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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 28th September 2020, 12:41 AM   #441
Orphia Nay
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I see the gang is out in force, as I expected they would be.

I'm outnumbered, and will not be drawn into arguing against the same misleading line of reasoning they're in, except to say that the huge EAT-Lancet Global Health Commission metastudy was outnumbered in the same way by the forces of the overly-powerful meat and dairy industry.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:05 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I see the gang is out in force, as I expected they would be.

I'm outnumbered, and will not be drawn into arguing against the same misleading line of reasoning they're in, except to say that the huge EAT-Lancet Global Health Commission metastudy was outnumbered in the same way by the forces of the overly-powerful meat and dairy industry.
From the abstract: "Third, more than half of all diet-related deaths and two-thirds of diet-related DALYs were attributable to just three factors: high intake of sodium, low intake of whole grains, and low intake of fruit." I guess red meat, saturated fats, and cholesterol are further down the list.


Also: " This evidence largely endorses a case for moving from nutrient-based to food-based guidelines. Their findings also reinforce those of the EAT–Lancet Commission on optimising diets for sustainable food systems, achievable through predominantly plant-based diets " Can you spell B-I-A-S ?

And oh, by the way: If you consider all risk factors, not just diet, the #1 risk factor is hypertension. Not meat or saturated fats. That is from the same Global Health Commission, but a different study.
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Old 28th September 2020, 12:39 PM   #443
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Quote:
high intake of sodium, low intake of whole grains, and low intake of fruit."
Translation = High intake of processed foods, high intake of processed grains ( processed foods ) and high intake of processed foods.

Nothing about a diet primarily from animal sourced foods..

Clearly the Maasai people ( or the Inuit ) were not included in the study.
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Old 28th September 2020, 02:22 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Translation = High intake of processed foods, high intake of processed grains ( processed foods ) and high intake of processed foods.

Nothing about a diet primarily from animal sourced foods..

Clearly the Maasai people ( or the Inuit ) were not included in the study.
I'm safe, I don't buy any processed foods. Yesterday was recycling bin day, every two weeks. Mine was empty. No cardboard packing, no tin cans. No pizza boxes.

I buy a chunk of beef, cut my own steaks. A chunk of pork, make my own hams. A chunk of beef AND a chunk of pork and make my own sausages. Lacto-ferment sauerkraut and pickles . I don't even peel the potatoes I eat. I grind buckwheat into flour.

Old timey, they used salt as the sole preservative. I have a refrigerator and freezer. So I cut back on the salt in all those recipes. And "low sodium" is 2 grams/day, or 3.5 grams of salt. I weight that out once. That is HUGE. Then I subtracted all the sodium in my diet. I was only half done with that pile. So I don't worry about sodium. And the doc has me on diuretic too.

But my hypertension is crazy bad. It's not diet, it's genes. The elastin gene.

And another + for science based medicine was an article from some Fellows of American College of somespeciality, low sodium diets do nothing. Orphia's link is biased.
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Old 28th September 2020, 05:36 PM   #445
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Salt is a red herring..

It's harder to get enough rather than too much..
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Old 28th September 2020, 08:22 PM   #446
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Eat an apple and go for a walk
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I AGREE
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Old 28th September 2020, 08:34 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by MMarco View Post
Eat an apple and go for a walk
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Shocking!
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Old 29th September 2020, 11:00 AM   #448
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I hope I feel sufficiently guilty because I thought it was funny..
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Old 1st October 2020, 12:40 PM   #449
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
...I don't even peel the potatoes I eat....
But do you dicks them?
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Old 24th November 2020, 11:44 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The EPIC-Oxford study of vegetarianism showed no mortality advantage to the vegetarian diet. Less obviously, it showed no health advantage to less red meat or lower animal fats, and no advantage to high fiber.....?
Another conclusion from EPIC-Oxford vegetarianism.

Quote:
Non-meat eaters, especially vegans, had higher risks of either total or some site-specific fractures, particularly hip fractures. This is the first prospective study of diet group with both total and multiple specific fracture sites in vegetarians and vegans, and the findings suggest that bone health in vegans requires further research.
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Old 25th November 2020, 06:43 PM   #451
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Another relevant article..

