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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 15th October 2019, 09:26 AM   #121
lomiller
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post


This seems like a contradiction to me. It's all fat people's fault, but it's the fault of companies pushing processed food. That's an environmental issue, not a psychological one.

So - could the problem be a bit of both?
Or perhaps a third possibility? One of the more interesting suggestions I’ve seen involves the inverse relationship between obesity and breastfeeding. Depending on the study rates of obesity in children that were exclusively breastfed can be half that of children that received significant amounts of formula. Children who were bottle fed have lower obesity rates than formula fed babies but higher than those fed directly from the breast.

The hypostasis goes that the chemical and philological pathways for deciding “I’ve eaten enough and it’s time to stop” are formed in the first year or so of life, and bottle feeding and formula disrupt this. If true this would mean it’s not a willpower problem, rather people should be stopping without having to make a conscious decision to do so, or use willpower to enforce that decision. Anecdotally obesity rates in adulthood do seem to track pretty well with popularity of formula and bottle-feeding when those adults were infants.
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Old 15th October 2019, 09:40 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
One thing I noticed in Hawaii (a huge melting pot from both sides of the Pacific Ocean) is how fat all the Americans seemed. Admittedly, many of the islanders were pretty hefty also, even more so.
racist body shaming.... egad
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Old 15th October 2019, 02:59 PM   #123
Skeptical Greg
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Or perhaps a third possibility? One of the more interesting suggestions I’ve seen involves the inverse relationship between obesity and breastfeeding. Depending on the study rates of obesity in children that were exclusively breastfed can be half that of children that received significant amounts of formula. Children who were bottle fed have lower obesity rates than formula fed babies but higher than those fed directly from the breast.

The hypostasis goes that the chemical and philological pathways for deciding “I’ve eaten enough and it’s time to stop” are formed in the first year or so of life, and bottle feeding and formula disrupt this. If true this would mean it’s not a willpower problem, rather people should be stopping without having to make a conscious decision to do so, or use willpower to enforce that decision. Anecdotally obesity rates in adulthood do seem to track pretty well with popularity of formula and bottle-feeding when those adults were infants.
Does being bottle fed increase the craving for high carb, processed foods and sugary drinks later in life, and what is the mechanism?


Does a decline in breast feeding actually track with the rise in obesit over the last 50 years?
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Old 15th October 2019, 04:09 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Not calorie for calorie. The cookies are much cheaper per calorie.

You can get a 12-16oz package of cookies for a dollar at a dollar store. That's 1500 kcals or more. You can't buy an apple there. At a bodega or convenience store, an apple (100 kcals) is at least a dollar.

So, can the poor afford to pay 15 times more per calorie? An overweight individual might benefit a lot from buying fewer higher-quality food calories. But what about people feeding families?

It's not just calories, it's all the crap that is in the cookies. Spending more money on an apple or bag of carrots than a box of garbage is still a better investment in your own body. People don't think that way apparently.

If you buy a box of cookies you are eating pretty much 100% crap. Eating an apple or handful of veggies is a much better value even if it costs more, which it does not.

There is no comparison between a box of cookies and fresh fruit.

Walmart:

Cookies: about $3.50 / 18 oz.
Apple (1): $0.59
Fresh carrots: $0.82 / pound

Which is the better investment? Even if you can buy that box of cookies for a dollar it's still more money and it is not at all good for you which makes it a much worse value.
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Old 15th October 2019, 04:52 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You don't even see the contradiction, do you?
On the one hand, poor people get fat because they waste their money on expensive gadgets so they can't afford to buy healthy food, but on the other hand, healthy food is supposed to be much cheaper than unhealthy fattening foods so you would expect them to be unable to buy anything other than "fresh veggies" after having spent most of their money on iPhones and weed.
I bet they also can't afford to live in gated communities that offer "activities, events and fun gathering spaces" because they waste their money on beer and flat-screen TVs ...

Hey I don't know why people won't buy proper food, but they obviously do not or we wouldn't have this "epidemic". I can't explain it because I don't live that way.

I'm not the one claiming that healthy food is so expensive either. They are the one's saying it's so expensive while they are on their expensive phones, not me. That is THEIR excuse and way of thinking, not mine. I can only guess their motivations and go by what I observe. They can afford it they just choose not to, and "expense" may be a convenient, though false, excuse.

I see people loading up the cart with Ruffles Chips ($5 a bag!) and soda, frozen food, loads and loads of crap. Don't ask me why - I can't afford to buy that junk and I don't. Same store has veggies and real food for sooo much cheaper.

They walk around the store with their already-fat toddlers teaching them these awful eating habits too, continuing the cycle. And they aren't all necessarily poor, at least that I can see. They still eat bad. People with money are fat too!

Most people in the US have access to proper food - that is not an excuse. There are Walmarts that sell veggies and food cheaper as I showed above. The same store where people load up on cakes and sweets also sell healthy cheap food.

Access to affordable food is not an issue in most places (in the USA). People wanting to eat crap is the problem. If you have to drive further to get food then make the drive worth it and load up.

For $10-12 I can crock-pot and freeze a dozen meals for myself in one shot. Pulled pork is cheap. Stew is if you cut your own meat. Soups. Forget the fattening meat and make veggie dishes even cheaper. The only thing in my freezer are foods I've made myself. No Hot Pockets, no Ice Cream or Pot Pies.

Being poor is not an excuse for being fat. See many obese homeless? Extreme example but there it is. Less calories = less fat.

It's about priorities and giving a damn for 99.9% of people. Everyone's a victim these days.

One more thing - being active is also a great way to stay healthy. I was at the park the other day and a little kid was driving around in a little tiny toy truck. But he wasn't pedaling it like I used to do. No this is battery controlled so his fat little legs don't need to exert themselves!

