ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 19th March 2017, 05:06 PM   #81
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,271
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What I find interesting OTOH is Samuel L Jackson's complaint that black British actors are "tekkin muh jerb" (and yes, he surely did say it in a parody of a Southern redneck's voice as portrayed by South Park).

Samuel L Jackson had a part in the very comedy show I referenced above (albeit he played Samuel L Jackson for which he is uniquely well suited).

I dislike his insinuation that black actors from the UK are stealing jobs from Americans. For the most part they seem to do such a great job that I am surprised to later find out they are British (in Oz, for example, or Morgan in Walking Dead, Twelve Years a Slave and now the main role of Get Out).

But of course, there are also white British actors and actresses who seem to seemlessly play American roles as well such as the lead cop in The Wire, Rick in Walking Dead, Rosamund Pike in Gone Girl, Sally Hawkins in Blue Jasmine, and Emily Blunt in All You Need is Kill and the movie about the American cop who goes to Mexico with the great scene in the traffic jam at the border.

My rule of thumb is that if they can convincingly play the role it shouldn't matter where they're from.

<snip>
I can see Samuel L Jackson's point. Many parts in films such as 12 years a slave or Selma are played by Brits, of pure African descent, whereas African-Americans are often 80% African, 20% Scottish mix, thanks to slavery and transported Celts way back when, so should be reflected by people like Denzil Washington, Will Smith & co. (It could be argued.)
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:10 PM   #82
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,271
Originally Posted by baron View Post
If it would detract from the authenticity as perceived by the audience, yes (a Swede playing Muhammad Ali, or an African playing Winston Churchill). Or, if would in itself suggest a narrative not to be found in the plot (a South Korean lord of the manor in 19th century England, or whatever). Otherwise, no.

That's what's daft about the whole thing. All producers and most directors want, first and foremost, to make money. Everything else is secondary. If replacing the entire cast of Downton Abbey with Samoans would bring in a bigger audience, they'd do it. The idea that any racism or discrimination is involved is unfounded.
I went to see a Bangladeshi version of King Lear at the Globe. Apart from the incessant drumming, which drove me nuts, it was a most successful performance.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:26 PM   #83
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What about the Black and White Minstrels? So 'blackface is all right',
Ah, the tendentious 'so'. One of the best examples I've seen, too.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
but we can't have a 6'5" Samoan play Queen Victoria. In any case, Queen Victoria is a stereotype, but it doesn't mean other roles can't be played by 'ethnics'.
Queen Victoria is the opposite of a stereotype, she was a specific individual.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:29 PM   #84
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Um, 97.9% DNA match encompasses every human. And depending on who you ask, also the chimpanzees.
I wasn't...

Never mind.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Personally, I think every historical drama would be improved by casting chimpanzees in the human roles.
Most would be improved by not showing them at all. The remainer would, in an ideal world, have a cast made up of bull breed dogs.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:37 PM   #85
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I can see Samuel L Jackson's point. Many parts in films such as 12 years a slave or Selma are played by Brits, of pure African descent, whereas African-Americans are often 80% African, 20% Scottish mix, thanks to slavery and transported Celts way back when, so should be reflected by people like Denzil Washington, Will Smith & co. (It could be argued.)
What? Is that Jackson's point? That African Americans have a much closer ethnic mix to American slaves than black British actors? Are you sure that is Samuel L Jackson's argument?
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 05:49 PM   #86
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What? Is that Jackson's point? That African Americans have a much closer ethnic mix to American slaves than black British actors? Are you sure that is Samuel L Jackson's argument?
That (the previous poster's) argument is surely some bizarre interpretation. But I was prompted to look up that interview and saw that Samuel Jackson confirmed exactly what I was saying earlier about producers' / directors' casting priorities.

