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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 24th October 2019, 11:12 PM   #161
dann
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Might one consider that we older people tend to let ourselves become fat, not only because of biological changes- but perhaps in part because our susceptibility to the peer pressure of fat shaming (among other social pressures) is either diminished, or simply becomes too difficult to acquiesce to.

Feel free to consider it, but remember that all age groups are growing obese, not just "we older people." When you say "that we older people tend to let ourselves become fat" instead of simply saying that we older people tend to become fat, you make your bias obvious: We are in control of not 'letting ourselves go'.

Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Or, as a corollary, does greater social tolerance for obesity produce more obese individuals?

Do you have any reason to think so? Do you have any reason to think that the social tolerance for obesity has increased?

Quote:
children as young as three exhibit anti-fat attitudes.
Discrimination against fat people is so endemic, most of us don’t even realise it’s happening (The Conversation, May 9, 2018)

Quote:
Results: Overall, the data indicate that a wide range of media - from television shows to books, newspapers, and the internet - portray overweight and obese individuals in a stigmatizing manner.
Weight bias in the media: a review of recent research. (PubMed, Feb. 2010)

Are there fat jokes? (Does-the-Dog-Die? website with many examples of recent movies with fat jokes)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 26th October 2019, 04:48 PM   #162
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This Dr. Georgia Ede person has my attention:

Obesity: Stop Shaming, Start Understanding

Quote:
We now understand that obesity is usually an external, visible clue to an internal, invisible metabolic disorder called insulin resistance.
Quote:
Insulin resistance is primarily the result of years of eating ultra-processed foods loaded with refined carbohydrates and vegetable oils that our bodies simply aren’t designed to handle: sugar, flour, fruit juice, cereal, and foods made with soybean oil and other unnatural fats. Unfortunately, for complicated political reasons, many of these same products are officially recommended in our U.S. Dietary Guidelines, so we’ve been taught to include them in a healthy diet. These modern non-foods, which have only been widely available to human beings for a handful of decades, contribute to unnaturally high insulin levels, oxidation, and inflammation, which slowly destroy cells from the inside out.

Dr. Ede claims to follow a carnivore diet..
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Old 27th October 2019, 10:56 AM   #163
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Here is another good article; this one from Dr. Peter Attia

Is ditching meat a “game-changer” for your health?

Quote:
Vegans and vegetarians are probably some of the most health-conscious people on the planet. This also means that when you compare these people to the general U.S. population, avoiding meat is but one of a myriad of differences between them. Observing differences in health outcomes is relatively easy. Determining the cause of those differences is virtually impossible.
Quote:
The problem with using the Standard American Diet (SAD) as a control group.
What often happens, either in the volumes of observational epidemiologic studies that get cranked out every day or, less commonly, in films like this, is that a vegan or vegetarian diet is compared to the SAD, with the SAD as stand-in for a “meat-based” diet, as if the only difference between the two diets is one eschews animal foods. Take a look below at the top 10 sources of Calories in the U.S. diet circa 2010. You tell me, that even if you think meat is a problem, tell me that meat is the only problem with this list.
  • Grain-based desserts (cakes, cookies, donuts, pies, crisps, cobblers, and granola bars)
  • Yeast breads
  • Chicken and chicken-mixed dishes
  • Soda, energy drinks, and sports drinks
  • Pizza
  • Alcoholic beverages
  • Pasta and pasta dishes
  • Mexican mixed dishes
  • Beef and beef-mixed dishes
  • Dairy desserts

I don’t think anyone would look at this list and question why Americans are so overweight and so sick. (By the way, there is not one item on this list that I do not absolutely love, except for #4. So I’m completely empathetic to the plight of anyone reading this who also craves these foods. They make up our default food environment and until that changes, we’re in for a rough ride, as a society.)
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Old 2nd November 2019, 01:58 AM   #164
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Try reading things that aren't mass media reports of fad diets.

Many universities, governments, aid agencies have studied diets of different nations, cultures, tribes, regions, islands.

Cross-sectional international dietary cohort meta-studies, in other words, not just contrasting extreme US fads against the US SAD nor looking for mere correlations to sell headlines.

