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Old 11th March 2017, 01:19 PM   #41
paulhutch
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I teach 10 and 11 year-olds. This poster assignment is on par with showing "Schindler's List", or having an abortion debate. It's not appropriate for that grade level.
Here's a bit more in depth of an article with pictures of the kid's works.
http://patch.com/new-jersey/southora...parent-outrage
Quote:
"For the past decade, South Mountain 5th grade classes have culminated a unit on Colonial America with a three-part project," Ramos wrote. "The assignment asks students to select a colony to research, and then create 'primary source-type documents' that reflect one of the colonies and time period of Colonial America.”

Students then are given a menu of tasks from which to choose, including creating a "colorful poster advertising an event that might occur during your time period and colony."

Examples of such a colorful advertisement include a "poster for a lecture or a speech, protest or slave auction," the letter states.
If you have a chance to check out the whole article I'd like to hear of your opinion on it with more information at your disposal.

Last edited by paulhutch; 11th March 2017 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:25 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Here's a bit more in depth of an article with pictures of the kid's works.
http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/20...epage-featured

If you have a chance to check it out I'd like to hear of your opinion on it with more information at your disposal.
Quote:
District officials say the project, part of a larger Colonial America unit for fifth grade students and one of several options students could choose to complete, has been in place for the past 10 years. Parents raised concerns after the assignment was sent home this year, Superintendent John Ramos said in a note, prompting district officials to consult education experts about it.
According to the above, it wasn't about posting the assignment in the hall without context. Parents (and I'd be willing to bet it was one parent/set of parents who started the ball rolling) were already upset about it. Combining art with homework on more serious topics is a pretty common thing, and I don't have a problem with this at all - even if the children were told about beatings, brandings, sickness, and despair...in fact, I'd have a problem with a slavery curriculum that did not include those things. If the children are going to be taught about slavery, they should be taught that slaves were treated horribly; doing otherwise would be disgusting.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:29 PM   #43
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Oh, here's a little detail that may explain the reaction to this event:

Quote:
The assignment had been set by the South Mountain Elementary School in South Orange, near Newark.
South Orange is almost 30% African-American. The facebook post cited in the NJ.com article is from a Jamil Karriem. I suspect it's AA parents who are objecting to this, and not because they want the school to ignore slavery:

Quote:
In a curriculum that lacks representation for students of color, it breaks my heart that these will be the images that young black and brown kids see of people with their skin color.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:38 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Is it going to realistically depict slave auctioning? The branding that went on before the auction? Naked slaves being poked and prodded? Slaves with open sores? We wouldn't want to whitewash any history on account of hold old the students are.

A great followup activity would be collages of old timey photos of scarred slaves. And, of course, the unit could culminate in a mock castration of a slave who got a little too friendly with the plantation owner's daughter.
Surely, this is a bit of straw man, no?

I don't see anyone here saying that every horror of slavery is appropriate fodder for fifth (?) grade.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
Here's a bit more in depth of an article with pictures of the kid's works.
http://patch.com/new-jersey/southora...parent-outrage


If you have a chance to check out the whole article I'd like to hear of your opinion on it with more information at your disposal.
After seeing the prominent wanted poster of smiling Mary Brown, I'm even more convinced this was a bad idea. At least one of the kids has an image of a happy black fugitive, wanted for stealing bread. What a lark!

This assignment is impossible. The students are trying to depict a brutal dehumanizing event in a way that's suitable to display in an elementary school hallway. Students, at that age, need to be told in general terms what went on.

I'm wondering why this teacher chose slave auctions. Why not posters of slaves being raped, hanged, tortured, hobbled?
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:42 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Surely, this is a bit of straw man, no?

I don't see anyone here saying that every horror of slavery is appropriate fodder for fifth (?) grade.
There was a poster who didn't have any problem with the class doing a mock castration.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:47 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
There was a poster who didn't have any problem with the class doing a mock castration.
I rather suspect he missed that bit or dismissed it as hyperbole.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:48 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
How spirited was the debate? Did you guys learn about D&C's? Were photos of aborted fetuses displayed by the pro-life side? Did the pro-choice side go into gory detail about coat hanger abortions and their aftermath? I'm guessing the debate you had was mild and glossed over the unsavory details of actual abortions (medical and back-alley) and the complications that can happen.

