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Old 28th February 2017, 03:54 PM   #281
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Myth seems loaded and inimical to serious discussion.

But if your mind is made up, I will certainly leave you alone.
To someone who doesn't believe 'myth' is not insulting. We see no difference between stories about Thor (in the Edda not the Marvel universe) and stories about Jesus in the Bible. Well the Thor stories are better and less contradictory but other than that...

Is it insulting to pagans that we talk about the myths they believe / believed?

What is the difference between one belief system and another (other than which side you are on) that one is described as a myth but the other (indistinguishable in nature, just in popularity at a point in time) cannot be without it being termed an insult?
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:02 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
To someone who doesn't believe 'myth' is not insulting. We see no difference between stories about Thor (in the Edda not the Marvel universe) and stories about Jesus in the Bible. Well the Thor stories are better and less contradictory but other than that...

Is it insulting to pagans that we talk about the myths they believe / believed?

What is the difference between one belief system and another (other than which side you are on) that one is described as a myth but the other (indistinguishable in nature, just in popularity at a point in time) cannot be without it being termed an insult?
Simple, if the discussion is whether the story is accurate or not, calling it a myth is not going to advance the discussion.

If someone who told me that they believed in the story of Thor and asked me not to call it a myth, I would honor their request
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:06 PM   #283
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well that is because you are intentionally impeding communication, because words mean things that people understand without having to go and define them. it is a parlor trick.

Ask them to explain how a car works and tell them they can't use the words car, steering wheel and engine, and I am certain that you will find frustration, puzzlement and sometimes a dawning curiosity that they can't actually explain how they drive without "shortcut" words, despite your calm inquisitive tone.

How do you drive, he asked calmly...
well first you open the car door...
can't use "car" he said tonily...
Well first you use a the key to open the auto's door...
can't use auto either...
**** this, he said dawningly.
A carriage on wheels powered by using the energy from ignited, expanding gas to push levers that turn a shaft connected to discs that support the vehicle, turning those discs and thus propelling the vehicle forward. The front discs, or wheels, are hinged so they can turn to point in the desired direction and thus steer the vehicle. We turn them via a geared shaft that connects to them and we top that with a circular construction for our hands to grip and use to turn the shaft although early vehicles actually used levers.

Easy.

Wasn't sure if 'wheel' was banned as well as 'steering wheel' else it would have been easier.

Real things can be described easily with other words else dictionaries would not work...

ETA some people can describe what they think heaven etc is without using religious terminology, they just realise how silly it sounds when they use 'normal' words. It's not like I 'ban' loads, usually just god, heaven and soul is enough.

Last edited by Ethan Thane Athen; 28th February 2017 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:13 PM   #284
Ethan Thane Athen
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Oops realised I did use 'wheels' at the beginning. I can replace it with a definition of wheel if you like - it is explained later but I'm sure I could get a better one if I spent even a few moments thinking about it.

It's not that explaining what people think god or heaven is is hard using normal language, it's that it exposes that those words are lazy terms either for concepts people haven't actually thought through or that they realise sound silly when they have to actually think about and explain them.

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Old 28th February 2017, 04:16 PM   #285
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
A carriage on wheels powered by using the energy from ignited, expanding gas to push levers that turn a shaft connected to circular discs that support the vehicle, turning those discs and thus propelling the vehicle forward. The front discs, or wheels, are hinged so they can turn to point in the desired direction and thus steer the vehicle. We turn them via a geared shaft that connects to them and we top that with a circular construction for our hands to grip and use to the shaft although early vehicles actually used levers.

Easy.

Wasn't sure if 'wheel' was banned as well as 'steering wheel' else it would have been easier.

Real things can be described easily with other words else dictionaries would not work...
can't use carriage....