These international studies have isolated many different individual foods, nutrients, micronutrients, macronutrients, vitamins, and food groups. Eg, local or global diets that isolate or eliminate starches, or red meat, or pork, or seafood, or processed food, or Vitamin A, or Vitamin E, or green vegetables, etc, etc.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 07:01 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Here is another good article; this one from Dr. Peter Attia

Is ditching meat a “game-changer” for your health?

Cutting out (or reducing considerably) 1, 4, 6 and 10 would probably improve your health considerably. They don't contain meat, but they do contain an awful lot of sugar and other carbs. The animal products in two of them, i.e. dairy, are probably not the problem. The sugar is. Reducing the sugar in the recipes (and/or replacing it with stevia) could also be an option, as could making the grain-based desserts whole-grain based.
2, 5, 7 and probably 8 contain a lot of carbs, but of the slow type. And again, switching to whole grain would make a difference, as would eliminating artificial trans fats.

Quote:
1. Grain-based desserts (cakes, cookies, donuts, pies, crisps, cobblers, and granola bars)
2. Yeast breads
3. Chicken and chicken-mixed dishes
4. Soda, energy drinks, and sports drinks
5. Pizza
6. Alcoholic beverages
7. Pasta and pasta dishes
8. Mexican mixed dishes
9. Beef and beef-mixed dishes
10. Dairy desserts
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 3rd November 2019, 03:08 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
...but most of the fat shamers I know who gained weight simply aged into it over time. Hormones are a bitch.
Americans gain a pound a year.

I'm not overweight, I'm under aged.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 03:26 PM   #167
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Quote:
:
We now understand that obesity is usually an external, visible clue to an internal, invisible metabolic disorder called insulin resistance.
Yup. The gene seems to be the IRS-1 gene, "Insulin Receptor Substrate #1 " 40% of ALL ethnicities have it. And most of the side effects of T2DM are caused by the excess insulin acting as a growth hormone. "Insulin-like Growth Hormone", IGF1 to be exact. I turned diabetic 40 years ago. Recently had an eye bleed. Seems they are caused by excess growth of arteries in the eye. Treatment might be one of the chemo drugs that prevent artery growth in tumors. Hmm, carpal tunnel and trigger fingers are common in diabetics, cause is not related to sugar levels. Hmm, can you say "Growth of tendons"? Clogged Arteries are more common too- growth of artery walls, scar tissue, etc? See where I am going?

No wonder studies have show that obesity is pretty harmless if you are NOT diabetic. Of course if you are not diabetic you also lack the "ravenous appetite" aspect of that gene, so are less likely to be obese either. Diabetics have pot bellies, non-diabetics have hips and love handles. Hmm, that explains on of the measurements used to calculate the health risks of excess weight- waist measures less than 80% of hips is good. Pear shaped is good, apple shape is bad.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 03:35 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Cutting out (or reducing considerably) 1, 4, 6 and 10 would probably improve your health considerably. They don't contain meat, but they do contain an awful lot of sugar and other carbs. The animal products in two of them, i.e. dairy, are probably not the problem. The sugar is. Reducing the sugar in the recipes (and/or replacing it with stevia) could also be an option, as could making the grain-based desserts whole-grain based.
2, 5, 7 and probably 8 contain a lot of carbs, but of the slow type. And again, switching to whole grain would make a difference, as would eliminating artificial trans fats.
That is Dr. Attia's point. He is a Keto guru.

I've been cooking in beef shortening, lots of fried meals. And beef daily. Butter as required- pancakes etc. I had a NSTEMI heart attack in April. My LDL was 88. I knoiw thy want it under 100, I may have been near the lower limit.
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Old 4th November 2019, 05:01 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
That is Dr. Attia's point. He is a Keto guru.
I bet his point isn't also that slow carbohydrates are actually essential brain food.

Quote:
I've been cooking in beef shortening, lots of fried meals. And beef daily. Butter as required- pancakes etc. I had a NSTEMI heart attack in April. My LDL was 88. I knoiw thy want it under 100, I may have been near the lower limit.
Don't you also exercise a lot?
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Old 4th November 2019, 02:23 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I bet his point isn't also that slow carbohydrates are actually essential brain food.
Not sure what your point is.


Of protein, fat and carbohydrates, carbohydrates are the only one that is not essential to human health.
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Old 5th November 2019, 06:39 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not sure what your point is.