Sure, it's the world we live in...if you choose for it to be. It may take a little work to get the best food and learn about it, but what is more important than your own health?

Take control of your life or don't. I can't stand excuses like these.
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Old 15th October 2019, 09:47 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Walmart:

Cookies: about $3.50 / 18 oz.
Apple (1): $0.59
Fresh carrots: $0.82 / pound

Which is the better investment? Even if you can buy that box of cookies for a dollar it's still more money and it is not at all good for you which makes it a much worse value.
It looks like the carrots are pretty comparable even in the metric of calories/dollar to the cookies. But carrots aren't a calorie dense food as compared to, say, potatoes, which have about twice the number of calories/pound (as well as being cheaper/pound than carrots). Most people eat meals with not just low calorie foods like carrots, but also higher calorie dense foots like potatoes. Given that sort of a mixed diet, the $/calorie on average will be much less than for cookies.
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Old 15th October 2019, 11:42 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Hey I don't know why people won't buy proper food, but they obviously do not or we wouldn't have this "epidemic". I can't explain it because I don't live that way.

Of course, you know why they don't buy proper food. You tell us all the time. It's because they use all their money on expensive phones! And now you're telling us again:

Quote:
I'm not the one claiming that healthy food is so expensive either. They are the one's saying it's so expensive while they are on their expensive phones, not me.

Where exactly do they, not you, say "it's so expensive while they are on their expensive phones"?! All I can see is you saying that that's what they are saying on their expensive phones. I don't see them do it.

Quote:
That is THEIR excuse and way of thinking, not mine. I can only guess their motivations and go by what I observe. They can afford it they just choose not to, and "expense" may be a convenient, though false, excuse.

May be? Why do you think so? I don't believe that much of what you claim to observe is actually observations.

Quote:
I see people loading up the cart with Ruffles Chips ($5 a bag!) and soda, frozen food, loads and loads of crap. Don't ask me why - I can't afford to buy that junk and I don't. Same store has veggies and real food for sooo much cheaper.

I don't ask you why they do what you claim that they do. You are the one telling us why all the time while at the same time pretending that you are just observing. You see it, i.e. you paint a picture of what you want to see, and then you claim that cheap snacks are so expensive that you can't afford them. Why can't you afford them? Because you've spent all your money buying expensive gadgets or weed? I'm just asking. Unlike you, I'm not pretending to actually know why you can't.

Quote:
They walk around the store with their already-fat toddlers teaching them these awful eating habits too, continuing the cycle. And they aren't all necessarily poor, at least that I can see. They still eat bad. People with money are fat too!

What exactly is the alleged "cycle" that they are teaching their toddlers? Are you even sure that they, and not the TV commercials from manufacturers of unhealthy snacks, are the ones who teach them? This is a rather new phenomenon, percentage-wise, so you can't really claim that it's a kind of cycle handed down from generation to generation.
And if people with money are fat too, what is the point of claiming that people are fat because they buy expensive phones and therefore can't afford expensive food?

Quote:
Most people in the US have access to proper food - that is not an excuse. There are Walmarts that sell veggies and food cheaper as I showed above. The same store where people load up on cakes and sweets also sell healthy cheap food.

So their choice is to eat either the **** that they eat or potatoes and carrots? Or a carrot in between the cakes? That doesn't sound like an attractive alternative to me, but maybe it is for you.

Quote:
Access to affordable food is not an issue in most places (in the USA). People wanting to eat crap is the problem. If you have to drive further to get food then make the drive worth it and load up.
And once again you contradict yourself. You just told us: "Hey I don't know why people won't buy proper food," and now (again) you suddenly know exactly why they won't!
By the way, loading up to make the drive worth it, isn't what you do with carrots and potatoes and other perishable foods. It's what you do with the ****** stuff that manufacturers and sellers of food prefer, too. It's also the reason why they can't seem to get rid of the industry-produced trans fats that they are so fond of: They last longer!
We got rid of them here 16 years ago, and "it is hypothesized that the Danish government's efforts to decrease trans fat intake from 6 g to 1 g per day over 20 years is related to a 50% decrease in deaths from ischemic heart disease." But in the rest of the world, the arteries of consumers aren't clogged up because industry thinks it's easier that way, they are clogged up because fat parents are teaching their fat toddlers that industry's fatty acids are good for them, right?!
Get used to the FACT: Industry is killing people because industry is lazy and doesn't want to do the little extra effort that it takes to get rid of their trans fats! Trans fats are so convenient for industry. What consumers want has very little to do with it.
Have you seen many commercials lately for food products telling consumers that they are "chockfull of trans fats, the best that industry can buy!"?
Industry wants consumers to buy ****** foods, and it teaches consumers to do so.

Quote:
For $10-12 I can crock-pot and freeze a dozen meals for myself in one shot. Pulled pork is cheap. Stew is if you cut your own meat. Soups. Forget the fattening meat and make veggie dishes even cheaper. The only thing in my freezer are foods I've made myself. No Hot Pockets, no Ice Cream or Pot Pies.

Do you expect me to applaud you because you've got the time and the money to buy and cook healthy food? I'm criticizing you for pretending that everybody has this choice.

Quote:
Being poor is not an excuse for being fat. See many obese homeless? Extreme example but there it is. Less calories = less fat.
You don't remember what you wrote just two sentences ago, do you?!
Are you actually out there sharing your recipes with the homeless, telling them that they "can crock-pot and freeze a dozen meals for (themselves) in one shot"?! If you are, I would love to hear their response! Do you see many freezers in the cardboard boxes occupied by the homeless?

Quote:
It's about priorities and giving a damn for 99.9% of people. Everyone's a victim these days.

No, everyone isn't a victim. Apparently you are not. You are a victim blamer. But when industry is allowed to produce and use its own trans fats, everyone who buys products with that ingredient is a victim, but it hasn't got much to do with choice.

