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Old 11th October 2021, 11:07 AM   #2121
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, sure, but it seems a bit odd to identify with them when they are subjugating and murdering people.

(Except perhaps on Columbus Day.)
Don't denigrate "The Day of the Race."
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Old 11th October 2021, 11:33 AM   #2122
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Murderous slavers from centuries ago had the foresight to envision the precise advantages which matter today?
I noticed you snipped out the part of Checkmite's post that makes the plane/pilot analogy. It is not a perfect analogy, nonetheless, it is a very apt one.
Were you unable to address it?

Lets be honest here, we are talking about "white privilege", right? If you are part of the that privileged group (I am and it seems Checkmite, Boudicca, Bruto and many others here are) and you aren't even prepared to acknowledge that past members of your group were largely responsible for the predicament that other, less privileged groups experience now, then that makes you almost as bad as they were, and therefore part of the problem.
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Old 11th October 2021, 12:16 PM   #2123
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've already said that people have responsibility to right social wrongs at the beginning of #2106. What I'm questioning here and now is the proposition that European Americans have enhanced responsibility because of their ancestry.
a. They have enhanced responsibility because they are in a far better position to do something about it than any other group.

b. It is precisely "because of their ancestry", or rather, because of what their ancestors did, that they are in that better position now.

c. The worst aspect of this is not just a lack of acceptance that their group were mainly responsible, but that some of the most privileged members are actively attempting to whitewash history. They do not want any children taught about the slave trade; about their groups' oppression of people due to their skin colour or ethnicity - Chinese, Black, Hispanic, Polish, Jewish, Irish etc. They don't want their children to learn that their ancestors took up arms against their own country to perpetuate that oppression

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Once again, for the record, we all bear moral responsibility to help make our nations and communities more equitable. This is true for those of us (like me) descended from the Atlantic slave trade and for those of us (like me) descended from European colonizers.
Good, but you are still only part of the way there.

You haven't yet reached the point where you acknowledge that the reason you even need to bear that responsibility at all, is because of what past members of our race did. Additionally, some members of our race are still actively opposing attempts to help make our nations and communities more equitable - they have their white privilege and they don't want to give any of it up. The objections to CRT are not about "not wanting their children to feel bad about being white", its that they are afraid their children will learn the truth about their group, and that will diminish their own privilege.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The artificial social construction known as "non-Hispanic white" accounts for just over half of births in the U.S. so it isn't at all surprising that they tend to hold political power in a first-past-the-post representative democracy based on numbers alone. The economic disparities are much less tolerable, but also somewhat less tractable.
Not true at all. In an extreme example, in South Africa in the late 1980s, 20% of the population was white, but they made up 100% of the government. The other 80% (68% black and 12% coloured and mixed race) had 0% representation. Being part of a significant percentage of a demographic is not a guarantee of significant representation.
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:43 PM   #2124
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One of the things that complicates discussion is that the wrongs that need balancing are perceived to be in the distant past. This discussion on Jon Oliver I found to be rather eye opening, and refers to a much more recent injustice, that was going on within the lifetimes of people still around today. In fact it modified my opinion on the "reparations" discussion. I have always tended towards the opinion that direct reparations for slavery was a poor remedy over systemic reform, especially with these wrongs being committed by ancestors several generations removed.

On the other hand I think I could be convinced that the below issue is a valid basis for some kind of direct reparations. In many cases the individuals and their children who were specifically harmed are still around to try and make their families whole. If you want to see the video it's easy enough to find, but I find that text is easier and more efficient to review, so I've included that.

