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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 20th September 2019, 11:26 AM   #81
The Atheist
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Ah, that old chestnut again.

Methinks she confuses biology with psychology.

The physics is a piece of cake:

Calories consumed - calories burned + weight loss or gain.

Everything else is a cop-out.

Low metabolism? Don't eat so much.
Hungry? Have a glass of cold water.
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Old 20th September 2019, 12:38 PM   #82
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Might as well slip this one in here:

NEW MAJOR STUDY: A CALORIE IS NOT A CALORIE ( ... yes I know, a calorie really is always a calorie )

Quote:
A new study from Harvard shows that individuals following a low-carbohydrate (20% of total calories) diet burn between 209 and 278 more calories per day than those on a high-carbohydrate (60% of total calories) diet. So the type of calories we eat really does matter.
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:03 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I offer the following rebuttals

My ex:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:07 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Ah, that old chestnut again.
Methinks she confuses biology with psychology.
The physics is a piece of cake:
Calories consumed - calories burned + weight loss or gain.
Everything else is a cop-out.
Low metabolism? Don't eat so much.
Hungry? Have a glass of cold water.

You obviously "don't understand how biologically complex the condition of being overweight is - the interaction between genes, the bacteria in your gut, your metabolism, appetite and diet, and a number of other factors."
You don't even notice that psychology isn't mentioned at all.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th September 2019, 01:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You don't even notice that psychology isn't mentioned at all.
More reading comprehension fail - I know psychology wasn't mentioned,which is why I was pointing out that it should be.

The biology is irrelevant, because it can be adjusted for with the simplest mathematics.

The bottom line is always whether someone chooses to eat or not.

Fat ***** choose to eat.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:21 PM   #86
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The Global Obesity Epidemic

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
More reading comprehension fail - I know psychology wasn't mentioned,which is why I was pointing out that it should be.



The biology is irrelevant, because it can be adjusted for with the simplest mathematics.



The bottom line is always whether someone chooses to eat or not.



Fat ***** choose to eat.


If only it were that simple. Don’t get me wrong. I know I’m overweight because I eat more than I should. Your comments apply to me quite well. That said, I’ve known a variety of people who watched their calories with psychotic obsession. A few examples:

I dated an anorexic with a BMI in the “obese” range. She was hospitalized a few times for malnutrition. She’d been at it for years yet was still overweight.

Back when I was rock climbing three times a week I occasionally climbed with a woman who was there every damn day. She went up 30 foot rock walls a dozen times a day, had a personal trainer, and was still what the BMI scale considered overweight.

I know a woman whose BMI keeps her in the “morbidly obese” range because of her breasts. She’s athletic, thin, has a tiny ass, and breasts that enter the room two minutes before she does unless she’s sprinting.

I could go on. Yes, many people are overweight because they eat and drink too much. Dismissing ALL overweight people as simply overeating is just plain dumb.
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Old 20th September 2019, 03:32 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Dismissing ALL overweight people as simply overeating is just plain dumb.
I repeat: calories consumed - calories burned = weight gain or loss.

If you wish to challenge that, please go ahead, because the laws of physics haven't been changed for a few centuries, so maybe it's time to change them.

Also, BMI is irrelevant.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:26 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I repeat: calories consumed - calories burned = weight gain or loss.



If you wish to challenge that, please go ahead, because the laws of physics haven't been changed for a few centuries, so maybe it's time to change them.



Also, BMI is irrelevant.

Nobody is claiming that the laws of physics have changed. If you’re not going to engage in this discussion with integrity I might as well get into a Twitter argument about politics.
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Old 20th September 2019, 05:38 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Nobody is claiming that the laws of physics have changed.
Then the facts are clear - the only way to be fat is to eat more than one needs. That's not what you were saying earlier:

"Dismissing ALL overweight people as simply overeating is just plain dumb."


Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
If you’re not going to engage in this discussion with integrity ...
In the context of this thread, that's very ironically funny.

Yes, there are all sorts of reasons why people overeat, and all of them are psychological. Whether someone's metabolism or gut microbioeme makes them more likely to become obese is utterly irrelevant. Lots of people face challenges, and most of them overcome them.

Fat people want a free pass.

Boo Hoo.
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Old 20th September 2019, 06:07 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Then the facts are clear - the only way to be fat is to eat more than one needs. That's not what you were saying earlier:



"Dismissing ALL overweight people as simply overeating is just plain dumb."









