dick. Simple as that. What? You're offended by that? Your fault, not mine. I'm just stating a fact.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Just wondering about this in the light of the Royal Commission into child abuse that has featured so many of the Catholic Churches hierarchy and most famously Cardinal Pell.
I was, indeed, referring mainly to Protestant evangelicals - since I have more lived experience in that area and know comparatively little about Catholicism.

But it's clear that in at least some cases, abusive priests do not believe that what they did was abusive, and do not understand that what they did has long-term effects. It's not a matter of not caring, it's a matter of not understanding, and when it is explained, denying that they were doing is in any way wrong.
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Old 25th February 2017, 08:12 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
As an atheist, I find it deeply offensive that the god botherers presume to instruct me what it is that I believe. Once that happens I get more than a little irate.

I am sick and tired of "Oh, you are an atheist so you believe <insert bollocks here>". Once that happens, the red mist descends.
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Old 25th February 2017, 08:15 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Don't take everything so damn personal. You cannot deny that those terms have been used by people you are agreeing with. While it may or may not be true that you yourself personally have never used those terms, you also have done nothing to call out or rebuke those who do so on a regular basis. Furthermore, there is plenty more to being antagonistic than merely those specific terms, and you have certainly exhibited other behaviours in the past that I consider abusive, masked though they might be in carefully-crafted politeness. That's why I call you out.

And then we get those who simply deny that what they are doing is in any way wrong.

You cannot throw an insulting term out and then say it's their fault for being insulted by it. Well... you can, obviously, because you do, but you forfeit all right to any moral high ground by doing so, in my opinion. Though I really don't want to poison the well, I cannot help but draw a direct parallel to the alt-right and those who believe that "free speech" gives them the right to use whatever abusive language they feel like with impunity.

If you start insulting people by using terms like "delusional", "juvenile", "insipid" and "fairy tale", then I do not give a crap which side you are arguing, you are an abusive dick. Simple as that. What? You're offended by that? Your fault, not mine. I'm just stating a fact.

I was, indeed, referring mainly to Protestant evangelicals - since I have more lived experience in that area and know comparatively little about Catholicism.

But it's clear that in at least some cases, abusive priests do not believe that what they did was abusive, and do not understand that what they did has long-term effects. It's not a matter of not caring, it's a matter of not understanding, and when it is explained, denying that they were doing is in any way wrong.
You're right. I don't think there is anything wrong with describing things accurately.

Religions ARE mythologies. This is the textbook definition of fairy tale and belief in non-existent beings is delusional. That you believe it is better to humor their condition just shows that you suffer foolishness more then me.
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Old 25th February 2017, 08:17 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I am at a loss here I admit. You single me out as being antagonistic and yet I have not told theists they are "delusional" as I recall nor referred to a "Sky Daddy" in my recollection.

I may be wrong but cannot remember doing so.

I may have lapsed in the heat of the moment I admit but I don't think so.
I shall vicariously help you out. It's a magic sky daddy who lives in a cloud.

Do you consider that an unfair characterisation? Good luck with that because that is exactly what is written in the holey babble.
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Old 25th February 2017, 10:09 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As an atheist, I find it deeply offensive that the god botherers presume to instruct me what it is that I believe. Once that happens I get more than a little irate.

I am sick and tired of "Oh, you are an atheist so you believe <insert bollocks here>". Once that happens, the red mist descends.
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I shall vicariously help you out. It's a magic sky daddy who lives in a cloud.

Do you consider that an unfair characterisation? Good luck with that because that is exactly what is written in the holey babble.
Hee hee!

You rarely see this level of hypocrisy, unless of course you are dealing with a true unbeliever and adherent to the church of the anti-theist.

Fantastic.

Pretty good example of the effect of atheism tho,
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Old 26th February 2017, 02:10 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
As an atheist, I find it deeply offensive that the god botherers presume to instruct me what it is that I believe. Once that happens I get more than a little irate.

I am sick and tired of "Oh, you are an atheist so you believe <insert bollocks here>". Once that happens, the red mist descends.
Oh yes, it really really annoys me when someone tells me what I believe. I completely agree with you there.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You're right. I don't think there is anything wrong with describing things accurately.

