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Old 13th March 2017, 09:03 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Your own claim, which we were working on, was 10^16 to 10^18.

10^15 is not roughly 10^16, nor even faintly 10^18, being one tenth the former, and one thousandth of the latter.

A goldfish is roughly human by that yardstick.
I also pointed to sources with precise values.

You can choose to pay attention to sketch values or go to the sources.

Use whichever you think is precise, which ever suits your fancy.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:07 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Here is the OP. Please point out that figure.



BTW, you totally borked your wiki links, but they don't mention such a figure either. Except for this one. Which simply doesn't have anything to do with synaptic anything. And this one, which cites 1018 as comparable to the human brain.
(1)
Click the first link you referenced from the original post, and scroll down to 10^15.

(2)
Read before assuming the worst.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:07 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
It appears that was a typo that put two links in one.


Right click and inspect the 10^18 link to see both links in one line.
I was already looking into that, actually. Looking at the exascale one, the 10^18 number appears.

Quote:
Exascale computing would be considered as a significant achievement in computer engineering, for it is believed to be the order of processing power of the human brain at neural level (functional might be lower). It is, for instance, the target power of the Human Brain Project.
It looks like you pulled 10^15 and 10^16 out of nowhere, though.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:09 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(1)
Click the first link you referenced from the original post, and scroll down to 10^15.

(2)
Read.
Synapses aren't transistors. Or directly equivalent to speed.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:09 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
I also pointed to sources with precise values.

You can choose to pay attention to sketch values or go to the sources.

Use whichever you think is precise, whicher suits your fancy.
Whicher is not a word, now you're just making stuff up........... oops,

nevermind, it fits with every other thread you've posted, then.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:11 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
I was already looking into that, actually. Looking at the exascale one, the 10^18 number appears.



It looks like you pulled 10^15 and 10^16 out of nowhere, though.
Go to the orders of magnitude link, and scroll down to 10^15.

I didn't conjure up any numbers, they are there.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
Whicher is not a word, now you're just making stuff up........... oops,

nevermind, it fits with every other thread you've posted, then.
Ehh. That's more a typo than a misused word, by the look of it. No need to stretch like that.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
As I probably said before, you just make **** up.
We now have a human brain calculating capacity measured in some known-only-to-Gordon parameter (let's call it horsepower, shall we?) in which the lowest end of the range is now revised to 1/ one thousandth the upper end (10^15 to 10^18). Well, that's really useful, isn't it.

What is does do nicely though is utterly demolish PGJ's bollocks from other threads proclaiming humans, and humans alone, as gods, because there are lots and lots of other animals which have computing power that falls within the range of greater than one thousandth of humans.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by desmirelle View Post
Whicher is not a word, now you're just making stuff up........... oops,

nevermind, it fits with every other thread you've posted, then.
Plesse pay attention.
My post was edited to fix the typo, precisely the same time you posted.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:13 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
We now have a human brain calculating capacity measured in some known-only-to-Gordon parameter (let's call it horsepower, shall we?) in which the lowest end of the range is now revised to 1/ one thousandth the upper end (10^15 to 10^18). Well, that's really useful, isn't it.

What is does do nicely though is utterly demolish PGJ's bollocks from other threads proclaiming humans, and humans alone, as gods, because there are lots and lots of other animals which have computing power that falls within the range of greater than one thousandth of humans.
See the Wikipedia source, regarding 10^15.
This was in the original post.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:14 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Go to the orders of magnitude link, and scroll down to 10^15.

I didn't conjure up any numbers, they are there.
Synapse number =/= speed.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:14 AM   #132
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Fixate on typos, PGJ, whilst your nonsense little makey-uppie world is being pulled apart around you.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:16 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fixate on typos, PGJ, whilst your nonsense little makey-uppie world is being pulled apart around you.
You chose to ignore the sources in the original post, and like a 2 year old, you proceed to render your expressions foolish
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
I also pointed to sources with precise values.
Nope.

Your links were, in order...

1. A pop-sci article unrelated to your ideas.
2. A youtube video.
3. A youtube video.
4. Two broken wiki links neither of which support you anyway.
5. IBM research which doesn't support you.
6. A youtube video.
7. Yourself.
8. Yourself.

#1 is useless.
#2 and #3 and #6. No thanks. yooboob is full of garbage.
#4 is not even vaguely related.
#5 does not support your ideas.
#7 and #8 are a prime example of circular reasoning.


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You can choose to pay attention to sketch values or go to the sources.

Use whichever you think is precise, whicher suits your fancy.
I fancy checking your sources. I find that they either do not say what you claim, are unrelated or are YOU.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:19 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You chose to ignore the sources in the original post, and like a 2 year old, you proceed to render your expressions foolish
Nope. I checked all of them. Your ideas are obvious baloney.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:21 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
He made up some convenient numbers. If we return to the op as he suggests, then he cites...