But let me ask you: did you draw posters depicting abortions?
I should have used the word discussion, as it was not a formal debate. It took place over the course of several weeks. Facts and figures were welcomed from both sides of the issue, but we weren't allowed to bring in "visual aids". (Though just a couple years later, there was an ad on the Seattle buses with an image of a woman who'd hemorrhaged to death from an illegal abortion, that's not relevant to a classroom in a conservative town.)

The debate was in no way mild, but our teacher actually encouraged us to think for ourselves. It was also the first school I'd attended that let girls wear pants. That should tell you something about the time, and the town.

Yes we learned about D&C's, or more properly, the other kids did. My dad was in med school at the time, and he and my mom had both had careers as lab techs at one of the local hospitals.

And no, we didn't draw posters. That was pretty childish by our lofty 6th grade standards - I mean, we were almost teenagers

It wasn't scarring. Now, Civil Defense drills on what to do when we were nuked, that could be pretty scarring. Especially if you were a smart enough kid to realize that all those instructions about how to unwrap a loaf of bread to keep it uncontaminated by fallout on the wrapper were just puffery to make people feel like it was a manageable scenario.

Things were changing very fast in the US at that time. Most of the kids I knew were very concerned about things, and were far more interested in the world around us than, say, playing jacks or marbles at recess.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:48 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I'm wondering why this teacher chose slave auctions. Why not posters of slaves being raped, hanged, tortured, hobbled?
I'm wondering if you're reading the posts before yours, let alone the linked articles.
Quote:
"For the past decade, South Mountain 5th grade classes have culminated a unit on Colonial America with a three-part project," Ramos wrote. "The assignment asks students to select a colony to research, and then create 'primary source-type documents' that reflect one of the colonies and time period of Colonial America.”

Students then are given a menu of tasks from which to choose, including creating a "colorful poster advertising an event that might occur during your time period and colony."
Key words: "Select" and "choose." It doesn't sound like the teacher was prescribing specific topics.
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Old 11th March 2017, 01:57 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I rather suspect he missed that bit or dismissed it as hyperbole.
Read the exchange. I didn't get that impression.
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Old 11th March 2017, 02:06 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'm wondering if you're reading the posts before yours, let alone the linked articles.

Key words: "Select" and "choose." It doesn't sound like the teacher was prescribing specific topics.
That's irrelevant. I would no more allow students to choose to illustrate a slave auction anymore than I would allow them to choose to illustrate other horrific colonial events, like Indian massacres or executions of "witches". I imagine these parents walked down the hallway and thought, "WTF?", which appears to be exactly what happened.
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Old 11th March 2017, 02:13 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I should have used the word discussion, as it was not a formal debate. It took place over the course of several weeks. Facts and figures were welcomed from both sides of the issue, but we weren't allowed to bring in "visual aids". (Though just a couple years later, there was an ad on the Seattle buses with an image of a woman who'd hemorrhaged to death from an illegal abortion, that's not relevant to a classroom in a conservative town.)

The debate was in no way mild, but our teacher actually encouraged us to think for ourselves. It was also the first school I'd attended that let girls wear pants. That should tell you something about the time, and the town.

Yes we learned about D&C's, or more properly, the other kids did. My dad was in med school at the time, and he and my mom had both had careers as lab techs at one of the local hospitals.

And no, we didn't draw posters. That was pretty childish by our lofty 6th grade standards - I mean, we were almost teenagers

It wasn't scarring. Now, Civil Defense drills on what to do when we were nuked, that could be pretty scarring. Especially if you were a smart enough kid to realize that all those instructions about how to unwrap a loaf of bread to keep it uncontaminated by fallout on the wrapper were just puffery to make people feel like it was a manageable scenario.