https://scrapsfromtheloft.com/tv-ser...er-transcript/
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:49 PM   #2125
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
a. They have enhanced responsibility because they are in a far better position to do something about it than any other group.
I do not share your belief that moral responsibility inures to socially constructed racial groups rather than individual citizens.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
b. It is precisely "because of their ancestry", or rather, because of what their ancestors did, that they are in that better position now.
Once again, you are assigning responsibility to an entire group without stopping to consider the massive social and economic disparities within that group. Are you in a better position to affect positive change than, say, Kendrick Perkins?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You haven't yet reached the point where you acknowledge that the reason you even need to bear that responsibility at all, is because of what past members of our race did.
You haven't yet made an argument for the notion that moral responsibility results from racial identity or ancestry rather than something morally salient, such as individual ability to produce social change.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Additionally, some members of our race are still actively opposing attempts to help make our nations and communities more equitable...
I'm not non-Hispanic whiteWP and don't expect to convert anytime soon.

(Don't blame me, I don't make the categories here.)
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Old 11th October 2021, 03:56 PM   #2126
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That would only be true if the nation was a perfectly even distribution; that is, if the national figures for racial demographics scaled equally or close to equally as one progressed to lower levels of the representative democracy. But they don't; naturally there are areas for instance with a significantly higher and areas with a significantly lower percentage of white residents. And while whites very much do gain more relative political influence where the ratio of "non-Hispanic white" is higher than the national average, the reverse is not always true; communities made up of much higher percentages of black residents don't always have a higher-than-average representation politically. Just for one off-the-cuff example, African-Americans make up more than a quarter of the population of the state of Alabama, yet only one of the state's seven representatives to Congress, and none of its senators, is black.
This is all true, but your complaint wasn't that non-Hispanic European Americans wield disproportionate power (they do) but rather that they maintain "political and economic power in the country" to this day. This latter fact is unsurprising on demographics alone, and would remain true if every ethnic group was represented in perfect proportion to the underlying population. I think we should all agree that the overall disproportionality is a problem, but it isn't an easy one to solve without some sort of top-down ban on packing-and-cracking when mapping congressional districts.
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Old 11th October 2021, 04:11 PM   #2127
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I noticed you snipped out the part of Checkmite's post that makes the plane/pilot analogy. It is not a perfect analogy, nonetheless, it is a very apt one.
The pilot's unique responsibility to land the plane is not passed down from those who trained her to fly; it flows from her acceptance of the role itself. I like this analogy because it puts the focus back on individual responsibility.
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Old 11th October 2021, 04:12 PM   #2128
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm not non-Hispanic whiteWP and don't expect to convert anytime soon.

(Don't blame me, I don't make the categories here.)
It's a pretty contrived category. And maybe Hispanics are excluded by definition but in practice it's clear that a lot of them pass the white privilege eye test and ancestry test.
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Old 11th October 2021, 04:30 PM   #2129
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Don't denigrate "The Day of the Race."
It's surely quite a feat to celebrate racial diversity in the face of what the Spanish colonizers did to make it happen, and on the day when they landed to boot.
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Old 11th October 2021, 04:36 PM   #2130
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's a pretty contrived category.
All of these categories seem fairly contrived to me, at least the ones that purport to categorize individuals into only a handful of archetypes based on continent, given historical gene flows between those populations.
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Old 11th October 2021, 06:06 PM   #2131
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
This is all true, but your complaint wasn't that non-Hispanic European Americans wield disproportionate power (they do) but rather that they maintain "political and economic power in the country" to this day. This latter fact is unsurprising on demographics alone, and would remain true if every ethnic group was represented in perfect proportion to the underlying population.
In that case it was just unclear wording on my part. Perhaps I should have used "control" instead of power, or been more elaborate in my description. The main ideas are that the relevant laws and systems were established with a desired outcome in mind of preventing non-whites from gaining any political and economic power at all, even a small amount of it commensurate with the size of their demographic vs the total population; that only several focused and long-term campaigns over time aimed at reforming those laws finally enabled non-whites in the United States to be able to participate in the representative democracy at all, and that even those reforms were incomplete in the sense that whites in many places still have disproportionate political control and economic power.
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Old 11th October 2021, 08:58 PM   #2132
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
It's a pretty contrived category. And maybe Hispanics are excluded by definition but in practice it's clear that a lot of them pass the white privilege eye test and ancestry test.
Whiteness has been used a judgement on whether or not to give people rights and treat them as equals for a long time.

