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Old 6th March 2017, 11:35 AM   #281
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And the distraction tactic continues to work, as this thread stops being about the baseless slander perpetrated by the current occupant of the Oval Office.
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:39 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
As a first step, how about if you stop calling Trump "fuhrer" and instead refer to him by his actual title?
Lord Feltersnatch?
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:48 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Lord Feltersnatch?
Baron Munchausen?
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:51 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by TheL8Elvis View Post
Is it OK if we refer to him as Moscow Donnie ?

Lying Donnie ?

Little Donnie ?

Crooked Donnie ?
Trump has done his part to coarsen political discourse. Let's not follow his lead.
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:52 AM   #285
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Just the word and name "Trump" has become tainted.
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:54 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And the distraction tactic continues to work, as this thread stops being about the baseless slander perpetrated by the current occupant of the Oval Office.
Well, not much going on there. Trump read a conspiracy theory and bought it and some legislators think it's worthwhile to look into it.

Meanwhile, the DOJ ignores Comey.
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:57 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Sure, if you don't want to take that first step. You can continue to crawl around in the muck I guess, but don't expect the rest of us to wait up for you.
How about "So Called President Trump"?
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Old 6th March 2017, 11:58 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Tax returns don't show your net worth. Nor is it easy to infer net worth from taxable income. In any case, Trump is almost certainly a billionaire. Just his real estate holdings alone put him well over $1.5 billion, and it is virtually impossible for him to have enough unsecured, recourse debt to bring his net worth materially below that.
Any chance you could supply the rest of us with the financial data you have?
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:05 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Well, not much going on there. Trump read a conspiracy theory and bought it and some legislators think it's worthwhile to look into it.

Meanwhile, the DOJ ignores Comey.
We could discuss the fact that yet more money will be wasted on pointless investigation of insanity emanating from the White House...sorry, a Florida resort.

Maybe it's a Republican thing.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:08 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
And the distraction tactic continues to work, as this thread stops being about the baseless slander perpetrated by the current occupant of the Oval Office.
Why it's a page right out of The Dunce's playbook! My fave new nickname for our fuhrer. (Which is German for a "leader or guide.")

But seriously, when two men of the integrity of Norman Eisen and Richard Painter quote one of Trump's sons, as a source that Trump has business ties to Russia (despite his apparently dishonest denial) I think it's unlikely they're referring to condo sales.

As an example, from a CNN report:
Quote:
Trump partnered with the Bayrock Group, a company run by Soviet immigrants, and according to a lawsuit filed, financed by Russian and Kazakhstan money. Together, they developed Trump properties in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, and New York. They also planned on opening a Trump Tower in Moscow. However, Trump said in a deposition that the plan fell through after media reports began questioning Trump's net worth. The partners with Russian ties in the United States backed out....Trump hired the law firm Sojuzpatent to file at least eight trademarks in Russia between 1996 and 2008, including "Trump," "Trump Home" and "Trump Tower." Link
Trump has tried very hard to "do deals" in Russia but to little success:
Quote:
An attempt to build a Trump Tower in Moscow fell through before it began. CNN didn't find any projects that were actually completed in Russia. In a 2007 deposition, Trump was asked about the proposal for the project.
"It was a Trump International Hotel and Tower. It would be a nonexclusive deal, so it would not have precluded me from doing other deals in Moscow, which was very important to me."
Finally, in the 2008 interview Donald Trump, Jr. said there was a lot of money pouring in from Russia "and" Russians were buying condos. If anyone wants context here's a link to the interview itself, in eturbonews: Link
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:10 PM   #291
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So many usurpers
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:16 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
We could discuss the fact that yet more money will be wasted on pointless investigation of insanity emanating from the White House...sorry, a Florida resort.

