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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 14th November 2019, 09:40 PM   #201
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Lactose intolerance means that you are intolerant of lactose, milk sugar. Shapr cheeses have no sugar left, it's all been turned into lactic acid. And sour cream? It's sourness is the acid. So you should be able to handle a LOT of diary products. Yogurt, kefir, many cheeses. Probably not "green" cheeses, those that are not fermented- cream cheese? cottage cheese? Ricotta? You need to do food challenges.

But lactose is not a problem for me. I'm even trying to ferment cottage cheese by adding a starter of Cotija cheese, draining, pressing, aging in the fridge. Previously I made cream cheeses into bleu , by laying a slice of bleu on the brick of cream cheese. mmmm, blue mold, mmmmm excellent.

Yugurt is real easy. Whatever milk you like- low fat, skim, or full fat. Stir in some factory yogurt as a starter, keep it about 95f overnight. Fresh warm yogurt for breakfast. Kefir is about the same.

All those probiotics for sale are mostly dairy cultures. Cheese is better, cheaper, tastes better.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:49 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The low and nonfat dairy thing is because the sugar industry convinced people that fat was unhealthy, even though it isn't.

I'm not sure what your point is about vitamin D, the fact that it's fortified with one vitamin doesn't really say anything about its general nutritional value. There are very few natural dietary sources of vitamin D, so it's not like any lack of vitamin D makes milk in any way worse than other foods. Milk was picked as the method for fortifying the public's vitamin D consumption back in 1933 because it's easy to add it to milk and most people drank milk.

Neither of these things has anything to do with the evolutionary advantages of milk consumption that led to the spread of lactose tolerance mutations.
We are all born lactose tolerant. The the switch to intolerance on weaning only took place where there was no dairy source. But since we went agrarian, we've had sources. We made the small mutation to take advantage of that food source. And now I am thinking not just as a food source but also as a probiotic source. I wonder how essential that is? Perhaps the right probiotic would 'eat' the sugar in our modern food? Does lactic acid need insulin to be burned as fuel? Lactic acid is not the toxin people think it is, in fact it is a preferential energy source for the heart muscle.
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Old 14th November 2019, 09:51 PM   #203
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P.S. but you can have an actual allergy to milk protein. <casein allergy>
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Old 15th November 2019, 01:31 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
By the same token, I don't know why humans drinking cows milk is relevant, since we aren't calves..
Milk is "designed" as a source of nutrition (for calves, sure), but almost everything else we eat can't even make that claim. The muscle on a cow's body wasn't designed with my nutritional needs in mind any more than the milk was (in fact less so), it's qualities are what they are to help the cow to move around. Roots, nuts, leaves, grains, none of these things evolved for human consumption (one could argue that some fruits did), yet we eat them.

Why do you make this argument with respect to cow's milk but not potatoes (a source of nutrients for potato plants! pretty far removed from humans)?
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:24 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Milk is "designed" as a source of nutrition (for calves, sure), but almost everything else we eat can't even make that claim. The muscle on a cow's body wasn't designed with my nutritional needs in mind any more than the milk was (in fact less so), it's qualities are what they are to help the cow to move around. Roots, nuts, leaves, grains, none of these things evolved for human consumption (one could argue that some fruits did), yet we eat them.

Why do you make this argument with respect to cow's milk but not potatoes (a source of nutrients for potato plants! pretty far removed from humans)?
Egg yolks are designed for nutrition too.

But if we want to restrict our diet to things that evolved to feed the next generation of plants and animals, - milk, eggs, fruit, seeds- then leaves, roots, and stems are verboten. No celery, no leafy greens, no broccoli..... Hmm, maybe I just defined my diet?
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:21 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
One might ask them self , why should any human be tolerant of a food that was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on a calf ?

Because evolution adapted (some of) them (us) to be so?!

Quote:
( FWIW, Cheese is a major weakness for me...)

That is the one kind of dairy I can't stand ... unless it's hot, on pizza or something similar ... and no longer stinks and tastes like cheese. You know, the kind of cheese that cheese aficionados despise!
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:31 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
We recently discovered that all my maternal family's side and kids are lactose intolerant.

We'd all noticed things, but never realised that about each other.

65% of the population are.

https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/lactose-intolerance

Not around here. It's estimated to be only 5-10% of the population in Denmark.