Things were changing very fast in the US at that time. Most of the kids I knew were very concerned about things, and were far more interested in the world around us than, say, playing jacks or marbles at recess.
It's hard for me to believe a teacher would instruct 6th graders on specific abortion techniques and not get fired. Are you sure you're remembering that right?
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Old 11th March 2017, 02:16 PM   #53
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"Mr Ramos said "anti-bias experts" had been consulted and they had "highlighted the fact that schools all over our country often skip over the more painful aspects of American history, and that we need to do a better job of acknowledging the uglier parts of our past, so that children learn the full story".
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39242443

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Old 11th March 2017, 02:27 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's irrelevant. I would no more allow students to choose to illustrate a slave auction anymore than I would allow them to choose to illustrate other horrific colonial events, like Indian massacres or executions of "witches".
Why? I guess I could understand not putting them on display, but what's the point of exerting such control over what the children choose to illustrate in order to demonstrate their understanding of what has been taught them?
Quote:
I imagine these parents walked down the hallway and thought, "WTF?", which appears to be exactly what happened.
Wrong again. Supposedly, the complaints started when the assignment was sent home.

I can't help but suspect you're ignoring parts of the story that don't stoke your outrage, probably just like the parents who complained (and, again, this almost certainly started with only one child's parent[s]).
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Old 11th March 2017, 02:33 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Why? I guess I could understand not putting them on display, but what's the point of exerting such control over what the children choose to illustrate in order to demonstrate their understanding of what has been taught them?

Wrong again. Supposedly, the complaints started when the assignment was sent home.

I can't help but suspect you're ignoring parts of the story that don't stoke your outrage, probably just like the parents who complained (and, again, this almost certainly started with only one child's parent[s]).
"Some parents reacted angrily when they attended the school and saw the posters hanging in a hallway."

"The posters have been removed from the hallways.
"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39242443
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Old 11th March 2017, 02:40 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
It's a very weird assignment.

But one caregiver at the school, Andrea Espinoza, told the ABC 7 channel: "It's part of history, of course. It happened. I think it's good that they know."

Knowing? Yeah. Recreating? Come on... What's next? Have the children play the role of Nazi officials and write up execution orders for Jews? Maybe put on a play where some of the children lead their classmates into a "gas chamber"?
The thread ended at this point. Everything else is a footnote.
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Old 11th March 2017, 03:00 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Caregiver? What does that mean?

We still call educators for 10-11 year olds "teachers", right? This is neither preschool nor retirement home.
Probably a teachers' assistant or other supervisory aide.
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Old 11th March 2017, 03:20 PM   #58
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Everything is about execution and context with teaching. I'm not sure I trust that either was appropriately in abundant supply by someone that thought it was a good idea to post kid generated posters advertising a slave auction without any sort of context "because it happened".
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Old 11th March 2017, 03:22 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Probably a teachers' assistant or other supervisory aide.
Okay, thanks. I hadn't thought about aides, but I sure didn't think teachers had become "caregivers".
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Old 11th March 2017, 03:24 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
"Some parents reacted angrily when they attended the school and saw the posters hanging in a hallway."

"The posters have been removed from the hallways.
"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39242443
"posters hanging in the hallways" - boy, I read that wrong.
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Old 11th March 2017, 04:08 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I teach 10 and 11 year-olds. This poster assignment is on par with showing "Schindler's List", or having an abortion debate. It's not appropriate for that grade level.
"The Boy In Striped Pyjamas" was covered in Y5 or Y6 in several schools in Derbyshire at least, judging by my kid's and their friends.
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Old 11th March 2017, 04:16 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Okay, thanks. I hadn't thought about aides, but I sure didn't think teachers had become "caregivers".
Yeah, it's kind of a weird word to use. I figure the writer probably didn't get their job title and just assumed they weren't the janitor.
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Old 11th March 2017, 04:32 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
"The Boy In Striped Pyjamas" was covered in Y5 or Y6 in several schools in Derbyshire at least, judging by my kid's and their friends.
And my class has read an abbreviated version of Anne Frank. That does not entail that my 5th graders should be taught about Reserve Police Battalion 101, or draw posters of Gestapo agents arresting Jews.
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Old 11th March 2017, 04:57 PM   #64
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Something's missing from this thread...

Donald Trump Calls The Slavery Era A Good Time

Nearly 20% of Trump Fans Think Freeing the Slaves Was a Bad Idea

“That is really bad”: President Trump discovers the horrors African American slaves endured

When even the president isn't aware of the horrors of slavery, we need to rub their noses in it - not whitewash the subject with colorful posters giving the impression that it was 'good times'.
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Old 11th March 2017, 05:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
"The Boy In Striped Pyjamas" was covered in Y5 or Y6 in several schools in Derbyshire at least, judging by my kid's and their friends.
OTOH, I've talked to professors of African-American history who have said that they go easy on their intro classes because a decent number of students just fall out crying in the aisles when they read some slave narratives. This is actually an argument for exposing students to slavery earlier rather than later - they'd be better prepared to hear the narratives, and better prepared to understand US history in general. So I do appreciate what the school was trying to do here, is what I guess I'm saying, even if there weren't quite perfect in execution.
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Old 11th March 2017, 05:09 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Something's missing from this thread...

