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Old 18th March 2017, 09:58 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'll just point out once again what everyone has known about walls from Babylonia onward: they only work if they're manned, every foot of them. Humans are very good at climbing, and everything that has ever been built has also been climbed. Especially quickly if the thing built is not supposed to be climbed.
We don't need to man it, we need to laser-monkey it!
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Old 18th March 2017, 11:08 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
National security, obviously you don't understand it.

National security?!

$21 billion or more and years to build with our hard-earned tax dollars and just 40 minutes or less to cut through the so-called wall with cheap tools.


Border Wall Breached 9,000 times. Does it even work?

(CNN)While President Trump and government officials develop plans for a "wall" between the U.S. and Mexico, the agency responsible for securing the border is uncertain how successful the current fence has been.

The 654 miles of fence already lining the border have been breached more than 9,200 times between roughly 2010 and 2015, according to a report released Thursday by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), citing records from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politics/gao-border-wall/


Just another clear example how Trump managed to dupe his supporters.

Last edited by skyeagle409; 18th March 2017 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 18th March 2017, 11:16 PM   #43
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Trump border wall: Texans receiving letters about their land

Trump border wall: Texans receiving letters about their land


Trump won Texas in the presidential election and that's just his way of telling Texans thanks for voting for me in order to take you to the cleaners.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its called eminent domain, it won't take years.
It still adds to the costs and timescales if there are lots of people who dispute the government's valuations.

As an aside, I was tangentially involved in a compensation valuation for compulsory purchase of land associated with building part of a motorway (the M20) whilst on work experience as a 16-year old.

I didn't know what I wanted to do, so ended up with a chartered surveyors office. Our client disputed the government's valuation and I sat in on the negotiations. At one point, I asked how there was such a difference in the estimated value (100k vs 140k) and asked how the government representative arrived at his numbers.

He took the last selling price, the average monthly inflation rate in the area and multiplied them by the number of months. In surprise, I pointed out that this was equivalent to simple interest and you needed compound interest. I then had to explain what this was.

It was easy to show that his approach was wrong, but very hard to get over the concept of raising something to a power, and also that if the inflation rate is 1%, then you need to raise 1.01 to the power of n, not 0.01...

My host had spotted something was wrong but they all used massive books of tables of compound interest, so that took a long time, whilst I had a scientific calculator and knew that basic sum... I probably shortened that negotiation by about an hour. I was in my employer's good books for that.

It taught me a useful lesson about work and the possibility of cockups.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its called eminent domain, it won't take years.
I don't think that is correct. There are potentially hundreds of cases that would have to make their way throught the courts. Also, Trump's promise that Mexico would pay for the wall is hard to follow through on. He wants to make it more difficult for Mexicans working in the US to send money back home to relatives. In most cases, those people are citizens or are in the US legally. He hopes to force Mexico into paying by not allowing workers who are in the US legally to send money home. Nice. That plan would get tied up in the courts, too. Also, it would piss off a whole lot of bankers who would be burdened by new regulations regarding money transfers to Mexico. All those billions for the wall will come from the U.S. Treasury. Maybe, Trump can spend the money he's wasting going to FL every weekend, or on keeping his family in NYC on the wall. that would be at least a drop or two in the bucket.
Even if everything went the way he wants it, it would still be years before a wall could be completed.
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:17 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its called eminent domain, it won't take years.
No, it's called immigrant domain. That's why they want to put a wall there.
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:33 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
I don't think that is correct. There are potentially hundreds of cases that would have to make their way throught the courts. Also, Trump's promise that Mexico would pay for the wall is hard to follow through on. He wants to make it more difficult for Mexicans working in the US to send money back home to relatives. In most cases, those people are citizens or are in the US legally. He hopes to force Mexico into paying by not allowing workers who are in the US legally to send money home. Nice. That plan would get tied up in the courts, too. Also, it would piss off a whole lot of bankers who would be burdened by new regulations regarding money transfers to Mexico. All those billions for the wall will come from the U.S. Treasury. Maybe, Trump can spend the money he's wasting going to FL every weekend, or on keeping his family in NYC on the wall. that would be at least a drop or two in the bucket.
Even if everything went the way he wants it, it would still be years before a wall could be completed.
Even if they don't make it to court there are still negotiations and valuations to be performed. Agreeing on the valuation of a stretch of land is easier if only two parties are involved rather than thousands. There are only so many cases each lawyer can handle.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:00 AM   #48
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Considering the events of the past week (three breaches), I don't think many people would have a problem with that wall being built around the White House instead.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:21 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
National security?!