Quote:
I've been having lactose-free yoghurt.

I want to learn how to make it.

Same as you, dann, I want to be able to add my own fruit.

I would actually prefer to be able to buy the yogurt with fruit, but I can't - unless I also accept all the added sugar.

Quote:
Not only for less sugar/calories, but also to save on buying more plastic.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:45 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Great question!!

I did a test.

No dairy for a week, then that night I had cheesecake and icecream.

That was a painful 2-3 am.

Try with something other than sugar-stuffed dairy if you want to test it seriously. In spite of the name, sometimes there's hardly any dairy in ice cream, and the fermenting process breaks down most of the lactose in cheese: The Best Cheeses to Eat if You're Lactose Intolerant (Thrillist)

Yoghurt is also low in lactose: 6 Dairy Foods That Are Naturally Low in Lactose (Healthline, Feb. 2, 2017)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:25 AM   #209
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The Bourgeois Lie about Food (Take a note of this; you'll need it!)

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Contrary to what Dann seems to think, consumers do want convenience foods.

Contrary to what xjx388 thinks, I have nothing whatsoever against food being convenient. I prefer it that way, actually. But I can't stand unhealthy, substandard food, and that is what most convenience foods are. That is the way the market economy prefers it.

Quote:
We love fat and sugar! We love processed crap! Trans-fats were invented because consumers wanted butter and lard without the butter and lard price. Sugar is added to foods because people want the sweetness.

Yes, many of us love fat and sugar. But many of us also find it difficult to find processed food that isn't crap, i.e. full of trans fats and sugar.
Trans fats weren't invented "because consumers wanted butter and lard without the butter and lard price."

Quote:
Artificial trans fat dates back to the early 1900s, when German chemist Wilhelm Normann found that liquid vegetable or fish oils could be treated with hydrogen gas to make them solid or semi-solid. Versatile, long-lasting, and cheaper than animal fats such as butter, beef tallow, or lard, partially hydrogenated oils quickly became popular in the form of margarine, shortening, and frying oils.
Artificial Trans Fat: A Timeline - Key milestones in a 20-year-long campaign to get artificial trans fats out of the food supply. (Center for Science in the Public Interest, July 27, 2016)

At first, it was believed that trans fats were healthier than animal fats. However, since the 1970s it was suspected that they weren't:

Quote:
By the early 1990s, however, clinical and epidemiology studies established clear-cut evidence that industrially produced trans fat caused heart disease.
By the early 1990s!!! That was 25 years ago!!! So why haven't they been abolished yet? Why does it take forever to remove this poison from the shelves of supermarkets?
In my country, trans fats were banned in 2003:

Quote:
This regulatory approach has made Denmark the only country in which it is possible to eat "far less" than 1 g of industrially produced trans fats daily, even with a diet including prepared foods.[126] It is hypothesized that the Danish government's efforts to decrease trans fat intake from 6 g to 1 g per day over 20 years is related to a 50% decrease in deaths from ischemic heart disease.
Trans fat: Denmark (Wikipedia)

But in the USA,

Quote:
The FDA agreed in May 2018 to give companies one more year to find other ingredients for enhancing product flavors or grease industrial baking pans, effectively banning trans fats in the United States from May 2019 onwards. Also, while new products can no longer be made with trans fats, they will give foods already on the shelves some time to cycle out of the market.
Trans fat: USA (Wikipedia)

So the next time you go to a funeral of a relative, friend or colleague who died from a cardio-vascular disease, you should celebrate the sacrifice they made for the food companies!
According to the conservative and libertarian myth, this condition is due to consumer demand. People want to be poisoned:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Companies are in the business of providing what people want. So they do or they don’t make money. They are not in the business of poisoning their customers.

This is one of the favourite lies of conservatives and libertarians, and it has been repeated so often that they tend to believe it themselves. So let's take a closer look at xjx388's three short sentences:

1) What is the purpose of capitalism? The lie is that the purpose of businesses is to provide what people want.
2) But the second sentence makes the lie conspicuously obvious: ... or they don't make money!!! So the actual purpose for companies is to make money. They do this by selling stuff to their customers. And if they can sell their own stuff cheaper than their competitors, they can earn more money.
3) So it's actually not true that [i]they aren't in the business of poisoning their customers[i], because that is exactly what they are. Not like mafia hitmen, however. Their purpose is not to kill their customers. Their purpose is to earn money. But if they can earn money by selling products that kill their customers, be it cigarettes, guns or trans-fat-and-sugar-filled food, then that is exactly what they are in the business of doing.