Originally Posted by Interview
When asked why he thinks that British black actors get cast more in American roles, he added that “they’re cheaper than us for one thing. They don’t cost as much."
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 06:13 PM   #87
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by baron View Post
That (the previous poster's) argument is surely some bizarre interpretation. But I was prompted to look up that interview and saw that Samuel Jackson confirmed exactly what I was saying earlier about producers' / directors' casting priorities.
He also said that directors "think they're better than us because they're classically trained."

It would make sense for a director to choose who they think is best for a role because they want to make a good movie, not just hire people who are cheap. If you are trying to make a blockbuster movie and hope to win lots of Oscars then you want to cast a good actor - or even the best actor - as Martin Luther King, not the cheapest. Movies such as Teelve Years A slave and Moonlight were always going to be challenging for the Academy Awards. If we are talking about casting extras then fine, you might want to make some budgeting decisions, but your leading roles will need to be talented.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 06:28 PM   #88
Vixen
Philosopher
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 9,271
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He also said that directors "think they're better than us because they're classically trained."

It would make sense for a director to choose who they think is best for a role because they want to make a good movie, not just hire people who are cheap. If you are trying to make a blockbuster movie and hope to win lots of Oscars then you want to cast a good actor - or even the best actor - as Martin Luther King, not the cheapest. Movies such as Teelve Years A slave and Moonlight were always going to be challenging for the Academy Awards. If we are talking about casting extras then fine, you might want to make some budgeting decisions, but your leading roles will need to be talented.
'Cheap' and 'classically trained' is just code for, 'We don't want no stinkin' foreigners takin' our jobs'.
__________________
...hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

~Rev 3:11
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 06:30 PM   #89
Noztradamus
Illuminator
 
Noztradamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 4,280
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Cheap' and 'classically trained' is just code for, 'We don't want no stinkin' foreigners takin' our jobs'.
They are just doing the jobs Americans won't do
__________________
The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping.
Noztradamus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 06:36 PM   #90
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
'Cheap' and 'classically trained' is just code for, 'We don't want no stinkin' foreigners takin' our jobs'.
Yeah, that was a UKIP dog whistle, and... wait, I thought you agreed with SLJ.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 09:17 PM   #91
sadhatter
Philosopher
 
sadhatter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 6,950
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Third time lucky...

The point is not about racism it's about the narrow boundaries of original drama produced in the UK which has the unwelcome effect of minimising opportunities for those that don't fit neatly in them.

Nobody is saying they should put a Chinese family in Downtown Abbey they are saying that it would be good if there was also some drama that had Chinese families in it. Preferably as something other than a token stereotype. Something that reflected the modern face of the UK rather than playing to imagined airbrushed pasts or mythical country idylls.
You realize they are in this to make money right?

If it sells they will sell it.
sadhatter is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:43 PM   #92
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,074
Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You realize they are in this to make money right?

If it sells they will sell it.
I realise they are doing it to make money. Of course that's the whole freaking point of what people are saying. Of course the BBC should not be solely about making money. That is why it is state funded.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 10:48 PM   #93
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 35,671
The idea that you can't cast blacks, for reasons of authenticity, in costume dramas is just hidebound stubbornness. If you find characters who are characterized by their caucasitudiness, sure they should be played by white folk. But that's not a whole lot of people, really. Simon Legree? Well, okay. Historical figures? Sure, although that can be argued (the article refers to the casting of Hamilton, for instance).

Why, though, other than "'Cuz that's the way it was!" does the street kid who Scrooge sends to get the big turkey in the window at the butcher, have to be white? I think modern audiences can relate to the fact that that was the cultural and racial makeup of the time but that today's street urchin is just as likely to be black or brown or cappuccino colored. The neighbors or visitors in The Pickwick Papers? The well-heeled gent who Oliver snatches the handkerchief from? Yeah, they would've probably been white back when, but does the story lose anything? No. Times change. You're showing me a history of Victoria's reign? I'd like her to be white. You're using her as a character in the remake of Around the World in 80 Days? Who cares?

