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Old 13th March 2017, 12:09 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fair comment. I'll try harder.

However, I warrant you haven't been dealing with this crap for the last couple of weeks. It does try one's patience eventually.
It's like that little beetle in your avatar.
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Old 13th March 2017, 12:11 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Sure. More specifically, it's fairly likely that the brain isn't perfectly efficient. It even may well be possible that present day computers, with sufficiently good code running, could outperform a human brain in pretty much every way that matters. With that said, though, you haven't backed up 10^15 or 10^16 validly. Nor did you actually address the point I had just made, which was that you seem to fairly certainly be engaging in a convenient misinterpretation of what Modha was saying and trying to twist it to seem like it supports the the points of yours that are actually in dispute, rather than points that aren't so much in dispute.

When it comes to the 10^18 number by 2020, regardless, I'm a little more surprised that you haven't been pointing towards China's project mentioned on the exascale wiki page which is apparently planned to be finished by 2020. That, at least, would be something something more solid for you to point towards, after all, rather than trying to grasp at straws like you've been doing.



Which still begs the questions of which measurements are being employed and why you are even bringing up consciousness.



It seemed much more like brain inspired computing had a heck of a lot more to do with "how" the system works, given that it seems to be modeled on how brains work, rather than actually saying much about the raw power. Raw power might be potentially be reachable with such a model, but is, at best, a secondary concern there for why it's brain inspired computing.
Correction: +probably Japan

PS:
Raw power is not a "secondary concern".
Raw power is core to the success of deep artificial neural nets today.


PS (ii):
I expressed nothing about the brain being "perfectly efficient".

Anyway, artificial neural nets already exceed humans in many individual cognitive tasks. (as mentioned in the original post)

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Old 13th March 2017, 12:26 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
It's like that little beetle in your avatar.
Little? It was best part of 30mm long I reckon. That was a big ball of elephant dung it was pushing along. Oddly apt.
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Old 13th March 2017, 04:02 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
That's odd.

I gathered that they had already achieved 10^14 in a relatively recent paper:

http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/RJ105...000=1489431888
You didn't actually watch the video you cited? Oh dear.
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Old 13th March 2017, 04:04 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Little? It was best part of 30mm long I reckon. That was a big ball of elephant dung it was pushing along. Oddly apt.


How odd that PGJ resorts to avatar criticism when stumped.
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Old 13th March 2017, 04:06 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
That's odd.

I gathered that they had already achieved 10^14 in a relatively recent paper:

http://www.modha.org/blog/SC12/RJ105...000=1489431888
Might want to check the dates there bubba. They have rowed back on the claims big time.
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Old 13th March 2017, 04:30 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Little? It was best part of 30mm long I reckon. That was a big ball of elephant dung it was pushing along. Oddly apt.
I was obliquely referencing the aim of the little beastie, and yes, quite apt.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post


How odd that PGJ resorts to avatar criticism when stumped.
That might have been me, but it wasn't a criticism of the avatar.
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Old 13th March 2017, 08:01 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post


How odd that PGJ resorts to avatar criticism when stumped.
What avatar criticism?

I had not been stumped. Human level brain power will probably arrive by 2020.

For example, see this link posted in the original post: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exascale_computing

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Old 13th March 2017, 10:48 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Fair comment. I'll try harder.

However, I warrant you haven't been dealing with this crap for the last couple of weeks. It does try one's patience eventually.
I dealt with him a bit in at least one of his other threads and have dealt with... a number of other posters, like say, Navigator, who were just as bad or worse for extended periods of time. Admittedly, what tries my patience tends to be more along the lines of employing thoroughly fallacious lines of argument, especially after it's been clearly demonstrated that they're fallacious, repeatedly, and continually making up positions for me that cannot be validly reached from what I actually said, and there's really no need to point at anything else when pointing out why I hold such a low opinion when it come to that.
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:54 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
The original post pointed to sources, containing the precise values used.

Sources will vary human brain speed from roughly 10^16 to 10^18 synaptic operations per second.

This is why I used the word roughly in the original post.

So, at minimum, we have roughly 10^15, which yields alt least 3 years, which outputd 2020 at least.
So, at minimum, we have roughly 10^15, which yields alt least 3 years, which outputd 2020 at least. (quoting above so we all know what sentence is being noted). Outputd 2020 what? This is the kind of meaningless phrase/sentence part we are talking about. So, so often!!!!!!!
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Old 13th March 2017, 10:57 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Correction: +probably Japan
Hmm? From the wiki -

Quote:
China

China currently has the fastest two supercomputers in the world. China's first exascale supercomputer will enter service by 2020 according to the head of the school of computing at the National University of Defense Technology (NUDT). According to the national plan for the next generation of high performance computers, China will develop an exascale computer during the 13th Five-Year-Plan period (2016-2020). The government of Tianjin Binhai New Area, NUDT and the National Supercomputing Center in Tianjin are working on the project. The exascale supercomputer is planned to be named Tianhe-3.[3]
That sure seems to fit what I said. If you're going to add more, why not tack on all the other countries named, though, rather than just Japan?