And if anybody doubt that conservatives and libertarians are aware of this awful truth of capitalism, they should give xjx388 another chance to make it clear:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
How long do you think Pepsi and Coca Cola would be in business if they eliminated all the unhealthy sugar products they make? The fact that they sell “healthier” versions of things reflects the consumer trend towards reducing sugar. But have you not seen the advertising on premium soda packages? “Made With Pure Cane Sugar.” High Fructose Corn Syrup is the bad guy.

The purpose of capitalism is that businesses stay in business! And if they stay in business by killing their customers, then that's no real concern of theirs as long as they don't kill them too soon!
That is also the reason why they come up with devious marketing slogans like Made with pure cane sugar! When consumers begin to suspect that cigarettes aren't healthy, tobacco companies try to obfuscate the knowledge and the facts. They invent things like filters to make smokers think that there's a healthier alternative. And when customers hear that High Fructose Corn Syrup is unhealthy, they may even advertise with sugar alternatives that sound healthier even when they aren't: Made With Pure Cane Sugar.

Quote:
People are, generally, ignorant when it comes to a good diet. We don’t really know what healthy is and the popular press doesn’t help with their “Study: Eggs are good for you/Study: Eggs are bad for you,” reporting of science that hasn’t actually reached an answer yet. We, generally, eat what we find easy and delicious.

We generally eat what we find easy and delicious, yes, of course. And why shouldn't we? Why would we want to make it difficult and unsavory?!
However, that doesn't explain why businesses make it so damn easy for us to buy unhealthy affordable food, and so difficult (and sometimes impossible) to buy healthy expensive food. But that question is easy to answer: Because, as xjx388 already told us, that's how they make money! And it's much easier to make money as long as the consumers remain ignorant about what's healthy and what isn't, which is why whole armies of marketing and advertising employees are busy inventing new campaigns and memes to confuse people.
(And a lot of conservatives and libertarians do it for free, for ideological reasons!)

Quote:
And we eat that way because we are free to do so.

No, some of us don't eat that way at all. Bill Gates, for instance, doesn't eat that way because he is actually free from having to eat ****. He has the freedom to eat nothing but inconvenient food because inconvenient food isn't inconvenient for him.
And those of us who do eat that way don't do so because we are free. We do so because they are poor, ignorant and/or stressed out from having to work too much.
But that is exactly what makes them excellent customers for ******, poisonous 'convenient foods'.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:31 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
And a lot of us have ended up obese and otherwise unhealthy. Thus the subject of the thread..

Should we be free to make our children fat also?

We as well as our children didn't end up obese because we were free to make the choice between being slim and being fat. And when a lot of us don't end up obese, it's because we have an actual choice, we have other options.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:41 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The low and nonfat dairy thing is because the sugar industry convinced people that fat was unhealthy, even though it isn't.

Yes, indeed! That's what capitalist industry does:

How the Sugar Industry Shifte Blame to Fat (NYT, Sep. 13, 2016)

Quote:
In 2016, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) Internal Medicine found that the sugar industry tightly controlled the messages around the health consequences of sugars and fats. After scientists realized in the 1950s that sugar intake was associated with heart disease, the sugar industry began a group called the Sugar Research Foundation to disprove those claims.
The Sugar Research Foundation funded studies that blamed fat for heart disease and downplayed the role of sugar. Those studies were published in major medical journals. But the fact that the sugar industry was financing these studies was never disclosed. With science supposedly on their side, the sugar industry continued to push the negative associations of fat while downplaying the health risk of sugar.
“Our findings suggest the industry-sponsored a research program in the 1960s and 1970s that successfully cast doubt about the hazards of [sugar] while promoting fat as the dietary culprit in [heart disease],” study authors wrote in JAMA Internal Medicine.
The Low-Fat Lie: How the Sugar Lobby Painted Fat as America’s Dietary Enemy (Sweet Defeat, July 26, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:48 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
We are all born lactose tolerant. The the switch to intolerance on weaning only took place where there was no dairy source.

That's the euphemistic way of putting it!