Most dramatic characters just happen to be white. They're not defined by their whiteness.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!

Last edited by Foolmewunz; 19th March 2017 at 10:49 PM.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 11:33 PM   #94
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
The idea that you can't cast blacks, for reasons of authenticity, in costume dramas is just hidebound stubbornness. If you find characters who are characterized by their caucasitudiness, sure they should be played by white folk. But that's not a whole lot of people, really. Simon Legree? Well, okay. Historical figures? Sure, although that can be argued (the article refers to the casting of Hamilton, for instance).

Why, though, other than "'Cuz that's the way it was!" does the street kid who Scrooge sends to get the big turkey in the window at the butcher, have to be white? I think modern audiences can relate to the fact that that was the cultural and racial makeup of the time but that today's street urchin is just as likely to be black or brown or cappuccino colored. The neighbors or visitors in The Pickwick Papers? The well-heeled gent who Oliver snatches the handkerchief from? Yeah, they would've probably been white back when, but does the story lose anything? No. Times change. You're showing me a history of Victoria's reign? I'd like her to be white. You're using her as a character in the remake of Around the World in 80 Days? Who cares?

Most dramatic characters just happen to be white. They're not defined by their whiteness.
For many novels in which the story is more important than the verisimilitude of the wardrobe and cars and corsets, how people look is of no importance. I think your example of Christmas Carol is a good example. I don't care if Scrooge is played by anyone who is black or white or a muppet or a duck, the story is important.

Sadly I think people watch Downtown Abbey and other stuff like that because they like the BBC's fantasy ideas of what people looked like and did in the past. I very much doubt my opinions will change what people want to watch.

By the way, did anyone see the episode of Atlanta with the guy who was trans-racial. He was a black guy who considered himself to be a 35-year old white man called Harrison. He practices in the mirror, "Excuse me, what IPAs do you have on tap? Did you see Game of Thrones last night?" It's funny because it's true.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 11:35 PM   #95
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
But wait, if you had a version of Christmas Carol in which Scrooge sends a black or Asian boy to the shop to buy a big turkey you will indeed get complaints. In Victorian Britain it would have been goose!

A turkey, indeed!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th March 2017, 11:37 PM   #96
marplots
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 28,977
There ought to more women in traditionally male roles as well. There's no particular reason Abraham Lincoln has to be played by a man. Or even an adult, for that matter. How come there aren't more child actors getting the better roles?
marplots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 12:18 AM   #97
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 35,671
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But wait, if you had a version of Christmas Carol in which Scrooge sends a black or Asian boy to the shop to buy a big turkey you will indeed get complaints. In Victorian Britain it would have been goose!

A turkey, indeed!
Philistine! (Read the book. It's a turkey.)

Quote:
'It's Christmas Day!' said Scrooge to himself. 'I haven't missed it. The Spirits have done it all in one night. They can do anything they like. Of course they can. Of course they can. Hallo, my fine fellow!'

'Hallo!' returned the boy.

'Do you know the Poulterer's, in the next street but one, at the corner?' Scrooge inquired.

'I should hope I did,' replied the lad.

'An intelligent boy!' said Scrooge. 'A remarkable boy! Do you know whether they've sold the prize Turkey that was hanging up there? -- Not the little prize Turkey: the big one?'

'What, the one as big as me?' returned the boy.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 12:47 AM   #98
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 21,878
Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
Philistine! (Read the book. It's a turkey.)
What can I say? I am wrong!
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:02 AM   #99
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 5,772
Originally Posted by Noztradamus View Post
But you are suggesting it be politically correct art.


Scenario 1: I write a historically and technically accurate fiction novel about a US Navy Destroyer patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf during the second gulf war. I cast the Captain as a white Caucasian. A movie producer likes my novel and wants to adapt it for a movie. When the screenplay is released, the writer has cast Denzel Washington as the Captain. I have no problem with that.