And unlike white privilege, which is something you are born with due to generations that came before. Whiteness is often earned by a minority when they are considered sufficiently "white" enough to have the same power and privileges as other white people.

Just like the example of Irish immigrants I gave before, or currently groups like Cuban immigrants.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:20 PM   #2133
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Whiteness has been used a judgement on whether or not to give people rights and treat them as equals for a long time.

And unlike white privilege, which is something you are born with due to generations that came before. Whiteness is often earned by a minority when they are considered sufficiently "white" enough to have the same power and privileges as other white people.

Just like the example of Irish immigrants I gave before, or currently groups like Cuban immigrants.
Or Jews.
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Old 11th October 2021, 09:33 PM   #2134
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Jews still aren't considered white in this country.

But it is true that they have been trying to be accepted as white for a long time now. It just hasn't succeeded due to anti-semitism.
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Old 12th October 2021, 01:28 AM   #2135
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
They are so obsessed with the notion that this country is great and always has been. Because it has been, for them.

We were created as a nation where only white, Christian, property owning males were able to have the right to vote and the possibility to succeed. And everybody else has been fighting for their rightful place as equals ever since.
When the country was founded White Christians were pretty much the only people besides the natives who were here. So the most successful people at that time were White Christians. So were the poorest people in the nation. So what?

As far as Christians being the only people allowed to succeed, not true. There were Jews in the colonies by the 17th century and they were "allowed" to succeed. Aaron Lopez, e.g., who died in 1782 was the richest man in Newport, Rhode Island for a time.

Quote:
Our success has been on the backs of everyone we have enslaved, subjugated, and killed in order to get here.
Slavery is a universal phenomenon. If what you say is true then everybody can trace their success back to slavery. We're not unique in that way by any stretch.

Yes, slavery was legal in the lands that became the United States. It was legal almost everywhere in the New World at that time. Christians and Jews in United States who owned slaves were not uniquely evil for doing so. Native Americans and free blacks who owned slaves at that time aren't uniquely evil for owning slaves either.

About three percent of the people who had been enslaved by Africans and sold to European traders for resale in the New World ended up in British North America. Ninety seven percent of the millions of Africans who survived the Middle Passage were sold in the Caribbean and South America. So the history of the slave trade in the New World is basically four hundred years of Hispanics--not Whites--abusing Africans.

The role of Indigenous European Christians in the New World slave trade would be inconsequential if it were not for the fact that we, along with our Indigenous European Christian brothers in the Old World, were the first people to abolish slavery. We even fought a war to secure the freedom of our slaves. This might be the only time one ethnic group has fought so hard to secure liberty for a different ethnic group.

Finally, after freeing the slaves, we accepted them as citizens and gave them the opportunity to thrive and succeed to the best of their ability. As a result, African-Americans today have the highest standard of living of any African diaspora population anywhere in the world. They are wealthier than Africans living in Africa itself. As they say, African-Americans are the poorest Americans but the richest Africans.

Do you think that Hispanics living in the United States feel shame because people who look like them purchased 97% of the slaves who were brought across the Atlantic? Considering how well our Hispanic population and our African American population get along, I doubt many Mexicans are losing sleep over it.

Do you see Jews hanging their heads in shame because nobody can argue that the balance of the Jewish record on the question of American slavery and the Civil War is anything but regrettable and that the abolition of slavery was almost entirely a Christian project?

The Europeans who traded with Africans didn't enslave free people themselves. The Europeans purchased Africans who had already been enslaved by other Africans. There are alot of people in West Africa today who have a skin tone that is similar to the skin tone of the Africans who enslaved other Africans hundreds of years ago. Their success today is directly linked to their participation in the slave trade, right? Have they offered reparations to the descendants of slaves in South America, the Caribbean and the USA?