Of protein, fat and carbohydrates, carbohydrates are the only one that is not essential to human health.
Directly no, our liver breaks doewn fats a proteins to make sugar.

BUT, feeding the necessary biomes of our guts? Yup.

Most of our calories? Nope. But even Peter Attia eats umm 50 grams of carbs per day.
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Old 5th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #172
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It's really hard, if impossible, to eat and go Zero carbs. I don't count carbs while I avoid most sources.

I'm just pointing out, that the idea that " quality " carbs are an essential part of a healthy diet is nonsense..
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Old 5th November 2019, 10:11 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It's really hard, if impossible, to eat and go Zero carbs. I don't count carbs while I avoid most sources.

I'm just pointing out, that the idea that " quality " carbs are an essential part of a healthy diet is nonsense..


It's not nonsense, though I sympathise that it conflicts with methods with which you've had weight loss success and improvement in certain health markers.




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Old 6th November 2019, 06:27 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
It's really hard, if impossible, to eat and go Zero carbs. I don't count carbs while I avoid most sources.

I'm just pointing out, that the idea that " quality " carbs are an essential part of a healthy diet is nonsense..
Zero is not really possible, but very low, under 30 grams is very much sustainable, there are entire diabetic forums devoted to the subject. My carbs come from things like peppers, onions, and tomatoes.
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Old 9th November 2019, 09:53 AM   #175
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Ever heard if MOTS-C ? It is the output of a gene, MT- RNR1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MT-RNR1

It's a peptide released from mitochondria when the mito runs out of energy. It up-regulates the nuclear genes, so controls energy. Lowers serum glucose, fat metabolism.... It probably accounts for the advantages of exercise. https://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism...131(18)30518-7 One thing it does is lessen the purine cycle, of which I have a bad gene, AMPD-1 deficiency. Sounds like a silver bullet for me.

It can have exogenous sources- exercise in a pill? A REAL fat burning pill? Well, an injectable so far. $350/month, but kind of experimental. But there is a company working on surrogate as a patented biologic, company is CohBar, product is CB4211. I'll bet is a GMO-produced biologic, with a copyright protection that never runs out. Price will be "all the insurance companies will pay". It'll work out to $100,000/qaly. My HMO probably pays about $300/month for my insulin. But that may not be the only company working on it, competition will lower the price. I eagerly await our GMO Overlords.
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Old 9th November 2019, 03:26 PM   #176
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Everyone wants a magic pill instead of just following a healthy life style..
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:40 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Everyone wants a magic pill instead of just following a healthy life style..
Indeed, because wanting to do things the easy way is exactly how most of us became overweight.
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Old 10th November 2019, 04:27 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Everyone wants a magic pill instead of just following a healthy life style..
Indeed, because wanting to do things the easy way is exactly how most of us became overweight.

No, not at all! You are as wrong as you could possibly be.
You both base your assumptions on what has been done to you: You are placed in circumstances where "just following a healthy lifestyle" requires an extra effort: It is something you have to force yourself to do in addition to the efforts required by ordinary capitalist life: In addition to working, transporting yourself to and from work, doing the ordinary household chores and cooking, you also have to make an extra effort to stay fit.

Now, if you are a wealthy person, you don't really have to concern yourself with any of that stuff: You have employees to do the household chores, the cooking, the driving etc., and you have plenty of time and energy to play tennis, golf, do horseback riding (whatever!) because you live an easy life of plenty, and you sure as hell don't want to eat the **** that presents itself to you on the supermarket shelves. Your chef takes care of the healthy as well as delicious meals for you. All you have to do is eat them.

You don't even have to know about any of that stuff: Bill Gates Is Adorably Terrible at Guessing the Cost of Everyday Groceries (Vice, Feb. 23, 2018)
You are free to let your mind be occupied with much more interesting stuff, you don't dream of magic pills, you lead a healthy lifestyle because it's fun, and you stay slim until (at least) the ripe old age of 64: I´ll do the running! – Federer teams up with Bill Gates for charity (Sports Ration, March 6, 2018)
And you tend to outlive poor people by 10 to 15 years! The Gross Inequality of Death in America (The New Republic, May 10, 2019)

The living conditions of these guys encourage them to move around, be active, enjoy themselves physically as well as mentally. They don't have to force themselves to go to a stinking gym to do exercises. Their surroundings invite them to move around:
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I AGREE

They lead healthy lifestyles because they are free from the pressures of ordinary working-class lives, i.e. poverty, that make people fantasize of magical solutions and make them blame themselves for every little thing that's wrong with their lives instead of focussing on the actual causes.