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
PS:
Raw power is not a "secondary concern".
Raw power is core to the success of deep artificial neural nets today.
When it comes to why it is being called brain inspired computing, it's definitely a secondary concern. The raw power is certainly a concern for many things, but not really with regards to the naming.


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
PS (ii):
I expressed nothing about the brain being "perfectly efficient".
Did I say you did?

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Anyway, artificial neural nets already exceed humans in many individual cognitive tasks. (as mentioned in the original post)
Sure. I was speaking notably more comprehensively, though.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:01 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Hmm? From the wiki -



That sure seems to fit what I said. If you're going to add more, why not tack on all the other countries named, though, rather than just Japan?




When it comes to why it is being called brain inspired computing, it's definitely a secondary concern. The raw power is certainly a concern for many things, but not really with regards to the naming.




Did I say you did?



Sure. I was speaking notably more comprehensively, though.
Keep in mind that it was I that provided that link.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:03 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
So, at minimum, we have roughly 10^15, which yields alt least 3 years, which outputd 2020 at least. (quoting above so we all know what sentence is being noted). Outputd 2020 what? This is the kind of meaningless phrase/sentence part we are talking about. So, so often!!!!!!!
Present more examples...
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:12 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Present more examples...
Almost as though it's the first time it has been mentioned!

"Outputd" isn't a word. What did you mean to type?
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:14 AM   #175
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This is getting more like Time Cube by the minute.

What programming have you done?
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:16 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Almost as though it's the first time it has been mentioned!

"Outputd" isn't a word. What did you mean to type?
I asked my 3 year old nephew to correct that typo.

He wrote 'outputted'.

You may or may not learn from him.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:22 AM   #177
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Your 3 year old nephew should not be woken up at 2 AM to be asked silly questions...
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:31 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
I asked my 3 year old nephew to correct that typo.

He wrote 'outputted'.

You may or may not learn from him.
You are responsible for what goes out under your name on the forum. It is also against the rules to use someone else's account, as you have just said your nephew did. Mind you, the chances are your nephew might have written a more meaningful OP.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:34 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
.......I had not been stumped. Human level brain power will probably arrive by 2020...........
No, because being caught claiming that 10^15 is roughly 10^16 isn't being stumped at all, is it.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:36 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Purpoise of life
Your 3 year old nephew should not be woken up at 2 AM to be asked silly questions...
He was already up.

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Old 14th March 2017, 12:44 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, because being caught claiming that 10^15 is roughly 10^16 isn't being stumped at all, is it.
(1)
That range was a sketch.
With that sketch I linked to a range of precise values.

You may or may not choose to approach the values in the links.

Choose whatever values suit your agenda/fancy.


(2)
Anyway, roughly may mean approximately, or in the area of.

Conclusion: The human brain may be larger than 10^15..., but I included 10^15 in the calculations, as a lower bound, hence "at least 2020" expression.

You may continue to argue on non issues, but I shan't any longer participate.

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Old 14th March 2017, 12:55 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
..........Choose whatever values suit your agenda/fancy.........
Yep, doing that is precisely what got you in this mess.
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Old 14th March 2017, 12:58 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
........Anyway, roughly may mean approximately, or in the area of.........
Thanks. I speak English much better than you. I know what roughly means. It doesn't mean "10% of".

"This 100 storey skyscraper we're building............we've built 10 floors, so we're roughly finished."

"We've run 2 and a half miles, so we've roughly finished the marathon."
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Old 14th March 2017, 01:00 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by MikeG
Little? It was best part of 30mm long I reckon. That was a big ball of elephant dung it was pushing along. Oddly apt.
...

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Old 14th March 2017, 01:04 AM   #185
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PGJ could you keep your images within a width of 1000 pixels (it's a forum rule) because you mess with the page formatting. 800 is better because it then works with mobile devices.
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Old 14th March 2017, 01:29 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
Keep in mind that it was I that provided that link.
Sadly, that doesn't actually say all that much. I've seen a lot of people, including people who I consider to be quite intelligent, provide links that either don't even remotely say what they claim that they said (such as providing a link to a story about a woman who used a voting machine with calibration issues that were apparently fixed right after when it was brought to the staff's attention, but still managed to vote for the candidate that they wanted to back up the claim that there was massive voter fraud on the scale that all the votes in some largely Republican precincts were counted as votes for the Democrats was just one memorable example) or that managed to directly contradict their claims, as has happened many, many times on these forums. Confirmation bias is something that one should always be on guard against.

