IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

Reply
Old 14th October 2021, 09:20 AM   #1361
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
An explanation of what? The rape they didn't know about until three months later? You seem to be confused about the timeline here, even though I just laid it out.

Anyhow, in the June 22nd meeting, some members of the public did ask probing questions about the possibility of sexual predators in school bathrooms. And were told by the Superintendent that such predators absolutely do not exist, and that no such incident had ever happened in their schools.

What other precognitive probing questions should they have asked? "In your previous statement, were you lying?" I'm sure that would have elicited an immediate confession.
Yes, asking a follow-up question about the rape and the arrest for such would be a good question. Never happened though, probably because the guy asking got arrested for getting rowdy and the rest of the crowd was too frothy mouthed about CRT to let the meeting continue.

Considering your conspiratorial view of the school board, I trust you'll understand why I don't trust your given timeline very much.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 09:22 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 09:30 AM   #1362
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,791
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, probably would have been nice to get some clarification on this, but a bunch of shrieking reactionaries mad about made up problems brought the public meeting to a grinding halt. That's kinda my point.

Maybe they could have got an explanation from the board, satisfying or not, and asked more probing questions, but they were too busy screeching about crypto-Marxism to stay on task.
The superintendent denied knowledge. Asking more questions wouldn't have changed anything. He isn't going to suddenly say, "Oh, that rape of a student on school property!".

No, let me correct that. He DIDN'T deny knowledge of the rape. He denied knowledge of any records of the rape. Let that sink in.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 09:38 AM   #1363
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The superintendent denied knowledge. Asking more questions wouldn't have changed anything. He isn't going to suddenly say, "Oh, that rape of a student on school property!".

No, let me correct that. He DIDN'T deny knowledge of the rape. He denied knowledge of any records of the rape. Let that sink in.
You seem to be reading a lot into a very brief verbal exchange.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 09:52 AM   #1364
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,358
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, asking a follow-up question about the rape and the arrest for such would be a good question. Never happened though, probably because the guy asking got arrested for getting rowdy and the rest of the crowd was too frothy mouthed about CRT to let the meeting continue.

Nice look for progressivism, again. "You opposed CRT and spoke out of turn, so you deserve to have one of your daughters assaulted by a predator we kept in your schools and didn't tell you about."

Asking that follow-up question (or more accurately, making that follow-up statement) is exactly what Smith says he was trying to do. Although, since the School Board has since stated that Smith wasn't signed up to speak at that meeting, it seems unlikely that they would have allowed him to say anything regardless.

In any case, Smith's rowdiness doesn't explain why the Superintendent and School Board chose to deny and keep it secret from the parents that an incident of sexual assault had happened at all. Were they depending on Smith breaking the news for some reason?

(There was another School Board meeting two days ago. Any guesses about what the stupid ignorant racist foul-mouthed lowlife peasant wretched dumb-ass reeking slime-bucket parents were screeching incoherently about this time? According to reporters, it was something about feeling that the safety of their kids didn't seem to be a sufficient priority for the officials. Those scum!)
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 10:01 AM   #1365
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Nice look for progressivism, again. "You opposed CRT and spoke out of turn, so you deserve to have one of your daughters assaulted by a predator we kept in your schools and didn't tell you about."

Asking that follow-up question (or more accurately, making that follow-up statement) is exactly what Smith says he was trying to do. Although, since the School Board has since stated that Smith wasn't signed up to speak at that meeting, it seems unlikely that they would have allowed him to say anything regardless.

In any case, Smith's rowdiness doesn't explain why the Superintendent and School Board chose to deny and keep it secret from the parents that an incident of sexual assault had happened at all. Were they depending on Smith breaking the news for some reason?

(There was another School Board meeting two days ago. Any guesses about what the stupid ignorant racist foul-mouthed lowlife peasant wretched dumb-ass reeking slime-bucket parents were screeching incoherently about this time? According to reporters, it was something about feeling that the safety of their kids didn't seem to be a sufficient priority for the officials. Those scum!)
The man was arrested after he got into a shouting match with another member of the public in attendance. The meeting was shortly called off because the crowd was jeering and otherwise acting like a frothy mouthed mob, making an orderly meeting impossible.