You know that there is a difference between writing something and speaking extemporaneously, of course you do,

I believe in an almighty creator who exists in an abode of eternal Bliss

I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord,
who was conceived by the manifestation of the creators' will on earth,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into the abode of eternal bliss,
he is seated at the right hand of the creator whom I have so recently mentioned,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the manifestation of the creator's will
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

(i was going to post it in Latin, but that would be frowned on)
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:20 PM   #286
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My question was . .
Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Does not believing in all god beliefs make you an atheist?
Not sure if the reply is meant to be an answer, negation, or a dodge thinnly disguised as a pathetic attempt at sarcastic humor . . .
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There's no reason I should.
“Should” what? How is this related to my question?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
They're the beliefs of some other theists and whether I agree with them or not is moot.
Not moot to my question. Whether or not you agree with all god beliefs is relevant and important to my question. If you don’t believe in all gods does that make you an atheist?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
They aren't the beliefs of all theists or theism. Theism doesn't require all beliefs, it merely requires god beliefs.
Belief in a god or gods is the requirement of theism and therefore all theists. But my question didn’t ask what makes you a theist, it asked whether not believing in all gods would make you an atheist. Care to answer that question? (I suspect not)

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
How did I do?
Depends what you were trying to “do”. If you were trying to address the question with an actual answer or negation with valid reason then you did poorly. But I suspect you were trying to do something more disingenuous so you may have done okay in that regard. You and others can be the judge. I couldn’t care less either way.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:23 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
My question was . .


Not sure if the reply is meant to be an answer, negation, or a dodge thinnly disguised as a pathetic attempt at sarcastic humor . . .

ďShouldĒ what? How is this related to my question?


Not moot to my question. Whether or not you agree with all god beliefs is relevant and important to my question. If you donít agree with all god beliefs does that make you an atheist?


Belief in a god or gods is the requirement of theism and therefore all theists. But my question didnít ask what makes you a theist, it asked whether not believing in all gods would make you an atheist. Care to answer that question? (I suspect not)


Depends what you were trying to ďdoĒ. If you were trying to address the question with an actual answer or negation with valid reason then you did poorly. But I suspect you were trying to do something more disingenuous so you may have done okay in that regard. You and others can be the judge. I couldnít care less either way.
Actually i flat out copied your "negation" of my simple question and changed the words. sauce/goose/gander
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:33 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
There's no reason I should. They're the beliefs of some other theists and whether I agree with them or not is moot. They aren't the beliefs of all theists or theism. Theism doesn't require all beliefs, it merely requires god beliefs.

How did I do?
You did fine.

Theists believe in god(s).
Atheists do not believe in god(s).

No further belief / disbelief is required or necessary for the labels of theist / atheist.

Glad you agree (finally!).

Now, Christianity, Islam, Judaism (as examples) are theistic religions that have whole sets of additional beliefs (aka 'belief system').

Buddhism (as an example) is an atheistic religion that has a whole set of additional beliefs (aka 'belief system')

Again, welcome on board.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:36 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If someone who told me that they believed in the story of Thor and asked me not to call it a myth, I would honor their request
Yet you're happy to call atheists believers when they ask you not to. It seems your "niceness" is selective.

I'd ask them to explain why they believed in the story and why it shouldn't be called a myth. I'd also explain that I didn't believe in the story and therefore it's appropriate for me to call it a myth. Why is calling a story a myth when you believe it is any more insulting than being asked/expected not to appropriately call it a myth?
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:39 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Actually i flat out copied your "negation" of my simple question and changed the words. sauce/goose/gander
Well DOH!
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:41 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Yet you're happy to call atheists believers when they ask you not to. It seems your "niceness" is selective.
I was asked not to? weird
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:45 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was asked not to? weird
"Asked" by inference.

And that should have been "honor" not "niceness".
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:49 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
"Asked" by inference.

And that should have been "honor" not "niceness".
Well that would perhaps suggest that having a belief is a bad thing. Certainly you have beliefs.

I believe that I make the best damn Chili in cook county.