So, to sum up, White people in the United States were responsible for only a tiny sliver of the slave trade, our major contribution to slavery was abolishing it, and our former slaves have a much better life today than they would be having if their forefathers had not been enslaved. If you feel that Indigenous European Christians need to apologize for this, so be it. I think we're owed a "thank you" card at least.
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Old 12th October 2021, 07:45 AM   #2136
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
When the country was founded White Christians were pretty much the only people besides the natives who were here. So the most successful people at that time were White Christians. So were the poorest people in the nation. So what?

As far as Christians being the only people allowed to succeed, not true. There were Jews in the colonies by the 17th century and they were "allowed" to succeed. Aaron Lopez, e.g., who died in 1782 was the richest man in Newport, Rhode Island for a time.


Slavery is a universal phenomenon. If what you say is true then everybody can trace their success back to slavery. We're not unique in that way by any stretch.

Yes, slavery was legal in the lands that became the United States. It was legal almost everywhere in the New World at that time. Christians and Jews in United States who owned slaves were not uniquely evil for doing so. Native Americans and free blacks who owned slaves at that time aren't uniquely evil for owning slaves either.

About three percent of the people who had been enslaved by Africans and sold to European traders for resale in the New World ended up in British North America. Ninety seven percent of the millions of Africans who survived the Middle Passage were sold in the Caribbean and South America. So the history of the slave trade in the New World is basically four hundred years of Hispanics--not Whites--abusing Africans.

The role of Indigenous European Christians in the New World slave trade would be inconsequential if it were not for the fact that we, along with our Indigenous European Christian brothers in the Old World, were the first people to abolish slavery. We even fought a war to secure the freedom of our slaves. This might be the only time one ethnic group has fought so hard to secure liberty for a different ethnic group.

Finally, after freeing the slaves, we accepted them as citizens and gave them the opportunity to thrive and succeed to the best of their ability. As a result, African-Americans today have the highest standard of living of any African diaspora population anywhere in the world. They are wealthier than Africans living in Africa itself. As they say, African-Americans are the poorest Americans but the richest Africans.

Do you think that Hispanics living in the United States feel shame because people who look like them purchased 97% of the slaves who were brought across the Atlantic? Considering how well our Hispanic population and our African American population get along, I doubt many Mexicans are losing sleep over it.

Do you see Jews hanging their heads in shame because nobody can argue that the balance of the Jewish record on the question of American slavery and the Civil War is anything but regrettable and that the abolition of slavery was almost entirely a Christian project?

The Europeans who traded with Africans didn't enslave free people themselves. The Europeans purchased Africans who had already been enslaved by other Africans. There are alot of people in West Africa today who have a skin tone that is similar to the skin tone of the Africans who enslaved other Africans hundreds of years ago. Their success today is directly linked to their participation in the slave trade, right? Have they offered reparations to the descendants of slaves in South America, the Caribbean and the USA?

So, to sum up, White people in the United States were responsible for only a tiny sliver of the slave trade, our major contribution to slavery was abolishing it, and our former slaves have a much better life today than they would be having if their forefathers had not been enslaved. If you feel that Indigenous European Christians need to apologize for this, so be it. I think we're owed a "thank you" card at least.
This post is filled with nothing but white supremacism and slavery apologetics.

You are not owed a "thank you" card, but a "reparations demand" card will be in your future, so look for that in the mail.

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Old 12th October 2021, 02:13 PM   #2137
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Jews still aren't considered white in this country.
I'm going to take your word on this.

.

.

.

.

.

.


j/k where are you getting your data?