In the context of this thread, that's very ironically funny.



Yes, there are all sorts of reasons why people overeat, and all of them are psychological. Whether someone's metabolism or gut microbioeme makes them more likely to become obese is utterly irrelevant. Lots of people face challenges, and most of them overcome them.



Fat people want a free pass.



Boo Hoo.


So according to you hypothyroidism, polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) and sleep apnea are all just willpower issues.

Fascinating.
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Old 20th September 2019, 08:48 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
However, can we continue to ignore the source of the calories, as these diseases continue to rise in spite of the diet and exercise guidelines being recommended by the mainstream medical community for the last 50 or so years?
Absolutely - unless those guidelines are being followed. What makes you think they are?
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:51 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
More reading comprehension fail - I know psychology wasn't mentioned,which is why I was pointing out that it should be.
The biology is irrelevant, because it can be adjusted for with the simplest mathematics.
The bottom line is always whether someone chooses to eat or not.
Fat ***** choose to eat.

You can't stop the groove
'Cos you just won't move
It's a shame shame shame
Shame shame shame
Shame shame on you
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Old 21st September 2019, 12:24 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
So according to you hypothyroidism, polycystic ovarian syndrome (PCOS) and sleep apnea are all just willpower issues.

Fascinating.
Nope - but good way to display exactly what I've been saying.

All of those issues (and sleep apnoea is more likely a symptom of fatness than cause) do not change the basic facts that more calories must be consumed than used. Those people face more challenges than others, but so do paraplegics, and there are plenty of them who aren't obese.

I do enjoy the attempts to justify obesity by focusing on obscure examples. Hypothyroidism occurs in less than 0.5% of people.

40% of Americans are obese.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nope - but good way to display exactly what I've been saying.

All of those issues (and sleep apnoea is more likely a symptom of fatness than cause) do not change the basic facts that more calories must be consumed than used. Those people face more challenges than others, but so do paraplegics, and there are plenty of them who aren't obese.

I do enjoy the attempts to justify obesity by focusing on obscure examples. Hypothyroidism occurs in less than 0.5% of people.

40% of Americans are obese.
As are 34% of New Zealanders. Your point?
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:00 PM   #95
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I've heard that many Pacific island natives are obese, or at least are susceptible to obesity.
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:07 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As are 34% of New Zealanders. Your point?
My understanding was that hypothyroidism was being offered as a cause of obesity and The Atheist was pointing out that it was present in a very small subset of the people who are obese in the USA.

Your point?
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:09 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I've heard that many Pacific island natives are obese, or at least are susceptible to obesity.
No big mystery..

How paradise became the fattest place in the world

Quote:
The epidemic began through the tropical region turning its back on traditional diets of fresh fish and vegetables and replacing them with highly processed and energy-dense food such as white rice, flour, canned foods, processed meats and soft drinks imported from other countries. One of the root causes of the change is the price tag.
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
My understanding was that hypothyroidism was being offered as a cause of obesity and The Atheist was pointing out that it was present in a very small subset of the people who are obese in the USA.

Your point?
This:

I understood his point about hyperthyroidism. It is a valid point. The add on last sentence re % in the USA seems to have nothing to do with that. You may recall that the thread title states global obesity epidemic.

ETA I am embarrassed. This seems to be one of those days when I should not be posting. Apologies to The Atheist for completely misunderstanding his post. It was completely consistent. I retract my comments.
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:22 PM   #99
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Convenient numbers to rebuke the hyperthyroidism gambit..
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
As are 34% of New Zealanders. Your point?
Certainly are, however:

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
I've heard that many Pacific island natives are obese, or at least are susceptible to obesity.
Not just in the Islands, either. Far more Pasiifika people live in NZ than the islands, and their obesity rate is astronomical.

At 65% NZ Pasifika obesity, plus 45% Maori obesity, the rate for other NZ residents isn't that bad.

https://www.health.govt.nz/nz-health...ity-statistics

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Ninja'd.

I was about to explain exactly that point - that it's all been caused by NZ & Aussie seeing a great market for cheap cuts that would otherwise be turned into fertiliser.

There's probably some poetic justice that we pick up the finance tab for the health issues it causes.

