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Old 18th March 2017, 07:01 AM   #41
A'isha
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I wouldn't eat Kosher either.
As Darth Rotor indicated, you're missing out.
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Old 18th March 2017, 07:25 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
As Darth Rotor indicated, you're missing out.
If I can stand missing out on eating bacon, I can stand missing out on Kosher. The willpower involved in the non-eating of bacon is one of the highest human achievements.
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Old 18th March 2017, 07:28 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Well done. If that had any bearing on the topic I'd be tempted to discuss it further, but having people pray for you is unrelated to actively supporting a religious practice. 'I had not realised' this concept would confuse you.
People praying for other people is unrelated to religious practice, but people praying before they kill a chicken is
religious practice
that you
prefer not to encourage, directly or otherwise.
You had not realised that this would confuse me? That merely adds another mystery to the many conundrums embedded in your philosophical meditations.
Obvious straw man is obvious.
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Old 18th March 2017, 07:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Obvious straw man is obvious.
Invisible straw man is invisible.
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:02 PM   #45
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I just eat whatever's put in front of me. I only prepare food that comes from sources meeting criteria I care about, but I'd never refuse food that was already prepared by someone else on the grounds that it violated those personal standards.

That's just me. My criteria tend to be more about the humanity demonstrated toward the meat-animals when they were living (as well as when killed) than who has said what hocus pocus over them in their last hours. I don't like to give money to farms or companies that enable other inhumane practices. But personal standards are personal standards. Who am i to quibble with anybody? Who are they to quibble with me?

Kum-ba-ya, and all that crap.
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:10 PM   #46
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Just to double check - there hasn't been verification of the account in the opening post?
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:58 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just to double check - there hasn't been verification of the account in the opening post?
My friend's cousin's coworker's boyfriend's former roommate's drug dealer's dog groomer's landlady's kid is in that class and heard the whole thing!
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Old 18th March 2017, 02:23 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
This is a story that has been simmering on and off in the Australian media for some time. If it is as reported, then it is pretty disturbing.



https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/3466...-family/#page1

I don't believe it. I think the news agency put out just enough facts to purposefully confuse people so that it would seem like they had a real story.
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Old 18th March 2017, 02:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I just eat whatever's put in front of me. I only prepare food that comes from sources meeting criteria I care about, but I'd never refuse food that was already prepared by someone else on the grounds that it violated those personal standards.

As a tangent, I remember an episode of Top Chef Masters in which the challenge was to prepare a dish using various live insects as an ingredient. One of the chefs was a Buddhist who was willing to cook with animals that other people had killed, but would not kill anything himself. He ended up leaving his insects alive on the plate, in a container that gave the diner the option of killing them themselves and adding them as a garnish, if I'm remembering correctly. Or maybe he just used them as decoration.
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Old 18th March 2017, 04:52 PM   #50
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More male teachers would help
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:13 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
More male teachers would help
Help? As in "make up more plausible sounding ******** to fob off on the gullible"? Would more male teachers prevent biased individuals from making **** up and peddling it to agenda-driven right-leaning news media for Paulina-istas to repeat in their right wing echo chambers?

Sounds like a plan.
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Old 19th March 2017, 03:48 AM   #52
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Well to be fair I can remember at least two incident of kids which threatened to kill our teacher, and that was waaaay before any islamic terrorism was so in the news. It comes mostly down to kids sometimes being immature and liking making adult uncomfortable (and being sometimes messed up).

So a report that a kid threaten to behead a teacher would not surprise me. it would surprise me if there was not one : young kid are not deaf and can see what makes adult twitch and uneasy and reuse that at the first opportunity to see more adult twitch.

Same as throwing "vagina" or "sado maso" "menstruation" in the middle of a conversation to make everybody uneasy. Not that I ever intentionally did such things mind you.

What I think is disputable and would require verification is that a teacher did indeed quit on that. i doubt it, and if verified : yeah that teach is a weak ass idiot and should not teach.
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Old 19th March 2017, 04:01 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just to double check - there hasn't been verification of the account in the opening post?
Of course not.