Donald Trump Calls The Slavery Era A Good Time

Nearly 20% of Trump Fans Think Freeing the Slaves Was a Bad Idea

“That is really bad”: President Trump discovers the horrors African American slaves endured

When even the president isn't aware of the horrors of slavery, we need to rub their noses in it - not whitewash the subject with colorful posters giving the impression that it was 'good times'.
Plus, throw in the republican case that there were no slaves just economic migrants.
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Old 11th March 2017, 05:42 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
Plus, throw in the republican case that there were no slaves just economic migrants.
I used to respect Carson so much...
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Old 11th March 2017, 05:53 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's hard for me to believe a teacher would instruct 6th graders on specific abortion techniques and not get fired. Are you sure you're remembering that right?
The teacher was simply moderating the discussion if it got too hot. Also, finding out what happens during a D&C is not the same thing as learning to perform one. If it was otherwise at your school, I feel sorry for the health teacher.
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Old 11th March 2017, 05:53 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Something's missing from this thread...

Donald Trump Calls The Slavery Era A Good Time

Nearly 20% of Trump Fans Think Freeing the Slaves Was a Bad Idea

“That is really bad”: President Trump discovers the horrors African American slaves endured

When even the president isn't aware of the horrors of slavery, we need to rub their noses in it - not whitewash the subject with colorful posters giving the impression that it was 'good times'.
Let's leave Minute Maid Mao out of it. Yes, he's entirely ignorant about black American history, but he's generally ignorant, period. This one is about a local school's curriculum, so no need to bring him into it this year.
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Old 11th March 2017, 06:00 PM   #70
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Quote:
rogerramjets
Quote:
Why did they word this simple question in such a strange way? I am skeptical of this number.

Quote:
The Times found that nearly 20% of Trump supporters did not approve of freeing the slaves, according to a January YouGov/Economist poll that asked respondents if they supported or disapproved of "the executive order that freed all slaves in the states that were in rebellion against the federal government" —Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.
I could be wrong, of course, but I believe if they worded the question the same as the title of the headline they would have received a different response.

Why didn't they just ask, "Do you believe freeing the slaves was a good or bad idea?"
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Old 11th March 2017, 07:09 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Something's missing from this thread...

Donald Trump Calls The Slavery Era A Good Time
At a first guess, intellectual dishonesty? Here's Trump, talking about the good old days of slavery:

Quote:
“The industrial revolution was certainly ― in terms of economically ― that was when we started to grow,” Trump said. “I liked the Ronald Reagan years. I thought the country had a wonderful, strong image.”
That is so racist that... wait, what is racist about that? The argument seems to be that the industrial revolution and slavery existed side by side, but this is largely untrue. The industrial revolution had a lot to do with the end of slavery (and the end of lots of other societal ills, like child labor). It was the industrial revolution in the North that made it impossible for the South to win the Civil War.
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Old 11th March 2017, 10:50 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
It's a very weird assignment.
But one caregiver at the school, Andrea Espinoza, told the ABC 7 channel: "It's part of history, of course. It happened. I think it's good that they know."
Knowing? Yeah. Recreating? Come on... What's next? Have the children play the role of Nazi officials and write up execution orders for Jews? Maybe put on a play where some of the children lead their classmates into a "gas chamber"?
It seems you don't like that idea but I think it is sounds fantastic. I'm a big advocate of exposing kids to atrocities early on. I was about 10 when my parents had me watch War And Remembrance with the graphic recreation of the Babi Yar massacre. It made me realize that the far right were to never be truly trusted and that machine gun pits were always a possibility in any society where far right politics has seeped in.

If we want more kids that realize they need to be vigilant against fascism we need more activities to radicalize them politically.

Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I teach 10 and 11 year-olds. This poster assignment is on par with showing "Schindler's List", or having an abortion debate. It's not appropriate for that grade level.
Why not? Again do you want kids that just plod along or political firebrands? I want the latter.
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:09 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
It seems you don't like that idea but I think it is sounds fantastic. I'm a big advocate of exposing kids to atrocities early on. I was about 10 when my parents had me watch War And Remembrance with the graphic recreation of the Babi Yar massacre. It made me realize that the far right were to never be truly trusted and that machine gun pits were always a possibility in any society where far right politics has seeped in.

If we want more kids that realize they need to be vigilant against fascism we need more activities to radicalize them politically.



Why not? Again do you want kids that just plod along or political firebrands? I want the latter.
So, if you had your way, education would involve political propaganda? And while some areas would indoctrinate fear of the far right (how far is far?), others would indoctrinate fear of the far left (same question), so we'd have a generation of "political firebrands" and nothing could go wrong.

Fine plan.
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:14 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
I was about 10 when my parents had me watch War And Remembrance with the graphic recreation of the Babi Yar massacre. It made me realize that the far right were to never be truly trusted and that machine gun pits were always a possibility in any society where far right politics has seeped in.
If you looked out the window could you see your classmates in tree houses or riding their bikes or play fighting or, you know, being kids?
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:25 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Reheat View Post
I actually agree with you. This precisely why I disagreed about why the the OP was wrong about the parents objections. Thanks for making my point valid.
With no offense to either of you, Darat could not with anything he wrote make your point valid or invalid. Validity is present or not purely in what the statement says: if correct it is valid, if incorrect, it is not. Beyond that the goal moves to: is the point complete and fully inclusive?.
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Old 12th March 2017, 01:58 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I am constantly amused at the notion that slavery and other problems of the past are somehow ignored or glossed over in American history classrooms, in an era when Zinn's The People's History of the United States is one of the most-commonly assigned textbooks.

It's kind of like assuming that the Germans never learn about the Holocaust, or the English about workhouses, or the French about the purge of the aristocrats during the French Revolution.
I am interested that you seem to put workhouses on a par with the holocaust. In England from Tudor times (say 1600) parishes had an absolute responsibility to support women and children and men unable to work. The only people who could not go 'on the parish' were able bodied men. Those able to work were given work with the potential to earn money. Children had access to education and medical care.

Now I do not pretend that abuses did not happen we are all aware of the abuses throughout the twentieth century at children's homes and homes for 'fallen women'. But look at your own country's current response to the poor and those unable to work and think that England for four hundred years has said these people cannot starve to death, the children will be educated and get access to medical care (for what that was worth in the seventeenth century).
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:06 PM   #77
Foolmewunz
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If you looked out the window could you see your classmates in tree houses or riding their bikes or play fighting or, you know, being kids?
Ya know.....

The fallacies are flowing freely here. Did someone call "Fallacy Happy Hour" and they're being offered two-for-one?

It's possible to play a little football, build a tree house AND learn some history. "Won't someone think of the children??!!" Stuff and nonsense! What's the magic age when a ten-year-old is going to be okay to learn the actual history of his/her country? Obviously not 11. Fudbucker's got some special snowflakes who couldn't handle it at that age. 12? 13? Are you ready for an honest appraisal of history when you grow some hair on it?

Most adult Americans are ignorant of colonial and antebellum history as regards to slavery. I had a discussion a couple of months ago with a Confederacy Apologist ("I never owned no slaves, why should I feel bad" was the starting point) who could not wrap her head around the 1807 ban on importing slaves. Her response was "See, it was going away, anyway!"

What many people (educated adults, supposedly) miss is that for almost six decades there were Americans involved in slave husbandry! Breeding stock. They were bought and sold and raised like animals. Would I rather that my child and all children are not exposed to such horrors? Yes,... if they never happened. Since they did happen and are very real, though, I'll settle for them learning about them, preferably in school but I'll teach the topics at home if I have to.