Scenario 2: I write a historically and technically accurate novel about a US Navy Destroyer patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf during the Second World War. I cast the Captain as a white Caucasian. A movie producer likes my novel and wants to adapt it for a movie. When the screenplay is released, the writer has cast Denzel Washington as the Captain. I have a really big problem with that, because it compromises the historical accuracy of my story. There were no black captains of US Navy fighting ships during WW2. The first Black US Navy officer to command a US Navy ship was Samuel L Gravely who commanded the USS Theodore E. Chandler... that was not until 1961!!
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:19 AM   #100
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,374
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
FFTMC may be fiction, but Victorian Britain wasn't fiction, and specifically, west country peasants weren't fiction. Are you really suggesting that one should try for authenticity in everything except the colour of the actor's skin?
I have no idea about farm hands, but considering that blacks were far from uncommon in the West Country, in all walks of life, in the 19th century there is no historical reason for them not to be represented in some like FFTMC.

Any area of the country with a major port will have this...and the West Country has more than 1.

Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And I ask again............why weren't half of the slaves in Twelve Years a Slave Hispanic, and most of the rest white?
If you can find examples of white or hispanic slaves at that time then by all means bring it up. This is not at all similar to the dramas being referred to here.
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:33 AM   #101
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 4,891
Rorschach test thread. "What do you read into the article that is not there?"
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 05:57 AM   #102
baron
Illuminator
 
baron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,832
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I realise they are doing it to make money. Of course that's the whole freaking point of what people are saying. Of course the BBC should not be solely about making money. That is why it is state funded.
The BBC? State funded?

It's public funded. Did you not notice that when you pay your mandatory licence fee? It couldn't be state funded even in theory on account of its claim to impartiality.
__________________
I'm sorry, the fish is awful.
baron is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:44 AM   #103
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Did she make the claim whilst speaking in Ebonics as the title suggests?
No, that was me being snarky and riffing off the "grammar be racist" thread, although here we have multi-cultural London English, rather than Ebonics.
Quote:
Or was she merely stating a fact that there are few roles for black women when compared with white actresses?
In the article you quoted she actually said that there *were* roles for black actresses but as portraying someone being racially abused, so why point out something that she is not denying?
As I pointed out, she seemed to be cherry-picking high-profile historical series, perhaps because those are the ones she's more likely to been aware of, what with having been working in America so much in the last few years. The stereotyping she claimed was in the context of those historical dramas.

As I also said, British television drama is by no means short of non-white characters, and if anything they may actually be over-representated when compared to the actual demographics of the country. TV drama tends to reflect where programmes are predomiently made and/or set, which is mainly London and other urban areas.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 20th March 2017 at 07:23 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:44 AM   #104
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,719
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
A few points:

Did Thandie Newton actually make the claim of racism?
Did she make the claim whilst speaking in Ebonics as the title suggests?
Or was she merely stating a fact that there are few roles for black women when compared with white actresses?
In the article you quoted she actually said that there *were* roles for black actresses but as portraying someone being racially abused, so why point out something that she is not denying?

She's not mediocre. She is great in Westworld for example.

This is not a new complaint. In the TV comedy Extras a black character is complaining to Maggie that there aren't many roles for black actors. Her reply: "There's always Crimewatch."
Very well said. The bit about Ebonics in particular.

I had no idea that this was the Westworld actress. She's great.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:48 AM   #105
MikeG
Now. Do it now.
 
MikeG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 18,417
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
..........If you can find examples of white or hispanic slaves at that time then by all means bring it up. This is not at all similar to the dramas being referred to here.
You couldn't have missed the point by a greater distance if you'd tried.

The point has been made and strongly supported that the selection of actors should be colour-blind, regardless of the demography of the time, and with one seventh of the UK being non-white, that is the ratio of coloured to white actors that should be represented in all productions, including historical productions. Take that argument to the USA, where 48% of the population is Hispanic, and tell me why half the slaves in Twelve Years a Slave shouldn't have been Hispanic, and most of the rest white, with small minority black.