The money-go-round.
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:45 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Certainly are, however:



Not just in the Islands, either. Far more Pasiifika people live in NZ than the islands, and their obesity rate is astronomical.

At 65% NZ Pasifika obesity, plus 45% Maori obesity, the rate for other NZ residents isn't that bad.

https://www.health.govt.nz/nz-health...ity-statistics



Ninja'd.

I was about to explain exactly that point - that it's all been caused by NZ & Aussie seeing a great market for cheap cuts that would otherwise be turned into fertiliser.

There's probably some poetic justice that we pick up the finance tab for the health issues it causes.

The money-go-round.
All understood. I have no issue. See my edit above.
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:52 PM   #102
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There is a so-so documentary about the benefits of switching to a low-carb, high ( healthy ) fat diet, that includes a group of Australian Aborigines.. ( Note: The diet did not include Australian Aborigines as an entree.. )

The Magic Pill
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:01 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
There is a so-so documentary about the benefits of switching to a low-carb, high ( healthy ) fat diet, that includes a group of Australian Aborigines.. ( Note: The diet did not include Australian Aborigines as an entree.. )
Pity about the doco, because the science appears to be coming solidly in on it.

There's a group of GPs over here who have started making news about the superior results they've been achieving with obese patients.

It'll catch on with any luck.
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:15 PM   #104
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Have you heard about South African Physician Tim Noakes

The Silencing of Tim Noakes

Quote:
...A few months later, the HPCSA, which governs the medical professions in South Africa, charged Noakes with violating medical ethics by giving allegedly unconventional professional advice on Twitter, an act it labeled “disgraceful conduct.”
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Old 21st September 2019, 11:22 PM   #105
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Glad you're skeptical of The Magic Pill. Avoid anything with Pete Evans to prolong your life.

I know of Noakes and Ludwig, Lustig, Taubes and the other LCHF/Keto white patriarchy.

They're ridiculed quite a bit in Science Twitter.

They have done a fair few studies, but they also distort those studies.

The debate on Joe Rogan between Gary Taubes and Stephan Guyenet was rather good.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 01:23 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Yes, there are all sorts of reasons why people overeat, and all of them are psychological. Fat people want a free pass.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I was about to explain exactly that point - that it's all been caused by NZ & Aussie seeing a great market for cheap cuts that would otherwise be turned into fertiliser.
This seems like a contradiction to me. It's all fat people's fault, but it's the fault of companies pushing processed food. That's an environmental issue, not a psychological one.

So - could the problem be a bit of both?

I read an article about a study that showed that people today are getting fatter despite evidence that people in the '70s with comparable diets and exercise habits were much thinner. If I find it I'll post a link. It was quite recent and I don't remember that a cause was ever determined but it might have something to do with bacteria or the lack of it in people's guts.

Also, remember that once you're overweight, you can eat very moderately yet still remain obese. And, that crash diets may leave you with less muscle and more metabolically inert mass (fat). Thousands of years of evolution has left us with strong tendencies to eat when food is available. Now for many of us it's available all the time. With no evolutionary "off" switch you're fighting your body's instinct to keep shoveling it in while you can. It once served us well, now not so much at least in modern, developed countries.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 06:15 AM   #107
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Quote:
It's all fat people's fault, but it's the fault of companies pushing processed food.
It's ultimately fat people's choice...
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:08 AM   #108
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Not if they can't afford healthy food and living conditions, for instance.
You obviously don't understand how biologically complex the condition of being overweight is - the interaction between genes, the bacteria in your gut, your metabolism, appetite and diet, and a number of other factors.
To turn it into "ultimately fat people's choice" only serves the purpose of fat shaming.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:10 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You may recall that the thread title states global obesity epidemic.

Some good lists and interactive maps:

Most obese countries (World Population Review)
List of countries by BMI (Wikipedia)
Graphics (World Obesity Data)
Prevalence of overweight among adults, ages 18+, 1975-2016 (age standardized estimate): Both sexes, 2016 (WHO)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:53 AM   #110
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How different groups respond to the same diet:

Quote:
* Advice to eat less and exercise more seems reasonable, but it has not been effective in reversing the obesity epidemic.
* The struggle to find the best diet for weight management has largely failed.
* Weight loss varies between individuals following a healthy diet.
It seems as if no one diet fits all and that we should look for the differences between individuals that might optimize the personalized dietary approach.
* Such differences between individuals (biomarkers) could involve both genotypes and phenotypes.
Mads Hjorth: Personalized dietary management of obesity based on microbial enterotypes (June 8, 2019)

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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:55 AM   #111
Skeptical Greg
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not if they can't afford healthy food and living conditions, for instance.
You obviously don't understand how biologically complex the condition of being overweight is - the interaction between genes, the bacteria in your gut, your metabolism, appetite and diet, and a number of other factors.
To turn it into "ultimately fat people's choice" only serves the purpose of fat shaming.
You are just limiting their choices. What can we do to improve that?