ETA: Of course, there's a real question left here about which link you're talking about. I was addressing your usage of the brain inspired computing one more specifically. If you were actually referring to the exascale one, I'd pretty much just be responding by continuing to wonder why the actual arguments and claims that you've invoked have been you pretty much just grasping at straws when you've got something at least decent to use as a base point.
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Old 14th March 2017, 01:39 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(1)
That range was a sketch.
With that sketch I linked to a range of precise values.

You may or may not choose to approach the values in the links.

Choose whatever values suit your agenda/fancy.
You still have yet to give any reason to accept that 10^15 or 10^16 were valid to use in the first place, given that your 10^15 referred to something notably different than what you claimed and your 10^16 still appears to be pulled out of thin air, given that nothing in either of those links supports it at all.


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(2)
Anyway, roughly may mean approximately, or in the area of.

Conclusion: The human brain may be larger than 10^15..., but I included 10^15 in the calculations, as a lower bound, hence "at least 2020" expression.
Again, what is your lower bound actually based on at this point, if not you trying to cover up your mistakes? You've utterly failed to support it meaningfully.
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Old 14th March 2017, 01:48 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
You still have yet to give any reason to accept that 10^15 or 10^16 were valid to use in the first place, given that your 10^15 referred to something notably different than what you claimed and your 10^16 still appears to be pulled out of thin air, given that nothing in either of those links supports it at all.



Again, what is your lower bound actually based on at this point, if not you trying to cover up your mistakes? You've utterly failed to support it meaningfully.

How my 3 year old nephew explains it:


(1) The human brain is at least 10^15... in computational size. (as seen in the original post)

(2) Using this lower bound, we can use formulae to obtain some minimum year 2020. (As mentioned in the original post)

You may or may not learn something from my 3 year old nephew.

(You may choose to proceed in pursuing that non issue, but I shan't any longer partake)

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Old 14th March 2017, 01:53 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
This is getting more like Time Cube by the minute.

What programming have you done?
Some items follow:

[i] "A programming language of my own creation": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennett/CONSCIENCIA

[ii] "A deep residual neural network framework par HEART IRREGULARITY DETECTION": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...ETECTION-MODEL

[iii] "A.... n fold orthographic quasicrystal-structured neural network scan behaviour pattern routine": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...NEURAL-NETWORK

[iv] "A scratch written (basic), regressive/progressive propagation therein gradient descent aligned model": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...ETIC-SENTIENCE

[v] "An error-space complex optimal datum sequence inference mutation schematic": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...H-OSCILLATIONS

[vi] "An operating system interface:"
https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...MOUS-INTERFACE


Figure above: OS interface


[vii] "A simplistic simulation in 'life' via John Conway rule set."
https://github.com/JordanMicahBennett/AUTOMATANISM



FOOTNOTE:

Of the above random list, the last item is the least challenging to encode.

It intrigues, for it is a reminder that simplicity may yield complexity.
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Old 14th March 2017, 02:02 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
How my 3 year old nephew explains it:

(1) The human brain is at least 10^15... in computational size. (as seen in the original post)........
Maybe you could get your 3 year old nephew to carefully explain to you that if this is the figure for the lower bound of the human brain, then you shouldn't have used "10^16 to 10^18" in all your claims prior to this thread.

Maybe your three year old nephew could also explain to you that 10^18 is a thousand times higher a number than 10^15, and that therefore it is inconceivable that human brains vary between your upper and lower bounds. One or more of these figures is made up.

Your 3 year old relative might also help you understand that 10^15 is not "roughly" 10^16 as you claimed. The former is only 10% of the latter.
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Old 14th March 2017, 02:18 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
How my 3 year old nephew explains it:
Which does nothing to suggest that it's right.


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(1) The human brain is at least 10^15... in computational size. (as seen in the original post)
Except that you completely failed to demonstrate this. The rough number of synapses =/= computational size. It can be considered related, and likely could be used as part of an equation to reach such things, but your attempt to use it as is without so much as a hint of justification for why you think doing so is appropriate is a huge sign that you're not even trying to employ valid logic and are just trying to feed your confirmation bias. With that said, shamelessly repeating yourself while continually failing to address the counter arguments doesn't make for any better an argument than invoking the wisdom of a 3 year old.

ETA on this part: Incidentally, lying about how you actually said that
Quote:
The human brain computes roughly 10^16 to 10^18 synaptic operations per second.
in the original post rather than talking about it being at least 10^15 in computational size isn't a point in your favor.