ETA: Suppose we wanted to know whether a swarthy Puerto Rican enjoys more or less "whiteness" than an equally swarthy Sephardic Jew. We're talking about an American social construct, so we need data from U.S. social surveys, but I don't think Pew would be so tone-deaf as to actually ask such questions in a time of pervasive racial reckoning. Perhaps Fox News?
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:27 PM   #2138
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I get what Boudicca90 is saying regarding the distinction between whiteness and having white privilege, but I'm not sure many people think about the overarching whiteness as described.

If you benefit from your appearance and how people perceive you, regardless of weird cultural mental gymnastics to place you in a different category, I think that's all that matters at the ground level. Meet the cast of Seinfeld or all those Cubans who spoke at the RNC last election in the street; I don't think you'd think twice about them.
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Old 12th October 2021, 02:34 PM   #2139
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Meet the cast of Seinfeld or all those Cubans who spoke at the RNC last election in the street; I don't think you'd think twice about them.
If I'd met Hayley Davison back when she literally turned orange I'd think twice about that, but I don't generally think twice about people appearing within the usual range of human skin tones (i.e. from Björk to Seal).
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Old 12th October 2021, 04:05 PM   #2140
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Another attempt to define 'pop-CRT' (aks 'Wokeness')


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In the culture-war discourse of the past decade, a variety of terms have been used to refer to the ideology of the socially progressive left: “political correctness” (first coined during an earlier phase of the culture wars, in the late 1980s/early 1990s), “social justice,” “identity politics,” and more recently, “wokeness” or “wokeism” (and occasionally, “cancel culture”). These shifting terms invariably become targets of left-wing ridicule as well as right-wing misuse (so that, for instance, any condemnation of actual bigotry is mocked as “political correctness,” “social justice warrior-ism,” etc.). Meanwhile, critics on the left dismiss the idea of a “woke” or “social justice” ideology as a right-wing myth.

https://cathy.arcdigital.media/p/defining-wokeness
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Old 12th October 2021, 04:13 PM   #2141
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
a. They have enhanced responsibility because they are in a far better position to do something about it than any other group.

b. It is precisely "because of their ancestry", or rather, because of what their ancestors did, that they are in that better position now.
What makes this premise entertaining is that it creates a situation where my near-poverty-level white cousins on my mom's side are considered to have enhanced responsibility to help out my upper-class-and-wealthy black cousins on my dad's side.
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:24 AM   #2142
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What makes this premise entertaining is that it creates a situation where my near-poverty-level white cousins on my mom's side are considered to have enhanced responsibility to help out my upper-class-and-wealthy black cousins on my dad's side.

Look up the meaning of "edge cases". You also need to learn what "as a whole" means

If you do not understand or realise that people of colour are greatly over-represented against their demographic in poverty level, and "near-poverty-level", and are routinely discriminated against for employment, insurance, house valuation, education, health care and all the other things that I'll bet you take for granted, then you are just being wilfully blind and ignorant of reality!

You need to get out of your nice, easy, white privileged comfort zone, and take a look at what happens in the real world.
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:45 AM   #2143
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European Americans do not undertake actions "as a whole" but as disparate individuals, and only white nationalists are hoping to remedy this situation.
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Old 13th October 2021, 05:52 AM   #2144
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
European Americans do not undertake actions "as a whole" but as disparate individuals, and only white nationalists are hoping to remedy this situation.
American history shows this is plainly untrue. White Americans were so unified in purpose that white supremacy was codified into law for long stretches of this country's history, and lesser practices of white-identity collective action continue to this day.

White nationalists are not novel in this country, if anything they pining for a return to a previous era where white supremacy was uncritically accepted as the ordinary state of affairs.
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:03 AM   #2145
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
White Americans were so unified in purpose that white supremacy was codified into law for long stretches of this country's history, and lesser practices of white-identity collective action continue to this day.
These claims are the past tense, about a past which white nationalists fondly recall but cannot recreate.