Quote:
One more thing - being active is also a great way to stay healthy. I was at the park the other day and a little kid was driving around in a little tiny toy truck. But he wasn't pedaling it like I used to do. No this is battery controlled so his fat little legs don't need to exert themselves!

I see nothing wrong with an electrical toy, and I bet that even children who don't have "fat (!) little legs" love them, too. I have talked with children here about them, and they aren't too fond of electric toy trucks because they're too slow. The ones they can pedal are much faster.
And this is how we do it in my corner of the world. Here, it's what children learn, too:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Quote:
Sure, it's the world we live in...if you choose for it to be. It may take a little work to get the best food and learn about it, but what is more important than your own health?

Is that a serious question? What is much more important are the things that you can do when you're healthy, apart from work. Otherwise, what's the point of health?! Just being smug about it and telling unhealthy people that they are to blame for their poor health?

Quote:
Take control of your life or don't. I can't stand excuses like these.

Take control of your life away from industry and the people who get wealthy by making your living conditions unhealthy and intolerable. I can't stand the excuses that allow rich people to ruin the lives and health of those less fortunate.
But that is what they choose to do, industry and its owners.
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Old 15th October 2019, 11:46 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It looks like the carrots are pretty comparable even in the metric of calories/dollar to the cookies. But carrots aren't a calorie dense food as compared to, say, potatoes, which have about twice the number of calories/pound (as well as being cheaper/pound than carrots). Most people eat meals with not just low calorie foods like carrots, but also higher calorie dense foots like potatoes. Given that sort of a mixed diet, the $/calorie on average will be much less than for cookies.

That sort of a mixed diet?! Carrots and potatoes? I think I'd rather die eating snacks and cookies, only around here you don't die as fast when you eat ****** food because it isn't full of trans fats.
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Old 16th October 2019, 02:26 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That sort of a mixed diet?! Carrots and potatoes? I think I'd rather die eating snacks and cookies, only around here you don't die as fast when you eat ****** food because it isn't full of trans fats.
I meant a mixed diet in the sense of not being only carrots or only potatoes, but of having a mix of foods like potatoes, carrots, other vegetables, other carbs, possibly meats, etc.

That's why i said:
"Most people eat meals with not just low calorie foods like carrots, but also higher calorie dense foods like potatoes."
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Old 16th October 2019, 03:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Hey I don't know why people won't buy proper food, but they obviously do not or we wouldn't have this "epidemic". I can't explain it because I don't live that way.

I'm not the one claiming that healthy food is so expensive either. They are the one's saying it's so expensive while they are on their expensive phones, not me. That is THEIR excuse and way of thinking, not mine. I can only guess their motivations and go by what I observe. They can afford it they just choose not to, and "expense" may be a convenient, though false, excuse.

I see people loading up the cart with Ruffles Chips ($5 a bag!) and soda, frozen food, loads and loads of crap. Don't ask me why - I can't afford to buy that junk and I don't. Same store has veggies and real food for sooo much cheaper.

They walk around the store with their already-fat toddlers teaching them these awful eating habits too, continuing the cycle. And they aren't all necessarily poor, at least that I can see. They still eat bad. People with money are fat too!

Most people in the US have access to proper food - that is not an excuse. There are Walmarts that sell veggies and food cheaper as I showed above. The same store where people load up on cakes and sweets also sell healthy cheap food.

Access to affordable food is not an issue in most places (in the USA). People wanting to eat crap is the problem. If you have to drive further to get food then make the drive worth it and load up.

For $10-12 I can crock-pot and freeze a dozen meals for myself in one shot. Pulled pork is cheap. Stew is if you cut your own meat. Soups. Forget the fattening meat and make veggie dishes even cheaper. The only thing in my freezer are foods I've made myself. No Hot Pockets, no Ice Cream or Pot Pies.

Being poor is not an excuse for being fat. See many obese homeless? Extreme example but there it is. Less calories = less fat.

It's about priorities and giving a damn for 99.9% of people. Everyone's a victim these days.

One more thing - being active is also a great way to stay healthy. I was at the park the other day and a little kid was driving around in a little tiny toy truck. But he wasn't pedaling it like I used to do. No this is battery controlled so his fat little legs don't need to exert themselves!

Sure, it's the world we live in...if you choose for it to be. It may take a little work to get the best food and learn about it, but what is more important than your own health?

Take control of your life or don't. I can't stand excuses like these.

While you might take some flack for these statements, I for one am very impressed by this. It's admirable that you have the organization and energy to prepare economical healthy food, while also working three part-time jobs to make ends meet and raising young children at the same time, and still manage to drive out to the suburban centers where Walmarts are located from the city neighborhood where you live in order to economically shop for carrots and potatoes and pork. Nice job!
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Old 16th October 2019, 06:32 AM   #131
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WRT "fat shaming", I wonder if any research has been done to examine wether fat shaming actually curbs obesity that also attempts to quantify the number of people who are not currently obese because they wished to avoid being fat shamed..

Currently, it seems like the focus is on those who are currently obese- which seems like self selection for failure, i.,e, "we have found that fat shaming has been %100 ineffective in reducing obesity in the sample of people for whom fat shaming is %100 ineffective".

Has there been some kind of control that attempts to answer the question of how many people that are not obese would be if they were not averse to being fat shamed?
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:45 PM   #132
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Obviously fat shaming doesn't work because more and more people are becoming obese.

Who is going to do the fat shaming when an overwhelming majority are obese?

A big problem is that when being overweight is the new norm, you have few people in a position of authority to point out that the obesity epidemic is such a threat to the over all welfare of the community.

Overweight child welfare workers are hardly going to be calling out parents for letting their kids get fat..