Religions ARE mythologies. This is the textbook definition of fairy tale and belief in non-existent beings is delusional. That you believe it is better to humor their condition just shows that you suffer foolishness more then me.
Oh look. There it is. I guess it's not just theists who do that.
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Old 26th February 2017, 05:45 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh yes, it really really annoys me when someone tells me what I believe. I completely agree with you there.

Oh look. There it is. I guess it's not just theists who do that.
More nonsense. I never say what others believe. Gods ARE mythologies are they not? If they are not, where is the credible evidence? A theist by definition is a believer of God or gods. So suggesting that theists believe in fairy tales hits pretty close to the mark don't you think?
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Old 26th February 2017, 06:19 AM   #102
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One thing is calling out nonsense plain and simple on, gee, a skeptical forum, and quite another direct interpersonal conversation under no defined realm of discourse whatsoever. Here, the field of play is clear; in normal situations it is far less circumscribed. On ISF, "Sky Daddy," "fairy tale," and "clueless nonsense" are all A-OK as adjectives for gods and myths. The only caveat would be that myth can be instructive when taken as such, and provides a useful track record of conceptual and moral evolution, one which is intimately intertwined with secular humanism. However, in any literal sense, it is gobbledygook. And freaking dangerous when taken too seriously; heads roll.
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Old 26th February 2017, 06:45 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
...the church of the anti-theist.
No such animal. (I realize I have used figurative language; deal with it.)
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Old 26th February 2017, 07:28 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Peregrinus View Post
No such animal. (I realize I have used figurative language; deal with it.)
Was that a metaphor? Or an allegory? Or literal? How can one tell?
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Old 26th February 2017, 07:36 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Was that a metaphor? Or an allegory? Or literal? How can one tell?
...ask the closest priest.
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:04 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...ask the closest priest.
As if they would know.
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:09 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
"Sorry, that excuse expires after one use per conversation."
I know you're having fun being clever, but I'm trying to make a serious point here. Atheists really do act insufferably smug a lot. You seem to be trying to reinforce that negative impression on purpose.
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:17 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
As if they would know.
Well, we have been told that "the magisterium" is the arbiter of what is, and is not metaphorical...
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:18 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know you're having fun being clever, but I'm trying to make a serious point here. Atheists really do act insufferably smug a lot. You seem to be trying to reinforce that negative impression on purpose.
How does facile generalization advance your argument?
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:45 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Well, we have been told that "the magisterium" is the arbiter of what is, and is not metaphorical...
But it seems to be different depending on which one you talk to. Also, what makes anyone believe that a priest today would understand what an unknown author intended in a dead language written thousands of years ago? A story which has gone through many translation.

For example, the Christian church says that Mother Mary was a virgin. Yet the ancient text use a world that means young girl or virgin. These guys really don't like sex.
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Old 26th February 2017, 08:48 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
How does facile generalization advance your argument?
You're begging the question.
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Old 26th February 2017, 09:02 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
But it seems to be different depending on which one you talk to. Also, what makes anyone believe that a priest today would understand what an unknown author intended in a dead language written thousands of years ago? A story which has gone through many translation.

For example, the Christian church says that Mother Mary was a virgin. Yet the ancient text use a world that means young girl or virgin. These guys really don't like sex.
That is exactly the point I have been trying to make in this and other threads.

The "that part is metaphor" dodge is just an "acceptable" way to move the goalposts.
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Old 26th February 2017, 09:03 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're begging the question.
I am not sure what you mean. Might you elucidate?
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Old 26th February 2017, 09:41 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
One thing is calling out nonsense plain and simple on, gee, a skeptical forum, and quite another direct interpersonal conversation under no defined realm of discourse whatsoever. Here, the field of play is clear; in normal situations it is far less circumscribed. On ISF, "Sky Daddy," "fairy tale," and "clueless nonsense" are all A-OK as adjectives for gods and myths. The only caveat would be that myth can be instructive when taken as such, and provides a useful track record of conceptual and moral evolution, one which is intimately intertwined with secular humanism. However, in any literal sense, it is gobbledygook. And freaking dangerous when taken too seriously; heads roll.
That is ridiculous. The suggestion that the discourse on iskep is more juvenile than in ordinary circumstances is bizarre.

This site is not an echo chamber, and one would think that anyone interested in critical thinking would be quick to reprimand people whose ability to address an issue is reduced to school yard taunts like "Sky daddy."
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Old 26th February 2017, 09:47 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I am not sure what you mean. Might you elucidate?
Never mind.