See, what do you believe? Other than there is no god of course....
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:53 PM   #294
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
can't use carriage....
Snip...
I was trying to use a term understandable to those rooted in the bronze age

You can ban carriage and I'll say box big enough to sit in. Banning all words until there are none left is not the same as the discussions I have described where only a handful of words are banned and where the purpose is actually for people to think about and communicate what they mean when they throw such words around. You could also allow the words but keep interrupting to seek definitions eg "What do you mean by heaven / god?" but in my limited experience it is easier to just say, tell me what you believe without using the word god or heaven or soul else you can end up in 'Brexit means Brexit' type tautologies.

People do not think about what they really mean by those words. They are just an indoctrinated short cut / free pass and stopping to actually think about what you mean by them can be very illuminating.

The car analogy is terrible by the way. Not only can it be broken down in great detail both in component parts (there are manuals that clearly illustrate this) method and principles of operation but even the manufacture of the component parts can be explained and of course we could show physical models as well as the real thing. The manual for heaven on the other hand is surprisingly light on detail.

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Old 28th February 2017, 04:58 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
can't use carriage....

You know that there is a difference between writing something and speaking extemporaneously, of course you do,

I believe in an almighty creator who exists in an abode of eternal Bliss

I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord,
who was conceived by the manifestation of the creators' will on earth,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into the abode of eternal bliss,
he is seated at the right hand of the creator whom I have so recently mentioned,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the manifestation of the creator's will
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

(i was going to post it in Latin, but that would be frowned on)
I don't believe any of that, however:
Do not care. Go for it. Knock yourself out.

Interesting how receiving the same consideration in return doesn't often happen.
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:59 PM   #296
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
I was trying to use a term understandable to those rooted in the bronze age

You can ban carriage and I'll say box big enough to sit in. Banning all words until there are none left is not the same as the discussions I have described where only a handful of words are banned and where the purpose is actually for people to think about and communicate what they mean when they throw such words around. You could also allow the words but keep interrupting to seek definitions eg "What do you mean by heaven / god?" but in my limited experience it is easier to just say, tell me what you believe without using the word god or heaven or soul else you can end up in 'Brexit means Brexit' type tautologies.

People do not think about what they really mean by those words. They are just an indoctrinated short cut / free pass and stopping to actually think about what you mean by them can be very illuminating.

The car analogy is terrible by the way. Not only can it be broken down in great detail both in component parts (there are manuals that clearly illustrate this) method and principles of operation but even the manufacture of the component parts can be explained and of course we could show physical models as well as the real thing. The manual for heaven on the other hand is surprisingly light on detail.
weird, you focused on the joke rather than my systematic exposition of the belief system of an entire faith within the confines of your challenge.

Oh well.
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:02 PM   #297
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

I believe in an almighty creator who exists in an abode of eternal bliss
OK, now we're getting closer, thank you for playing. Unfortunately I have to bow out for now but I would follow up with "Could you tell me where this abode of eternal bliss is" etc.
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:04 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
OK, now we're getting closer, thank you for playing. Unfortunately I have to bow out for now but I would follow up with "Could you tell me where this abode of eternal bliss is" etc.
Certainly, on a spiritual plane that you may certainly think of a dimension outside those of your senses.

Physicists think there are lots!

It is science.
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:07 PM   #299
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
weird, you focused on the joke rather than my systematic exposition of the belief system of an entire faith within the confines of your challenge.

Oh well.
I didn't realise it was a joke, my apologies. Have started to tackle the rest to give an indication how the discussion would proceed away from abstract concepts but need sleep now.
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:15 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
can't use carriage....
That's easy. Buy any printer. One gets carriage return for free by default. Or a ten dollar Keyboard. Well you gotta pay extra for the capital "K" but still, no biggy

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You know that there is a difference between writing something and speaking extemporaneously, of course you do,
You understand what that implies, right?