Not to mention healthcare providers..
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Old 16th October 2019, 01:54 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
WRT "fat shaming", I wonder if any research has been done to examine wether fat shaming actually curbs obesity that also attempts to quantify the number of people who are not currently obese because they wished to avoid being fat shamed..
It's an interesting question, but I don't know how you study it. You could only ever do observational studies, you could never do a controlled study because that would never get past an Institutional Review Board. And I don't know if you could separate out fat shaming from other factors in a purely observational study.
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Old 17th October 2019, 07:25 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
While you might take some flack for these statements, I for one am very impressed by this. It's admirable that you have the organization and energy to prepare economical healthy food, while also working three part-time jobs to make ends meet and raising young children at the same time, and still manage to drive out to the suburban centers where Walmarts are located from the city neighborhood where you live in order to economically shop for carrots and potatoes and pork. Nice job!
Walmart may be a more economical place to buy produce than convenience stores, but even in inner cities there is usually a grocery store (not a trendy and high priced place like whole foods, either) within a short drive or bike ride.

I can see how finding time to both cook and shop (and clean up afterward) can be more of a problem for someone working three jobs and raising young children. What percentage of the population is in that situation?
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Old 18th October 2019, 04:56 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Has there been some kind of control that attempts to answer the question of how many people that are not obese would be if they were not averse to being fat shamed?

How do you propose to do that? Divide children into three groups, fat-shame one, fat-praise the other, and somehow isolate the third from ever hearing about demeaning attitudes to obesity?!


ETA: I can see that Ziggurat was already there.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 18th October 2019, 05:24 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
How do you propose to do that? Divide children into three groups, fat-shame one, fat-praise the other, and somehow isolate the third from ever hearing about demeaning attitudes to obesity?!


ETA: I can see that Ziggurat was already there.
I was not making the proposal, I am not a researcher. I wondered if it had been attempted.

One might look at historical attitudes towards obesity, try to measure the societal tendency to "fat shame", and compare the prevalence of fat shaming with the obesity rate to see if there is a correlation between the prevalence of fat shaming attitudes and obesity rates.

Perhaps formerly obese individuals could be interviewed to attempt determine how big a factor their desire to avoid fat shaming played in their motivation to lose weight?

Maybe factors that are found to be prevalent in the environment of obese individuals could be isolated, then other individuals who experienced similar environments yet did not become obese could be examined to try to determine if their avoidance of obesity was driven by fat shaming, and if so to what extent?
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Old 18th October 2019, 05:26 AM   #137
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Obviously fat shaming doesn't work because more and more people are becoming obese.

Fans of fat shaming, like Bill Maher, will claim that fat people just haven't been shamed enough.

Quote:
Who is going to do the fat shaming when an overwhelming majority are obese?

The slim minority?! (By the way, the obese are still a minority.)

Quote:
A big problem is that when being overweight is the new norm, you have few people in a position of authority to point out that the obesity epidemic is such a threat to the over all welfare of the community.

Is it actually the new norm? I don't see how the obesity epidemic can be a "threat to the over all welfare of the community," but even if it were, I don't see why it would be problem to find "people in a position of authority to point out" that it were so. You seem to think of obesity as a kind of cult whose members are trying to promote the 'cause' and will only elect people who will help them do so.
You seem to forget that most obese people aren't obese because they want to be or find it desirable to be obese.

Quote:
Overweight child welfare workers are hardly going to be calling out parents for letting their kids get fat..

Not to mention healthcare providers.

Isn't this somewhat akin to the gay-recruiting myth? That the obese are a secret community that aspires to make everybody obese?!
I don't see why an obese wellfare workers or health-care providers wouldn't do their utmost to help prevent children from becoming obese.
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Old 18th October 2019, 05:35 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Perhaps formerly obese individuals could be interviewed to attempt determine how big a factor their desire to avoid fat shaming played in their motivation to lose weight?

You can go online and find out that some people blame fat shaming for contributing to their obesity (and low self-esteem), and others claim that it made them slim down.
As in the post above, I don't really see the point of this since the obese, apart from a very small minority of feeders 'n' eaters and sumo wrestlers in Japan), aren't trying to become obese. When you shame people, it's usually for behaviors that they themselves do deliberately.
In the case of involuntary obesity, you might as well blame people for growing old and bald.

Quote:
Maybe factors that are found to be prevalent in the environment of obese individuals could be isolated, then other individuals who experienced similar environments yet did not become obese could be examined to try to determine if their avoidance of obesity was driven by fat shaming, and if so to what extent?

Many such factors have been found: Q&A with FENS 2019 plenary speaker, Professor Arne Astrup (Feb. 8, 2019)
Poverty and lack of education, however, are probably the two most important factors when you look beyond biology. But a scientific approach to obesity probably wouldn't (and shouldn't!) pay too much attention to people who are only interested in justifying their attitude. They enjoy fat shaming and would like to see science justify this attitude.
It has nothing to do with scientific curiosity or a desire to help anybody.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 18th October 2019, 05:50 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You can go online and find out that some people blame fat shaming for contributing to their obesity (and low self-esteem), and others claim that it made them slim down.
As in the post above, I don't really see the point of this since the obese, apart from a very small minority of feeders 'n' eaters and sumo wrestlers in Japan), aren't trying to become obese. When you shame people, it's usually for behaviors that they themselves do deliberately.
In the case of involuntary obesity, you might as well blame people for growing old and bald.




Many such factors have been found: Q&A with FENS 2019 plenary speaker, Professor Arne Astrup (Feb. 8, 2019)
Poverty and lack of education, however, are probably the two most important factors when you look beyond biology. But a scientific approach to obesity probably wouldn't (and shouldn't!) pay too much attention to people who are only interested in justifying their attitude. They enjoy fat shaming and would like to see science justify this attitude.
It has nothing to do with scientific curiosity or a desire to help anybody.
What does "involuntary Obesity" mean?, and What percentage of obese individuals would you describe as being "involuntarily" obese?