I've heard nine year olds making ****** jokes (with the asterisks representing the n-word). I remember thinking it was funny to call someone a "kike" at age seven. I far-better remember the sitting down at the kitchen table and having to read the Britannica entry on the holocaust, because my mother decided if I was old enough to use racial slurs I was certainly old enough to know some of the history behind those terms and the mindset that produced them.
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:44 PM   #78
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I must confess I'm too busy right now to read all through this thread. No, all right, not too busy, but I'm not going to read all through it anyway. I just stopped though at the suggestion that we ought not to teach our kids about the evils of slavery if it turned out that our ancestors kept slaves. And then another, or is the same person, says we should learn but not blame ourselves. Well, yes, we should not blame ourselves for things we do not do. But we can blame ourselvers for things we ought to know, and we can face up to the fact that our ancestors acted in ways we no longer consider right.

I'm not entirely sure a slave auction poster is the best idea, but I'm not sure it's so bad either. We suffer often from excessive abstraction, I think. It's so easy to think in great generalities, and just dismiss things like slavery and genocide as things we don't and would not do. While that is, we hope, true, it's not very insightful. I'm not so sure it's not a good idea to make some kids think really hard about the day to day realities. Slavery required a mechanism. It required people to do things to other people, and the people were real.

Quote:
The History Teacher

Trying to protect his students’ innocence
he told them the Ice Age was really just
the Chilly Age, a period of a million years
when everyone had to wear sweaters.

And the Stone Age became the Gravel Age,
named after the long driveways of the time.

The Spanish Inquisition was nothing more
than an outbreak of questions such as
“How far is it from here to Madrid?”
“What do you call the matador’s hat?”

The War of the Roses took place in a garden,
and the Enola Gay dropped one tiny atom on Japan.

The children would leave his classroom
for the playground to torment the weak
and the smart,
mussing up their hair and breaking their glasses,

while he gathered up his notes and walked home
past flower beds and white picket fences,
wondering if they would believe that soldiers
in the Boer War told long, rambling stories
designed to make the enemy nod off.

Billy Collins
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Old 12th March 2017, 08:57 PM   #79
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Another one...

Quote:
The Fly


He was writing the History of Optimism
In Time of Madness. It was raining.
One of the local butcher's largest
Carrion fanciers kept pestering him.

There was a cat too watching the fly,
And a gouty-footed old woman
In a dirty bathrobe and frayed slippers
Bringing in a cup of tea.

With many sighs and long pauses
He found a bit of blue sky on the day of the
Massacre of the Innocents.
He found a couple of lovers,
A meadow strewn with yellow flowers....

But he couldn't go on....O blue-winged
shivering one, he whispered,
Some days it's like using a white cane
And seeing mostly shadows
As one gropes for the words that come next!

(Charles Simic)
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Old 13th March 2017, 06:15 AM   #80
baron
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Ya know.....

The fallacies are flowing freely here. Did someone call "Fallacy Happy Hour" and they're being offered two-for-one?

It's possible to play a little football, build a tree house AND learn some history. "Won't someone think of the children??!!" Stuff and nonsense! What's the magic age when a ten-year-old is going to be okay to learn the actual history of his/her country? Obviously not 11. Fudbucker's got some special snowflakes who couldn't handle it at that age. 12? 13? Are you ready for an honest appraisal of history when you grow some hair on it?

Most adult Americans are ignorant of colonial and antebellum history as regards to slavery. I had a discussion a couple of months ago with a Confederacy Apologist ("I never owned no slaves, why should I feel bad" was the starting point) who could not wrap her head around the 1807 ban on importing slaves. Her response was "See, it was going away, anyway!"

What many people (educated adults, supposedly) miss is that for almost six decades there were Americans involved in slave husbandry! Breeding stock. They were bought and sold and raised like animals. Would I rather that my child and all children are not exposed to such horrors? Yes,... if they never happened. Since they did happen and are very real, though, I'll settle for them learning about them, preferably in school but I'll teach the topics at home if I have to.

I've heard nine year olds making ****** jokes (with the asterisks representing the n-word). I remember thinking it was funny to call someone a "kike" at age seven. I far-better remember the sitting down at the kitchen table and having to read the Britannica entry on the holocaust, because my mother decided if I was old enough to use racial slurs I was certainly old enough to know some of the history behind those terms and the mindset that produced them.
You really need to read the post I was replying to, because your counter-argument is moot. If you did read the post, and believe that 'learning history' is the same as children espousing hard political views, training children to be 'vigilant against fascism' and 'radicaliz[ing] them politically', then your argument is downgraded from moot to simply wrong.
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