The switch to lactose tolerance only took place when those who couldn't digest lactose died - either because they died before they had children or because nobody was there to take care of their children because the parents had died.
Evolution(,) bitch!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:59 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The muscle on a cow's body wasn't designed with my nutritional needs in mind any more than the milk was (in fact less so), it's qualities are what they are to help the cow to move around.

Think of it as evolution after the invention of people!
Plants make delicious fruits for animals to eat, thus spreading the (often) indigestible seeds/kernels.
Cows make delicious muscles, thus giving people the incentive to breed them.
It's how cows tricked homo sapiens into spreading their offspring to every corner of the world.
Those bloody selfish cow genes!

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:59 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, indeed! That's what capitalist industry does:
It's called regulatory capture. If the argument for the dangers of fat had only been coming from the sugar industry, people would have recognized the conflict of interest behind that claim and would have been more skeptical of it. But the fact that the claim was laundered by government is what gave it an undeserved air of legitimate authority. This wasn't fundamentally a capitalism problem, it was fundamentally a government problem. And the bigger government gets, the worse regulatory capture gets.

If you think that socialist governments wouldn't do even worse things, I've got a bridge to sell you.
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Old 15th November 2019, 12:06 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's called regulatory capture. If the argument for the dangers of fat had only been coming from the sugar industry, people would have recognized the conflict of interest behind that claim and would have been more skeptical of it. But the fact that the claim was laundered by government is what gave it an undeserved air of legitimate authority. This wasn't fundamentally a capitalism problem, it was fundamentally a government problem. And the bigger government gets, the worse regulatory capture gets.

If you think that socialist governments wouldn't do even worse things, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Which is why industry paid government employees (scientists) to come up with scientific fraud. I guess the sugar industry did a lot of lobbying, too, in order to persuade politicians to vote in their favor.
It's what industry does ... See more elaborate argument in post 209.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 15th November 2019, 12:16 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That's the euphemistic way of putting it!

The switch to lactose tolerance only took place when those who couldn't digest lactose died - either because they died before they had children or because nobody was there to take care of their children because the parents had died.
Evolution(,) bitch!
Evolution doesn't require that you die. It actually suffices for there to be a differential rate of reproduction. If lactose intolerant parents have, say, 2 children for every 3 children by the lactose tolerant, then lactose tolerance genes will crowd own lactose intolerant ones over time. And lactose intolerance hasn't disappeared, it's still the majority globally. But lactose tolerance has exploded from just a few initiating mutations to a significant fraction of the human population in just the last 10,000 years.
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Old 15th November 2019, 12:17 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Which is why industry paid government employees (scientists) to come up with scientific fraud. I guess the sugar industry did a lot of lobbying, too, in order to persuade politicians to vote in their favor.
It's what industry does ... See more elaborate argument in post 209.
You seem to think that if government owns industry, it will then behave. That isn't the case.
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Old 15th November 2019, 12:34 PM   #218
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No, I don't seem to think so. Didn't you just out me as a commie?!
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...3#post12891783
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 12:39 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Evolution doesn't require that you die. It actually suffices for there to be a differential rate of reproduction. If lactose intolerant parents have, say, 2 children for every 3 children by the lactose tolerant, then lactose tolerance genes will crowd own lactose intolerant ones over time. And lactose intolerance hasn't disappeared, it's still the majority globally. But lactose tolerance has exploded from just a few initiating mutations to a significant fraction of the human population in just the last 10,000 years.

Only a very small change is necessary, in this case. It's almost on the level of epigenetics. The gene for lactose tolerance is already there: The vast majority of children are lactose tolerant. Evolution just has to stop the off switch from switching off.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 15th November 2019, 02:35 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have no idea what is meant by, "Never go full commie." Wasn't it meant to be, 'Never go left of alt-right'?!
It's a pop culture reference.
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:02 PM   #221
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I really like what dann and Ziggurat have to say about the food industry..

I know full fat milk and milk products can be part of a healthful diet..

I was just trying to be dramatic with the " cows milk was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on calves .. " line..

My apologies..
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:47 PM   #222
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I wonder of the "healthy food" fad is making people look into the studies?

Years ago, I had to look for it. Now, without looking for it, I'm seeing more cites like "It's not the fat, it's the carbs".