Is fat shaming similar to "smoke shaming"?
It seems we have no compunction as a society with "shaming" smokers, and attempting to make it more and more difficult to engage in that lifestyle even though we recognize that stopping that behavior is particularly difficult.
Are smokers "involuntary smokers"?
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Old 18th October 2019, 06:09 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
One might look at historical attitudes towards obesity, try to measure the societal tendency to "fat shame", and compare the prevalence of fat shaming with the obesity rate to see if there is a correlation between the prevalence of fat shaming attitudes and obesity rates.
I don't know how you could do that without the data being swamped by larger effects like different available food and different physical activity levels associated with work/transportation. There are so many potentially confounding variables that I doubt you could separate out something like fat shaming.
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Old 18th October 2019, 06:17 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't know how you could do that without the data being swamped by larger effects like different available food and different physical activity levels associated with work/transportation. There are so many potentially confounding variables that I doubt you could separate out something like fat shaming.
Perhaps.
Perhaps different cultures within the same time period could be compared instead.
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Old 18th October 2019, 07:05 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Perhaps.
Perhaps different cultures within the same time period could be compared instead.
Different cultures within the same time period had different availability of food. And the data on something like obesity rates for anything other than very recent times isn't going to be very accurate to begin with.
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Old 18th October 2019, 08:09 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Different cultures within the same time period had different availability of food. And the data on something like obesity rates for anything other than very recent times isn't going to be very accurate to begin with.
How much does that matter?
The idea is to determine what role fat shaming might have played in individuals who are not obese in a culture where becoming obese is easy to do.
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Old 18th October 2019, 09:20 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
What does "involuntary Obesity" mean?, and What percentage of obese individuals would you describe as being "involuntarily" obese?

It means that the vast majority of fat people don't choose to be fat and don't enjoy being fat.

Quote:
Is fat shaming similar to "smoke shaming"?

Only to the extent that it doesn't work at all. Banning smoking in most public rooms, however, affected smokers and made many of them stop. So does the alternative, vaping, apparently.

Quote:
It seems we have no compunction as a society with "shaming" smokers, and attempting to make it more and more difficult to engage in that lifestyle even though we recognize that stopping that behavior is particularly difficult.

We used to have no problems with the tobacco industry's obfuscation about the dangers of smoking or with its attempts to make smoking look cool, i.e. the opposite of shameful.
I don't think that "stopping that behavior is particularly difficult." Stopping any addiction is difficult. That's an important part of the definition, I think. I also don't think that 'we' are doing much to make the 'lifestyle' of smoking difficult. It has just been banned from places where smoking irritates and sometimes even harm other people. Photos of cancerous lungs on cigarettes don't make it difficult to smoke. They just remind smokers of the consequences to themselves.

Quote:
Are smokers "involuntary smokers"?
Not at first. But when they become addicted, you could argue that it's no longer entirely voluntary.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 18th October 2019, 09:35 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
How much does that matter?
The idea is to determine what role fat shaming might have played in individuals who are not obese in a culture where becoming obese is easy to do.
I get the idea, and like I said, it's an interesting question. But I don't think you can get good enough data to test it. There are too many potentially confounding variables you can't control for with a purely observational study, and it's not ethical to do a controlled experiment.
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Old 18th October 2019, 11:49 PM   #146
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UNICEF released a report this week, and most of the recent posts are people in here asking about things it's saying:

https://features.unicef.org/state-of...019-nutrition/

"Most forms of malnutrition across all parts of the world – from rural plots to city blocks – are rooted in poverty and inequity.
"Globally at least half of all children under five suffer from hidden hunger: a lack of essential nutrients that often goes unnoticed until it’s too late."

"Malnutrition e.g. from obesity, diet, hunger are why children's needs should be central to planetary food management.
"Women are 40% of the world’s formal labour force. Yet mothers remain responsible for most child feeding and care and often receive little support from families, employers or society at large, facing the impossible choice of feeding children well or earning a steady income. [...]
"even within households, these three forms of malnutrition – undernutrition, hidden hunger and overweight – co-exist."

"In the United States, childhood obesity is more common in families with lower education and income levels. In England, rates of childhood overweight and obesity are more than twice as high in the poorest areas. These areas also have five times more fast food restaurants than the most affluent areas. In many cases, healthy foods are more expensive than unhealthy options.

"But good nutrition can break the vicious cycle of poverty and malnutrition – in just one generation. With proper care and nutrition, children of malnourished parents can still grow to a healthy height. In order for that to happen, women and girls, especially adolescent mothers, need support and guidance on nutrition before pregnancy, both for their own well-being and to make sure their children get the nutrition they need in the crucial first 1,000 days of life.

"By contrast, there are numerous examples of how better nutrition is associated with improvements in children’s school performance. From China to Tanzania, from Guatemala to the United States, multiple studies have shown how better nutrition improved rates of school enrolment, attendance, and performance in areas like mathematics and reading.

"Good food and nutrition are not only the foundation of children’s health and the development of society at large, they are also a child’s basic human right."

- The State of the World's Children 2019
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:26 AM   #147
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I lost quite a lot of weight about 4 years ago and have kept it off.

I used to eat more highly-palatable, low-nutrient, high-calorie, foods which did not keep me satiated for long. Not fast food every meal, but a bit much dessert, larger portions, and usually meat with lunch and dinner, so I was taking in more kilojoules per day than I needed.

I've been learning daily about nutrition, kilojoule intake and expenditure, and much more, and have noticed that over time, the body transitioned to stop wanting those sorts of food.

I learned what foods were worth using those amounts of calories for.

Sometimes, cake is worth it. But mostly, it's just "empty calories" that don't fill your stomach up and you want more.

