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Old 28th February 2017, 01:55 PM   #241
Thor 2
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Slow clap... say I gotta say that was a HECK of an attempt to change the subject!

lolz, c'mon it is not going that bad in here for the atheists!

The subject matter is The Effects of Atheism so looking at the flip is quite legitimate. Your continued indulgence in trying to define atheism as a belief system is not and getting somewhat tedious.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:57 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
anti-theism, anti-religion is absolutely a belief system, that causes people to brag about their "the motivation of trying to get theists to toss belief,' and brag about their so-called successes in doing so.

pros∑e∑lyt∑ize
ˈpršs(ə)ləˌtīz/
verb: convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.

Hmmm, seems like it is on all fours
As usual, 'The Big Dog' has consistently failed to support his own claims.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:57 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, I get that friend, you see I had already mentioned that the Criticism of religion came from one place, and then you asked me another whole question, A DIFFERENT QUESTION, ya see, and I linked to another website to address that question.

So, two answers, two links.

And here i thought i was being generous. Oh well... ya didn't read the earlier link and ya ain't gonna read the new, so...
OK, so to be clear, since you cannot show a quote that a belief of atheism is to "criticize religion" was a doctrine from your cites, it is, in fact, pulled from your arse.

Thank you for playing.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:59 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
sounds like a belief system, don't it?

Of course it does.
No. No, it does not; not to a person with even minimal goodwill and vocabulary facility.

There is no "atheist creed".

There is no "atheist confession".

There is no "atheist agenda".

And you have yet to demonstrate anything that even resembles "atheist prosetylization".
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:01 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
criticizing religions.
That is, in fact, a characteristic of "religions"...criticizing other religions.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:03 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Oh, good, so you read the part where he defines atheism as a lack of belief, not a belief system? How about the bit where he calls claims like yours "daft"?


Eta: to make your error even more obvious, this is a quote from your source on atheism: "All humans (and animals, and everything else) are*atheist*until they first learn about the idea of god(s), and come to believe in at least one of them."
Are you still claiming that dogs, trees, babies, rocks, and everything else share a belief system?
It's that whole gnats/camels thing, all over again.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:05 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
OK, so to be clear, since you cannot show a quote that a belief of atheism is to "criticize religion" was a doctrine from your cites, it is, in fact, pulled from your arse.

Thank you for playing.
Oh dear, you see people can actually see the links I posted and actually can read the links i posted and can actually judge your comment based on the language of the links that I posted.

So the link I posted says, inter alia, this:

Quote:
Now in its 51st year, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism. Over the last fifty years, American Atheists has:

Fought fervently to defend the separation of religion from government
Appeared in all forms of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
As I explained, and yet you posted...well... that.

(as if there was ever a chance you were going to seriously discuss this matter... it is to laugh)
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:08 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
No. No, it does not; not to a person with even minimal goodwill and vocabulary facility.

There is no "atheist creed".

There is no "atheist confession".

There is no "atheist agenda".

And you have yet to demonstrate anything that even resembles "atheist prosetylization".
Uh oh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atheist_Agenda

Is there a Jewish creed or a Muslim confession? Really don't know.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:09 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, you see people can actually see the links I posted and actually can read the links i posted and can actually judge your comment based on the language of the links that I posted.

So the link I posted says, inter alia, this:



As I explained, and yet you posted...well... that.

(as if there was ever a chance you were going to seriously discuss this matter... it is to laugh)
Quote:
Now in its 51st year, American Atheists is dedicated to working for the civil rights of atheists, promoting separation of state and church, and providing information about atheism. Over the last fifty years, American Atheists has:

Fought fervently to defend the separation of religion from government
Appeared in all forms of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology
You may choose to reread. American Atheists (an organization) may have criticized religions, but that is quite different from "criticizing religion is a belief of atheism."

You lose.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:12 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh oh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atheist_Agenda

Is there a Jewish creed or a Muslim confession? Really don't know.
That is comically inept argumentation, even for you. Your link is to a wiki about organization named "The Atheist Agenda"; it is not about an "atheist agenda".

Definite and indefinite articles, capitalization, and all that.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:16 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
ahhh, it is the mostly part that is the catch, ain't it?
Ordinarily I use atheists to describe people who are get along types, and want to be left alone as you call it; while the more evangelical types I refer to as anti-theists, or anti-religionists.

but i am cool like that, and as we see not all 'atheists" are not so chill.
Not really.
Throwing in a little critical thinking and a couple of beers fills out the agenda.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:20 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
You may choose to reread. American Atheists (an organization) may have criticized religions, but that is quite different from "criticizing religion is a belief of atheism."

You lose.
Golly gee, if you say so.

Didn't know that someone had appointed an anti-theist as judge, jury and executioner.