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I believe in an almighty creator who exists in an abode of eternal Bliss
Define it's state and location. Other wise that is just plain weird.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord,
who was conceived by the manifestation of the creators' will on earth,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into the abode of eternal bliss,
he is seated at the right hand of the creator whom I have so recently mentioned,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the manifestation of the creator's will
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

(i was going to post it in Latin, but that would be frowned on)
Sorry, copypasta does not cut the proverbial mustard, although much of it was comedy gold, especially when you disagreed with prior posta
(intentional) of your own.

And what on earth leads you to believe that nobody else can read, write, speak and understand latin?
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Old 28th February 2017, 05:24 PM   #301
Ethan Thane Athen
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Certainly, on a spiritual plane that you may certainly think of a dimension outside those of your senses.

Physicists think there are lots!

It is science.
Damn, can't resist, positively last post. OK so you believe there's a super powerful being who lives in another dimension where everyone is always happy (not sure how that fits with the vengeful being in the bible but we'll pass on that for now)...

Is that OK so far or am I twisting your words?

And would it be fair to say you believe that this super-powered being from another dimension created the earth / solar system / universe / this dimension or did he just create us and transport us across dimensions to it or discover this dimension and create us in it?

And then we can go on to deconstruct how we, or parts of us (what part, what are it's properties, does it have all our memories, feelings etc?) , will travel to that ,other, happy dimension, what it's like there and why we'd be happy etc and so on. And then get more into the nature of that being. It can be instructional in terms of the power of socially loaded words to substitute alternatives and see if the inherent message still makes sense eg Zaxx, the super powered being from the happy dimension created us and placed us in this dimension but will let our consciouses leave our bodies and cross back into the happy dimension if we promise to serve him. I'm going further than you said but you get the picture...

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Old 28th February 2017, 05:41 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Well that would perhaps suggest that having a belief is a bad thing.
Claiming that atheism is a belief is a “bad thing” because it’s an incorrect thing. Beliefs are "bad things" because knowledge is much, much better. In other words, beliefs are inadequate compared to knowledge. Suspension of disbeliefs are adequate for fantasy entertainment purposes however.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Certainly you have beliefs.
I have no god or other paranormal beliefs that I’m aware of. I don’t know everything so of course I have other forms of beliefs. These beliefs are essentially fillers for lack of knowledge, and I prefer not to use them to make important life decisions.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I believe that I make the best damn Chili in cook county
It’s infinitely more possible that your belief is actually true than any god exits is actually true.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
See, what do you believe? Other than there is no god of course.…
I believe some things that I don’t currently know. Whether I believe something or not, and how strongly I believe it, depends on it’s importance and credibility. It’s neither important nor credible to me that any god exists.
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Old 28th February 2017, 06:47 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
And then get more into the nature of that being. It can be instructional in terms of the power of socially loaded words to substitute alternatives and see if the inherent message still makes sense eg Zaxx, the super powered being from the happy dimension created us and placed us in this dimension but will let our consciouses leave our bodies and cross back into the happy dimension if we promise to serve him.
Xenu, Mommy! I want to hear about Xenu now!

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Old 28th February 2017, 07:36 PM   #304
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"See, what do you believe? Other than there is no god of course.Ö"

And therein lies the error, at least regarding some of us. Speaking for myself, it is not that I believe God does not exist, rather that I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe he exists. A subtle difference, perhaps, but more defensible.

I do have beliefs. However, these beliefs are based upon evidence, usually drawn from prior performance. I believe I can trust my wife; I believe the sun will rise in the morning, etc. I do not have a belief in God because I have seen no or insufficient evidence upon which to base such a belief.

However, there is also good reason to flatly say that God does not exist. An educated person (and I assume you will allow that this describes the people here) has a working if not expert knowledge of how the universe works. In order to do whatever he needs or wants to do, God would likely have to violate one or more of these rules (ie perform a miracle). That being the case, even a single ongoing miracle that could be witnessed over time by multitudes (say, Niagara Falls, and only Niagara Falls, flowing upstream for a year) would probably be sufficient evidence of the presence, power and direction of a superbeing.