So the point you make in trying to rebut me is actually the point I was making: actors should represent the communities they are portraying at the time of the setting of the film/ drama. If all the yokels in 19th century Wessex were white, why would it be right to have one seventh of them portrayed by black and Asian actors?
__________________
The Conservatives want to keep wogs out and march boldly back to the 1950s when Britain still had an Empire and blacks, women, poofs and Irish knew their place. The Don

That's what we've sunk to here.
MikeG is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:51 AM   #106
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,719
Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Let's cut to the real discrimination in Hollywood: the disproportionate number of villains with an English accent!
But the English accent is a sign of villainy. This is simple historical fact.

Not the casting director's fault that the English are bad people.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:52 AM   #107
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,074
Originally Posted by baron View Post
The BBC? State funded?

It's public funded. Did you not notice that when you pay your mandatory licence fee? It couldn't be state funded even in theory on account of its claim to impartiality.
Yes that was my clumsy wording. The point remains though. Well done on deliberately missing it again.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:53 AM   #108
phiwum
Philosopher
 
phiwum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,719
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its not a strawman at all

The commercial choices are made because it is what the market demands... if there was no market, then the productions would not be made.

I was, and still am, a great fan of the Conan Doyle's original Sherlock Holmes. I consider this modern version in a contemporary setting and a female Watson to be an absolute travesty.
Damn straight. I don't watch inauthentic Sherlock Holmes.
phiwum is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:55 AM   #109
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
What I find interesting OTOH is Samuel L Jackson's complaint that black British actors are "tekkin muh jerb" (and yes, he surely did say it in a parody of a Southern redneck's voice as portrayed by South Park).

Samuel L Jackson had a part in the very comedy show I referenced above (albeit he played Samuel L Jackson for which he is uniquely well suited).

I dislike his insinuation that black actors from the UK are stealing jobs from Americans. For the most part they seem to do such a great job that I am surprised to later find out they are British (in Oz, for example, or Morgan in Walking Dead, Twelve Years a Slave and now the main role of Get Out).
It's also somewhat ironic given the propensity to parachute American actors into British films, which obviously includes Denzel Washington in For Queen and Country.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:57 AM   #110
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,074
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post


Scenario 1: I write a historically and technically accurate fiction novel about a US Navy Destroyer patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf during the second gulf war. I cast the Captain as a white Caucasian. A movie producer likes my novel and wants to adapt it for a movie. When the screenplay is released, the writer has cast Denzel Washington as the Captain. I have no problem with that.

Scenario 2: I write a historically and technically accurate novel about a US Navy Destroyer patrolling the waters of the Persian Gulf during the Second World War. I cast the Captain as a white Caucasian. A movie producer likes my novel and wants to adapt it for a movie. When the screenplay is released, the writer has cast Denzel Washington as the Captain. I have a really big problem with that, because it compromises the historical accuracy of my story. There were no black captains of US Navy fighting ships during WW2. The first Black US Navy officer to command a US Navy ship was Samuel L Gravely who commanded the USS Theodore E. Chandler... that was not until 1961!!
Scenario 3. I write a fictional story about a UK naval vesse in 2017 with a multicultural crew which doesn't get picked up for tv because the commissioners are only interested in making yet another costume drama with an entirely white cast.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:58 AM   #111
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 35,671
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You couldn't have missed the point by a greater distance if you'd tried.

The point has been made and strongly supported that the selection of actors should be colour-blind, regardless of the demography of the time, and with one seventh of the UK being non-white, that is the ratio of coloured to white actors that should be represented in all productions, including historical productions. Take that argument to the USA, where 48% of the population is Hispanic, and tell me why half the slaves in Twelve Years a Slave shouldn't have been Hispanic, and most of the rest white, with small minority black.