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Old 28th February 2017, 02:23 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
That is comically inept argumentation, even for you. Your link is to a wiki about organization named "The Atheist Agenda"; it is not about an "atheist agenda".

Definite and indefinite articles, capitalization, and all that.
but you wrote "There is no "atheist agenda".

And there is The Atheist Agenda. Did you mean to write something different?
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:24 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Not really.
Throwing in a little critical thinking and a couple of beers fills out the agenda.
Uh oh, you are going to be hearing from Slowvehicle in just a minute.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:24 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Oh dear, you see people can actually see the links I posted and actually can read the links i posted and can actually judge your comment based on the language of the links that I posted.

So the link I posted says, inter alia, this:

" Appeared in all forms of media to defend our positions and criticisms of religion and mythology "

As I explained, and yet you posted...well... that.

(as if there was ever a chance you were going to seriously discuss this matter... it is to laugh)
Most of the criticisms of religion and mythology are related to the religious absolutely failing, miserably failing, to mind their own damn business.

If the theists would simply keep it in their own pants and stopping wagging it around at the rest of us, the criticism would be greatly reduces.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:27 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Uh oh, you are going to be hearing from Slowvehicle in just a minute.
Leave us alone, think things through, have a beer.

I think this is somewhat different than the alleged atheist agenda that you are trying to fear-monger up.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:32 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The subject matter is The Effects of Atheism so looking at the flip is quite legitimate. Your continued indulgence in trying to define atheism as a belief system is not and getting somewhat tedious.
Perhaps if it was "The Effects of Atheists" it would be clearer to some theists that it's atheists that have beliefs (except for god beliefs) and not atheism. People that don't have any god beliefs are much more than just being atheists.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:33 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Leave us alone, think things through, have a beer.

I think this is somewhat different than the alleged atheist agenda that you are trying to fear-monger up.
I am not trying to fear monger anything up, as you well know.

Unfortunately, I am CERTAIN that the Freedom from Religion Foundation would not agree with your "groovy" agenda set forth above, but I encourage you to share it with them.

God Speed.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:35 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
but you wrote "There is no "atheist agenda".

And there is The Atheist Agenda. Did you mean to write something different?
How very humorous.

It's that gnats/camels thing again. I realize that nuance is invisible to you when it goes against you, but, even for you, this is a sophomoric reach.

Read again.

In a tryptich of parallelism, I wrote that there was no "atheist agenda"--note the scare quotes--which means (of course, that a-theism, not being a credal, confessional belief system (as are, for instance, the bewildering array of alternate sectual orientations of the xians and alt.xians); in other words, there is no agenda that atheists share (harking back to the silliness on anther thread about the "gay agenda".

Your link, as you are well aware, does not link to an agenda that is atheist, but to a wiki (a wiki, I might add, that is self-described as having "multiple issues'; and perhaps falling short of certain notability guidelines, as well as being an unlinked "orphan") about an organization that styles itself "The Atheist Agenda"; nor did you go further to see if the group, itself pretends to have published "an agenda" intended to be binding upon all atheists.

"Grape Nuts"
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:38 PM   #260
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Potato.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:39 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yes there were. For example, religion - which is a deeply and sincerely held belief - was called a "fairy tale" at least once. That is insulting, no matter what kind of polish you put on it. You can't throw the blame on the people you are insulting for being offended.

This is a common tactic of both atheists and the alt-right. I call you an a-hole, you are offended. I claim that I wasn't being offensive, I was just stating a fact, and it's your fault for being a delicate little snowflake.

Similarly, if you go around calling religious people "delusional" and dismissing their deeply-held beliefs as "fairy tales" and their revered deity as a "sky daddy", you are the one being offensive. You are the one dispensing the insults. That they are offended by your behaviour is perfectly reasonable.

That's the name-calling I was referring to earlier.
If not fairy tale then what? Myth? Myth is probably more accurate as it covers belief in other gods such as Zeus, Odin, Arawn etc. Fairy tale may seem too specific but things are described as fairy tales that have other supernatural being or events that aren't fairy related.

Still 'myth' seems more accurate.

I suspect people will choose to find that offensive as well - accurate though it is by any, 'nonspecialist treatment' application of logic.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:39 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Potato.
Only if you dics your own...
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:41 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
How very humorous.
Yes indeed I did find it humorous! You said there wasn't one, and BANG! there it was. There is also a facebook site, a twitter, probably something on the instagrams, and of course a conservapedia article on it too!

That being said, the real point was the Jewish Creed and the Muslim Confession, and/or vice versa, which you have not mentioned which is weird....
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:42 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am not trying to fear monger anything up, as you well know.