There is a decided lack of any such widespread or durable event in the world's history. In fact, the best any notional deity has been able to do along these lines is to create rather bad self-portraiture on various foodstuffs and architecture. I'm sorry, but it's going to take more than that.

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Old 28th February 2017, 10:06 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Simple, if the discussion is whether the story is accurate or not, calling it a myth is not going to advance the discussion.

If someone who told me that they believed in the story of Thor and asked me not to call it a myth, I would honor their request
What an interestingly asymmetrical punctillio. All of the stories of all of the 'gods' are, properly, "myths" (which is not a pejorative; see the work of Joseph Campbell, and your own claims that any uncomfortable bits in the xain OT can be sanitized as "metaphor"), and yet at that you take umbrage; meanwhile you mischaracterize atheism as a "belief system", which it is not, and continue to do so in the face of correction. Is it possible you do not understand the "magisterium's" take on invincible ignorance?

FTR: atheism is not a "belief system", it is no more, and no less, that the lack of belief in any of the legion of 'gods' that have been claimed (without evidence) to exist. You really ought to update your understanding.

ETA: ninja-ed by ynot...
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:10 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I was asked not to? weird
Actually, you have had it explained to you, over and over, why your intentional mischaracterization of atheism as a "belief system" and of atheists as "believers" are factually incorrect; an honest disputant would not need to be asked not to intentionally persist in demonstrated error.
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:13 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Certainly, on a spiritual plane that you may certainly think of a dimension outside those of your senses.

Physicists think there are lots!

It is science.
Which physicists, precisely?

Do those physicists accept your flip and irreverent characterization of their ideas about other dimensions?

What of the physicists that specifically object to the conflation of "other dimensions" with a "spiritual realm"; and those that specifically reject the idea that myth is "science"?
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:16 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
can't use carriage....

You know that there is a difference between writing something and speaking extemporaneously, of course you do,

I believe in an almighty creator who exists in an abode of eternal Bliss

I believe in Jesus Christ, our Lord,
who was conceived by the manifestation of the creators' will on earth,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into the abode of eternal bliss,
he is seated at the right hand of the creator whom I have so recently mentioned,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the manifestation of the creator's will
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

(i was going to post it in Latin, but that would be frowned on)
Very good! You see? THAT is a credal statement. Atheism has no such.
(are you competent to judge the quality of the Latin translation?)
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Old 28th February 2017, 10:19 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
"See, what do you believe? Other than there is no god of course.Ö"

And therein lies the error, at least regarding some of us. Speaking for myself, it is not that I believe God does not exist, rather that I have not seen sufficient evidence to believe he exists. A subtle difference, perhaps, but more defensible.

I do have beliefs. However, these beliefs are based upon evidence, usually drawn from prior performance. I believe I can trust my wife; I believe the sun will rise in the morning, etc. I do not have a belief in God because I have seen no or insufficient evidence upon which to base such a belief.

However, there is also good reason to flatly say that God does not exist. An educated person (and I assume you will allow that this describes the people here) has a working if not expert knowledge of how the universe works. In order to do whatever he needs or wants to do, God would likely have to violate one or more of these rules (ie perform a miracle). That being the case, even a single ongoing miracle that could be witnessed over time by multitudes (say, Niagara Falls, and only Niagara Falls, flowing upstream for a year) would probably be sufficient evidence of the presence, power and direction of a superbeing.

There is a decided lack of any such widespread or durable event in the world's history. In fact, the best any notional deity has been able to do along these lines is to create rather bad self-portraiture on various foodstuffs and architecture. I'm sorry, but it's going to take more than that.

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Well said!

Atheism is not a "belief structure"; not a credal confession. It is simply the lack of belief in 'god', in a 'god', nor yet in any of the bewildering myriad of 'gods' to which people have tried to put other people in thrall...
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:04 PM   #310
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Claiming atheism is the product of belief is as silly as claiming theism is the product of knowledge.