A low-fat, high-carb diet has been the largest public health experiment in history. As the world gets ever fatter, we MUST rethink

Quote:
A recent report from the Potsdam Institute predicts that by 2050 there will be four billion overweight people in the world, with one-and-a-half billion of them obese. This is not entirely surprising. The world has been getting fatter for years, and things do not seem to be slowing down.
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Old 2nd February 2021, 01:37 PM   #452
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Appetite reduction:
Quote:
The dietary fiber polydextrose, dietary pulses, dairy products, ketogenic diets, the bioactive component capsaiconioids, and manipulation of food structure using vegetable oil formulation (Fabuless™/Olibra®), were found to have the potential to reduce appetite.
Conclusion
Overall, these concepts resulted in rather moderate, but still potentially meaningful, reductions in appetite. Thereby, new food-based concepts may be effective tools to fill the “therapeutic gap” between traditional body weight management interventions and pharmaceutical or surgical approaches.
Food-based concepts used for appetite manipulation in humans – A systematic review of systematic reviews with meta-analyses (Obesity Medicine, Vol. 22, March 2021)
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Old 12th February 2021, 01:22 AM   #453
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More appetite reduction: semaglutide.
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The mean change in body weight from baseline to week 68 was −14.9% in the semaglutide group as compared with −2.4% with placebo, for an estimated treatment difference of −12.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval [CI], −13.4 to −11.5; P<0.001). More participants in the semaglutide group than in the placebo group achieved weight reductions of 5% or more (1047 participants [86.4%] vs. 182 [31.5%]), 10% or more (838 [69.1%] vs. 69 [12.0%]), and 15% or more (612 [50.5%] vs. 28 [4.9%]) at week 68 (P<0.001 for all three comparisons of odds). The change in body weight from baseline to week 68 was −15.3 kg in the semaglutide group as compared with −2.6 kg in the placebo group (estimated treatment difference, −12.7 kg; 95% CI, −13.7 to −11.7).
(...)
In participants with overweight or obesity, 2.4 mg of semaglutide once weekly plus lifestyle intervention was associated with sustained, clinically relevant reduction in body weight.
Once-Weekly Semaglutide in Adults with Overweight or Obesity (NEJM, Feb. 10, 2021)
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Mens midlet i gennemsnit giver vægttab på 12-15 procent af kropsvægten, giver en operation et langt større vægttab på omkring 30 procent.
Nyt slankemiddel er 'starten på en ny æra', siger professor (TV2.dk, Feb. 11, 2021)
On average, the medicine results in weight loss of 12 to 15 percent of body weight, but an operation results in much greater weight loss of about 30 percent.
New weight-loss product is 'the beginning of a new era,' says professor
It was developed to treat diabetes, but trials showed that it caused weight loss.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th February 2021, 09:36 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
On average, the medicine results in weight loss of 12 to 15 percent of body weight, but an operation results in much greater weight loss of about 30 percent.
New weight-loss product is 'the beginning of a new era,' says professor
It was developed to treat diabetes, but trials showed that it caused weight loss.

That summary doesn't tell us whether the weight loss had leveled out at 68 weeks or continued to drop on average.
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Old 12th February 2021, 10:37 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
That summary doesn't tell us whether the weight loss had leveled out at 68 weeks or continued to drop on average.
Here is the paper

https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa2032183

Also worth noting is that it's already approved for use in type 2 diabetes. The typical dosage for diabetes is somewhat smaller though.
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Old 21st July 2021, 03:27 PM   #456
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new (free) review article entitled Fasting: How to Guide

Apologies - posted in wrong thread & can't figure out to delete. That being said, fasting (without malnutrition)/fasting mimicking diets, etc. have been shown to aid in combatting obesity

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Old 28th September 2021, 09:17 AM   #457
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Here are some papers/studies that some may find interesting.