Sometimes, steak is a nice treat and a good source of nutrients you might need. But for many, it's a cut of red meat that you have used weekly when mince would be more egalitarian.

I learned to bulk up my plate with more veggies, which, as well as having essential nutrients, contain fibre to keep you full, keep your digestive tract in good condition, and create volume to increase satiation even more. And frozen veg can be cheap and just as good and more "fresh" than "fresh".





Online, and when dieting, some people act as if "healthy" means to punish yourself.

They can avoid "healthy" food altogether.

Or they can go on a "healthy" diet of kale and half a steamed chicken breast a day.

Then they both wonder why they don't like dieting.

When I was bigger, I used to wake up thinking, I'm going to try and lose weight today. Miss breakfast, tiny lunch, be starving by dinner and want all the tasty foods, alcohol, and dessert.

Wake up, feel crap, repeat.

I lost the weight during 2015-2016 by cutting back on overall energy intake, but not changing what I felt like having, including alcohol.

The alcohol use stopped in Feb 2018 when I wanted to try a new challenge, Feb Fast, and I found it was wonderful being able to eat those calories instead and feel super-good all day.

People want one quick solution, one quick diet trick.

Bodies and diets are all different and personal, and change over time. We all have to choose what we work on.

Keeping the weight off is just the same. Some days you eat more, some days less. Keeping an eye on overall weekly intake and/or the scale keeps you from having to make radical changes for a long time. Holidays and regular “diet breaks” are now recommended by leading dieticians and nutrition scientists, due to the need to maintain an optimal metabolism and mindset.
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Old 19th October 2019, 11:22 AM   #148
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You make a lot of great points Orphia..

I lost ~ 40 ponds over a period of 18 months about two years ago.

I quit eating processed foods and most of the ingredients that go into them, particularly refined grains and sugar.

I eat mostly single ingredient foods, with a bias toward meat, fish and eggs. I don't avoid fat that I consider healthy.

I don't count calories or macros. If 'meal time' rolls around, and I'm not hungry, I don't eat. I don't get a lot of exercise, and I think that curbs my appetite, along with having lost any craving for the calorie dense, nutritionally deficient foods I used to eat.

I think a lot of people, particularly adolescents, stay hungry and over eat because they eat a lot of those foods, and they are still nutritionally malnourished.


At 70, I feel better than I have in 30 years and have no health concerns.
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Old 19th October 2019, 12:26 PM   #149
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Child obesity has increased worldwide from 10% to 18% already this century.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...poor-countries

Obviously, whatever we've been doing to date isn't working.
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Old 20th October 2019, 07:56 AM   #150
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I don't think that's something we have been doing.
They have been trying to make kids eat and drink all kinds of unhealthy ****, and it appears to be working so well that they are getting rich by killing them. (Or making them kill themselves, if you will.)
Fast-food advertising has replaced the old Come-to-Marlboro-County ads:

Quote:
Jennifer Harris, director of marketing initiatives at the University of Connecticut’s Rudd Center for Food Policy & Obesity, and her team constantly publish papers on the correlation between fast food marketing and childhood obesity. Like Gearhardt, she thinks teenagers are especially vulnerable to junk food ads, more so than children 12 and under.
“Teenagers don’t have well-developed cognitive control mechanisms,” Harris told HuffPost. “Their frontal cortex doesn’t develop until the early 20s, so they’re very impulsive.”
How Fast Food Advertisements Get Under Your Skin, Whether You Realize It Or Not (HuffPost, March 3, 2019)

I was a teenager in the late '60s and early '70s, but in spite of hardly ever having a coke, their cinema advertising (in particular the sound of the bottle being opened and the fizz when it's poured into the glass) makes me positively crave one (but not enough to get me out of my seat ). When it has that effect on me, I'm not surprised by the effect that it has on teenage brains.


ETA: We all know the photos they put on packets of cigarettes nowadays. I have some suggestions for the photos that should be placed on boxes of junk food: Death by Morbid Obesity
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 20th October 2019, 11:39 AM   #151
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Along with your coke, don't forget the fresh popped popcorn with the buttery flavored/colored oil slathered all over it..
The buttery flavored industrial oil wouldn't have a clue about what a real butter molecule looks like if it tripped over one..

Yes, I can believe it's not butter..
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Old 20th October 2019, 01:02 PM   #152
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We don't add anything to popcorn around here. Even movie-theater popcorn appears to be nothing but corn and a bit of cooking oil. (Remember that we don't have artificial trans fats.) The last time I asked about the ingredients at a movie theatre, they claimed that they used peanut oil. No buttery sauces or similar stuff is added to the two basic ingredients - except salt, of course. So I guess that popcorn in Denmark is a pretty healthy snack - if you don't combine it with sugary soft drinks:

Quote:
Q: Popcorn is presented as both a healthy and unhealthy snack, depending on who you ask. Is it good for me?
A: You’re so right. Is popcorn healthy? The short answer is yes.
Popcorn is a whole-grain, fiber-rich food, so you digest the carbs slowly and steadily. It’s also very low in calories (especially for a snack food). More benefits: It contains free radical-fighting antioxidants and tryptophan, an amino acid important for sleep. (If you’re noshing while watching Netflix before bed, that’s a good thing.)
Is Popcorn Healthy? A Nutritionist Explains (Nutritious Life)
(I don't know if this website is a reliable source of information. All the sources I could find in Danish describe popcorn as a healthy snack: Eat Popcorn with a Good Conscience (TV2, March 26, 2012))
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:15 AM   #153
Orphia Nay
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
We don't add anything to popcorn around here. Even movie-theater popcorn appears to be nothing but corn and a bit of cooking oil. (Remember that we don't have artificial trans fats.) The last time I asked about the ingredients at a movie theatre, they claimed that they used peanut oil. No buttery sauces or similar stuff is added to the two basic ingredients - except salt, of course. So I guess that popcorn in Denmark is a pretty healthy snack - if you don't combine it with sugary soft drinks:



(I don't know if this website is a reliable source of information. All the sources I could find in Danish describe popcorn as a healthy snack: Eat Popcorn with a Good Conscience (TV2, March 26, 2012))
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronchiolitis_obliterans

Around 2012 there were stories hitting the media of "popcorn lung" in the USA.