I hope the second meeting went better, maybe they would actually get some answers to their questions.

ETA: I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to sweep a crime on campus under the rug, or that a school board might be less than candid about how they handled a violent crime. I'm not seeing how having a bunch of shrieking lunatics searching for crypto-commies improves the situation. In fact, the belligerence of those engaged in this baseless moral panic about CRT make it more difficult to resolve real problems.

If I were a crooked school board member looking for a pretext to avoid public meetings, a bunch of raving lunatics screaming about CRT or whatever would be the perfect excuse to cancel a meeting.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 10:07 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 10:06 AM   #1366
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,791
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
For those in the UK*,

*Not sure if those outside the UK can access this: if not, it may be possible by downloading the BBC Sounds app.
Geoblocking is being lifted

https://twitter.com/StephenNolan/sta...72035165675522
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 10:43 AM   #1367
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
In fact, the belligerence of those engaged in this baseless moral panic about CRT make it more difficult to resolve real problems.
This is the thread about whether it's a baseless moral panic for parents to expect school officials to keep the spermshooter students out of the rooms where the ovulator students take off their knickers.

We've got a separate thread about whether it's a moral panic for parents to lose their **** over CRT.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 14th October 2021 at 11:06 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 10:45 AM   #1368
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,358
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The man was arrested after he got into a shouting match with another member of the public in attendance. The meeting was shortly called off because the crowd was jeering and otherwise acting like a frothy mouthed mob, making an orderly meeting impossible.

I hope the second meeting went better, maybe they would actually get some answers to their questions.

ETA: I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to sweep a crime on campus under the rug, or that a school board might be less than candid about how they handled a violent crime. I'm not seeing how having a bunch of shrieking lunatics searching for crypto-commies improves the situation. In fact, the belligerence of those engaged in this baseless moral panic about CRT make it more difficult to resolve real problems.

If I were a crooked school board member looking for a pretext to avoid public meetings, a bunch of raving lunatics screaming about CRT or whatever would be the perfect excuse to cancel a meeting.

Yes, that's the lesson we should all learn here. Be polite at meetings.

All that minor stuff about lying to the public, press gaslighting, quietly relocating a suspected predator, putting students at risk resulting in an assault, zealously prosecuting an inconvenient victim's father, we should take a look at all that but not until we've all learned to be polite at meetings.

I've never heard of anyone deciding to home-school their kids because someone got disruptive at a School Board meeting, but whatever. Fiddle away while progressivism in the U.S. burns.

(This reminds me eerily of my elementary school days, with teachers obsessed with students lining up in straight lines. An orderly evenly-spaced line of third graders wasn't good enough, it also had to be perfectly straight. It's a fire drill and we have to evacuate, but not yet because your line isn't straight enough. Priorities, people! Lucy, move a little to your left. Tommy, stop rocking back and forth. I always wondered if the teachers would do that during an actual fire as well, and figured they probably would, and Tommy would kill us all.)
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...

Last edited by Myriad; 14th October 2021 at 10:46 AM.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 10:50 AM   #1369
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Yes, that's the lesson we should all learn here. Be polite at meetings.

All that minor stuff about lying to the public, press gaslighting, quietly relocating a suspected predator, putting students at risk resulting in an assault, zealously prosecuting an inconvenient victim's father, we should take a look at all that but not until we've all learned to be polite at meetings.

I've never heard of anyone deciding to home-school their kids because someone got disruptive at a School Board meeting, but whatever. Fiddle away while progressivism in the U.S. burns.

(This reminds me eerily of my elementary school days, with teachers obsessed with students lining up in straight lines. An orderly evenly-spaced line of third graders wasn't good enough, it also had to be perfectly straight. It's a fire drill and we have to evacuate, but not yet because your line isn't straight enough. Priorities, people! Lucy, move a little to your left. Tommy, stop rocking back and forth. I always wondered if the teachers would do that during an actual fire as well, and figured they probably would, and Tommy would kill us all.)
What exactly did getting convicted of a petty crime accomplish?

hell, the story is only back in the headlines because the guy talked to the press, something that was always an option and didn't require getting manhandled by cops at a public meeting to accomplish.