My sister is the principal of a school in western Sydney, where almost all the students are middle eastern, Pacific Islanders or aborigines. So far she hasn't been threatened with beheading, being eaten or being speared. We will have to get the Murdoch press on to this to find out what she has been doing wrong.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:11 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If I can stand missing out on eating bacon, I can stand missing out on Kosher. The willpower involved in the non-eating of bacon is one of the highest human achievements.
How would you feel about serving in the Navy?
Every ship I served aboard had been blessed in a religious service and sprinkled with holy water.
It was repeated every time the ship recommissioned after a refit.

Or is it only meat that counts.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:24 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Just to double check - there hasn't been verification of the account in the opening post?
Unsurprisingly, the converse:

Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yeah I'd like to see some further reports before having an opinion.
Your wish is my command
No cases of 'religiously motivated violence' at Punchbowl Public: NSW Education


Quote:
Barrister and Muslim community advocate Bilal Rauf believes "there are some underlying aspects to (Mrs A’s) claims which appear, on the surface, questionable".

"I think there is an element of Punchbowl being unduly targeted,” Mr Rauf told SBS.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:25 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
They've been apparently trying to stir up outrage against this one school for years.
The Daily Telegraph has been ranting so hard for years about the "Islamic terrorist crisis" such that their spittle foams and flies around the room when you open the pages. They have condemned hijab as a torture tool which leads inevitably to female genital mutilation for young boys and honest Christian businessmen. They believe Aboriginal Australians, Indians and Maoris who convert to Islam automatically become "Arabs". And even just being in the same room as halal food, their cause celebre, will make you run screaming to get on the next plane to the Middle East and blow yourself up in an airport for the cause of Islam. The Daily Tele is as near as dammit Australia's Breitbart. It's not worth buying to tear it up for ****-paper.

Quote:
Hmmm, I'm starting to suspect her "complaints" were motivated by something else entirely.
I would HIGHLY suspect this "Mrs A" teacher at Punchbowl Primary School does not even exist. This sort of thing is typical of the Daily Tele.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:02 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
... I make the choice that I don't want religion to play a part in my life. The Muslim thinks it's important for a prayer to be said when the animal is killed and that's fine, I respect their right to hold that opinion; I think it's important for no prayer to be said, and people must respect my opinion in the same way.
I don't understand this. If you are an atheist then surely it shouldn't matter to you if they pray or swear like a sailor while preparing the meat or even if they are gagged during the whole process. Isn't is all just words to you? What difference do you think it makes to the quality of the food if somebody exercises their right to free speech while preparing it?
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:22 AM   #58
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I completely believe the story in the OP 100%.

Not because of Muslims but because I wouldn't put anything past primary school kids. They are terrifying.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My friend's cousin's coworker's boyfriend's former roommate's drug dealer's dog groomer's landlady's kid is in that class and heard the whole thing!
Well, you're closer than me.

This guy on the Internet I don't really knowziz friend's cousin's coworker's boyfriend's former roommate's drug dealer's dog groomer's landlady's kid is in that class and heard the whole thing!
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:42 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand this. If you are an atheist then surely it shouldn't matter to you if they pray or swear like a sailor while preparing the meat or even if they are gagged during the whole process. Isn't is all just words to you? What difference do you think it makes to the quality of the food if somebody exercises their right to free speech while preparing it?
Do you really not understand this? Because it's difficult for me to imagine a more clear statement. I do not wish to support or encourage religious practice. That's it. I could add more, but there is no need. I seriously don't understand how this can be confusing, or cause anybody to believe that I think a prayer affects the taste of the meat.