His citation does not support that but let's run with it.

He also says...

Since we have a range, let's go at the top end at 1018. Note that 1015 doesn't get a look-in. Why the top end of the range? Because PGJ wants an AI which at minimum equals human capability.

Inserting the values that PGJ claims in his OP we get...

snip

n = 26.6 years.

All of which ignores the limitations of Moore's Law.
And the fact that ops/sec might be a necessary condition for human level intelligence, but it is extremely unlikely to be sufficient.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:22 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope. I checked all of them. Your ideas are obvious baloney.
You may have missed the orders of magnitude Wikipedia URL, which gives minimum of 10^15.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:23 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fixate on typos, PGJ, whilst your nonsense little makey-uppie world is being pulled apart around you.
Ehh. No need to react like that, regardless. If you think that he's behaving badly, alright. He's done that already. Why descend to the level that you think that he's on, though? It gains you nothing and certainly doesn't help show that you are any better.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:25 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nope.

Your links were, in order...

1. A pop-sci article unrelated to your ideas.
2. A youtube video.
3. A youtube video.
4. Two broken wiki links neither of which support you anyway.
5. IBM research which doesn't support you.
6. A youtube video.
7. Yourself.
8. Yourself.

#1 is useless.
#2 and #3 and #6. No thanks. yooboob is full of garbage.
#4 is not even vaguely related.
#5 does not support your ideas.
#7 and #8 are a prime example of circular reasoning.


I fancy checking your sources. I find that they either do not say what you claim, are unrelated or are YOU.


Edited by Agatha:  Edited to reduce oversized picture


IBM's Dharmendra Modha would probably disagree.

His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPwIBiFVq0
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:27 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You may have missed the orders of magnitude Wikipedia URL, which gives minimum of 10^15.
Of the two wiki links you so ham-fistedly provided, only one mentions 1015, this one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders...itude_(numbers)

And it's entry reads...
Quote:
10−15[edit]
(0.000000000000001; 1000−5; short scale: one quadrillionth; long scale: one billiardth)

ISO: femto- (f)
Well, duh.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:27 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You may have missed the orders of magnitude Wikipedia URL, which gives minimum of 10^15.
10^15 synapses not synaptic ops/sec
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:29 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Of the two wiki links you so ham-fistedly provided, only one mentions 1015, this one...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders...itude_(numbers)

And it's entry reads...


Well, duh.
Uh, no:
Quote:
1015

(1000000000000000; 10005; short scale: one quadrillion; long scale: one thousand billion, or one billiard)
ISO: peta- (P)
  • Biology approximately 1015 synapses in the human brain [20]
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:30 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
IBM's Dharmendra Modha would probably disagree.

His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPwIBiFVq0
Nope. Not playing a game of chase the youtube for your amusement.

If you have a point then you should be able to type it right here in your own words instead of trying to get people to insert both feet into one trouser leg trying to figure out what it might be that you might perhaps mean.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:31 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You may have missed the orders of magnitude Wikipedia URL, which gives minimum of 10^15.
No, it doesn't. Bear in mind that synapses are very much not transistors. Similar in some ways, sure. Not the same, though, by a long shot.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:37 AM   #145
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I tire of this discourse.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove page-stretchy picture which was already posted 6 posts before this one. Do not spam or use disruptive formatting.


Take the words of IBM's Dharmemdra Modha, that deals with neuromophic chips.

His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPwIBiFVq0
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:38 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
IBM's Dharmendra Modha would probably disagree.

His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPwIBiFVq0
Little problem. He looks like he's referring to "brain-inspired computing" rather than hitting the 10^18 area. It's like a brain, not that it can necessarily reach the same power as a human brain by 2020.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:39 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Criticism is welcome/needed.
At least the 'welcome' part of that isn't true.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:40 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Little problem. He looks like he's referring to "brain-inspired computing" rather than hitting the 10^18 area. It's like a brain, not that it can necessarily reach the same power as a human brain by 2020.
Brain might be less than 10^18.

Keep in mind they publicized 10^14 a little while back.

Key thing here is they don't say consciousness by 2020, merely human brain power.

PS: brain inspired computing means a non trivial degree of human level brain power, according to modha.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:42 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
At least the 'welcome' part of that isn't true.
Sensible criticism is welcome.

Anyway, I am literally tired, just left gym.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:45 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
I tire of this discourse.
Of course you do. Having appealed for criticism, you don't much like it when you get it. Which begs the question. Why did you invite it?

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Take the words of IBM's Dharmemdra Modha, that deals with neuromophic chips.

His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UHPwIBiFVq0
Spamming the same link will not help your case. Cherry picking from that link will not help your case. Ignoring context will not help your case.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:47 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Sensible criticism is welcome.

Anyway, I am literally tired, just left gym.
"number of synapses does not equal number of operations per second" and "Your new claim is smaller by factor 10, compared to the lowest limit of your earlier claims" are sensible criticism.