Special Issue "Towards Better Dietary Guidelines: New Approaches Based on Recent Science"

Topics discussed:

Dietary Saturated Fats and Health: Are the U.S. Guidelines Evidence-Based?

Alternative Dietary Patterns for Americans: Low-Carbohydrate Diets

Sodium Intake and Health: What Should We Recommend Based on the Current Evidence?
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Old 29th September 2021, 06:58 PM   #458
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Here are some papers/studies that some may find interesting.


Special Issue "Towards Better Dietary Guidelines: New Approaches Based on Recent Science"

Topics discussed:

Dietary Saturated Fats and Health: Are the U.S. Guidelines Evidence-Based?

Alternative Dietary Patterns for Americans: Low-Carbohydrate Diets

Sodium Intake and Health: What Should We Recommend Based on the Current Evidence?
Luvit. Yea!!! Evidence based!

Anecdote: I had heat stroke last week. Changing a flat on the side of the freeway, 95 degrees. I wasn't sweating, but panting. Many breaks before I got it off the jack. Half hour later at home my temp was 100. Seems my sodium lowering diuretic (chlorthalidone) has the side effect of preventing sweating. Some trade off eh? Heat stroke, +/- or the ability to exercise, for maybe, possibly, sort of, postponing kidney failure. Of course over heating and dehydration are also death to kidneys. I am rapidly losing faith in medicinal treatments.
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Old 29th September 2021, 08:14 PM   #459
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Stone age humans were able to acquire enough nutrients to not only survive, but to thrive. And thrive they must have, since the stone age led to the bronze age to the iron age to the industrial age to the space age to the information age to the infrastructure age.

The question is whether infrastructure age humans can thrive on stone age nutrient supplies.
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Old 30th September 2021, 06:45 AM   #460
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Then there was the Neolithic Revolution which was the start of health problems we enjoy today..

Quote:
Compared to foragers, Neolithic farmers' diets were higher in carbohydrates but lower in fibre, micronutrients, and protein. This led to an increase in the frequency of carious teeth[7] and slower growth in childhood and increased body fat, and studies have consistently found that populations around the world became shorter after the transition to agriculture.
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Old 30th September 2021, 07:02 AM   #461
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Commentary from Derek Lowe:

https://www.science.org/content/blog...inking-obesity

Quote:
Like many people, I have a shelf that has several of my old high school and college yearbooks on it. The faces and scenes they depict are receding farther back in time, damn it all, and as they do they take on interesting aspects that you couldn't have predicted at the time. In my case, the high school ones are from the late 1970s and the college ones are correspondingly from the early 1980s. The hairstyles and the clothing therein have over the years cycled in and out of looking (alternately) odd and old-fashioned or weirdly contemporary, as these things do. Just about any electronic device looks bizarre, of course, and more bizarre by the year - it's the same feeling of watching someone in an old sitcom episode pick up a portable telephone the size of an uncut loaf of bread.

But you know what looks strange, to the point of being unable to not notice it once you've seen it? How thin almost everyone is. I don't (necessarily) mean by comparison to their later selves, but just in general. And it's not just because these are pictures of high school and college students, because (1) people of those ages definitely aren't as thin as that now and (2) the same observation applies to the photos of the faculty and staff. Looking at these pictures, you inescapably have to admit that people have gotten bulkier over the years, in every category. The numbers bear this out, of course. Sixty years ago, the estimate is that just under 15% of the US population had a BMI over 30, and now it's more like 40%. A lot of those gains have come since the early 1980s, and one rather startling statistic is that the least obese state now (Colorado) would have been the most obese state with those same numbers in 1980, and by a wide margin. Similar trends are obvious in many other countries around the world.
. . .

Here's a new review (open access) of the proposed mechanism. In short, eating a high-glycemic-load diet (rich in easily metabolized carbohydrates) deranges the insulin signaling axis towards glucose uptake, lipogenesis, and fat storage. It's not just the calorie content; there are consequences to the fat storage that get worse over time. Instead of a positive calorie balance gradually increasing fat deposition, this is more the opposite: fat deposition (caused by high glycemic foods) drives a positive energy balance. The solution would be to avoid diet rich in high glycemic foods, favoring one whose calories come more from proteins and oils.
Who is old enough to remember the 1970s and 1980s and remember what was different about how we ate back then, as well as differences in lifestyle?