Maybe it's a Republican thing.
We could discuss that, but I think most of us agree that this is obviously insane. Only the most diehard supporters can even pretend that this allegation is worth pursuing.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:28 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
We could discuss that, but I think most of us agree that this is obviously insane. Only the most diehard supporters can even pretend that this allegation is worth pursuing.
.....well them and no doubt the whole of the GOP in Congress
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:30 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
We could discuss that, but I think most of us agree that this is obviously insane. Only the most diehard supporters can even pretend that this allegation is worth pursuing.
I think you're being way too charitable here. Given the current political climate, no insanity should be considered unlikely.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:37 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
We could discuss that, but I think most of us agree that this is obviously insane. Only the most diehard supporters can even pretend that this allegation is worth pursuing.
That makes it all the more concerning that the GOP appears eager to appease his conspiracies. Chaffaetz has already announced they're going to look into it.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:37 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
There seems to be a growing clamor -- bipartisan, at least two House Republicans are on board -- that Trump release his tax returns. Nothing in them that will shed light on his business dealings in Russia? Don't be too sure. This was written five months ago by former White House ethics lawyers Norman Eisen and Richard W. Painter:


They also point out that Trump is on record as having stated:

But one of his son's said in 2008:


There's an obvious conflict there and it's too important to be ignored.
12,000 page tax return. My mind is boggled.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:39 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by eeyore1954 View Post
Just kidding.
An UKian misses irony? I thought it was only Americans who did that.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:40 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Any chance you could supply the rest of us with the financial data you have?
This article gives a rundown of his most valuable investments in real estate.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:40 PM   #299
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Okay, here's another question: Does executive immunity extend to civil lawsuits (for, say, slander) emanating from an [occasional] Oval Office occupant's Twitter account?
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:40 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
That makes it all the more concerning that the GOP appears eager to appease his conspiracies. Chaffaetz has already announced they're going to look into it.
Right. It's a waste of time and money. I agree.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:44 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Seconded!

One should not call Trump things like "fuhrer" because Trump has not earned that title (at least not yet he has not).

Instead, one should call Trump by the titles that he has earned such as:

Pussy Grabber,
Crook,
Liar,
Spoiled Brat,
Fraud,

and so on.
It's not like Trump called anyone crooked, lying, little or any other derogatory terms repeatedly.
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
At a certain point, if Trump said 2 + 2 = 5, some people would start pontificating about the variable value of "2."
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:44 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
We could discuss that, but I think most of us agree that this is obviously insane. Only the most diehard supporters can even pretend that this allegation is worth pursuing.
Only the most diehard opponents can even pretend that this allegation is not worth pursuing. There is a lot of smoke there.

Take a look at this.

Quote:
In its final days, the Obama administration has expanded the power of the National Security Agency to share globally intercepted personal communications with the government’s 16 other intelligence agencies before applying privacy protections.

...

Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch signed the new rules, permitting the N.S.A. to disseminate “raw signals intelligence information,” on Jan. 3, after the director of national intelligence, James R. Clapper Jr., signed them on Dec. 15, according to a 23-page, largely declassified copy of the procedures.

...

But Patrick Toomey, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union, called the move an erosion of rules intended to protect the privacy of Americans when their messages are caught by the N.S.A.’s powerful global collection methods. He noted that domestic internet data was often routed or stored abroad, where it may get vacuumed up without court oversight.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:46 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Okay, here's another question: Does executive immunity extend to civil lawsuits (for, say, slander) emanating from an [occasional] Oval Office occupant's Twitter account?
That depends on if it's considered an official presidential act or personal conduct. Something White House counsel probably hasn't considered yet.

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Old 6th March 2017, 12:48 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Only the most diehard opponents can even pretend that this allegation is not worth pursuing. There is a lot of smoke there.

Take a look at this.
How does that story from back in January mean Trump's Breitbart-fueled paranoid nonsense from this past weekend is actually justified?

Particularly since it discusses actions taken long after the alleged "wiretaps" supposedly happened.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:48 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Only the most diehard opponents can even pretend that this allegation is not worth pursuing. There is a lot of smoke there.

Take a look at this.
To what "smoke" are you refering?
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:50 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Right. It's a waste of time and money. I agree.
It's not just that unfortunately. By acting as though the accusation has merit they give it false credibility. It reinforces the fantasy world that alt-right is creating for Trumpists.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:51 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's not just that unfortunately. By acting as though the accusation has merit they give it false credibility. It reinforces the fantasy world that alt-right is creating for Trumpists.
...and distracts from real issues.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:52 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Only the most diehard opponents can even pretend that this allegation is not worth pursuing. There is a lot of smoke there.

Take a look at this.
So wait...maybe I've missed some of your posts, but you appear to believe the Russia/Trump administration issue is a red herring and not worth pursuing but think that only a die hard opponent wouldn't pursue the wire tapping accusation?