Getting rowdy at the meeting, followed by anti-CRT weirdos shrieking until it was summarily canceled, did not improve this man's position.

ETA: It's also important to note that this recent update comes courtesy of The Daily Wire, a rag journal of Breitbart tier level of dedication to truth. As of yet, the man's claims are totally unsupported by fact.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 10:52 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 11:46 AM   #1370
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,358
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What exactly did getting convicted of a petty crime accomplish?

It exposed that Loudoun County Commonwealthís Attorney Buta Biberaj's touted policy of leniency doesn't apply, for some unfathomable reason, to blue collar cis white males.

Quote:
hell, the story is only back in the headlines because the guy talked to the press, something that was always an option and didn't require getting manhandled by cops at a public meeting to accomplish.

Talking to the press was never an easy option. First, and most important, doing so would out his daughter as a rape victim not only within but well beyond the community. If he's at all a caring father, he'd want to spare her that if possible.

Second, he thought the matter was being addressed sufficiently because he was never told that the predator was released from custody.

He only attempted to speak out to the community when it became clear that the school officials were lying about the safety record. And after he attempted to speak out to the community, he had charges pending and then a suspended sentence contingent on "good behavior" hanging over him, as well as (he says, this part is unconfirmed) threats to his business from progressives in the clique.

With all of that, he didn't go to the press, until he found out that the predator hadn't been kept in custody after all, and that another girl in the school system had been assaulted as a result. For a man with a conscience, that would change everything, and did.

Quote:
ETA: It's also important to note that this recent update comes courtesy of The Daily Wire, a rag journal of Breitbart tier level of dedication to truth. As of yet, the man's claims are totally unsupported by fact.

Partly true. However, a lot of additional information has come out since the Daily Wire story, and so far all of it (notwithstanding the School Board's self-serving "the student somehow ended up in a different class by black magic without anyone having any choice or knowledge about it" statement from yesterday) has been consistent with Smith's story.

I didn't think that would happen, actually. I thought the right-wingers would jump on this and make transphobic noise about it, and the progressives would quickly poke all kinds of holes in it, like it would turn out Smith did something much worse than calling a woman who was throwing vile insults at him and his daughter a bitch to prompt his arrest, or the police weren't sure the second assault really happened, or the school officials had actually acknowledged the first assault in some constrained official way and the parents just hadn't been paying attention, or something that would show the story up as slanted propaganda.

Instead, so far, I'm seeing confirmation of the broad outlines of the story, and apologetics and what appears to be deliberately missing the point ("look over there, CRT and bad behavior at meetings!") from you.

And I'd still like an explanation of how "I'm not seeing how moving a student to a different school away from an alleged victim is anything but a prudent action" makes any rational sense at all. Unless, you think she was asking for it?
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 12:36 PM   #1371
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,699
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post


Instead, so far, I'm seeing confirmation of the broad outlines of the story, and apologetics and what appears to be deliberately missing the point ("look over there, CRT and bad behavior at meetings!") from you.

And I'd still like an explanation of how "I'm not seeing how moving a student to a different school away from an alleged victim is anything but a prudent action" makes any rational sense at all. Unless, you think she was asking for it?
'All that matters is controlling the narrative'. The narrative is based on ideology, not truth. It makes sense if you look at things that way.
__________________
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." - Aldous Huxley.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 01:01 PM   #1372
Elaedith
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,699
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
Yes, it's available worldwide now. I'm up to episode 5, featuring Dr David Bell discussing gender dysphoria in children and adolescents. He did a brilliant job, in particular explaining the damage done by spurious analogous with sexual orientation.
__________________
"The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone." - Aldous Huxley.
Elaedith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 02:22 PM   #1373
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Sow, definitely.