Do you maintain that European Americans remain unified in purpose to this day? If so, how so? Upon which issues do we see European Americans voting as a bloc, for example?
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Old 13th October 2021, 06:46 AM   #2146
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
These claims are the past tense, about a past which white nationalists fondly recall but cannot recreate.

Do you maintain that European Americans remain unified in purpose to this day? If so, how so? Upon which issues do we see European Americans voting as a bloc, for example?
To be back on topic, the whole "critical race theory" freakout seems to be largely driven from mostly white suburbs. It's an excellent example of an issue that is entirely driven by white identity ideology.
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Old 13th October 2021, 08:08 AM   #2147
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
American history shows this is plainly untrue. White Americans were so unified in purpose that white supremacy was codified into law for long stretches of this country's history, and lesser practices of white-identity collective action continue to this day.

White nationalists are not novel in this country, if anything they pining for a return to a previous era where white supremacy was uncritically accepted as the ordinary state of affairs.
Until recently, white nationalism was probably unique to the western hemisphere though. In Europe you were far and probably still far more likely to run across French, German, Basque, etc nationalism

Aside from that, white supremacy was codified into law in some parts of the US. It was never especially universal. You could argue white supremacist culture was, but not really legally so.
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Old 13th October 2021, 11:18 AM   #2148
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be back on topic, the whole "critical race theory" freakout seems to be largely driven from mostly white suburbs.
Do you expect European Americans will move against CRT with unity of purpose? If that were to happen (it won't) then we could safely bet that the nascent movement to include it in K-12 education is doomed.
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:10 PM   #2149
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This post is filled with nothing but white supremacism and slavery apologetics.
Name calling isn't as persuasive as pointing out where I am wrong.

Quote:
You are not owed a "thank you" card, but a "reparations demand" card will be in your future, so look for that in the mail.
Slavery is the one area where reparations can actually right a past injustice and make ADOS whole again. I wish we would stop talking about it and just get it done.
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:50 PM   #2150
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post

Aside from that, white supremacy was codified into law in some parts of the US. It was never especially universal. You could argue white supremacist culture was, but not really legally so.
Ever read the Dred Scott opinion?

Part of the problem with how US history is taught is that this opinion is mostly shrugged off as being a fever dream of an evil judge instead of a shamefully reasonably accurate account of American history and legal traditions.

People have to retcon that opinion as being totally unreasonable and/or evil else any argument that the US isn't from it's conception a white supremacist state falls apart.

Taney's reasoning might be up for debate to a point... ...but he isn't making up the examples he uses to reach this conclusion, including the laws of "free" states like New Hampshire, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. Taney wasn't as much being evil and much as just reflecting it.

Quote:
But it is too clear for dispute, that the enslaved African race were not intended to be included, and formed no part of the people who framed and adopted this declaration; for if the language, as understood in that day, would embrace them, the conduct of the distinguished men who framed the Declaration of Independence would have been utterly and flagrantly inconsistent with the principles they asserted; and instead of the sympathy of mankind, to which they so confidently appealed, they would have deserved and received universal rebuke and reprobation.


....

So, too, in Connecticut. We refer more particularly to the legislation of this State, because it was not only among the first to put an end to slavery within its own territory, but was the first to fix a mark of reprobation upon the African slave trade.

....


And in the act of 1784, by which the issue of slaves, born after the time therein mentioned, were to be free at a certain age, the section is again introduced by a preamble assigning a similar motive for the act. It is in these words:

'Whereas sound policy requires that the abolition of slavery should be effected as soon as may be consistent with the rights of individuals, and the public safety and welfare'—showing that the right of property in the master was to be protected, and that the measure was one of policy, and to prevent the injury and inconvenience, to the whites, of a slave population in the State.
This is a statute that when ending freaking slavery weighed the speed of slaves being freed against the rights of "individuals."

So, yeah. White supremacy. In Connecticut. Even when ending slavery.

