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Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

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Old 28th November 2019, 05:11 PM   #281
mgidm86
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My Dad weighed around 250 for most of the past twenty years.

His wife, my step-Mom, died a year and a half ago. Not the best relationship it turned out, so he pretty-immediately sought to find some girlfriend(s?) and enjoy the rest of his life. He's 76.

He lost all the weight and weighs less than me now. I'm maybe 180. He's 6' tall.

Disclaimer: my Dad is a freak of nature when it comes to will-power. He was motivated to lose the weight and he did. That's what he does. He has a girlfriend now and is having the time of his life. He quit smoking decades ago in one shot.

He's not poor, far from it, but he wasn't when he was fat either. His border line diabetes is gone, his knee isn't bothering him as much, and he hikes up mountain trails with his GF. Like Mt. McKinley, not all the way. And he's been having sex, something he hadn't done for many years I think.

Motivation, baby. You need a good enough reason. Most people have one.
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:34 PM   #282
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Great success story..
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Old 28th November 2019, 06:52 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My Dad weighed around 250 for most of the past twenty years.

His wife, my step-Mom, died a year and a half ago. Not the best relationship it turned out, so he pretty-immediately sought to find some girlfriend(s?) and enjoy the rest of his life. He's 76.

He lost all the weight and weighs less than me now. I'm maybe 180. He's 6' tall.

Disclaimer: my Dad is a freak of nature when it comes to will-power. He was motivated to lose the weight and he did. That's what he does. He has a girlfriend now and is having the time of his life. He quit smoking decades ago in one shot.

He's not poor, far from it, but he wasn't when he was fat either. His border line diabetes is gone, his knee isn't bothering him as much, and he hikes up mountain trails with his GF. Like Mt. McKinley, not all the way. And he's been having sex, something he hadn't done for many years I think.

Motivation, baby. You need a good enough reason. Most people have one.
Motivation has gotten loads of heart attach victims to lose weight in the first six months after the heart attack. And 90% put it back on.

You Dad, in a bad relationship, might have had an eating disorder. Relationship solved, eating disorder solved.

And I knew a guy thaty out on 80lbs, what with lying in bed with a broken neck for 6 months. Neck better, staying fat. So he had his jaw wired shut. Lost the weight as fast as he put it on, unwired the jaw, never had a weight prob again.

Neither of our anecdotes are the norm.
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Old 28th November 2019, 11:47 PM   #284
dann
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Most people have one.

No, if your anecdotes were the truth about everybody else, then most people don't have one.
Obesity in the USA: Adult female obesity in the USA (Wikipedia)
Obesity in the USA: Adult male obesity in the USA (Wikipedia)

You probably didn't watch the video about the food deserts of Memphis, "We have blamed the individual for so long, and it's not the individual's fault," but the food deserts, i.e. the poverty, appear to have helped give Memphis this title:

Quote:
Fattest Cities in the U.S.
1. McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX
2. Shreveport-Bossier City, LA
3. Memphis, TN-MS-AR

4. Jackson, MS
5. Mobile, AL
6. Tulsa, OK
7. Knoxville, TN
8. Toledo, OH
9. Baton Rouge, LA
10. Augusta-Richmond County, GA-SC
Memphis named 3rd fattest metro area in America (WMC, March 25, 2019)

And if we take a closer look at the winner, McAllen-Edinburg-Mission, TX:

Quote:
It has the lowest per capita income of the 276 MSAs within the 50 states at $9,899. Its median household income is also the lowest within the 50 states at $24,863. In a survey done in over 190 metropolitan areas it had the highest obesity rate of residents at 38.8 percent
McAllen–Edinburg–Mission metropolitan area: Demographics (Wikipedia)

Funny coincidence, isn't it?!
And how about No. 2 on the list, Shreveport-Bossier City, LA?

Quote:
In Bossier Parish there are 47,458 with 46% living in poverty.
Poverty Number Climbing in Shreveport Bossier (710Keel, Jan. 9, 2019)
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Old 1st December 2019, 11:48 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Motivation has gotten loads of heart attach victims to lose weight in the first six months after the heart attack. And 90% put it back on.

You Dad, in a bad relationship, might have had an eating disorder. Relationship solved, eating disorder solved.

And I knew a guy thaty out on 80lbs, what with lying in bed with a broken neck for 6 months. Neck better, staying fat. So he had his jaw wired shut. Lost the weight as fast as he put it on, unwired the jaw, never had a weight prob again.

Neither of our anecdotes are the norm.
The main reason I have to dismiss willpower and genetics is that I can't grasp a mechanism for how we could have become 'unmotivated' or 'genetically evolved' so much in three generations.

The better explanation is that our willpower and genetics are probably the same, but the environment is different. This is why we see obesity rates fluctuate in real world experiments where the environment is manipulated instead of the individuals' willpower or genetics.

This just came across my desk today: [State-Specific Prevalence of Obesity Among Children Aged 2–4 Years Enrolled in the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children — United States, 2010–2016] - quick summary: the federal government changed the contents of WIC food packages and educational collateral with the effect being that childhood obesity declined in the target population by about 13% while there was meanwhile an increase of obesity in the comparison populations.

I don't think there's one single environmental factor to point to, but a lot of them fall under the general category of "There is profit in selling more calories, so commerce has spent a century investing billions of dollars exploring related physiology and psychology to figure out how to do that, this is the result."
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Old 2nd December 2019, 01:15 AM   #286
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I've looked at a fair bit of stuff on food deserts and city design. I remember one great TED talk on it, and I follow people who work on e.g. Healthy Streets, or Smart Cities.