Can you arrange some canine drugs so I can call you a bitch?
Darling, you can call me a bitch however often you please.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 02:26 PM   #1374
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
American healthcare sucks, you don't have to convince me of this. Not sure why it's trans people's fault that your insurer would rather let you suffer from a treatable condition. Take it up with those responsible (hint: it's not trans people)
You're right, it's not trans people - it's trans lobbyists and activists. They're the ones who, while simultaneously arguing that trans people are the most oppressed and marginalized people ever, have managed to push through legislation that allows transgender identified females to get hysterectomies as necessary for their affirmation... but don't give a crap about females who have actual goddamned medical conditions that *should* justify a hysterectomy.

It's not the medical industry that is the problem - it's the legislative bodies that are pushing an ideological narrative into health care.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:36 PM   #1375
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You're right, it's not trans people - it's trans lobbyists and activists. They're the ones who, while simultaneously arguing that trans people are the most oppressed and marginalized people ever, have managed to push through legislation that allows transgender identified females to get hysterectomies as necessary for their affirmation... but don't give a crap about females who have actual goddamned medical conditions that *should* justify a hysterectomy.

It's not the medical industry that is the problem - it's the legislative bodies that are pushing an ideological narrative into health care.
Show me a single citation that trans lobbies are opposed to cis women getting necessary medical care, I'll wait.

Your animus is showing here pretty strongly.

ETA: A zero-sum view of rights is a pretty common way for reactionaries to look at things, but is not actually how the world works. Trans people getting better access to gender affirming healthcare is not an assault on the rights of others to get necessary medical care.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 03:37 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #1376
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It exposed that Loudoun County Commonwealth’s Attorney Buta Biberaj's touted policy of leniency doesn't apply, for some unfathomable reason, to blue collar cis white males.




Talking to the press was never an easy option. First, and most important, doing so would out his daughter as a rape victim not only within but well beyond the community. If he's at all a caring father, he'd want to spare her that if possible.

Second, he thought the matter was being addressed sufficiently because he was never told that the predator was released from custody.

He only attempted to speak out to the community when it became clear that the school officials were lying about the safety record. And after he attempted to speak out to the community, he had charges pending and then a suspended sentence contingent on "good behavior" hanging over him, as well as (he says, this part is unconfirmed) threats to his business from progressives in the clique.

With all of that, he didn't go to the press, until he found out that the predator hadn't been kept in custody after all, and that another girl in the school system had been assaulted as a result. For a man with a conscience, that would change everything, and did.




Partly true. However, a lot of additional information has come out since the Daily Wire story, and so far all of it (notwithstanding the School Board's self-serving "the student somehow ended up in a different class by black magic without anyone having any choice or knowledge about it" statement from yesterday) has been consistent with Smith's story.

I didn't think that would happen, actually. I thought the right-wingers would jump on this and make transphobic noise about it, and the progressives would quickly poke all kinds of holes in it, like it would turn out Smith did something much worse than calling a woman who was throwing vile insults at him and his daughter a bitch to prompt his arrest, or the police weren't sure the second assault really happened, or the school officials had actually acknowledged the first assault in some constrained official way and the parents just hadn't been paying attention, or something that would show the story up as slanted propaganda.

Instead, so far, I'm seeing confirmation of the broad outlines of the story, and apologetics and what appears to be deliberately missing the point ("look over there, CRT and bad behavior at meetings!") from you.

And I'd still like an explanation of how "I'm not seeing how moving a student to a different school away from an alleged victim is anything but a prudent action" makes any rational sense at all. Unless, you think she was asking for it?
I'm still trying to figure out what this one guy's gripe (rooted in pretty serious concerns about how the school handled a violent crime) has anything to do with the topic of this thread.

It honestly sounds like mostly a coincidence that he was there and had his outburst during a meeting that was otherwise dominated by a CRT/transphobia freakout. Seems the large audience of frothy mouthed rubes were totally unaware of his problem when they decided to descend on the school board to hoot and holler. If that's the case, his concerns aren't really on topic for this thread. Messy reporting conflated his arrest for trying to accost someone as related to the broader CRT freakout, which may not be true.