"Bronchiolitis obliterans may be caused by inhalation of airborne diacetyl, a chemical used to produce the artificial butter flavoring[24] in many foods such as candy and microwave popcorn and occurring naturally in wines.

"This first came to public attention when eight former employees of the Gilster-Mary Lee popcorn plant in Jasper, Missouri developed bronchiolitis obliterans.

"On 16 January 2008, it was announced that Wayne Watson, a Denver man who developed "popcorn lung" after inhaling fumes from microwaved popcorn, was suing the Kroger grocery store chain and its affiliates. In the lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court, Watson's attorney claimed that the companies "failed to warn that preparing microwave popcorn in a microwave oven as intended and smelling the buttery aroma could expose the consumer to an inhalation hazard and a risk of lung injury."[31] On 19 September 2012 a jury in U.S. District Court in Denver awarded $2.3 million in actual damages and $5 million in punitive damages to Watson."
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Old 23rd October 2019, 10:44 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's an interesting question, but I don't know how you study it. You could only ever do observational studies, you could never do a controlled study because that would never get past an Institutional Review Board. And I don't know if you could separate out fat shaming from other factors in a purely observational study.
There's *lots* of studies that do exactly this, to the point where it's even broken down by demography (adult males, male vs female K-12 age, [LGBTQ]... )

It's a very studied subject, for obvious reasons - policymakers want to do something about obesity. Fat shaming is a national pastime. Is it working? Can we make it work better? &c.

We also have credible proxies such as public weighings, which are part of many K-12 school health programs, which have been introduced to random students in a single class, as an attempt to control for as many variables as possible.

The results show that public humiliation of the overweight has negative motivational results, and negative weight loss effects (specifically: causes more weight gain, reduces participation in physical activities, and increases depression and suicide rates).

The conflict, as pointed out by many posters, is that fat shaming is something some people want to do for their own reasons, but the data show's it causes the situation to worsen. The complication is that while advocates say it's about reducing weight, when confronted with the data, they persist anyway, and that reveals to me that it's not about the patients, it seems to be more about the shamer's personal entertainment/gratification.



The other one that policymakers keep trying - but is proven not to work - is activity. '[Normal]' increased activity levels (eg: [giving kids ten times as much physed]) just don't seem to have any effect on obesity rates. We are more active than our previous three or four generations of ancestors; obesity is a product of gradual calorie intake increases over that timeframe, which has various causes that need to be addressed in their own ways.


(My background
25 years as a personal fitness trainer.
I was unusual in my personal fitness training career in that I was very scientifically predisposed (my masters is research medicine). Most of my peers were highschool grads with the minimum biology required for provincial certification, and good lord the quackery and healthfraud was rampant. I also had the advantage of a psychology degree and license as a therapist at the time (disclosure - I'm no longer a licensed therapist). I spent 25 years with people who were trying to modify their bodies through willpower and effort, be it muscle mass gain or adipose tissue loss or endurance improvement, &c. I've kept current as part of skepticism/healthfraud, and I maintain some adjacent skills as an open water swim coach for adults and children. I am *considering* returning to the profession when I take a package at my current workplace in a few years, but it will depend on how my writing is going.

A valuable skeptical concept here is something called Attribution BiasWP. We congratulate ourselves on making complex decisions, while attributing the decisions of others to them being mindless sheep. I see this in practice with fat shaming. [I have seen a lot of fat shamers gain wait and either never speak of it again] or double down and emphasize that for them it's *different*. But the truth is, most of us were never demonstrating better willpower or knowledge... just wrapping a story around the fact that we were dealt a different hand of cards.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 02:33 PM   #155
dann
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
[I have seen a lot of fat shamers gain weight and either never speak of it again] or double down and emphasize that for them it's *different*. But the truth is, most of us were never demonstrating better willpower or knowledge... just wrapping a story around the fact that we were dealt a different hand of cards.

I couldn't agree more. I've never been fat, but I always stress that willpower has nothing to do with it. I have no need to fat shame or to think of myself as a better person because I'm not fat, so if I ever get fat for some reason, I also won't have to feel ashamed or be in denial about it. The fat shamers who get fat remind me of the people who blame others for being unemployed and then end up on the dole themselves. Or the white supremacists who get DNA tested and discover that their great-grandmother was black ...
Interesting Reddit story!
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Old 23rd October 2019, 02:55 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I couldn't agree more. I've never been fat, but I always stress that willpower has nothing to do with it. I have no need to fat shame or to think of myself as a better person because I'm not fat, so if I ever get fat for some reason, I also won't have to feel ashamed or be in denial about it. The fat shamers who get fat remind me of the people who blame others for being unemployed and then end up on the dole themselves.

Or the white supremacists who get DNA tested and discover that their great-grandmother was black ...
The 1929 Great Depression was a big part of what killed off American and British (including here in my home town of Vancouver, Canadian) eugenics movements. All those men and women who assumed they were employed and wealthy because they had better 'character' than the unemployed and poor, found themselves in bread lines and had time to do a little thinking.



Originally Posted by dann View Post
Interesting Reddit story!
I try not to pin a scientific claim on anecdote, but there's value in extracting an example for illustration purposes. This contributor had an injury, but most of the fat shamers I know who gained weight simply aged into it over time. Hormones are a bitch.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:57 AM   #157
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There are also incorrigible fat shamers who don't stop fat shaming even after they've grown fat themselves:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th October 2019, 10:59 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
There's *lots* of studies that do exactly this, to the point where it's even broken down by demography (adult males, male vs female K-12 age, [LGBTQ]... )

It's a very studied subject, for obvious reasons - policymakers want to do something about obesity. Fat shaming is a national pastime. Is it working? Can we make it work better? &c.