Actually, I do have an idea. I think that anything that can be seen as criticism of Islam, not matter how innocuously voiced or inoffensive, must be challenged at all costs, no matter how ridiculous the counter argument. If I had said that I do not want my Christian friends to say a blessing before dinner I can guarantee that nobody would accuse me of believing that their blessing would affect the quality of the food. Nor would they have any trouble in understanding why I held the position I did, even if they did not share it. Of course, the analogy can be stretched further, to me personally saying a prayer or indulging in religious practice. After all, it's not like it could have any effect. Here, too, nobody would be confused by my assertions; that sort of affected puzzlement is reserved only for commentary on Islam.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:48 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't understand this. If you are an atheist then surely it shouldn't matter to you if they pray or swear like a sailor while preparing the meat or even if they are gagged during the whole process. Isn't is all just words to you? What difference do you think it makes to the quality of the food if somebody exercises their right to free speech while preparing it?
I don't get whay so many people are prescribing how he should feel about this. It's not as if being an atheist somehow makes you think the same way about everything as other atheists.
It's not about the quality of the food, it's about the ritual.
He doesn't want to promote religion, and he feels that kosher and halal food promote religiosity.
People make choices on more than cold logical cost analyses. Does it somehow win a poster skeptic points if they act like mr. Spock every time someone has a like or dislike of something?

ETA: pre-empted by the man himself.

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Old 19th March 2017, 06:51 AM   #62
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I'd also wager a Christian that didn't want a Muslim prayer said over his food or vice-versa wouldn't have to explain themselves.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:55 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I don't get whay so many people are prescribing how he should feel about this. It's not as if being an atheist somehow makes you think the same way about everything as other atheists.
It's not about the quality of the food, it's about the ritual.
He doesn't want to promote religion, and he feels that kosher and halal food promote religiosity.
People make choices on more than cold logical cost analyses. Does it somehow win a poster skeptic points if they act like mr. Spock every time someone has a like or dislike of something?
Indeed.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:58 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'd also wager a Christian that didn't want a Muslim prayer said over his food or vice-versa wouldn't have to explain themselves.
Yes, but in that case, with the odd exception of some CofE Christians, they presumably do believe in a deity.

It's possible to believe that such a deity might be offended by a "blasphemous" prayer.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:08 AM   #65
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I personally am fine with baron's decisions. They're his choices, and it's not like they're bothering anyone (though I still think he's missing out on some great food!). It's not like he's advocating that halal and/or kosher food be banned or anything (and he even made it clear that he doesn't right in his very first post on the subject).

I've had my arguments with him in the past, and as JoeBentley said there's certainly a context to objections about halal that the dietary rules of other religions don't have (such as kosher, which has the same rules of animal slaughter as halal). That context for halal, in fact, is how we got onto this tangent in the first places, with "Mrs. A's" hysterical complaints about halal food being served at some special school events.

But there's literally no reason I can see to dogpile baron over what he said, especially considering how he went out of his way to make it clear that he was talking about his own personal choices on the subject and did not object to what anyone else chose.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:08 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Yes, but in that case, with the odd exception of some CofE Christians, they presumably do believe in a deity.

It's possible to believe that such a deity might be offended by a "blasphemous" prayer.
I think the desire to not want to perpetrate or support* religious mythology should be given the same level of respect.

*To be 100% absolutely across the board clear I am NOT talking about restriction, preventing, or hindering any religious practices in ANY way.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:25 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you really not understand this? Because it's difficult for me to imagine a more clear statement. I do not wish to support or encourage religious practice. That's it. I could add more, but there is no need. < ... the more that was added snipped ... >
How far do you want to take this? Is a simple "don't ask, don't tell" policy sufficient or does food have to be certified "prayer free" before you will look at it. Maybe we should bring in the thought police in case somebody is having religious thoughts while preparing the food.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:32 AM   #68
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Come on, everyone. Can we please get back to mocking this idiot newspaper and their fake bigoted stories, and stop with the hassling of baron for his (pretty much unobjectional) personal opinions about food?
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Old 19th March 2017, 08:10 AM   #69
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If everyone's okay with it I'll continue this side-discussion in the "Effects of Atheism" thread, as I think it's a logical offshoot of stuff being discussed there.

If anyone objects and wants it spun off into it's own thread PM a Mod and you'll get no complaint from me.
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:42 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Kosher meat is slaughtered the exact same way as halal meat. The only difference is the particular prayer that's said during the process.