ETA: I'm no Bill Gates, I'm about the same age, but I don't want a magic pill. Everyone doesn't.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 10th November 2019, 05:58 AM   #179
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You guys make it sound as if a treatment for a genetic variation is cheating.
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:49 AM   #180
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It isn't cheating, obviously, but if exercise is the solution to the problem, then exercise! (I.e. in my version, have people live in an environment that encourages exercising!) And give the pill to people who can't exercise, for instance paraplegics.
The problem with pills in general is like the attempts to turn food into medicine: Yes, you may discover that a certain kind of food is good for people, and immediately big pharma tries to find the one ingredient that's at play and forgets about all the other important micro nutrients that people will lack if they get the one-ingredient pill instead of proper food.
Why resort to insulin when people can be cured by exercising and losing weight? Make your city bicycle friendly. Save insulin for type 1 diabetics who don't have the option of being cured in this way.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th November 2019, 11:21 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Indeed, because wanting to do things the easy way is exactly how most of us became overweight.
I agree if you mean by easy, that we prefer to use processed, calorie heavy, nutritionally deficient foods, that the food manufacturers push on us with catchy advertising and lining the eye-level grocery store shelves with..
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Old 10th November 2019, 06:03 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It isn't cheating, obviously, but if exercise is the solution to the problem, then exercise! (I.e. in my version, have people live in an environment that encourages exercising!) And give the pill to people who can't exercise, for instance paraplegics.
The problem with pills in general is like the attempts to turn food into medicine: Yes, you may discover that a certain kind of food is good for people, and immediately big pharma tries to find the one ingredient that's at play and forgets about all the other important micro nutrients that people will lack if they get the one-ingredient pill instead of proper food.
Why resort to insulin when people can be cured by exercising and losing weight? Make your city bicycle friendly. Save insulin for type 1 diabetics who don't have the option of being cured in this way.
In 2011 I worked off 60# in three months. Later I blew out a knee and needed a replacement. I put back on 30# while invalid. I thought piece of cake, I'll just get back to working off the 30#. Not so easy any more.

I figure jump start me with the MOTS, and I'll take it from there.

My reading on T2DM points me to the belief that the down sides are not caused by the sugar level, nor the obesity. Obese non-diabetics don't have near the complications of the diabetic. It's the high insulin level. Excess insulin acts like Insulin Like Growth Factor-1. It is the 'roids' that the body builders take. So, more growth- in places like carpal tunnels and artery walls, and eye arteries. Treating the insulin resistance has got to be waaaay better than increasing my insulin dose.
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Old 10th November 2019, 11:42 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, not at all! You are as wrong as you could possibly be.
You both base your assumptions on what has been done to you: You are placed in circumstances where "just following a healthy lifestyle" requires an extra effort: It is something you have to force yourself to do in addition to the efforts required by ordinary capitalist life: In addition to working, transporting yourself to and from work, doing the ordinary household chores and cooking, you also have to make an extra effort to stay fit.

Now, if you are a wealthy person, you don't really have to concern yourself with any of that stuff: You have employees to do the household chores, the cooking, the driving etc., and you have plenty of time and energy to play tennis, golf, do horseback riding (whatever!) because you live an easy life of plenty, and you sure as hell don't want to eat the **** that presents itself to you on the supermarket shelves. Your chef takes care of the healthy as well as delicious meals for you. All you have to do is eat them.