$21 billion or more and years to build with our hard-earned tax dollars and just 40 minutes or less to cut through the so-called wall with cheap tools.


Border Wall Breached 9,000 times. Does it even work?

(CNN)While President Trump and government officials develop plans for a "wall" between the U.S. and Mexico, the agency responsible for securing the border is uncertain how successful the current fence has been.

The 654 miles of fence already lining the border have been breached more than 9,200 times between roughly 2010 and 2015, according to a report released Thursday by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), citing records from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politics/gao-border-wall/


Just another clear example how Trump managed to dupe his supporters.
That might help in the landowner court cases. If the existing wall is ineffective, a judge might not rule that the taking of land is for the public good.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:40 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Eminent, not imminent.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:42 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
That might help in the landowner court cases. If the existing wall is ineffective, a judge might not rule that the taking of land is for the public good.
One can wonder, but it is the left that has pushed the ever-weakening of the public use concept, to include ending blight in the 1970s, and then taking perfectly fine housing areas because the land will pay more taxes being used by a rich person for business (Kelo decision). Trump supports all this by the way, as part of his "I used to be a Democrat for decades doing most of my business in land deals inside Democrat-controlled regions" period.

These are the same Democrats who rage about religion getting in the way of decorating a cake but suddenly view it as a holy right when it gets in the way of a pipeline.
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Old 19th March 2017, 08:18 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
One can wonder, but it is the left that has pushed the ever-weakening of the public use concept, to include ending blight in the 1970s, and then taking perfectly fine housing areas because the land will pay more taxes being used by a rich person for business (Kelo decision). Trump supports all this by the way, as part of his "I used to be a Democrat for decades doing most of my business in land deals inside Democrat-controlled regions" period.

These are the same Democrats who rage about religion getting in the way of decorating a cake but suddenly view it as a holy right when it gets in the way of a pipeline.
Doesn't matter if the judge buys the argument.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:26 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
Trump was forced to build around one of the widows. My understanding is that eminent domain has become more difficult for commercial development, as it should be. That wouldn't be a problem for the wall though.
It should be impossible for commercial development, not just difficult!!!!!
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Yeah. To all the above. The wall position is in the middle of each picture.
Most of the mileage is in Texas, El Paso tod Brownsvill is 860 road miles. El Paso to San Diego is 740 road miles. The NM, AZ and CA borders are pretty straight. The Rio Grande aint. The International border is dead center in the middle of that river. Mexico damn sure isn't going to allow it on THEIR side, so the US will have to surrender territory to get it built. Which is going to possibly off a lot of redneck (and non-redneck) fishermen, hunters, rafters, and kayakers, not to mention the extreme leftist photographers who consider the Big Bend and other very picturesque sections to be National Scenic Treasures..?
Stock it with piranha.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:32 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Stock it with piranha.
Sharks with frickin' laser beams.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Sharks with frickin' laser beams.
Fresh (sorta, for a really lax definition of "Fresh") water Sharks with Laser beams!
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:09 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Expecting your reply to bear some relation to what I posted is controlling is it? I really must stop making the mistake of expecting any coherent arguments from you.
You are kinder than I. What I expected was the usual: "Something something, you stupid liberals, ha ha ha, something something something." And I got it.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:19 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Beerina View Post
One can wonder, but it is the left that has pushed the ever-weakening of the public use concept, to include ending blight in the 1970s, and then taking perfectly fine housing areas because the land will pay more taxes being used by a rich person for business (Kelo decision). Trump supports all this by the way, as part of his "I used to be a Democrat for decades doing most of my business in land deals inside Democrat-controlled regions" period.

These are the same Democrats who rage about religion getting in the way of decorating a cake but suddenly view it as a holy right when it gets in the way of a pipeline.
I don't see the use of eminent domain as easily partitioning into a left versus right political division. Many classical liberals in the 1950s and 1960s favored it as part of large social improvement projects. But later many regretted the results and the impact on individuals (particularly when the most impacted were typically the poor and minorities). Conversely the right consists both of people such as Trump, who favor it to allow large and money-making private and tax-generating governmental projects, and people who are libertarians who opposite it on philosophical grounds.

I think this is one of the issues in which people's views primarily depend on who's ox is being gored.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:21 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Stock it with piranha.
Ooh, ooh-piranha, sharks with lasers, and giant alligators!