Also in Connecticut, discussing a provision of an earlier law banning the slave trade:

Quote:

, that if any free negro shall travel without such pass, and shall be stopped, seized, or taken up, he shall pay all charges arising thereby. And this law was in full operation when the Constitution of the United States was adopted, and was not repealed till 1797. So that up to that time free negroes and mulattoes were associated with servants and slaves in the police regulations established by the laws of the State.
So, yeah.

It is hard to read this in any objective way that doesn't establish that, even if Taney might have been a bit overbroad as to the jurisdictional issue, that the US wasn't founded in white supremacy. Which is why the whole idea that the framers should be at all deified is absolute rubbish that has done as much as anything to preserve this legacy.

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Old 13th October 2021, 01:55 PM   #2151
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Slavery is the one area where reparations can actually right a past injustice and make ADOS whole again. I wish we would stop talking about it and just get it done.
Had to google ADOS; found it of some interest that those of us descended from Caribbean slaves don't count unless our ancestors were enslaved in the U.S. as well as the Caribbean. Guess you have to draw the line somewhere.
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Old 13th October 2021, 07:33 PM   #2152
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Had to google ADOS; found it of some interest that those of us descended from Caribbean slaves don't count unless our ancestors were enslaved in the U.S. as well as the Caribbean. Guess you have to draw the line somewhere.
Reparations for slavery should be paid to the descendants of slavery. Recent arrivals from Ghana or Somalia, e.g., are owed nothing. Countries like Brazil and Haiti that owe their modern wealth to the slaves that built their countries can take care of the descendants of those slaves themselves.
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Old 14th October 2021, 08:54 AM   #2153
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After re-reading the Dred Scott case I'm convinced it's pretty important to what is going on here. It's wild how this opinion gets just brushed off as anything but really strong evidence that we really shouldn't romanticize the founding of the United States. Which is really what this outcry over CRT is about.

From today's perspective it reads a lot like something Scalia, Alito or Thomas would have written. It is a shining example of how originalism works and the problems it causes.

This section really jumped out at me:

Quote:
It is not the province of the court to decide upon the justice or injustice, the policy or impolicy, of these laws. The decision of that question belonged to the political or law-making power; to those who formed the sovereignty and framed the Constitution. The duty of the court is, to interpret the instrument they have framed, with the best lights we can obtain on the subject, and to administer it as we find it, according to its true intent and meaning when it was adopted.
That same deal where they cherry pick the words of the framers and the historical record to reach a desired conclusion while also acknowledging that it is unjust. The signature move of the originalist using the framers as moral shields for all sorts of terrible ideas.
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Old 14th October 2021, 09:28 AM   #2154
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Jamelle Bouie, NYTimes columnist and VA resident, with some thoughts on the pundits trying to gin up CRT as anything but a fringe right freakout. He cites a WaPo op-ed titled "Opinion: Critical race theory is a potent issue in the Virginia governor’s race"

Originally Posted by Bouie
Getting real tired of the pure wishcasting that is passing for analysis of this race.

Take this paragraph, which I read as dismissive. “Of course the city of Virginia Beach voted this down.” Except, VB — the largest single city in Virginia — is a vital swing area in the state, nearly evenly divided between Republican and Democratic voters, with lots of indies.

far from an “of course,” if the Virginia Beach school board is voting down a CRT resolution, that actually says something important about its potency as an election issue.

read a story which described Winchester — deep in the heart of the Shenandoah Valley, where there is a straight up museum to Stonewall Jackson — as an “exuburb of Northern Virginia” in order to present an ordinary Republican voter as something more exotic. It’s ridiculous.

I’m not saying Youngkin can’t win. But there’s so much of analysis of this race that feels untethered from the political realities of the state.

Virginia is not NOVA and you shouldn’t really anchor the state’s politics in relation to NOVA. If you really want to know how CRT is playing, you need to look to the Richmond suburbs, the greater Hampton Roads area, the southside and the western edge.