Unfortunately, I am CERTAIN that the Freedom from Religion Foundation would not agree with your "groovy" agenda set forth above, but I encourage you to share it with them.

God Speed.
I still have no idea who that is and I still do not care and I am still an atheist.

What would be most pleasant would be if you told me what it is you actually claim that I believe. So far, I have not the foggiest because you are not saying. There is no way for me to tell.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:46 PM   #265
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I'd like to know what beliefs atheism has . . .

Those that claim atheism has beliefs should be able to provide such information.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:47 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
If not fairy tale then what? Myth? Myth is probably more accurate as it covers belief in other gods such as Zeus, Odin, Arawn etc. Fairy tale may seem too specific but things are described as fairy tales that have other supernatural being or events that aren't fairy related.

Still 'myth' seems more accurate.

I suspect people will choose to find that offensive as well - accurate though it is by any, 'nonspecialist treatment' application of logic.
Myth seems loaded and inimical to serious discussion.

But if your mind is made up, I will certainly leave you alone.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:49 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I'd like to know what beliefs atheism has . . .

Those that claim atheism is a belief system should be able to provide such information.
I linked to a bunch of them above, did you not agree with them?
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:50 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yes indeed I did find it humorous! You said there wasn't one, and BANG! there it was. There is also a facebook site, a twitter, probably something on the instagrams, and of course a conservapedia article on it too!
I see. You are going to triple down, and pretend to be ignorant of the way the language is used.

Once more: your link is a wiki about "The 'Atheist Agenda' ", not (as any even marginally skilled or honest reading would detect) a link to "an agenda" held by atheists.

But, by all means, do feel free to persist in distortion and dishonesty.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
That being said, the real point was the Jewish Creed and the Muslim Confession, and/or vice versa, which you have not mentioned which is weird....
Being no more an observant Jew or a practitioner of Islam than I am an xian, an alt.xain, or a paulinian, it is a mystery what points you think you are scoring, here. Suppose you deign to explain, in a way that is not a derail.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:58 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
I see. You are going to triple down, and pretend to be ignorant of the way the language is used.

Once more: your link is a wiki about "The 'Atheist Agenda' ", not (as any even marginally skilled or honest reading would detect) a link to "an agenda" held by atheists.

But, by all means, do feel free to persist in distortion and dishonesty.

Being no more an observant Jew or a practitioner of Islam than I am an xian, an alt.xain, or a paulinian, it is a mystery what points you think you are scoring, here. Suppose you deign to explain, in a way that is not a derail.
Did you really just accuse me of distortion and dishonesty? SMFH

If you can't figure out what the lack of a Jewish creed or a Muslim confession does to destroy your earlier claim, you'll forgive me if I politely suggest that you figure it out yourself.
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:59 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I linked to a bunch of them above, did you not agree with them?
No you didn't, and no I don't.

You linked to the beliefs of some people that are atheists. You didn't link to anything that was a belief of atheism.

The beliefs of some atheists aren't the beliefs of all atheists. Atheism per se is not having god beliefs, it isn't about having beliefs about theism and theists.

Does not believing in all god beliefs make you an atheist?
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:00 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I am not trying to fear monger anything up, as you well know.

Unfortunately, I am CERTAIN that the Freedom from Religion Foundation would not agree with your "groovy" agenda set forth above, but I encourage you to share it with them.

God Speed.
Actually, I don't.
Sticking a scary sounding label on a non-existent issue walks, smells, and quacks like fear-mongering.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:08 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
The beliefs of some atheists aren't the beliefs of all atheists. Atheism per se is not having god beliefs, it isn't about having beliefs about theism and theists.

Does not believing in all god beliefs make you an atheist?
Well certainly feel free to list any of those beliefs with which you do not agree
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:09 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by fishbob View Post
Actually, I don't.
Sticking a scary sounding label on a non-existent issue walks, smells, and quacks like fear-mongering.
what label would that be??

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Old 28th February 2017, 03:13 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well certainly feel free to list any of those beliefs with which you do not agree
There's no reason I should. They're the beliefs of some atheists and whether I agree with them or not is moot. They aren't the beliefs of all atheists or atheism. Atheism doesn't require any beliefs, it merely requires lack of god beliefs. If you don't agree please provide a single belief of atheism (not atheists).

Repeat - "Does not believing in all god beliefs make you an atheist?"
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Last edited by ynot; 28th February 2017 at 03:20 PM.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:21 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
There's no reason I should. They're the beliefs of some atheists and whether I agree with them or not is moot. They aren't the beliefs of all atheists or atheism. Atheism doesn't require any beliefs, it merely requires lack of god beliefs.

Repeat - "Does not believing in all god beliefs make you an atheist?"
Huh... indulge me for a second, you won't address the list I gave you, but you repeat your question to me?

that seems a bit.... inconsistent.... don't it.