Does anyone know where to get flying monkeys too?
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:21 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Doesn't matter if the judge buys the argument.
Or the arguer buys the judge.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:22 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
It should be impossible for commercial development, not just difficult!!!!!
It should also be impossible and illegal for the government to take such land claiming it is for public need and then sell it to commercial interests.( And such law should have very long, sharp, gnashy teeth in it to be used on those who try to do such.) As was done in Nashville to benefit a local University (Vanderbilt - which I would - following that, which had no direct or indirect effect on me, but did on a load of poor families including many students living in homes where Vanderbilt wanted to build. Vanderbilt sucks fecal matter as representing higher education!!!!!!!!!
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:31 AM   #62
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As another note on Vanderbilt doings, In the 70s they were working on a chemical that is gaseous and deadly in tiny amounts. Personnel came within minutes of releasing it through a room sealed venting hood into the outside air. Only the fact that a curious person read the notice on the container describing it's effects on people did they stop when he screamed (functionally) "STOP!!!"

And when I worked at St. Thomas Hospital we got in an emergency patient - a young girl who had recently been treated at Vanderbilt - for speed we contacted them for the x-rays (I worked in radiology) as the condition needed treatment ASAP. Vanderbilt called back to tell us the X-Rays were missing so although she was taken care off. time was wasted getting new x-rays.. Turned out that a med-student had taken them without checking them out for research he wanted to do on her condition!!! Not as an assignment, just a why not!!! I really do not like Vanderbilt!!!
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Last edited by fuelair; 19th March 2017 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:37 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
My suggestion? Landmines. The choice of discriminating nations on a budget.
Or we can stop pussy footing around, randomly execute illegal immigrants, lop off their heads and mount those heads where they can be seen on pikes with messages of "Come legally, or else". If they can't figure it out after, consider forceful takeover of the country...

Alternatively we could maybe fine and imprison people hiring and housing illegal immigrants.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:07 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post
National security?!

$21 billion or more and years to build with our hard-earned tax dollars and just 40 minutes or less to cut through the so-called wall with cheap tools.


Border Wall Breached 9,000 times. Does it even work?

(CNN)While President Trump and government officials develop plans for a "wall" between the U.S. and Mexico, the agency responsible for securing the border is uncertain how successful the current fence has been.

The 654 miles of fence already lining the border have been breached more than 9,200 times between roughly 2010 and 2015, according to a report released Thursday by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), citing records from the U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP).

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/16/politics/gao-border-wall/


Just another clear example how Trump managed to dupe his supporters.
Yeah, that is not a wall though, it is a fence that looks real easy to shimmy up.

Why is CNN comparing this length of fence with a "wall"? It's bull, that article is a great argument for a wall, not against it.

And is 9000 breaches in 6 years really that many for a 654 mile length of fence, especially considering how many get through in total? What is that, about 3 people per day for a 600+ mile fence? Not bad if you ask me. Room for improvement though.

Quote:
Matt Allen, an assistant director for DHS investigations, testified that cartel smugglers can sidestep fencing by launching drugs over the border with air or propane cannons or by using vehicle "drive-throughs," where ramps and even cranes lift vehicles over barriers.
In other words, a good barrier would severely disrupt the flow of illegal aliens into the US.


Quote:
"When determined illegal traffickers meet a hard barrier on the land, there is a percentage of them that will go to sea," Ray said.
Yeah, I will wager that percentage is small.

I'm not arguing for the wall, just saying that this article does not pose a good argument against building one, at all.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:33 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
<snip> Maybe, Trump can spend the money he's wasting going to FL every weekend, or on keeping his family in NYC on the wall. that would be at least a drop or two in the bucket.
Even if everything went the way he wants it, it would still be years before a wall could be completed.
Nonsense, the wall is way ahead of schedule!
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:40 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Once again, you evince your complete disconnection from reality.
Lol
It obliterated your point!
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
No point in trying to carry on conversation with someone who moves the goalposts on every down.
Moving the goalposts? Where?
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:44 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by skyeagle409 View Post


Just another clear example how Trump managed to dupe his supporters.
Actually another clear example of cnn's fake news, duping their supporters.
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:16 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Ooh, ooh-piranha, sharks with lasers, and giant alligators!

Does anyone know where to get flying monkeys too?
Or to save money, just say that we've put all these things in there, and post a bunch of signs showing a sombrero with a bite taken out of it.
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:49 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'll just point out once again what everyone has known about walls from Babylonia onward: they only work if they're manned, every foot of them. Humans are very good at climbing, and everything that has ever been built has also been climbed. Especially quickly if the thing built is not supposed to be climbed.

Something else everyone has known.

In addition to all of that they also have to be impossible to go around.

I'm amused by the supporters of building a wall at our border with Mexico, who seem unaware that the U.S. has other borders, too.