Turning it into a fat shaming issue is just avoiding the real issue, and derailing this thread.


All you have to do is read my comments on nutrition to know I understand this a lot more than you think.. I am also a formerly obese person, who knows how I got that way.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 06:13 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
This seems like a contradiction to me. It's all fat people's fault, but it's the fault of companies pushing processed food. That's an environmental issue, not a psychological one.

So - could the problem be a bit of both?
I give Pasifika people a bit of a free pass, because they evolved to survive with very low metabolism thanks to a fish-based diet.

When NZ & Aus started pushing cheap food on them, it seemed like a simple answer for them: more free time.

Hasn't worked out so well.
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Old 12th October 2019, 06:40 PM   #113
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Getting back to this thread, there's this:

https://bodyforwife.com/what-is-the-...on-to-obesity/

I'm not posting the summary.

Obesity, its causes, and solutions are not a soundbite or two.

Instead, I'll post my additional comments.

We've evolved to what we are today because of improvements in efficiency.

We are so efficient now at producing food, we waste 30% of it globally.

It's so easy to feed ourselves, we need to go against our genetics and do things with the sole purpose of removing excess food stores.

Biologically, we want to do things the quickest, simplest way.

Hence fad diets, extreme diets.

Hence arguments about the one cause or cure of obesity.

As Nobel Prize winner, economist and psychologist Daniel Kahnemann's many studies show, the very act of thinking hard in itself depletes us of energy.

We want a quick fix, like our quick reactions in simply running from bears or hunting them.

Our bodies including the brain organ don't like expending energy we will then have to replenish.

In the 12,000 years since we started farming, we have grown taller, and are now living longer, becoming more obese, but it's not obvious we have evolved in such a short time.

Instead, though, our knowledge has grown.

It's up to us to use the collective knowledge of our tribe to help each other make learning easier, buying the right food easier, and to help make regulating our weight easier to do and understand.

It's up to us to stop insisting on extremist, over-simplified, and/or fad approaches that we can't sustain long enough to make all the required changes.
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Old 13th October 2019, 08:57 AM   #114
dann
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We are so efficient now at producing food, we waste 30% of it globally.

Nowadays, machines chop up bones, sinews and intestines to make them edible for humans or animals or to use them as fertilizer. I guess that our ancestors wasted much more than 30%, i.e. let other creatures eat the rest, i.e. let nature 'recycle' the parts of their prey that they didn't consume themselves.

Quote:
Biologically, we want to do things the quickest, simplest way.

No, not always. When we are full, we sometimes do things in slow (or fast) and very complicated ways for entertainment. Even birds and mammals play.

Quote:
Our bodies including the brain organ don't like expending energy we will then have to replenish.

How do you explain surfing, dancing and chess? Many of us actually enjoy expending energy with "our bodies including the brain organ." But a lot of those things aren't free. Some neighborhoods make you want to take a stroll through the park or by the beach. Others don't. You usually find those where poor people live. (And healthy as well as tasty food tends to be more expensive than the sugary trans-fatty foods you find in all supermarkets.)
Obesity and poverty paradox in developed countries. (PubMed, 2014)
Obesity: Economic impact (Wikipedia)
Quote:
Although obesity has increased across all racial and ethnic groups, it affects some groups more than others. Black (50 percent) and Hispanic women (45 percent) have the highest adult obesity rates. Among children, Black adolescent girls (29 percent) and Mexican-American adolescent boys (27 percent) are most affected
The nation’s childhood obesity epidemic: Health disparities in the making (American Psychological Association, 2012)

Quote:
In the 12,000 years since we started farming, we have grown taller, and are now living longer, becoming more obese, but it's not obvious we have evolved in such a short time.