So the point you make in trying to rebut me is actually the point I was making: actors should represent the communities they are portraying at the time of the setting of the film/ drama. If all the yokels in 19th century Wessex were white, why would it be right to have one seventh of them portrayed by black and Asian actors?
48% of the United States is Hispanic? No wonder the Wonderbread and mayonnaise crowd are in a panic!
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele
"Chicken **** Poster!"
Help! We're being attacked by sea lions!
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 06:59 AM   #112
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Why are people from the OP on down losing their **** about this and hurling their toys from the pram?
I didn't think I was. It just struck me that she was making a claim on somewhat shaky grounds, and that the parallel BFI claim was being misrepresented, and may even have been questionable in itself.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:00 AM   #113
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 76,946
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Scenario 3. I write a fictional story about a UK naval vesse in 2017 with a multicultural crew which doesn't get picked up for tv because the commissioners are only interested in making yet another costume drama with an entirely white cast.
You think that's part of the decision?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:06 AM   #114
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Well, isn't it racist? To say you're fine with a Berber playing King Arthur, but would object to a British actress who happens to be black playing Guenevere because it "would detract from the authenticity as perceived by the audience"?
Ahem!
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:10 AM   #115
Archie Gemmill Goal
Illuminator
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 4,074
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You think that's part of the decision?
No. But it's part of the outcome.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:11 AM   #116
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Third time lucky...

The point is not about racism it's about the narrow boundaries of original drama produced in the UK which has the unwelcome effect of minimising opportunities for those that don't fit neatly in them.
Is this a given? Historical drama, yet, but not clearly not all drama, even if we discount soaps and stick to the "serious" stuff. The Newton interview is on the coat-tails of her appearing in Line of Duty (for which she has my sympathy, what with Jed Mercurio being a dreary writing-by-numbers hack). There are plenty of roles for non-white actors outside of historical dramas, so her apparently focussing on historical dramas is a bit of a red herring.

As an aside, it's worth noting that Victoria does have some openings for significant real life non-white characters, who Newton perhaps was unaware of when she used that series an an example.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 20th March 2017 at 07:25 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:16 AM   #117
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Watching Downton Abbey: it is ridiculous the costumes they wear, as though they wore something brand spanking new every day, fresh from the BBC designer's sewing machines and John Lewis' haberdashery department.
Downton is not a BBC series.

Quote:
The UK of course is a class-ridden society, and the explanation of the Midsomer Murder producers for never having a single black face was, oh there aren't any in middle-class Midsomer.
If they claims that, it was demonstrably false.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:19 AM   #118
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 6,062
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sadly I think people watch Downtown Abbey and other stuff like that because they like the BBC's fantasy ideas of what people looked like and did in the past.
Oh look, another one...
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:20 AM   #119
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,374
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
YIf all the yokels in 19th century Wessex were white, why would it be right to have one seventh of them portrayed by black and Asian actors?
You appear to have accidentally snipped the key part of my post where I point out that there were blacks in the West Country in all walks of life in the 19th century. Hence my point that, if you can find examples of white and/or hispanic slaves in the period covered by 12 years then you would have a point.
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th March 2017, 07:30 AM   #120
commandlinegamer
Philosopher
 
commandlinegamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mazes of Menace
Posts: 8,477
I can't really imagine Thandie Newton in Midsomer Murders, but it's nothing to do with her skin colour, more an issue of hierarchy. For the same reason, I wouldn't expect to see Michael Caine or Judi Dench in that show. (Well, maybe Dench, given that she can manages to move effortlessly between stage, TV, and film.) But it's more a programme for the lower tier of character actors/actresses, even if it's a show that has a big fanbase outside its country of origin.

There are other programmes, like The Fall or Luther which are geared to having at least one or two big-name TV/film stars and being present-day, have no real bar to colour.
__________________
He bade me take any rug in the house.

Last edited by commandlinegamer; 20th March 2017 at 07:34 AM.
commandlinegamer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.