If Democratic voters in like, Emporia are big mad about CRT, then that’s a story, because it says something about the party’s weakness in the small and medium-sized towns that anchor its showing in everything east of I-95 and I-81.

But like, so much of the analysis I’ve seen amounts to “I drove an hour outside of Washington and this is what I found.”

still can’t get over that virginia beach paragraph, and not just because that’s my hometown. to steal from a reply to this thread, VB is like the staten island of the state. it’s mostly represented by republicans in the general assembly. if CRT isn’t a big issue here….
https://twitter.com/jbouie/status/1448422988009943044

Outside of ginning up the normal right wing rubes that are mad at whatever Fox News and Facebook tells them to be that week, very little evidence that this CRT freakout is penetrating the mainstream.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:10 AM   #2155
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Countries like Brazil and Haiti that owe their modern wealth to the slaves that built their countries can take care of the descendants of those slaves themselves.
Okay, but some jurisdictions which are presently the United States practiced slavery under a different flag, e.g. U.S. Virgin Islands.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:11 AM   #2156
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Reparations for slavery should be paid to the descendants of slavery. Recent arrivals from Ghana or Somalia, e.g., are owed nothing. Countries like Brazil and Haiti that owe their modern wealth to the slaves that built their countries can take care of the descendants of those slaves themselves.
Only subsaharan slavery?

Or should islamic countries pay reparations for descendants of over 7 million Europeans enslaved by Barbary Pirates or by Crimean Khanganate, mostly sold in slave markets of northern Africa and Istambul?

What about the descendants of african slaves that were enslaved by Africans themselves?

What about descendants of immigrants that arrived in the countries you talk about AFTER slavery had been abolished?

And where will the money come from? Taxes? Taxes paid by the descendants of slaves themselves?


These sort of reparations make no sense. A very good fraction of slaves were captured in Africa by local kings, in wars to control bigger territories. Just like in the ancient world, the alternative to slavery would usually been death. (meaning, if you could not enslave the population after they refused to surreder and were defeated, the alternative would usually be genocide)



Alas... what do you mean with Haiti? It's a country composed of almost pure slaves descendants. I don´t think you mean they should pay compensation for their entire population...

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Old 14th October 2021, 11:34 AM   #2157
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Okay, but some jurisdictions which are presently the United States practiced slavery under a different flag, e.g. U.S. Virgin Islands.
We should assume responsibility for descendants of slavery living in territories that we now control.
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Old 14th October 2021, 11:52 AM   #2158
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Originally Posted by AcesHigh View Post

Alas... what do you mean with Haiti? It's a country composed of almost pure slaves descendants. I don´t think you mean they should pay compensation for their entire population...
France and the US should be sending Haiti massive checks on a permanent yearly basis until it looks more like Monaco. Haiti is as clear a case for massive reparations that exists.

The rest of the objections are just the standard "we can't pay people money without a level of precision that oh would you look at that is just under what we need so lets not because someone who does not need or deserve it might get paid" line that is trotted out for basically all social spending meant to address any need or past harm.

(as opposed to business incentives or police spending when this concern vanishes)
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Old 14th October 2021, 12:00 PM   #2159
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
We should assume responsibility for descendants of slavery living in territories that we now control.
are you a germanic descendant? Angle saxon?

Good times when the Roman Republic captured some half a million Cimbri and Teutone women and children, after defeating some 300 thousand warriors at the battles of Aquae Sextiae and Vercellae. They fetched a nice value. But hey, that was in self defense, as those moving rtibes were invading the italian peninsula in 104 BC. So Italy does not owe any reparations to anyone.
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Old 14th October 2021, 01:03 PM   #2160
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
We should assume responsibility for descendants of slavery living in territories that we now control.
Fair bet that every human being on Earth is descended from slaves if we go back far enough, you're going to need to draw the circle of concern somewhat tighter than this.

ETA: I'd suggest the transatlantic slave trade in particular.
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