It didn't take 'us' 12,000 years to become obese! It took only a fraction of that time:
Quote:
We have not always been a nation in the midst of an obesity epidemic. In the 1960s and 1970s only 13 percent of U.S. adults and 5 to 7 percent of U.S. children were obese. Today, 17 percent of our children, 32 percent of adult males, and 36 percent of adult females are obese.
The nation’s childhood obesity epidemic: Health disparities in the making (American Psychological Association, 2012)

Quote:
It's up to us to use the collective knowledge of our tribe to help each other make learning easier, buying the right food easier, and to help make regulating our weight easier to do and understand.
It's up to us to stop insisting on extremist, over-simplified, and/or fad approaches that we can't sustain long enough to make all the required changes.

'We' aren't really the ones who decide how "to use the collective knowledge of our tribe," and it is very important to most societies to exclude a vast number of people from the "collective knowledge." And the ones who are excluded most efficiently are much more likely to be(come) obese:
Quote:
Existing evidence provides a strong suggestion that such an epidemic has affected certain social groups more than others. In particular, a better education appears to be associated with a lower likelihood of obesity, especially among women.
Exploring the Relationship Between Education and Obesity (OECD Journal: Economic Studies, 2011)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th October 2019, 05:04 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Not if they can't afford healthy food and living conditions, for instance.
You obviously don't understand how biologically complex the condition of being overweight is - the interaction between genes, the bacteria in your gut, your metabolism, appetite and diet, and a number of other factors.
To turn it into "ultimately fat people's choice" only serves the purpose of fat shaming.

Just look at all the starving fat poor people in Africa.

People in the US are lazy and coddled. I'm pretty poor and I don't waste my money on Slurpees and Ho-Ho's. Being poor is a great way to eat better. A box of cookies is a hell of a lot more expensive than fresh veggies.

It's about priorities. What do you need more, a $1,000 phone, HBO, or better food? Weed, beer, eating at McD's? The good cheap food is there if people want to buy it.

I went to a side-show once at a carnival. There was a "fat lady" on display. My friend's Mom talked to her for awhile.

You don't need to go to the circus anymore to see this. I see bigger people walking around every day.
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Old 13th October 2019, 05:36 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
JBeing poor is a great way to eat better. A box of cookies is a hell of a lot more expensive than fresh veggies.
Here in Nashville, we have an urban area comprising several square miles within which there is no source of fresh food, barring that available in some convenience stores. There is no way most of the inhabitants of that area to have a diet that is not composed of mostly fast and/or prepackaged food.

What you are saying is not incorrect, but there are factors in play other than expense.
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Old 13th October 2019, 08:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
A box of cookies is a hell of a lot more expensive than fresh veggies.

Not calorie for calorie. The cookies are much cheaper per calorie.

You can get a 12-16oz package of cookies for a dollar at a dollar store. That's 1500 kcals or more. You can't buy an apple there. At a bodega or convenience store, an apple (100 kcals) is at least a dollar.

So, can the poor afford to pay 15 times more per calorie? An overweight individual might benefit a lot from buying fewer higher-quality food calories. But what about people feeding families?
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Old 13th October 2019, 10:33 PM   #118
dann
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Being poor is a great way to eat better. A box of cookies is a hell of a lot more expensive than fresh veggies.

It's about priorities. What do you need more, a $1,000 phone, HBO, or better food? Weed, beer, eating at McD's? The good cheap food is there if people want to buy it.

You don't even see the contradiction, do you?
On the one hand, poor people get fat because they waste their money on expensive gadgets so they can't afford to buy healthy food, but on the other hand, healthy food is supposed to be much cheaper than unhealthy fattening foods so you would expect them to be unable to buy anything other than "fresh veggies" after having spent most of their money on iPhones and weed.
I bet they also can't afford to live in gated communities that offer "activities, events and fun gathering spaces" because they waste their money on beer and flat-screen TVs ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th October 2019, 11:31 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Nowadays, machines chop up bones, sinews and intestines to make them edible for humans or animals or to use them as fertilizer. I guess that our ancestors wasted much more than 30%, i.e. let other creatures eat the rest, i.e. let nature 'recycle' the parts of their prey that they didn't consume themselves.




No, not always. When we are full, we sometimes do things in slow (or fast) and very complicated ways for entertainment. Even birds and mammals play.