It almost looks like you've fallen for Trump's redirection.
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Old 6th March 2017, 12:56 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
So many usurpers
No, you're the surper.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:12 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
That depends on if it's considered an official presidential act or personal conduct. Something White House counsel probably hasn't considered yet.
They'll have to consider it. While President Obama is unlikely to sue because it would appear to be politically motivated, based on his actions so far the current head of the executive branch is almost certainly going to slander someone who will be willing to fight.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:14 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Okay, here's another question: Does executive immunity extend to civil lawsuits (for, say, slander) emanating from an Oval Office occupant's Twitter account?
Since Trump feels the presidency gives him dictatorial authority, he might think that Obama also had dictatorial authority over anyone employed in the executive branch.

Since Trump is self-centered, he might think that any wiretapping of someone in his organization is infallibly aimed at him.

Since Trump is incapable of nuance, he might be genuinely ignorant that legal wiretapping exists, so he threw in the word "illegal" to spice up his tweet (possibly at Bannon's behest).

So: If anyone within the executive branch sought a wiretapping warrant against anyone in Trump's circle it translates as "Obama illegally tapped my phones" (paraphrase), and that's probably good enough for his supporters.

Me: But if they had a warrant it wasn't illegal.
Trump supporter: Say what?
Me: Even if someone in the FBI sought a warrant, it doesn't mean Obama ordered it or had knowledge of it.
Trump supporter: Yeah, right.
Me: Even if they were granted a warrant, that doesn't mean they carried out the wiretapping.
Trump supporter: Sure, if you say so.
Me: Even if the request was aimed at someone within Trump's circle, that doesn't mean Trump himself was the target.
Trump supporter: Oh, come on. Everyone knows Obama was personally gunning for Trump.

Trump's tweet could contain 4 outright lies and his supporters probably wouldn't mind because Obama. "Obama illegally tapped my phones." No, Obama didn't order it. No, they weren't illegal. No, it's unclear if taps were carried out. No, Trump himself wasn't the target. He tweets something inaccurate; his base loves it; the media goes into manic mode, throwing up multiple headlines without actually addressing what did happen.

I might have missed it; if there has been a good piece "unpacking" that tweet I'd like to know.

The good news is that White House rivalries might give the media some valid, though anonymous, information. But does anyone recall that one week ago, the White House was handing reporters inaccurate information just to manipulate them? Are the media getting played again? What if they had reported this without the hyperventilation? "Trump says Obama did X. Trump offered no evidence this occurred. An Obama spokesman denied that it occurred." Overreaction to Trump's tweets is just feeding the troll. The media tripping over their dicks thinking this time it's a "gotcha" for sure!

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Old 6th March 2017, 01:20 PM   #312
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The corollary:

Since Trump is an ******* and a lying sack of **** and so are many of his most loyal followers, just assume you are being manipulated from the get-go.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:21 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
How does that story from back in January mean Trump's Breitbart-fueled paranoid nonsense from this past weekend is actually justified?

Particularly since it discusses actions taken long after the alleged "wiretaps" supposedly happened.
Trump's allegation appears to be an intuitive bet that something fishy has been happening. I think he should have talked more softly and wielded a larger stick, but he made is decision. I don't think it was without some considerable weighing of the pros and cons.

I do believe that there has been an effort by the "deep state" to undermine Trump's Presidency. I also believe that this effort has been led by Obama loyalists and appointees who are still in government, or who are leaking from outside the government. Furthermore, the timing of Obama's executive order allowing the NSA to share raw data with other agencies is extremely suspicious. It's a hell of a coincidence, don't you think? And this comes on the heels of a New York Times article last week about Obama people leaving "breadcrumbs" about Trump's connections to Russia (e.g. lowering classification levels so that intelligence could be dispersed more widely and performing a kabuki dance in classified briefings, so that certain items would be archived).

My general impression is that Trump's ties to Russia are nothingburgers. He has the level and number of ties one would expect for a billionaire, particularly one who lives in New York City, which has a huge Russian population and is one of the global playgrounds for Russian oligarchs.

Whether or not Russia tried to help Trump win (and my feeling is that Russia was more concerned with hurting Hillary than actually helping Trump), I don't think Russia needed Trump's help, nor even cared very much about him. They probably saw him as a clown who didn't even know how to run a successful campaign let alone know how best to hack the DNC and spread damaging information.