I was born in 1970, but my memory of supermarkets at the time is that there was less food available that came ready to eat right out of the package. Food needed to be prepared before you could eat it, and it took some time and effort to do that.

I think it's the cumulative effect of thousands of innovations we've made to make life easier, and more convenient. And this allows us to be more sedentary and food has become more and more convenient to consume. The microwave oven, the escalator, the elevator, all these innovations that make using your muscles unnecessary. There's no doubt that people were much thinner 50 years ago. Every new invention that makes some aspect of life easier adds to the problem.
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Old 30th September 2021, 08:50 AM   #462
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I haven't thought that much about yearbooks, but that is an interesting and telling ruler.

I think about street scenes form the 40's, 50's and 60's VS now..
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Old 4th October 2021, 01:02 PM   #463
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Commentary from Derek Lowe:

https://www.science.org/content/blog...inking-obesity



Who is old enough to remember the 1970s and 1980s and remember what was different about how we ate back then, as well as differences in lifestyle?

I was born in 1970, but my memory of supermarkets at the time is that there was less food available that came ready to eat right out of the package. Food needed to be prepared before you could eat it, and it took some time and effort to do that.

I think it's the cumulative effect of thousands of innovations we've made to make life easier, and more convenient. And this allows us to be more sedentary and food has become more and more convenient to consume. The microwave oven, the escalator, the elevator, all these innovations that make using your muscles unnecessary. There's no doubt that people were much thinner 50 years ago. Every new invention that makes some aspect of life easier adds to the problem.
I remember starting college in the mid 80's and being warned against the dreaded "Freshman Five" pounds of inevitable weight gain. Now I hear it's become the "Freshman Fifteen." I guess one day it will be the "Freshman Fifty..."
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Old 5th October 2021, 12:33 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Commentary from Derek Lowe:

https://www.science.org/content/blog...inking-obesity



Who is old enough to remember the 1970s and 1980s and remember what was different about how we ate back then, as well as differences in lifestyle?

I was born in 1970, but my memory of supermarkets at the time is that there was less food available that came ready to eat right out of the package. Food needed to be prepared before you could eat it, and it took some time and effort to do that.

Unless you chase the chicken, kill it and pluck it yourself - and only a tiny number of people did that in the 1970s and 1980s - you don't burn many calories preparing food. An easy, convenient life doesn't make you fat.

Quote:
I think it's the cumulative effect of thousands of innovations we've made to make life easier, and more convenient. And this allows us to be more sedentary and food has become more and more convenient to consume. The microwave oven, the escalator, the elevator, all these innovations that make using your muscles unnecessary. There's no doubt that people were much thinner 50 years ago. Every new invention that makes some aspect of life easier adds to the problem.

People tend to love the explanation that making things easier is what makes people fat as if work is the only way the get exercise, but that is not the case. The access to healthy tasty food and to enjoyable forms of exercise that you do for fun and don't have to force yourself to do is what matters. If you can only afford low-quality, sugary food and live in a neighborhood that doesn't encourage you to get out of the house for a walk or a bike ride, you are more likely to get fat. This doesn't happen to rich people even to the same degree even if their maid does all the shopping, cleaning and cooking.
Poverty and Obesity in the U.S. (Nov, 2011)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 5th October 2021, 03:23 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Unless you chase the chicken, kill it and pluck it yourself - and only a tiny number of people did that in the 1970s and 1980s - you don't burn many calories preparing food. An easy, convenient life doesn't make you fat.
So you say, and yet it's undeniable that people have gotten fatter than they were in the 1970s and 1980s. Certainly in the US, but also in other countries, I think.

So what do you suppose is different between now and then?

Something to do with either diets, or lifestyles, or both, no? What could it be?