EDIT: That's why I'm always darkly amused when people like Pamela Geller want to ban halal slaughter methods.
Ignorance must be a truly wonderful thing as so many people choose it gladly!!!!!
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:46 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
In the Netherlands, people like Wilders love to repeat the claim that many teachers dare not teach the Holocaust due to pressure from Muslim students. That claim is only founded on one survey among 300-something teachers, of which only one teacher said he refrained from teaching the Holocaust. Oh, and the students who pressured him were not Muslims, but Neo-Nazis.

So, colour me skeptical about this story as well.
If the students are pressuring the teacher they need to be expelled and, depending on how and the laws involved, arrested!!!!!! And have their Nazi flagpoles stuffed fully up their right wing rectums!!!!! No lube!!!!
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:14 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I'd also wager a Christian that didn't want a Muslim prayer said over his food or vice-versa wouldn't have to explain themselves.
You might be surprised, and in fact this topic is pretty much dealt with in 1st Corinthians 8.

Paul pretty much states that it's not an issue, i.e. it's not of benefit to the Christian, but also not a negative to them. What he cautioned on was being careful not to have others without your knowledge see your actions and fall because of it, though that likely has more of an issue with the exact topic of food offered to idols than halal food, as it's unlikely that seeing a christian eating a kebab is going to make someone fall.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:14 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I bless this thread
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:42 AM   #74
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It certainly seems like there might have been such problems at the school recently.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...ddcd356106a4f9

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/natio...exclusion.html
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:54 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It certainly seems like there might have been such problems at the school recently.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...ddcd356106a4f9

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/natio...exclusion.html
They're actually about a different school entirely (Punchbowl Boys High School, not Punchbowl Public School where "Mrs. A" supposedly taught). I'm not sure if there were additional alleged threats to staff at the high school that NSW Education Department Head Mark Scott was referring to, or if he for some unknown reason got the schools mixed up and is (bizarrely) blaming the principal of the high school for not passing on the supposed threats at the primary school.

EDIT: Aha, found something. This article at The Australian does say there were alleged threats at the high school (which apparently no one, either the administration or the supposed recipients of the threats, reported to police). The article also notes that the high school has been a poor-performing hotbed of drug dealing and violent crime for long enough that barbed wire around the school was only recently removed.
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Old 20th March 2017, 11:49 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
I bless this thread
Amen, brother.
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:19 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
If I had said that I do not want my Christian friends to say a blessing before dinner I can guarantee that nobody would accuse me of believing that their blessing would affect the quality of the food. Nor would they have any trouble in understanding why I held the position I did, even if they did not share it. Of course, the analogy can be stretched further, to me personally saying a prayer or indulging in religious practice. After all, it's not like it could have any effect. Here, too, nobody would be confused by my assertions; that sort of affected puzzlement is reserved only for commentary on Islam.
But that's not what you were saying. You were saying you wouldn't buy meat from a Muslim butcher because it had been prayed over. Nothing about your Muslim friends blessing your food before dinner. (By the way, do your Muslim friends attempt to perform that ceremony at dinner with you? You're right to say no.)

What you were saying was equivalent to this: I never buy meat from Christian butchers because it might have been prayed over before I bought it. I think that's silly. Who cares?
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:29 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Who cares?
baron. Why do you care that he cares?
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:33 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
But that's not what you were saying. You were saying you wouldn't buy meat from a Muslim butcher because it had been prayed over. Nothing about your Muslim friends blessing your food before dinner. (By the way, do your Muslim friends attempt to perform that ceremony at dinner with you? You're right to say no.)

What you were saying was equivalent to this: I never buy meat from Christian butchers because it might have been prayed over before I bought it. I think that's silly. Who cares?
That's not quite the same - prayers are an integral part of Halal and Kosher butchery, but there isn't a specific "Christian" butchery.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:54 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not quite the same - prayers are an integral part of Halal and Kosher butchery, but there isn't a specific "Christian" butchery.
I wholly agree. In fact no kind of ritual slaughter is the same as
I do not want my Christian friends to say a blessing before dinner
Quite right too, but why compare butchery with people saying a blessing before dinner?
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