The fact that the media has been ridiculously consumed with Trump's Russia ties since even before the election is almost entirely due to the fact that the mainstream media and anti-Trumpers (but I repeat myself) are hoping beyond hope that this is the loose thread which will unravel his administration. The leaking from inside the deep state is part of the same effort.

Trump's allegations, thinly-sourced as they are, at least provide some pushback. Just as his seemingly random comment about Sweden prompted a closer look at Sweden, his over-the-top allegations against Obama will also prompt a closer look. This is Trump calling the deep-staters' bluff. We'll see how it plays out. I for one am enjoying the spectacle. Meanwhile, Trump's dismantling of the administrative state proceeds apace ... All is well.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:22 PM   #314
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The resident, "Sandy Hook was a false flag and pizza gate is real" crazy conspiracy believing Trump supporter on Facebook writes this off as corrupt liberal judges signing the FISA warrant.

I don't even bother discussing with him anymore because his response is always involve "fake news", "libtards", or "conspiracy/liberal plant/corrupt".
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:22 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Only the most diehard opponents can even pretend that this allegation is not worth pursuing. There is a lot of smoke there.

Take a look at this.
And with your keen eye for detail, did you happen to notice that the article you cite concerns the sharing of data that has already has been collected as opposed to the collection of new data?
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:25 PM   #316
sunmaster14
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
And with your keen eye for detail, did you happen to notice that the article you cite concerns the sharing of data that has already has been collected as opposed to the collection of new data?
Huh? Why does that matter?
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:30 PM   #317
A'isha
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Trump's allegation appears to be an intuitive bet that something fishy has been happening.
In other words, he made up a bunch of ******** without evidence. And the Heil Trumpers are dutifully trying to scrape up anything they can to try and show that Trump is right, even if what they find not only doesn't support Trump's claims, it had nothing even remotely to do with Trump's claims.

What you're doing is somewhere around the same level as those Palin fans who tried to edit Paul Revere's Wikipedia entry so that it would look like Palin wasn't talking out of her ass.

Quote:
I do believe that there has been an effort by the "deep state" to undermine Trump's Presidency. I also believe that this effort has been led by Obama loyalists and appointees who are still in government, or who are leaking from outside the government.
Now, is this part of the plan of the shape-shifting alien lizards to enslave us all, or in addition to it?

Quote:
Trump's allegations, thinly-sourced as they are,
"The Emperor's new clothes, as thin as they are..."
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:32 PM   #318
paulhutch
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Depends on how is businesses are set up...and if he was smart enough to do it right
In a letter from March 2016 his tax lawyers said:
Quote:
As disclosed in your Executive Branch Personnel Financial Disclosure Report (OGE Form 278e), filed on July 15, 2015, you hold interests as the sole or principal owner in approximately 500 separate entities. These entities are collectively referred to and do business as The Trump Organization. These entities engage in hundreds of transactions, deals, and new enterprises every year. Because you operate these businesses almost exclusively through sole proprietorships and/or closely held partnerships, your personal federal income tax returns are inordinately large and complex for an individual.
To me that indicates Trumps tax returns would say far more about his businesses than is normal.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:41 PM   #319
Crossbow
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Huh? Why does that matter?
If you read your own citation then you would already know.

You were the one who was insinuating that your citation shows that Obama may well have used the rule change to establish that Obama was indeed tapping Trump's telephone.

However, your own citation clearly shows that this is not the fact.
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On 16 MAY 2017 Paul Bethke discussed some of the sexual prohibitions of his god regarding man-to-man sex acts and woman-to-woman sex acts: "So not only lesbian acts but also anal sex.."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post11840580

A man's best friend is his dogma.
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Old 6th March 2017, 01:48 PM   #320
dudalb
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Trump is having Anger Management issues:

http://time.com/4691555/donald-trump...health-russia/

So to vent about his agenda being derailed,he brings out a crazy tweet that derails it even more?

The guy is hopeless;he just cannot get that governing is different then campaigning.
This is not going to end well.
That is the irony, if these over the top tweets are a deliberate strategy to create a diversion from the Russia issues, they do so by making Trump look deranged. Not a net gain.
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