By the way, it's not about how many calories you burn preparing food. It's about the convenience, which makes it so easy to overconsume. It's about increased opportunities to consume food throughout the day, between meals, and not only at scheduled meal times. You don't have to stop whatever it is you are doing to go cook a meal; it only takes a moment or two to get something out of the fridge or whatever to munch on.

We don't even have to leave our house to shop anymore. Everything can be ordered online and delivered to your front door.

You can choose to exercise, but you aren't forced to anymore.
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Old 5th October 2021, 04:34 AM   #466
dann
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So you say, and yet it's undeniable that people have gotten fatter than they were in the 1970s and 1980s. Certainly in the US, but also in other countries, I think.

So what do you suppose is different between now and then?

Something to do with either diets, or lifestyles, or both, no? What could it be?

By the way, it's not about how many calories you burn preparing food. It's about the convenience, which makes it so easy to overconsume. It's about increased opportunities to consume food throughout the day, between meals, and not only at scheduled meal times. You don't have to stop whatever it is you are doing to go cook a meal; it only takes a moment or two to get something out of the fridge or whatever to munch on.

It was always 'convenient' and easy for the rich to overconsume, and yet most of them didn't and still don't. And they had (and have) people to do everything for them, and yet they don't tend to get fat. The poor do because they don't have access to healthy food and enjoyable exercise the same way the rich do.
The difference is that fattening, low-quality food and a couch and TV set is what poor people have easy access to.

Quote:
We don't even have to leave our house to shop anymore. Everything can be ordered online and delivered to your front door.

You can choose to exercise, but you aren't forced to anymore.

Yes, you can choose to exercise, and most people aren't forced to do so, unless they are in the army, in school or in jail. But if you don't have access to pleasant, enjoyable exercise you tend to do so less than the people who do have access to woods, green fields, country clubs with tennis and golf, convenient bike lanes, etc.
Or do you think that rich people are forced to exercise, but poor people aren't?!

Where I live, one way to make people exercise more is to make it attractive to get on your bike. Nobody forces us to ride a bicycle, but the bike ride as an alternative to the car or the subway appeals to us because it has been made appealing (and very often faster) than cars and public transport - for both rich and poor, by the way.

Quote:
COPENHAGEN — Soren Jensen sold his car six years ago and joined the rivers of rolling humanity who bicycle through Copenhagen every day. He quickly lost about 50 pounds on his hour-a-day bike commutes, while saving time and a small fortune.
“I had a Mercedes but it sat in the garage all the time because it was so much easier to get everywhere by bike,” said Jensen, a 51-year-old who works in a downtown investment bank. He got rid of the car, which was costing him about $500 a month, after moving from the suburbs to the city and finding that he didn’t need it anymore.
“I don’t miss it at all,” the 6-foot-7 Jensen added before setting off on the ride home on a warm summer evening. He said he’d been looking forward to it all afternoon. “The hour on the bike is time I don’t have to spend in a gym. I got healthier and look forward every day to all that fresh air. Life’s good.”
Copenhagen has taken bicycle commuting to a whole new level (LA Times, Aug 8, 2019)

See?! Nobody is forcing him. And nobody is forcing me. And yet I weigh approximately the same as I did 40 years ago.
And then there's the carbon footpring, which some people claim is the reason why they do it. I don't. I do it because it's faster and more convenient.
And I eat healthy food because it tastes better and is easily available. To many people, it isn't.

ETA:
It is not as if we don't have obesity. We do. But we are at the low end (#111; USA #12) of industrialized (and in particular: industrialized Western) countries:
List of countries by obesity rates (Wikipedia)

ETA:
We don't have any real automotive industry, i.e. we don't have lobbyists paying politicians to make it unappealing to ride bikes to and from work! On the contrary, the state finds it advantageous to pay for bike lanes and even bike bridges. They are much cheaper than the ones for cars, and they contribute to making it faster and more convenient to ride bikes.
You never get stuck in traffic on a bicycle. In rush-hour traffic, you almost always do if you are in a car or even on a motorcycle.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 5th October 2021 at 04:54 AM.
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