What kind of comments were you hoping for?
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:48 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Of course you do. Having appealed for criticism, you don't much like it when you get it. Which begs the question. Why did you invite it?

Spamming the same link will not help your case. Cherry picking from that link will not help your case. Ignoring context will not help your case.
The context provided in the original post was human level brain power by at least 2020.

The context provided in dharmendra modha's video was, human level brain power by 2020.

So, the link does not "ignore the context".
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:50 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by hecd2 View Post
Uh, no:
I stand corrected.
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Old 13th March 2017, 09:50 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
"number of synapses does not equal number of operations per second" and "Your new claim is smaller by factor 10, compared to the lowest limit of your earlier claims" are sensible criticism.

What kind of comments were you hoping for?
(1)
See IBM data, or other data on web.

I have not the will power to repeat myself.

Either way, computational neuroscientist Dharmendra Modha from ibm expresses that human brain in a box (from ibm) will arrive by 2020.


(2)
PS:
I predicted sensible comments from a few beings here. (1-3 persons).

Otherwise I predicted garbage.

My predictions appear to be accurate thus far.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:21 AM   #155
Aridas
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Brain might be less than 10^18.
Sure. More specifically, it's fairly likely that the brain isn't perfectly efficient. It even may well be possible that present day computers, with sufficiently good code running, could outperform a human brain in pretty much every way that matters. With that said, though, you haven't backed up 10^15 or 10^16 validly. Nor did you actually address the point I had just made, which was that you seem to fairly certainly be engaging in a convenient misinterpretation of what Modha was saying and trying to twist it to seem like it supports the the points of yours that are actually in dispute, rather than points that aren't so much in dispute.

When it comes to the 10^18 number by 2020, regardless, I'm a little more surprised that you haven't been pointing towards China's project mentioned on the exascale wiki page which is apparently planned to be finished by 2020. That, at least, would be something something more solid for you to point towards, after all, rather than trying to grasp at straws like you've been doing.

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Keep in mind they publicized 10^14 a little while back.

Key thing here is they don't say consciousness by 2020, just human brain power.
Which still begs the questions of which measurements are being employed and why you are even bringing up consciousness.

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
PS: brain inspired computing means a non trivial degree of human level brain power, according to modha.
It seemed much more like brain inspired computing had a heck of a lot more to do with "how" the system works, given that it seems to be modeled on how brains work, rather than actually saying much about the raw power. Raw power might be potentially be reachable with such a model, but is, at best, a secondary concern there for why it's brain inspired computing.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:22 AM   #156
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The quote in context

Quote:
And the ultimate vision is, which I believe will be possible, before 2020 ends, is that we will be able to produce a brain in a box, which was the original vision of the Synapse Project. Ten billion neurons into {unintelligible} box. This is no longer science fiction, this is actually happening
So first, this occurs at 19:38 in the video, but PGJ wont tell you that.

Second, it is an aspiration and nothing more.

Third, the number he aspires to is 1010.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:24 AM   #157
fagin
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(1)
See IBM data, or other data on web.

I have not the will power to repeat myself.

Either way, computational neuroscientist Dharmendra Modha from ibm expresses that human brain in a box (from ibm) will arrive by 2020.


(2)
PS:
I predicted sensible comments from a few beings here. (1-3 persons).

Otherwise I predicted garbage.

My predictions appear to be accurate thus far.
So you believe it will be one or the other?
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:38 AM   #158
theprestige
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(A)
The calculation with minimum brain speed (instead of maximum) yields 3 years roughly.

Keep in mind the original post expressed AT LEAST 2020.

HINT: Replace 10^18 with 10^15 roughly.
10^18 is *three orders of magnitude* larger than 10^15. They are not at all "roughly" the same value. They are quite clearly two extremely different values, one of which is substantially smaller than the other. So much smaller that no useful calculations can be made by substituting the one for the other.

15 and 18 are roughly the same. Even 1500 and 1800 are roughly the same for calculations to within an order of magnitude. 10^15 and 10^18 are not roughly the same in the context of your inquiries.
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Old 13th March 2017, 11:30 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Ehh. No need to react like that, regardless. If you think that he's behaving badly, alright. He's done that already. Why descend to the level that you think that he's on, though? It gains you nothing and certainly doesn't help show that you are any better.
Fair comment. I'll try harder.

However, I warrant you haven't been dealing with this crap for the last couple of weeks. It does try one's patience eventually.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:06 PM   #160
ProgrammingGodJordan
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The quote in context



So first, this occurs at 19:38 in the video, but PGJ wont tell you that.

Second, it is an aspiration and nothing more.

Third, the number he aspires to is 1010.
That's odd.

I gathered that they had already achieved 10^14 in a relatively recent paper:

http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/RJ105...000=1489431888
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