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(2) Using this lower bound, we can use formulae to obtain some minimum year 2020. (As mentioned in the original post)
When your premises fail, don't expect your conclusion to be regarded as trustworthy.

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
You may or may not learn something from my 3 year old nephew.
Should I be impressed at all at the fact that your 3 year old can parrot you? I certainly don't have other reason to take your 3 year old seriously.

Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
(You may choose to proceed in pursuing that non issue, but I shan't any longer partake)
You'd have much less of a hard time if you just admitted your error and the conversation just moved on from there. Even if your conclusion is correct for other reasons, when one invokes bad logic, one should be prepared to be called out on their bad logic. Simply running away in the face of being completely unable to defend your claim isn't really a good thing, regardless.
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So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

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Old 14th March 2017, 02:43 AM   #192
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In the IBM article I only see references to "brain inspired" not "human brain inspired". Did I miss something?

As a former IBMer and IBM customer I would suggest that relying on a statement by an IBM employee stating that IBM will have a product by a given year is problematic.
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Old 14th March 2017, 02:57 AM   #193
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I had a quick look at item iii - which looks like a basic exercise in using Unity in 2D. Neuralnetwork has been stuck in a classname or name but that's it. 2 minutes I won't get back.
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Old 14th March 2017, 03:46 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I had a quick look at item iii - which looks like a basic exercise in using Unity in 2D. Neuralnetwork has been stuck in a classname or name but that's it. 2 minutes I won't get back.
I'm sure we did stuff like that with Spirograph when I was a kid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph
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Old 14th March 2017, 03:49 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan View Post
His statement: "Before the end of 2020 we will be able to produce a brain in a box".
Assuming that this is an exact quote and that he's referring to the number of synapses, then you do understand that saying "a brain in a box" is not equivalent to saying "a human brain in a box", don't you? Mice, for example, have brains, and far fewer synapses than humans do.
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Old 14th March 2017, 05:26 AM   #196
Aridas
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Maybe you could get your 3 year old nephew to carefully explain to you that if this is the figure for the lower bound of the human brain, then you shouldn't have used "10^16 to 10^18" in all your claims prior to this thread.

Maybe your three year old nephew could also explain to you that 10^18 is a thousand times higher a number than 10^15, and that therefore it is inconceivable that human brains vary between your upper and lower bounds. One or more of these figures is made up.

Your 3 year old relative might also help you understand that 10^15 is not "roughly" 10^16 as you claimed. The former is only 10% of the latter.
More specifically, the 10^16 to 10^18 refers to something completely different than the 10^15. Saying that the 10^15 is roughly the 10^16 is utterly fallacious from the get go because they're entirely different things, before the orders of magnitude issue can even come into play.
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Old 14th March 2017, 05:57 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I had a quick look at item iii - which looks like a basic exercise in using Unity in 2D. Neuralnetwork has been stuck in a classname or name but that's it. 2 minutes I won't get back.
Small correction: Unity 3D was used in item iii.

For typical neural network code, see some other items, like items ii, iv or v:


Originally Posted by ProgrammingGodJordan
Some items follow:

[i] "A programming language of my own creation": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennett/CONSCIENCIA

[ii] "A deep residual neural network framework par HEART IRREGULARITY DETECTION": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...ETECTION-MODEL

[iii] "A.... n fold orthographic quasicrystal-structured neural network scan behaviour pattern routine": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...NEURAL-NETWORK

[iv] "A scratch written (basic), regressive/progressive propagation therein gradient descent aligned model": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...ETIC-SENTIENCE

[v] "An error-space complex optimal datum sequence inference mutation schematic": https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...H-OSCILLATIONS

[vi] "An operating system interface:"
https://github.com/JordanMicahBennet...MOUS-INTERFACE

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Old 14th March 2017, 05:59 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Assuming that this is an exact quote and that he's referring to the number of synapses, then you do understand that saying "a brain in a box" is not equivalent to saying "a human brain in a box", don't you? Mice, for example, have brains, and far fewer synapses than humans do.
They had already achieved 10^14...

Last edited by ProgrammingGodJordan; 14th March 2017 at 06:03 AM.
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Old 14th March 2017, 06:07 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
More specifically, the 10^16 to 10^18 refers to something completely different than the 10^15. Saying that the 10^15 is roughly the 10^16 is utterly fallacious from the get go because they're entirely different things, before the orders of magnitude issue can even come into play.
My 3 year old nephew understands that the range was

(1) not my conjuring.
(2) the precise range is pointed out in sources linked.
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Old 14th March 2017, 06:23 AM   #200
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I don't believe you.
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