There are even "Insulin Resistance Support Groups". And THAT is getting to the root of obesity.
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Old 15th November 2019, 06:48 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Think of it as evolution after the invention of people!
Plants make delicious fruits for animals to eat, thus spreading the (often) indigestible seeds/kernels.
Cows make delicious muscles, thus giving people the incentive to breed them.
It's how cows tricked homo sapiens into spreading their offspring to every corner of the world.
Those bloody selfish cow genes!

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Yeah, I was actually thinking that I should include a caveat that we have selected cows for the taste (and obviously growth rate) of their meat. So they are to some extent "designed" for our consumption. But to the extent that that's true, it's also true of cow's milk.

While some plant products coevolved with animals for various reasons (as you mention), most didn't, and many foods evolved with defences to avoid being eaten.

Though, again, there has been artificial selection in all of our plant foods as well.
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Old 15th November 2019, 07:39 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I wonder of the "healthy food" fad is making people look into the studies?

Years ago, I had to look for it. Now, without looking for it, I'm seeing more cites like "It's not the fat, it's the carbs".

There are even "Insulin Resistance Support Groups". And THAT is getting to the root of obesity.
Fat can be healthy and lots of sugar certainly seems bad for you, but I don't buy into the carbs = bad thing either. I mean, statistically speaking the Japanese are among the longest lived populations, and rice consumption is basically universal. Rice is almost nothing but carbs.
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Old 15th November 2019, 10:54 PM   #225
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Are we actually sure about lactose tolerance being an evolutionary advantage?

Or rather, is it a recent localised cultural genetic adaptation, due to lack of nutritional variety in certain countries? (ie Northern Europe)

We DO know that consuming cow's milk isn't normal or healthy for the majority of human adults, and have known that it causes "dyspepsia" or digestive problems for over 100 years.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-4757-0620-8_1
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:07 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Or rather, is it a recent localised cultural genetic adaptation, due to lack of nutritional variety in certain countries? (ie Northern Europe)

Fairly recent, yes. And nowadays based on ethnicity rather than location: Worldwide prevalence of lactose intolerance in recent populations (Wikimedia)

It's the reason why Nazis love milk!
The Troubling Link Between Milk And Racism (HuffPost, Dec. 6, 2018)
Too bad for lactose intolerant Nazis!

But in spite of this: Can the world quench China’s bottomless thirst for milk? (Guardian)
(I had five Chinese staying at my place for one night in August, and I was surprised when they went out the next morning and bought milk chocolate as gifts for their family before returning to Beijing.)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 16th November 2019 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:22 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Fat can be healthy and lots of sugar certainly seems bad for you, but I don't buy into the carbs = bad thing either. I mean, statistically speaking the Japanese are among the longest lived populations, and rice consumption is basically universal. Rice is almost nothing but carbs.

Carbs aren't bad for everybody, but it depends on your blood sugar level: The Blood Sugar Diet
If you're diabetic or pre-diabetic, you should avoid carbs ... and probably exercise more. Casebro knows that (and why) he should avoid carbs.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:41 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I was just trying to be dramatic with the " cows milk was designed to put ~2 pounds a day on calves .. " line..

Not just dramatic but also slightly ... creationist.
It is very easy to slip into using 'intelligent design language' when we are talking about evolution. (And as a kind of metaphor, it does no harm.)

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, I was actually thinking that I should include a caveat that we have selected cows for the taste (and obviously growth rate) of their meat. So they are to some extent "designed" for our consumption. But to the extent that that's true, it's also true of cow's milk.

Yes, Homo sapiens can't claim to have invented milk, but they sure fooled around with quantities and percentages (of fat, for instance).

Quote:
While some plant products coevolved with animals for various reasons (as you mention), most didn't, and many foods evolved with defences to avoid being eaten.

Though, again, there has been artificial selection in all of our plant foods as well.

The "to" is another example of 'intelligent design language': They evolved with traits that protected them from being eaten (as did we). They survived and adapted. But there was no intentionality.

My own joke about the intentionality of cows was inspired by Douglas Adams:

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th November 2019, 01:50 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Are we actually sure about lactose tolerance being an evolutionary advantage?