What does this guys gripe exactly have to do with the topic?
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 03:41 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:45 PM   #1377
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What does this guys gripe exactly have to do with the topic?
Something to do with when it's okay to challenge someone for being in the ladies room, perhaps.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:47 PM   #1378
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Something to do with when it's okay to challenge someone for being in the ladies room, perhaps.
Considering the story alleges the same person is accused of committing the very same kind of crime not within a girl's bathroom shortly after the first incident, it seems that magical barriers outside bathrooms don't seem to deter people who want to commit sex crime.

The kind of person that will push someone into an empty classroom and commit a forcible rape while already under investigation for a sex crime is not interested in what sign is hanging outside a bathroom.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 03:52 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:52 PM   #1379
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Considering the story alleges the same person is accused of committing the very same kind of crime not within a girl's bathroom shortly after the first incident, it seems that magical barriers outside bathrooms don't seem to deter people who want to commit sex crime.
There is nothing remotely magical about females confronting a male for trangressing into a designated space; it's the sort of thing that surely would happen if females were assured that they've been given a space to be safe from males.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be arguing that such spaces ought not exist.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 14th October 2021 at 03:54 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:54 PM   #1380
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There is nothing remotely magical about females confronting a male for trangressing into a designated space; it's the sort of thing that surely would happen if females were assured that they've been given a space to be safe from males.
What's that have to do with this case of a someone accused of multiple forcible rape?

Do you think these crimes would not have occurred with a different bathroom policy? Seems unlikely, considering the second one didn't involve a bathroom at all.

This person, if reports are true, sounds exceptionally dangerous. Not sure what that has to do with the topic of the thread though, other than just another scare story to bolster the already well debunked myth of the danger of trans people in bathrooms.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:56 PM   #1381
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Do you think this crimes would not have occurred with a different bathroom policy?
We don't know the details yet, but it's surely possible that the perp in question would've been hustled out of the ladies room in earlier times, back when it was clear to students and staff that he was not allowed therein.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be arguing that he ought to have been allowed therein.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:58 PM   #1382
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
We don't know the details yet, but it's surely possible that the perp in question would've been hustled out of the ladies room in earlier times, back when it was clear to students and staff that he was not allowed therein.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to be arguing that he ought to have been allowed therein.
I'm arguing that bathroom policy wouldn't have much impact on someone determined to commit forcible rape, as evidenced by the circumstances of the second alleged incident that had nothing to do with bathrooms.

Anecdotes aside, there is no data that shows that trans inclusion in bathrooms increases danger. Or has that changed? This is a skeptics forum after all, do you have data suggesting otherwise, or just rely on particularly nasty anecdotes?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 03:59 PM   #1383
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
...just another scare story to bolster the already well debunked myth of the danger of trans people in bathrooms.
Are you saying the alleged perpetrator isn't dangerous or isn't trans?
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 14th October 2021 at 04:00 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:00 PM   #1384
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm arguing that bathroom policy wouldn't have much impact on someone determined to commit forcible rape, as evidenced by the circumstances of the second alleged incident that had nothing to do with bathrooms.
The second incident tells us nothing about whether sex segregation would've prevented the first one.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:02 PM   #1385
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This is a skeptics forum after all, do you have data suggesting otherwise, or just rely on particularly nasty anecdotes?
If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:02 PM   #1386
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Are you saying the alleged perpetrator isn't dangerous or isn't trans?
Neither.

DO you think policy should be made based on the most recent anecdote of horrible crime?

You didn't answer my question. Is there any data showing that trans inclusion in bathrooms leads to an increase in crime there?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:03 PM   #1387
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Is there any data showing that trans inclusion in bathrooms leads to an increase in crime there?
If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:06 PM   #1388
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If we cannot agree that this is at least a potential data point, I see no point in gathering more data.
I never said it wasn't a data point, though there's very little certainty about whether this student was trans or was actually allowed to be in the bathroom.