You don't even have to know about any of that stuff: Bill Gates Is Adorably Terrible at Guessing the Cost of Everyday Groceries (Vice, Feb. 23, 2018)
You are free to let your mind be occupied with much more interesting stuff, you don't dream of magic pills, you lead a healthy lifestyle because it's fun, and you stay slim until (at least) the ripe old age of 64: I´ll do the running! – Federer teams up with Bill Gates for charity (Sports Ration, March 6, 2018)
And you tend to outlive poor people by 10 to 15 years! The Gross Inequality of Death in America (The New Republic, May 10, 2019)

The living conditions of these guys encourage them to move around, be active, enjoy themselves physically as well as mentally. They don't have to force themselves to go to a stinking gym to do exercises. Their surroundings invite them to move around:
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I AGREE

They lead healthy lifestyles because they are free from the pressures of ordinary working-class lives, i.e. poverty, that make people fantasize of magical solutions and make them blame themselves for every little thing that's wrong with their lives instead of focussing on the actual causes.


ETA: I'm no Bill Gates, I'm about the same age, but I don't want a magic pill. Everyone doesn't.
Your lack of charity is apparent. You underestimate me again.

Of course we agree with all that.

Wanting to be efficient is not lazy.

It's how we developed technology, tools, agriculture.

We just got too efficient at making food easy to prepare.

I'm talking about how we don't have to hunt and gather, or cut wood, or churn butter, or grow our own vegetables.



Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You guys make it sound as if a treatment for a genetic variation is cheating.
One genetic variation doesn't address the other influences of our metabolism:

Food timing, women's menstruation cycles, exercise after-burns, etc.

The research you talk about might suit your very unique individual traits.

But just fixing that won't fix the obesity.

Yes, I know you know a hell of a lot about managing all the other factors, but the average person probably doesn't, and I think it's fairly certain they will still need to change other things.


Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I agree if you mean by easy, that we prefer to use processed, calorie heavy, nutritionally deficient foods, that the food manufacturers push on us with catchy advertising and lining the eye-level grocery store shelves with..
That's only part of it. See above.

We've stopped burning as much energy to allow us to eat.

Our non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) has got much lower.

Many of us sit all day. We don't walk far, or even ride horses and tend for them.

We don't wash dishes by hand. We use clothes dryers instead of walking a lot more to get the laundry done. Etc.

(Dann may not be aware I'm talking about "we" not me, and I mean average people, who are overweight. I lost 35 kg four years ago and have kept it off. I don't drive, I don't have a dishwasher, I'm very concerned about energy use and the environment.)
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Old 11th November 2019, 06:04 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Your lack of charity is apparent. You underestimate me again.
Of course we agree with all that.
Wanting to be efficient is not lazy.
It's how we developed technology, tools, agriculture.
We just got too efficient at making food easy to prepare.
I'm talking about how we don't have to hunt and gather, or cut wood, or churn butter, or grow our own vegetables.

I don't lack charity, and I don't underestimate you. On the contrary, I seem to have overestimated you. I also never invented a single tool, piece of technology or contributed to agriculture. I never hunted, gathered, churned butter or grew my own vegetables, and I've cut wood about three times in my life. It's the standard way to explain obesity, in particular among conservatives in this forum:

'We' are fat because life's too easy. If only we had to work harder, we'd all be slim and happy.
It's a lie. 'We' don't put up soft-drink dispensers at schools. The soft-drink industry does. And it doesn't do so to make life easier or better for people. They do it to sell their **** and make their owner 'fat'. (But they probably aren't, actually, fat. They don't have to drink their own ****** products except when a photographer is nearby.

If they can also make schools eliminate drinking water fountains, it's even better, i.e. if you can make access to healthy foods and beverages difficult, not easy, you can turn a profit: Beverage industry capitalizing on countries with fewer health regulations
If you can also make children as well as adults consider water to be low status, you're on the right track for a pay rise.

Do you still think that it's something 'we' do?
If you can make schools give up teaching home science, it will also be so much easier for you to sell the cheap, low-grade, pre-fabricated stuff.

And I think that we've already covered the incredibly unhealthy trans fats, haven't we? Why did 'we' invent those? Did the consumers suddenly start demanding that all foods should contain this kind of poison? Was it an absolute necessity, something that industry couldn't do without? Or was it because trans fats make things slightly more convenient and easy for industry? (**** the consumers!)
We know, don't we?!!!

Quote:
One genetic variation doesn't address the other influences of our metabolism:
Food timing, women's menstruation cycles, exercise after-burns, etc.
The research you talk about might suit your very unique individual traits.
But just fixing that won't fix the obesity.
Yes, I know you know a hell of a lot about managing all the other factors, but the average person probably doesn't, and I think it's fairly certain they will still need to change other things.