As long as there are a lot of cows* around, it probably is:

Milk and dairy consumption and incidence of cardiovascular diseases and all-cause mortality: dose-response meta-analysis of prospective cohort studies. (PubMed, Jan. 2011)

Effects of Full-Fat and Fermented Dairy Products on Cardiometabolic Disease: Food Is More Than the Sum of Its Parts (Advances in Nutrition, Sep. 13, 2019)

Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence (Food&Nutrition Research, Nov. 22, 2016)

Introduction and Executive Summary of the Supplement, Role of Milk and Dairy Products in Health and Prevention of Noncommunicable Chronic Diseases: A Series of Systematic Reviews. (PubMed, May, 2019)

This one surprised me!
Association of Dietary Fiber and Yogurt Consumption With Lung Cancer Risk (JAMA Oncology, Oct. 24, 2019)

And one about trans fats (unlike saturated fats!!!!):
NYC’s trans-fat ban has actually started saving lives (NY Post, April 12, 2017)


* And before proper vaccinations, cows also used to protect people from small pox!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th November 2019, 03:48 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The "to" is another example of 'intelligent design language': They evolved with traits that protected them from being eaten (as did we). They survived and adapted. But there was no intentionality.
Sure, I'm under no misapprehension of intentionality in evolution, the "to" is just a shorthand for the process you describe. As is the "designed" language I used, though in that case at least I was careful enough to use scare quotes.

When there's a mutual understanding of that shorthand I think it does make these things easier to discuss, but it's certainly true that it can be, and is, misinterpreted.
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Old 16th November 2019, 04:01 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Are we actually sure about lactose tolerance being an evolutionary advantage?
Well, it certainly was in those places where it evolved.

Quote:
Or rather, is it a recent localised cultural genetic adaptation, due to lack of nutritional variety in certain countries? (ie Northern Europe)
If it evolved due to that lack of nutritional variety, that would still make it an advantage for the people among whom it evolved.

But as I understand it lactose tolerance evolved in every group of people who herd cattle, except for some who use the milk to produce low-lactose foods like cheese, where it wasn't necessary (they could get the same nutrition from the milk without the lactose).

Quote:
We DO know that consuming cow's milk isn't normal or healthy for the majority of human adults, and have known that it causes "dyspepsia" or digestive problems for over 100 years.
I'm not sure that we know the highlighted to be true.
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Old 16th November 2019, 04:56 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not sure that we know the highlighted to be true.

The majority of people in the world are lactose intolerant. I think that was the point.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th November 2019, 05:07 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Fat can be healthy and lots of sugar certainly seems bad for you, but I don't buy into the carbs = bad thing either. I mean, statistically speaking the Japanese are among the longest lived populations, and rice consumption is basically universal. Rice is almost nothing but carbs.

Sugar is nothing but carbs. Rice is much more, and that may be the point:

Quote:
“The observed associations suggest that the obesity rate is low in countries that eat rice as a staple food,” said Professor Tomoko Imai, who led the study. Giving possible reasons why rice can help, Prof Imai said rice was low in fat, adding: “It’s possible that the fibre, nutrients and plant compounds found in whole grains may increase feelings of fullness and prevent overeating.
Japanese study suggests that eating more rice could help fight obesity (Today Online, May 2, 2019)

These articles are also interesting:

Quote:
The average person in Japan consumes over 200 fewer calories per day than the average American. Food prices are substantially higher in Japan, but the traditional Japanese dietary habits, although changing, are also healthier. The Japanese are also far more physically active than Americans, but not because they do more planned physical exercise. They walk more as part of their daily lives.
Why Is the Obesity Rate So Low in Japan and High in the U.S.? Some Possible Economic Explanations (Research in Agricultural & Applied Economics, 2006)

Quote:
(Random note: Perhaps you think that Americans already know perfectly well which foods are healthy and which aren't. Well, you should wake up and smell the yogurt. Most Americans I know think yogurt is healthy, but most low-fat yogurt that you buy at the grocery store is packed with so much sugar that a single cup contains the entire Japanese recommended daily allowance of 20 grams!)
Big Government, Small Bellies: What Japan Can Teach Us About Fighting Fat (Atlantic, Sep. 6, 2012)

Quote:
Meat - particularly red meat - can be very expensive in Japan. As a results, almost every single meal you eat is bulked out with rice and heart-friendly green vegetables, like bean sprouts, seaweed and onions. This handy dose of fibre and vegetables increases the sheer quantity of food with very little calories. When meat is added to a dish, it's most likely to be a form of seafood like raw salmon or lean protein like chicken.
10 reasons why the Japanese have avoided the obesity crisis) (Honey Coach)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 16th November 2019 at 05:18 AM.
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Old 16th November 2019, 05:35 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The majority of people in the world are lactose intolerant. I think that was the point.
Yeah, but is it actually unhealthy for lactose intolerant people to consume milk, at least in moderation? That's what I'm not sure about.
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Old 16th November 2019, 06:37 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Yeah, but is it actually unhealthy for lactose intolerant people to consume milk, at least in moderation? That's what I'm not sure about.