ETA - Ynot awaits the predictable theist response . . .
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:33 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Hercules Rockefeller View Post
Hi arthwollipot! How has your atheism affected you?
I have no idea what you mean by that question.

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Repeating what has been said before is NOT me assuming others belefs.
Excuse me. I have never said that I believe that "it is better to humour their condition" or anything like it. So when you said that I believe that, you were telling me what I believe, in utter and complete contradiction to what I actually believe.

If you had given me any reason to respect you as a person, I would demand an apology. But I know that one would not be forthcoming, because you don't believe - and you will never believe - that you have done anything wrong.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:34 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Curious how you think this statement of yours reflects reality.

You know better; a-theism is not a "belief system".
Apart from a small definitional problem, his statement was entirely accurate.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:42 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Ethan Thane Athen View Post
If not fairy tale then what? Myth? Myth is probably more accurate as it covers belief in other gods such as Zeus, Odin, Arawn etc. Fairy tale may seem too specific but things are described as fairy tales that have other supernatural being or events that aren't fairy related.

Still 'myth' seems more accurate.

I suspect people will choose to find that offensive as well - accurate though it is by any, 'nonspecialist treatment' application of logic.
I would classify its foundations as mythological, yes. However, religion - particularly the Big Five religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism - go way past the common run-of-the-mill myths. You don't find most myths held as important parts of people's lives, for example. Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion. And folklore and fairy tales are different things again.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:47 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Simple, if the discussion is whether the story is accurate or not, calling it a myth is not going to advance the discussion.

If someone who told me that they believed in the story of Thor and asked me not to call it a myth, I would honor their request
For the record, Ńsatrķ is recognised as a religion.

Of course, the way they practice their Norse religion today is very different from what we know about the way the ancient Norse practiced it.
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Old 28th February 2017, 11:54 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would classify its foundations as mythological, yes. However, religion - particularly the Big Five religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism - go way past the common run-of-the-mill myths. You don't find most myths held as important parts of people's lives, for example. Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion. And folklore and fairy tales are different things again.

You seem to be digging yourself into a hole here arthwollipot:

"Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion."

So were do you draw a line between myth and religion?
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:12 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You seem to be digging yourself into a hole here arthwollipot:

"Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion."

So were do you draw a line between myth and religion?
I just said. You just quoted.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:13 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I would classify its foundations as mythological, yes. However, religion - particularly the Big Five religions - Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism - go way past the common run-of-the-mill myths. You don't find most myths held as important parts of people's lives, for example. Myths don't have followers. That's what differentiates myth from religion. And folklore and fairy tales are different things again.
Argumentum ad populum and pedantics of convenience. What has being important parts of people's lives got to do with defining an unsubstantiated religious story as being a myth or not? If killing people is an important part of peoples lives should we not call it murder because it might upset them? Perhaps you should write a “touchy-feely-niceness” dictionary so we can all know which are the appropriate words to use when discussing important parts of peoples lives. Good luck with finding any consensus.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:21 AM   #318
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Well, it comes down to the definition of myth, doesn't it? And surprise surprise, that word actually does have a definition. So does "fairy tale".
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:26 AM   #319
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Religions are based on stories that have never been proven to be anything but mythical. It’s not credible therefore to separate myth from religion. Religious myths obviously have heaps of followers. That some theists get upset when their religious stories are appropriately called myths is merely their denial that they are myths because they want and believe they are something more substantial than they actually are.
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:32 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Well, it comes down to the definition of myth, doesn't it? And surprise surprise, that word actually does have a definition. So does "fairy tale".
The first dictionary definition of "myth" I read . . .

Myth - "A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/myth

What in that doesn't appropriately apply to religious stories including The Bible?

To show I'm not cherry-picking here's another, and I'm sure there are many more . . .

Myth - "A usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon. creation myths"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth

Your turn - Provide an accepted definition of "myth" that doesn't apply to religious stories including The Bible . . .
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