Has there been a spike or not?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:07 PM   #1389
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Has there been a spike or not?
In bathroom assaults? I don't think the FBI tracks that in their crime stats.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:08 PM   #1390
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems to be an awful lot of fanfic going into filling the huge gaps in this story with a pernicious conspiracy theory.

Does the school board even have the authority to prevent a student from attending a public school while they are accused of a crime? What authority does the board have to expel a student from all public schools?

I'm not seeing how moving a student to a different school away from an alleged victim is anything but a prudent action.

It seems safe to say that the school had nothing to do with a student being required to wear an ankle monitor. Sounds like it was a condition of a pretrial release or as part of a criminal conviction. Schools don't have authority to make students wear GPS anklets.
Won't someone think of the poor rapist!!!!! All of this conspiracy theory just to make some innocent transperson look bad, it's disgusting! I bet those young females got themselves rape and assaulted on purpose, just because they're transphobic bigots!!!!

I should stop being surprised by the complete lack of compassion extended toward females, I suppose.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:09 PM   #1391
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In bathroom assaults? I don't think the FBI tracks that in their crime stats.
So you have nothing to suggest that trans inclusion is a threat in bathrooms, other than your gut instinct and totally non-statistical anecdotes.

How is this meaningfully different than white racists that recite the grisly details of black crime?
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:10 PM   #1392
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, probably would have been nice to get some clarification on this, but a bunch of shrieking reactionaries mad about made up problems brought the public meeting to a grinding halt. That's kinda my point.

Maybe they could have got an explanation from the board, satisfying or not, and asked more probing questions, but they were too busy screeching about crypto-Marxism to stay on task.
Seems like this would be an appropriate post in the CRT thread, not in here.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:15 PM   #1393
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Seems like this would be an appropriate post in the CRT thread, not in here.
You might not believe me, but the moral panic about trans people has a lot to do with the right wing freakout about CRT, in that both are largely imagined problems meant to advance the right wing culture war.

It's no coincidence that, in these frothing masses of reactionaries, the two issues often bleed together.

ETA: I suppose the trans freakout deserves slightly more respect, in the sense that trans people actually exist, which is saying a lot compared to the entirely imagined threat of CRT.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:18 PM   #1394
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The man was arrested after he got into a shouting match with another member of the public in attendance. The meeting was shortly called off because the crowd was jeering and otherwise acting like a frothy mouthed mob, making an orderly meeting impossible.

I hope the second meeting went better, maybe they would actually get some answers to their questions.

ETA: I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to sweep a crime on campus under the rug, or that a school board might be less than candid about how they handled a violent crime. I'm not seeing how having a bunch of shrieking lunatics searching for crypto-commies improves the situation. In fact, the belligerence of those engaged in this baseless moral panic about CRT make it more difficult to resolve real problems.

If I were a crooked school board member looking for a pretext to avoid public meetings, a bunch of raving lunatics screaming about CRT or whatever would be the perfect excuse to cancel a meeting.
There's a lot of effort being put into trying to convince everyone not to look behind the curtain. Lots of inflammatory rhetoric intended to demonize and paint all of the parents as completely off their rockers and not worthy of any consideration at all - including the one whose female child was raped.

Interestingly, not a whit of acknowledgement that the perpetrator is transgender. We've been told over and over and over and over that this would never happen - no transgender identified male would EVER harm a female, it's all a made up hysterical right wing conspiracy and there's no proof at all - none! We've been told over and over and over that there's absolutely zero risk to females by allowing transgender identified males who've had no surgery and no treatment and no ******* diagnosis have access to female restrooms and locker rooms solely on their spoken declaration of their gender identity - none at all, it's a conspiracy put together by frothing TERFs and transphobes.

It's very convenient that there's this coincidental element of anti-racism going on that you can redirect attention to so you don't have to actually engage with the problem here.







* "This is an outlier, you can't use that as an example" in 3.... 2.... 1....
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:21 PM   #1395
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There's a lot of effort being put into trying to convince everyone not to look behind the curtain. Lots of inflammatory rhetoric intended to demonize and paint all of the parents as completely off their rockers and not worthy of any consideration at all - including the one whose female child was raped.