WebMD says:

Quote:
The condition isn't harmful, but it can be uncomfortable and may be embarrassing.
Lactose Intolerance - Cause, Symptoms, Diagnosis, Treatment
And the condition of "uncomfortable" and "embarrassing" is described more specifically as:

Quote:
Upset stomach
Bloating
Gas
Diarrhea
Vomiting (sometimes)
Flatulence (farting)

So it definitely hurts you (and maybe your surroundings) even though it seems as if there are no long-term, harmful effects.
And you can get lactose-free milk ...
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:19 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Are we actually sure about lactose tolerance being an evolutionary advantage?

Or rather, is it a recent localised cultural genetic adaptation, due to lack of nutritional variety in certain countries? (ie Northern Europe)
You say that like those are different statements. But they aren't. They're the same thing. Of course lactose tolerance as an adult won't be an advantage if you don't have a source of lactose as an adult. But if you do (and a number of human populations did), then it is. And it's not just a matter of variety, in early human history ANY reliable source of calories and protein was an advantage.

Quote:
We DO know that consuming cow's milk isn't normal or healthy for the majority of human adults
Sure, because the majority of human adults are lactose intolerant.
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Old 16th November 2019, 08:30 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Sugar is nothing but carbs. Rice is much more, and that may be the point:
Sugars are all carbohydrates, but carbohydrates are not all sugar. Rice has basically no sugar.

The other nutritional components of rice probably don't have much effect. White rice actually has very little fiber, much less than wheat flour. Wild rice has more than white rice, but the Japanese eat mostly white rice.

Physical activity plus other eating habits (Japanese eat lots of fish) probably play a big role as well, so I'm not suggesting that just adding rice to your existing diet and lifestyle will improve anything. I'm not suggesting low carb is bad either. My only point is that a healthy lifestyle doesn't have to use a low carb diet.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:07 AM   #238
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The Japanese seem to have a trick to make their white rice healthier:

Quote:
In most Japanese supermarkets you can find little bags likes this.
These contain several small bags which you can simply add to your rice when cooking it with a rice cooker. They contain a variety of grains that will help to increase the fiber content of your rice and also add other important nutrients like vitamins and minerals. This helps you to turn simple white rice into a more nutritious meal. There are a lot of different variations available so you can choose whichever fits your personal needs and taste best.
Adding these grains will also change how your rice tastes so it might not work for all meals but I prefer the grain rice over regular plain rice over all.
Getting enough fiber in Japan (City-Cost, Oct. 28, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:09 AM   #239
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Actually, cheese consumption may be at the root of the French Paradox.

I bumped up my cheese consumption a while ago, for the probiotic effect. And I realized that the 'constipation effect' (to coin a phrase) was good for what I think is Irritable Bowel Syndrome. Some foods made me empty my bowel. NOT diarrhea, just empty it all out. I figured insoluble fiber was the culprit. My guess is that the CE slowed my transit time, and I absorb more nutrients. High fiber? Put some cheese on it.
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Old 16th November 2019, 10:23 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
......

This one surprised me!
Association of Dietary Fiber and Yogurt Consumption With Lung Cancer Risk (JAMA Oncology, Oct. 24, 2019)

.....
"hazard ratio, 0.83 (95% CI, 0.76-0.91) for the highest vs lowest quintile of fiber intake; and hazard ratio, 0.81 (95% CI, 0.76-0.87) for high vs no yogurt consumption. "

Funny how thjey compared extreme quintiles, NOT each to the norm.


Check my math: If norm is 1.00, and they are comparing highest vs lowest quintiles, and we guess the worst quintile is 1.2, then .83 x 1.2 = .996. Umm, no advantage to extreme comsumption, but a disadvantage to the dearrth of yogurt?
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