We can't even protect the shoreline of southern Florida. How do they expect us to blockade all the rest of the country's shores?
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Old 19th March 2017, 05:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Moving the goalposts? Where?
Who's paying for this wall? According to Trump it's supposed to be the Mexicans but that ain't happening. Why did Trump lie about that?
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Who's paying for this wall? According to Trump it's supposed to be the Mexicans but that ain't happening. Why did Trump lie about that?
Because, "We're cutting government health care and food programs people desperately need to build a 30 foot high wall in the middle of the desert," isn't a good sales pitch. It's far easier to get people to sell themselves on your con by playing to their prejudices.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:13 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Something else everyone has known.

In addition to all of that they also have to be impossible to go around.

I'm amused by the supporters of building a wall at our border with Mexico, who seem unaware that the U.S. has other borders, too.

We can't even protect the shoreline of southern Florida. How do they expect us to blockade all the rest of the country's shores?
Especially when he proposes cutting Coast Guard funding at the same time...
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Something else everyone has known.

In addition to all of that they also have to be impossible to go around.

I'm amused by the supporters of building a wall at our border with Mexico, who seem unaware that the U.S. has other borders, too.

We can't even protect the shoreline of southern Florida. How do they expect us to blockade all the rest of the country's shores?
We could extend the wall across the Gulf of Mexico from the Rio Grande to Key West!
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:08 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Especially when he proposes cutting Coast Guard funding at the same time...
Just the part of the Coast Guard that ensures oil tankers don't flush their tanks with seawater and prevents over fishing.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:52 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Yeah sure, got a link for these "millions"

You do realise we're talking about "property owners"?
Rereading while awake now I see you are correct and I withdraw my assertion.

What I can still quibble with is your contention "very few" are against their land being taken to construct Trump's Folly. It is simply too early to guess, much less know, the number.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Actually another clear example of cnn's fake news, duping their supporters.


How about asking Trump for evidence that Obama wire-tapped his phones. That is clearly not fake news.

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Old 20th March 2017, 03:36 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
You think taking tribal lands is a breeze? This isn't the 19th century anymore.
It was for the border fence built during W. They got all kinds of exemptions from any and all laws that could impede them like issues with disturbing native graves. THey ended up with bones in the tracks of the bulldozers like proper conquerors again. It was a great moment for america recapturing our roots as the conquerors we are.

That is why Russia is such a natural ally.
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:39 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Yeah. To all the above. The wall position is in the middle of each picture.
Most of the mileage is in Texas, El Paso tod Brownsvill is 860 road miles. El Paso to San Diego is 740 road miles. The NM, AZ and CA borders are pretty straight. The Rio Grande aint. The International border is dead center in the middle of that river. Mexico damn sure isn't going to allow it on THEIR side, so the US will have to surrender territory to get it built. Which is going to possibly off a lot of redneck (and non-redneck) fishermen, hunters, rafters, and kayakers, not to mention the extreme leftist photographers who consider the Big Bend and other very picturesque sections to be National Scenic Treasures..?
That is why it is built in from the border, and why you get things like colleges that you have to go through border checkpoints between classes as the wall runs through campus. Then you have americans who live on the mexican side of the border wall but the US side of the border. But really no one cares about them.
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:42 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
It still adds to the costs and timescales if there are lots of people who dispute the government's valuations.

As an aside, I was tangentially involved in a compensation valuation for compulsory purchase of land associated with building part of a motorway (the M20) whilst on work experience as a 16-year old.

I didn't know what I wanted to do, so ended up with a chartered surveyors office. Our client disputed the government's valuation and I sat in on the negotiations. At one point, I asked how there was such a difference in the estimated value (100k vs 140k) and asked how the government representative arrived at his numbers.

He took the last selling price, the average monthly inflation rate in the area and multiplied them by the number of months. In surprise, I pointed out that this was equivalent to simple interest and you needed compound interest. I then had to explain what this was.

It was easy to show that his approach was wrong, but very hard to get over the concept of raising something to a power, and also that if the inflation rate is 1%, then you need to raise 1.01 to the power of n, not 0.01...

My host had spotted something was wrong but they all used massive books of tables of compound interest, so that took a long time, whilst I had a scientific calculator and knew that basic sum... I probably shortened that negotiation by about an hour. I was in my employer's good books for that.

It taught me a useful lesson about work and the possibility of cockups.
BUt think how worthless the land will be when it is on the Mexican side of the wall. That is going to seriously lower its value and will be reflected in the amount offered.
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