We also have credible proxies such as public weighings, which are part of many K-12 school health programs, which have been introduced to random students in a single class, as an attempt to control for as many variables as possible.

The results show that public humiliation of the overweight has negative motivational results, and negative weight loss effects (specifically: causes more weight gain, reduces participation in physical activities, and increases depression and suicide rates).

The conflict, as pointed out by many posters, is that fat shaming is something some people want to do for their own reasons, but the data show's it causes the situation to worsen. The complication is that while advocates say it's about reducing weight, when confronted with the data, they persist anyway, and that reveals to me that it's not about the patients, it seems to be more about the shamer's personal entertainment/gratification.



The other one that policymakers keep trying - but is proven not to work - is activity. '[Normal]' increased activity levels (eg: [giving kids ten times as much physed]) just don't seem to have any effect on obesity rates. We are more active than our previous three or four generations of ancestors; obesity is a product of gradual calorie intake increases over that timeframe, which has various causes that need to be addressed in their own ways.


(My background
25 years as a personal fitness trainer.
I was unusual in my personal fitness training career in that I was very scientifically predisposed (my masters is research medicine). Most of my peers were highschool grads with the minimum biology required for provincial certification, and good lord the quackery and healthfraud was rampant. I also had the advantage of a psychology degree and license as a therapist at the time (disclosure - I'm no longer a licensed therapist). I spent 25 years with people who were trying to modify their bodies through willpower and effort, be it muscle mass gain or adipose tissue loss or endurance improvement, &c. I've kept current as part of skepticism/healthfraud, and I maintain some adjacent skills as an open water swim coach for adults and children. I am *considering* returning to the profession when I take a package at my current workplace in a few years, but it will depend on how my writing is going.

A valuable skeptical concept here is something called Attribution BiasWP. We congratulate ourselves on making complex decisions, while attributing the decisions of others to them being mindless sheep. I see this in practice with fat shaming. [I have seen a lot of fat shamers gain wait and either never speak of it again] or double down and emphasize that for them it's *different*. But the truth is, most of us were never demonstrating better willpower or knowledge... just wrapping a story around the fact that we were dealt a different hand of cards.
I understand your response, but not how it might apply to the question of the role "fat shaming" plays in the non obese population.
The studies seem to be looking at how fat shaming fails to help currently obese individuals to become healthier, and how it actually has negative health effects in that population. They do not seem to be attempting to ascertain what role it play (if any) in preventing obesity in the first place.

Analogous to making a study as to how laws against murder do not prevent murders by studying people who have committed the act, without considering the reasons people in a similar situation did not kill.
I wonder if anyone has tried to determine how much higher or lower obesity rates would be without negative societal pressures against being obese.
Might one consider that we older people tend to let ourselves become fat, not only because of biological changes- but perhaps in part because our susceptibility to the peer pressure of fat shaming (among other social pressures) is either diminished, or simply becomes too difficult to acquiesce to.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:14 PM   #159
blutoski
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I understand your response, but not how it might apply to the question of the role "fat shaming" plays in the non obese population.
The studies seem to be looking at how fat shaming fails to help currently obese individuals to become healthier, and how it actually has negative health effects in that population. They do not seem to be attempting to ascertain what role it play (if any) in preventing obesity in the first place.

Analogous to making a study as to how laws against murder do not prevent murders by studying people who have committed the act, without considering the reasons people in a similar situation did not kill.
I wonder if anyone has tried to determine how much higher or lower obesity rates would be without negative societal pressures against being obese.
Might one consider that we older people tend to let ourselves become fat, not only because of biological changes- but perhaps in part because our susceptibility to the peer pressure of fat shaming (among other social pressures) is either diminished, or simply becomes too difficult to acquiesce to.
So firstly, the claim that's being tested is that the fat shamers are brave heroes taking action for the greater good, because the more they shame the fatties the more likely they'll change their ways and turn back to being a good skinny. I'm willing to examine the claim that's being made, and it turns out to be crap.


Secondly, not all studies are as you describe. Some are longitudinal, and take place over many years. Publishing weights and fitness results, for example. The populations with public weight and fitness displays develop more obese, less active kids over time than the segment without the policy. The causal relationship seems supported.

*** having said that ***
There are many causes to obesity, and public denigration is just one of them. The contribution is minor. But all of the factors' contributions are minor, and combine into what's referred to as an obesogenic environment. There need to be many solutions, there is no quick fix.
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Last edited by blutoski; 24th October 2019 at 03:20 PM. Reason: eta comment about there being no single factor for quick fix
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Old 24th October 2019, 05:04 PM   #160
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
So firstly, the claim that's being tested is that the fat shamers are brave heroes taking action for the greater good, because the more they shame the fatties the more likely they'll change their ways and turn back to being a good skinny. I'm willing to examine the claim that's being made, and it turns out to be crap.


Secondly, not all studies are as you describe. Some are longitudinal, and take place over many years. Publishing weights and fitness results, for example. The populations with public weight and fitness displays develop more obese, less active kids over time than the segment without the policy. The causal relationship seems supported.

*** having said that ***
There are many causes to obesity, and public denigration is just one of them. The contribution is minor. But all of the factors' contributions are minor, and combine into what's referred to as an obesogenic environment. There need to be many solutions, there is no quick fix.
Without the hyperbole, still no.
The question that might be tested would be what extent the role of "fat shaming" plays in motivating the non obese to remain (or become) so.
Or, as a corollary, does greater social tolerance for obesity produce more obese individuals?
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