Generalizations are (generally) useful. I don't think mine is facile. But I may have a sampling bias. The vast majority of my exposure to atheists as such is here on these fora. And the general impression I have formed over several years is that among themselves, atheists tend towards insufferable smugness as a general rule.

I've seen similar things in other subcultures I am or have been involved with. Evangelical Christians, for example. And road cyclists.

I'm not trying to advance an argument. I'm saying that this is one of the effects of atheism that I have observed.
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Old 26th February 2017, 09:55 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Never mind.

Generalizations are (generally) useful. I don't think mine is facile. But I may have a sampling bias. The vast majority of my exposure to atheists as such is here on these fora. And the general impression I have formed over several years is that among themselves, atheists tend towards insufferable smugness as a general rule.

I've seen similar things in other subcultures I am or have been involved with. Evangelical Christians, for example. And road cyclists.

I'm not trying to advance an argument. I'm saying that this is one of the effects of atheism that I have observed.
TY.
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Old 26th February 2017, 10:12 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I know you're having fun being clever, but I'm trying to make a serious point here. Atheists really do act insufferably smug a lot. You seem to be trying to reinforce that negative impression on purpose.

I would argue that what you are observing is characteristic of fora, not of atheists per se, and that you are indulging in confirmation bias. However, your comments could lend themselves to testing. If someone were to take a number of posts from a thread outside of R&P, remove the posters' names, and have you rate them on a smugness scale, would it correlate with their religious beliefs?
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Old 26th February 2017, 10:32 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
That is exactly the point I have been trying to make in this and other threads.

The "that part is metaphor" dodge is just an "acceptable" way to move the goalposts.
Yes it is. But they aren't moving the goalposts for us. They are moving the posts for themselves. Either science or morality has changed to the point that a literal translation is just not acceptable. What I find interesting is how anyone can believe let alone 'know' what Jesus said, let alone meant.

Memories get twisted over time and rarely stay static. It's very very likely the story of Moses was at a minimum a massive exaggeration or just a total fraud and Genesis is supposed to predate that. So is it reasonable to believe that texts that were written years, decades even centuries earlier are likely to be even remotely accurate? Ever play the game of telephone in school where the first person tells a story to a second and the second tells the story to a third and so on and after the story makes it through the class the story is not remotely like it was originally.

Now consider the Gospels. The earliest Gospel believed to be written down was Mark and that didn't happen until 35 years after the crucifixion and it's unknown who that author was. In fact, no one has a clue who wrote any of the Gospels. The evidence that Jesus lived is not supported by any contemporary sources at the time. The only thing that even remotely is contemporary is Josephus who repeats a story about an itinerant rabbi of the time. But even that was written for decades. Now I do believe that there was a historical Jesus. I just think there is no good reason to believe any of the stories about this person.

There's a great scholarly book about early Christianity and it doesn't remotely resemble how Christianity is practiced by any sect today. Also many Christian sects weren't monotheistic. Some were anti-Jewish. Some were more just an evolution of Judaism.
The book is called 'Lost Christianites, the faiths we never knew'. I recommend it if you want to learn more.
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Old 26th February 2017, 10:33 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I would argue that what you are observing is characteristic of fora, not of atheists per se, and that you are indulging in confirmation bias. However, your comments could lend themselves to testing. If someone were to take a number of posts from a thread outside of R&P, remove the posters' names, and have you rate them on a smugness scale, would it correlate with their religious beliefs?
I've been on other fora where it's not a notable characteristic associated with a particular viewpoint. I've also observed it in other social settings besides fora.
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Old 26th February 2017, 10:39 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
I would argue that what you are observing is characteristic of fora, not of atheists per se, and that you are indulging in confirmation bias. However, your comments could lend themselves to testing. If someone were to take a number of posts from a thread outside of R&P, remove the posters' names, and have you rate them on a smugness scale, would it correlate with their religious beliefs?
I am certain that test would not be useful as one could not normalize for reaction posts, i.e.:

Anti-theist: Sky Daddy fairy book! Har.
appreciative gaggle of anti-theists: HAR HAR! Good original post!
Theist: people who use Sky daddy sound unintelligent to anyone, like me, who graduated from Eighth Grade.
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