Yes, they will need to change the way that society operates nowadays.

Quote:
That's only part of it. See above.
We've stopped burning as much energy to allow us to eat.
Our non-exercise activity thermogenesis (NEAT) has got much lower.
Many of us sit all day. We don't walk far, or even ride horses and tend for them.
We don't wash dishes by hand. We use clothes dryers instead of walking a lot more to get the laundry done. Etc.
(Dann may not be aware I'm talking about "we" not me, and I mean average people, who are overweight. I lost 35 kg four years ago and have kept it off. I don't drive, I don't have a dishwasher, I'm very concerned about energy use and the environment.)

Yes, many of us not only sit but sit all day. And why is that? Because we find sitting so enjoyable that we just can't help ourselves, or because that's what our jobs require us to do. Have you noticed the people working on their laptops while they're commuting? It's pretty difficult to do on horseback, on a bike or walking ...
(I'm happy that I don't have to tend for a horse!)

I still wash dishes by hand, but I don't think that it has much to do with keeping fit. It doesn't do much to get your heart rate up. But I walk to the laundromat, not for the exercise, not because I don't have the room or the money for a washing machine, but because I can't be bothered to have one installed. When the washing machine breaks down, it's the laundromat owner's problem, not mine! So in a way, it's because I'm lazy.

I could hang my wet clothes to dry in the attic (the spire belongs to me ), but I prefer to pay the laundromat guy to use the dryers, and it hasn't made me fat yet. (I don't know about him.)

But I also live right next to the most beautiful park in Copenhagen, so unlike many other I'm encouraged to go for a walk if the weather is good. That makes a hell of a difference, but instead of thinking along those lines, you seem to be obsessed with the things that used to force people to walk, as if convenience and not capitalist poverty is what makes people fat.
(Bill Gates probably owns a park ... or two or three ...)


ETA: 19 crazy facts about Bill Gates' $127 million mansion (Business Insider, Dec. 7, 2018).
(I'm pretty sure he also owns a dishwasher, a washing machine and a dryer. And I'm sure that he doesn't have to walk at all if he doesn't want to. I'm not really sure if he knows how to operate a dishwasher, a washing machine and a dryer, but I don't doubt that he would be able to read the manual and find out if he had to.)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 11th November 2019, 06:32 AM   #185
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PS

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
I'm very concerned about energy use and the environment.)

I'm not sure that you should be. I think that you should be concerned about capitalism:
A relatively small number of fossil fuel producers and their investors could hold the key to tackling climate change (Guardian, July 10, 2017)
These 100 Companies Are to Blame For 71% of The World's Greenhouse Gas Emissions (ScienceAlert, July 11, 2017)

I don't think that not driving and not having a dish washer matters much.

(And the idea that we hear all the time from otherwise sensible people in this forum that there are "too many people" is insane: World’s richest 10% produce half of carbon emissions while poorest 3.5 billion account for just a tenth (Oxfam, Dec, 2, 2015))
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th November 2019, 11:28 PM   #186
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Don't mansplain any of this to me.

We're on the same side.
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Old 13th November 2019, 12:02 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We're on the same side.
Don't be to sure of that. dann is full commie. Never go full commie.
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Old 13th November 2019, 01:00 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't be to sure of that. dann is full commie. Never go full commie.
I've read The Communist Manifesto 3 times. Does that meet that criteria?

Dann, I liked the Nature study you posted elsewhere, comparing the New Nordic Diet with the Standard Danish Diet.

A bit like the Planetary Diet (EAT-Lancet recommendations).

In general terms, increasing one's proportions of fruit and veg, fibre, nuts, unsaturated fats, Omega 3s and protein can keep our digestive system feeling full for longer and feeling better, as well as improving our whole body health.

This explains why some people do well on LCHF and some on highish carbs... because both WOEs can incorporate those essentials.
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Old 14th November 2019, 12:40 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Don't be to(o) sure of that. dann is full commie. Never go full commie.

Another one of those! I should probably make a list of the posters who think that other people don't know who Marx and Brecht were.
I have no idea what is meant by, "Never go full commie." Wasn't it meant to be, 'Never go left of alt-right'?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th November 2019, 01:33 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Don't mansplain any of this to me.