Oh well, my answer is:

POTATO

see i am learning stuff from the anti-theists!
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:27 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Huh... indulge me for a second, you won't address the list I gave you, but you repeat your question to me?

that seems a bit.... inconsistent.... don't it.

Oh well, my answer is:

POTATO

see i am learning stuff from the anti-theists!
I addressed your "list" by negating it with explanation.

Feel free to address my question by negating it with explanation.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:39 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I do similar but havenít considered asking them not to use their comfort/confirmation words. Iíll try it but donít think they would be capable of doing so. Iím surprised that you say they can and have done so with you.
Rough transcript of just such a conversation: "Right. Er I believe there's a being who lives er in a place that isn't here or er space or...er OK a special place and...it sounds really silly if I can't use 'god' 'heaven' etc. OK I'll try again.. I believe, when you die your soul..."

Me: "Can't use 'soul' - explain what you mean by it"

"OK, when you die a bit of you, your consciousness, travels to a place where it joins the other consciousnesses...it sounds all science fantasy now! I guess I'd just like to think that there's something after death rather than nothing"

Usually goes something like that. Sometimes with a realisation that people actually have no idea what god or heaven mean and have never actually stopped to think what they actually mean when they use those terms. I have had some resort to typical cartooney versions of god and heaven and then admit it all sounds rather silly when you have to explain it in any detail.

Final reactions tend to be annoyance (though I strive to maintain a calm inquisitive tone throughout) frustration, puzzlement and sometimes a dawning curiosity that they can't actually explain their beliefs without shortcut words that they then can't explain the meaning of. I haven't done it many times. A handful at most but it is really effective - fear of death being the end seems at the root for most believers.

This is in Britain mind where people mark themselves as Church of England more out of tradition and habit than regular church attendance.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:44 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
I addressed your "list" by negating it with explanation.

Feel free to address my question by negating it with explanation.
There's no reason I should. They're the beliefs of some other theists and whether I agree with them or not is moot. They aren't the beliefs of all theists or theism. Theism doesn't require all beliefs, it merely requires god beliefs.

How did I do?
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:47 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Did you really just accuse me of distortion and dishonesty? SMFH[
Not only did I "accuse" you of both distortion and dishonesty; I pointed out where you were stooping to such.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If you can't figure out what the lack of a Jewish creed or a Muslim confession does to destroy your earlier claim, you'll forgive me if I politely suggest that you figure it out yourself.
Given that you insist on derail, consider:

The central credal expression of Judaism is the Shemma:
שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל ה' אֱלֹהֵינוּ ה' אֶחָד‎.

The central credal expression of Islam is the Shahada:
لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

Each is taken by practitioners, as an expression of a unifying truth, or dogma; it is difficult to consider how one might reject (for instance) the Shemma and still consider oneself an observant Jew.

xians and alt.xians have their creeds by the sackful, also--consider the single word that led to the split between the eastern and the western confessions.

(BTW, how, in BDG-ese, does the existence of, and the importance of, the Shemma and the Shahada constitute a "lack" of a Jewish or Islamic creed?)

Despite your orphan wiki stub, there is no such central expression, no shared dogma, no doxa, among atheists. We may share many interests, but the common thread is a lack of belief in 'god'; in "a 'god' "; nor in any 'gods'.

As has been pointed out to you, often, atheism (look at the word: a-theos) is not a "belief system', nor a "religion". It is simply a lack of adoption of the belief in 'god'; nor yet in any of the baggage of the 'god'-concept. Nor do your misstatements change that.
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Old 28th February 2017, 03:52 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
Usually goes something like that. Sometimes with a realisation that people actually have no idea what god or heaven mean and have never actually stopped to think what they actually mean when they use those terms. I have had some resort to typical cartooney versions of god and heaven and then admit it all sounds rather silly when you have to explain it in any detail.

Final reactions tend to be annoyance (though I strive to maintain a calm inquisitive tone throughout) frustration, puzzlement and sometimes a dawning curiosity that they can't actually explain their beliefs without shortcut words that they then can't explain the meaning of. I haven't done it many times. A handful at most but it is really effective - fear of death being the end seems at the root for most believers.
Well that is because you are intentionally impeding communication, because words mean things that people understand without having to go and define them. it is a parlor trick.

Ask them to explain how a car works and tell them they can't use the words car, steering wheel and engine, and I am certain that you will find frustration, puzzlement and sometimes a dawning curiosity that they can't actually explain how they drive without "shortcut" words, despite your calm inquisitive tone.

How do you drive, he asked calmly...
well first you open the car door...
can't use "car" he said tonily...
Well first you use a the key to open the auto's door...
can't use auto either...
**** this, he said dawningly.
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