How do you explain surfing, dancing and chess? Many of us actually enjoy expending energy with "our bodies including the brain organ." But a lot of those things aren't free. Some neighborhoods make you want to take a stroll through the park or by the beach. Others don't. You usually find those where poor people live. (And healthy as well as tasty food tends to be more expensive than the sugary trans-fatty foods you find in all supermarkets.)
Obesity and poverty paradox in developed countries. (PubMed, 2014)
Obesity: Economic impact (Wikipedia)






It didn't take 'us' 12,000 years to become obese! It took only a fraction of that time:






'We' aren't really the ones who decide how "to use the collective knowledge of our tribe," and it is very important to most societies to exclude a vast number of people from the "collective knowledge." And the ones who are excluded most efficiently are much more likely to be(come) obese:
I wasn't arguing with you or against any of that. I know all that, and agree.

I don't know who is arguing with whom in this thread.

I didn't want to become biased towards or against any participants.

Did you think I was blaming fat people?

Did you read the link from James Fell?


"We" are the majority of the US and Australia populations, who are overweight - who need to drive to a fitness centre and usually quit after the first month of membership, or who sit in front of screens for work and for recreation.

The people who mean that malnutrition due to obesity is a bigger problem in the world than malnutrition due to famine.

Me, I fell in love with running 4 years ago. I'm using a sympathetic "we", even thought "fat shaming" thoughts sometimes pop up uninvited in my mind when I see overweight people.

Anything in my previous post you agree with?

I'd check out my other post from last night if you think I'm unsympathetic in any way towards Level 4 nations.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12854255

This is not just about obesity. It's also about climate change, war, inequality. All of this and more.
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Old 14th October 2019, 08:24 AM   #120
dann
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I wasn't arguing with you or against any of that. I know all that, and agree.
I don't know who is arguing with whom in this thread.
I didn't want to become biased towards or against any participants.
Did you think I was blaming fat people?
Did you read the link from James Fell?

I didn't think that you were arguing with me about this or that you were biased against fat people. And I did read the article in your link. I'll get back to that.

Quote:
"We" are the majority of the US and Australia populations, who are overweight - who need to drive to a fitness centre and usually quit after the first month of membership, or who sit in front of screens for work and for recreation.

I notice primarily that the world has been organized in a way that makes it necessary for people to compensate in their spare time for the kind of sedentary work that they have to perform + the sedentary transport to and from on top of that. The spare time that they have left isn't much so it's hard to blame them for not wanting to spend it on the activities that are necessary for them to stay fit ... for what, exactly? It ought to be for life, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that what they are staying fit for (if at all) is work.

Quote:
The people who mean that malnutrition due to obesity is a bigger problem in the world than malnutrition due to famine.

I am not sure that you are right about that. In many parts of the world, going hungry is still a thing: World hunger is still not going down after three years and obesity is still growing – UN report - More than 820 million people are hungry globally (WHO, July 15, 2019)
And to some extent (we agree that there is more than one cause), obesity is due to the modern kind of malnutrition, not the other way 'round.

Quote:
Me, I fell in love with running 4 years ago. I'm using a sympathetic "we", even thought "fat shaming" thoughts sometimes pop up uninvited in my mind when I see overweight people.

Pop culture contains a lot of entertainment and jokes on fat people's expense, so it's easy to slip into the fat-people-are-lazy-slobs way of thinking, cf. Bill Maher versus James Corben:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Quote:
Anything in my previous post you agree with?
I'd check out my other post from last night if you think I'm unsympathetic in any way towards Level 4 nations.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...5#post12854255

I don't think that you are.

Quote:
This is not just about obesity. It's also about climate change, war, inequality. All of this and more.

Well, in this thread we focus on The Global Obesity Epidemic, and I hope that mgidm86's post makes it obvious with whom I really disagree!
When the conditions of work, transport and access to nutrition have created an epidemic of obesity, I find it idiotic to focus on the responsibility of individuals to make sure that they spend a considerable part of what little spare time and money they've got left on keeping themselves fit for work! A rational way of dealing with the problem would be to organize society in a way so that people work to live instead of living (and dieting and exercising) to work.
And I think that James Fell ignores that part of the problem.
In other words, class struggle and rallies against the present conditions are the kind of meaningful exercise that I would recommend!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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