We're on the same side.

I don't see the mansplaining at all. But I do see a consequence of the fact that we find ourselves in circumstances where we are forced to seek individual solutions to all our problems, be it obesity or CO2 emissions, and where we are expected to feel guilty about any little CO2 emission caused by us while ignoring the major contributors. See the Thunberg thread.
This is the new CO2 version of fat shaming - except that the only people being shamed are the ones who are actually concerned about CO2 emissions. The Nazis and their allies are very good at this.
I am reminded on a daily basis how difficult it is to avoid added sugar to dairy products when I try to find a yoghurt with fruit but without added sugar - not to avoid gaining weight, but because I prefer the taste of dairy without sugar. Recently products have appeared that offer artificial sweeteners as an alternative, but I really don't want that ****. I want a yogurt with fruit, but it's impossible to find unless I buy plain yoghurt and add the fruit myself. (Which I do.)

Brand new study:
Quote:
On average, infants consumed a teaspoon of added sugar a day while toddlers consumed about 6 teaspoons a day.
"We did however find differences in added sugars consumption by race and Hispanic origin," Herrick said. "For example, non-Hispanic Asian toddlers consumed the fewest added sugars at around 3.7 teaspoons [a day]. Non-Hispanic Black toddlers consumed the most added sugars at about 8.2 teaspoons [a day]."
Nearly all toddlers, and the majority of babies, eat too much added sugar in the US, study says (CNN, Nov. 14, 2019)

And it's pretty obvious why the manufacturers add all the sugar: It's not a public demand, it's not because consumers ask for it. It's because the consumer panels tell the companies that added sugar will sell more because of its alluring taste.
The right-wingers use this to claim that it's what consumers want, but if that had actually been the case, they would proudly have added the message in big letters on the product: '15 spoonfuls of sugar added!'
Which they don't, for obvious reasons! It's always in letters so small that you often can't read it if you didn't bring your glasses.

So now we find ourselves in the absurd situation where the dairy companies have made people so used to the taste of sugar in dairy that they dare not simply remove it without adding artificial sweeteners.
That's how Ziggurat's capitalism works and makes people fat: Find a way to sell as much of your unhealthy **** as possible, make it difficult for people to discover that it's unhealthy (the labels display all the healthy fruit, not all the unhealthy lumps of sugar), and when the consumers slowly become aware of the all the unhealthy **** you add, tell them that they were the ones who asked you to add it, the sloppy fat pigs.
That's also how we ended up with the artery-clogging trans fats: Thats's what consumers want, so that's why you always see it in big letters on the labels:
Full of delicious trans fats! Yummy!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th November 2019, 02:04 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
In general terms, increasing one's proportions of fruit and veg, fibre, nuts, unsaturated fats, Omega 3s and protein can keep our digestive system feeling full for longer and feeling better, as well as improving our whole body health.

Saturated fats appear to less of a problem than we used to think: Saturated Fat and Cardiovascular Diseases: The Role of Milk Products in Reducing Risk (Dairy Nutrition)
And unless you are eating almost no fruit at all, you should probably go easy on increasing your intake. (But a small glass of orange juice a day appears to be good if you want to avoid (or delay) dementia. Arne Astrup: Appelsinjuice kan halvere risikoen for mild demens (ProPatienter, Dec. 13, 2018) 'OJ can reduce the risk of mild dementia by 50%')
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th November 2019, 02:44 PM   #192
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We recently discovered that all my maternal family's side and kids are lactose intolerant.

We'd all noticed things, but never realised that about each other.

65% of the population are.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance

I've been having lactose-free yoghurt.

I want to learn how to make it.

Same as you, dann, I want to be able to add my own fruit.

Not only for less sugar/calories, but also to save on buying more plastic.
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Old 14th November 2019, 03:39 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
... we find ourselves in circumstances where we are forced to seek individual solutions to all our problems, be it obesity or CO2 emissions, and where we are expected to feel guilty about any little CO2 emission caused by us while ignoring the major contributors. See the Thunberg thread.
This is the new CO2 version of fat shaming - except that the only people being shamed are the ones who are actually concerned about CO2 emissions. The Nazis and their allies are very good at this.
Indeed!