Interestingly, not a whit of acknowledgement that the perpetrator is transgender. We've been told over and over and over and over that this would never happen - no transgender identified male would EVER harm a female, it's all a made up hysterical right wing conspiracy and there's no proof at all - none! We've been told over and over and over that there's absolutely zero risk to females by allowing transgender identified males who've had no surgery and no treatment and no ******* diagnosis have access to female restrooms and locker rooms solely on their spoken declaration of their gender identity - none at all, it's a conspiracy put together by frothing TERFs and transphobes.

It's very convenient that there's this coincidental element of anti-racism going on that you can redirect attention to so you don't have to actually engage with the problem here.







* "This is an outlier, you can't use that as an example" in 3.... 2.... 1....
Considering that we know next to nothing about the alleged perpetrator, I think it's fair to be cautious about such declarations. Given that the accused is a juvenile, there's a decent chance we won't get much more detail.

The way they are described, the person sounds more on the nonbinary side than out and out transgender. I (and you) have no idea how this person identifies.

Considering the same student had no problem forcing a student into a classroom to commit forcible rape (allegedly), I see no reason to assume permission to access a women's restroom was a meaningful barrier to criminal activity.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that a school admin tried to cover up a violent crime. I see very little evidence to assume this is rooted in some pro-trans agenda, rather than any other explanation (such as the extremely common instinct for authority figures to try to conceal bad news that occurs under their watch).
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 04:23 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #1396
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Yes, it's available worldwide now. I'm up to episode 5, featuring Dr David Bell discussing gender dysphoria in children and adolescents. He did a brilliant job, in particular explaining the damage done by spurious analogous with sexual orientation.
I haven't had a chance to watch it yet, but it's sitting in another tab waiting until I have time
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #1397
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,896
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So you have nothing to suggest that trans inclusion is a threat in bathrooms, other than your gut instinct and totally non-statistical anecdotes.
Well, that and all the stats about male sexual violence.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:25 PM   #1398
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Well, that and all the stats about male sexual violence.
Sure, that male aggression must show up in the data after trans-inclusive policies were adopted, right?

Quote:
Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy violations in public restrooms if such laws are passed, while proponents argue that such laws are needed to protect transgender people and concerns regarding safety and privacy violations are unfounded. No empirical evidence has been gathered to test such laws’ effects. This study presents findings from matched pairs analyses of localities in Massachusetts with and without gender identity inclusive public accommodation nondiscrimination ordinances. Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded.
Whoops

https://link.springer.com/article/10...178-018-0335-z

This is a skeptics forum, right? Put up the evidence.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:25 PM   #1399
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,738
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Show me a single citation that trans lobbies are opposed to cis women getting necessary medical care, I'll wait.

Your animus is showing here pretty strongly.
Poor argumentation. I never suggested they were opposed to cis women getting care. What I am suggesting is that this oh-so-powerless-and-extremely-marginalized group somehow has the power to get legislation passed to make their cosmetic surgeries a mandatory benefit.

The trans lobby has enough power to position non-medically-necessary treatment as a higher priority than medically justified treatment. Because feelings are more important than females.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th October 2021, 04:27 PM   #1400
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,498
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Poor argumentation. I never suggested they were opposed to cis women getting care. What I am suggesting is that this oh-so-powerless-and-extremely-marginalized group somehow has the power to get legislation passed to make their cosmetic surgeries a mandatory benefit.

The trans lobby has enough power to position non-medically-necessary treatment as a higher priority than medically justified treatment. Because feelings are more important than females.
oooooo a mandatory benefit. aka the only type of benefit that is covered by insurance in this country. Spare me the spooky language.

One state has accepted that trans affirming care should be a covered medical service. Stop the presses! Take solace in the fact that trans affirming care remains out of reach for many.

How does trans people having access to medical care they want harm you or other cis women?

ETA: There's probably no shortage of trans people that would happily join you in an effort to demand better medical care from our terrible health system, but you might not find that association personally acceptable.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 14th October 2021 at 04:36 PM.
SuburbanTurkey is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.