I started a new thread I'd like you to read and perhaps comment on.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post12892619
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Old 14th November 2019, 04:31 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We recently discovered that all my maternal family's side and kids are lactose intolerant....
One might ask them self , why should any human be tolerant of a food that was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on a calf ?

( FWIW, Cheese is a major weakness for me...)
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:15 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
One might ask them self , why should any human be tolerant of a food that was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on a calf ?

( FWIW, Cheese is a major weakness for me...)
Great question!!

I did a test.

No dairy for a week, then that night I had cheesecake and icecream.

That was a painful 2-3 am.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:41 PM   #196
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Contrary to what Dann seems to think, consumers do want convenience foods. We love fat and sugar! We love processed crap! Trans-fats were invented because consumers wanted butter and lard without the butter and lard price. Sugar is added to foods because people want the sweetness.

Companies are in the business of providing what people want. So they do or they don’t make money. They are not in the business of poisoning their customers.

How long do you think Pepsi and Coca Cola would be in business if they eliminated all the unhealthy sugar products they make? The fact that they sell “healthier” versions of things reflects the consumer trend towards reducing sugar. But have you not seen the advertising on premium soda packages? “Made With Pure Cane Sugar.” High Fructose Corn Syrup is the bad guy.

People are, generally, ignorant when it comes to a good diet. We don’t really know what healthy is and the popular press doesn’t help with their “Study: Eggs are good for you/Study: Eggs are bad for you,” reporting of science that hasn’t actually reached an answer yet. We, generally, eat what we find easy and delicious.

And we eat that way because we are free to do so.
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Old 14th November 2019, 05:43 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
One might ask them self , why should any human be tolerant of a food that was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on a calf ?
Because it’s an excellent source of calories and protein, and people who have the mutation to tolerate lactose as adults have an advantage because they can use that source.

I don’t know why weight gain rates for calves is relevant since we aren’t calves.
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:03 PM   #198
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By the same token, I don't know why humans drinking cows milk is relevant, since we aren't calves..

P.S.

If cows milk is such a wonderful source for human nutrition, why does the dairy industry feel compelled to fortify it with vitamin D, and inundate the market with all kinds of low and no fat dairy products?
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:06 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Contrary to what Dann seems to think, consumers do want convenience foods. We love fat and sugar! We love processed crap! Trans-fats were invented because consumers wanted butter and lard without the butter and lard price. Sugar is added to foods because people want the sweetness.

Companies are in the business of providing what people want. So they do or they don’t make money. They are not in the business of poisoning their customers.

How long do you think Pepsi and Coca Cola would be in business if they eliminated all the unhealthy sugar products they make? The fact that they sell “healthier” versions of things reflects the consumer trend towards reducing sugar. But have you not seen the advertising on premium soda packages? “Made With Pure Cane Sugar.” High Fructose Corn Syrup is the bad guy.

People are, generally, ignorant when it comes to a good diet. We don’t really know what healthy is and the popular press doesn’t help with their “Study: Eggs are good for you/Study: Eggs are bad for you,” reporting of science that hasn’t actually reached an answer yet. We, generally, eat what we find easy and delicious.

And we eat that way because we are free to do so.
And a lot of us have ended up obese and otherwise unhealthy. Thus the subject of the thread..

Should we be free to make our children fat also?
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Old 14th November 2019, 06:51 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
By the same token, I don't know why humans drinking cows milk is relevant, since we aren't calves..

P.S.

If cows milk is such a wonderful source for human nutrition, why does the dairy industry feel compelled to fortify it with vitamin D, and inundate the market with all kinds of low and no fat dairy products?
The low and nonfat dairy thing is because the sugar industry convinced people that fat was unhealthy, even though it isn't.

I'm not sure what your point is about vitamin D, the fact that it's fortified with one vitamin doesn't really say anything about its general nutritional value. There are very few natural dietary sources of vitamin D, so it's not like any lack of vitamin D makes milk in any way worse than other foods. Milk was picked as the method for fortifying the public's vitamin D consumption back in 1933 because it's easy to add it to milk and most people drank milk.

Neither of these things has anything to do with the evolutionary advantages of milk consumption that led to the spread of lactose tolerance mutations.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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