An unhealthy suburb is one that is little (or now big) boxes on a hillside, all in cul-de-sacs that you have to drive in and out of to get to the supermarket, to the park, to school.
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Old 21st December 2019, 06:42 AM   #287
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I fear that the fat-shamers will love this one: Study suggests obesity associated with greater greenhouse gas emissions (EurekaAlert, Dec. 20, 2019)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd December 2019, 06:01 AM   #288
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Patriot Act with Hasan Minhaj: How America Is Causing Global Obesity (Dec. 23, 2019)

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd December 2019, 03:14 PM   #289
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Error when tried to play..
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Old 23rd December 2019, 05:26 PM   #290
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Sorry.

How America Is Causing Global Obesity (Dec. 23, 2019)

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd December 2019, 05:50 PM   #291
mgidm86
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Motivation has gotten loads of heart attach victims to lose weight in the first six months after the heart attack. And 90% put it back on.

You Dad, in a bad relationship, might have had an eating disorder. Relationship solved, eating disorder solved.

And I knew a guy thaty out on 80lbs, what with lying in bed with a broken neck for 6 months. Neck better, staying fat. So he had his jaw wired shut. Lost the weight as fast as he put it on, unwired the jaw, never had a weight prob again.

Neither of our anecdotes are the norm.

No he had a big belly for a long time. He likes to eat. He worked hard too as a journeyman sheet metal worker. The cliche used to be the rich fat man, now it's the poor fat man.

I don't understand one of the posts above about everyone not having the motivation.

I'm motivated when I see my belly in the mirror, or my scale is reading too high, or I worry about how extra weight can affect my back problems, or about how uncomfortable my fat step-dad is, or when I go to the doctor and my blood work is good, or when a girl looks at me and smiles. How much motivation does a person need?

What motivates people to get and stay fat? If I can't stay in good shape I am 100% to blame and that is what motivates me to act. Tell people things aren't their fault and you kill the motivation.

People do what they want to do and most of the time it's their own fault.

I work at a pot store doing graphics, but I also work parking lot security at night for a few hours.

I talk to the people who come in. A few are homeless and living in their cars. One guy can't afford to register his car and it needs a headlight. And this same guy, rather than taking care of his car or his situation, comes here and buys pot once or twice every week.

Nice enough guy, seems normal. He's riding an electric scooter now to get his weed and leaves his car wherever.

What he does is his own business, I don't care. But that shows me that people don't always do what's best for them even when they are living in the freaking street!

The guy isn't a heroin addict, it's weed, yet here he comes spending the little money he has on it.

This makes it very difficult for someone like me (also poor btw) to want to help at all. I live in the state with the highest poverty and homeless rate in the nation - California. It's also probably the highest taxed, and you want more from me? To help people like him?

And now I'm expected to get behind the idea of a Basic Universal Income?

It's funny to me that some people use the excuse of being poor for their weight problem. I'm not fat because I can't afford to buy fattening food, beer and soda. I mean just look at all the obese homeless people! Ya I don't see them either.

People here are saying that obesity is a new trend. So is laziness and the want for more "socialist" programs. I blame, in part, parenting. People are getting used to blaming others for their problems and it is perfectly acceptable these days to do so.

Most people can take control of their weight, or their smoking, or their alcoholism, but they choose not to. And the knowledge that I am in control keeps me in line as well and gives me hope. If you tell people it isn't their fault guess what happens? They do nothing, because you just told them they can't!

I was raised to not expect people to come to my rescue. It's a good way to think. Maybe they will sometimes, but in the end it's all up to me. People make too many excuses, most of them are their own worst enemy.

Some say it's all the fat food in the poor neighborhoods, I say bull. The trend started when this society started turning into one full of blameless and helpless victims. It's so bad that even your doctor won't tell you you're fat anymore.
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Old 25th December 2019, 06:37 AM   #292
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Are you familiar with Frank Grimes?

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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I work at a pot store doing graphics, but I also work parking lot security at night for a few hours.
(...)
People make too many excuses, most of them are their own worst enemy.

I think that you are your now worst enemy. In order to get by, you need two jobs, and instead of getting angry and doing something about that condition, you prefer to blame people who are even worse off than you and resort to drugs as their way of putting up with their miserable existence.
Why would you want the weed-smoking homeless guy to straighten up, stop buying weed from your employer and take care of his car and his situation - and apply for your parking-lot-security job? You wouldn't actually, would you?! He already serves the wonderful role of scapegoat - for you and other conservatives (like Frank Grimes).
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 25th December 2019, 09:44 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Are you familiar with Frank Grimes?

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I think that you are your now worst enemy. In order to get by, you need two jobs, and instead of getting angry and doing something about that condition, you prefer to blame people who are even worse off than you and resort to drugs as their way of putting up with their miserable existence.
I'm with you on the last part of that sentence (people use drugs as a way to get through a tough life and I really don't think they should be judged for that. The solution is to try to fix the things that lead to the drug use, not to judge the drug use). But I'm not sure what him getting angry is supposed to do about his condition? It seems to me that he's doing his best to get by. Maybe he should be taking night classes? Or spending more of his free time improving his tech skills? Just not clear what exactly you're proposing.

Quote:
Why would you want the weed-smoking homeless guy to straighten up, stop buying weed from your employer and take care of his car and his situation - and apply for your parking-lot-security job? You wouldn't actually, would you?! He already serves the wonderful role of scapegoat - for you and other conservatives (like Frank Grimes).
I don't think it works that way. More productive people in society is generally a good thing. While the effects aren't spread evenly and it could turn out that that homeless guy ends up with his job, on the average I'd expect a (very small) net benefit to him if that homeless guy improved his life and became more productive. I have a similar view about immigration and education as well: importing talent from abroad tends to be a net gain. Improving talent locally (through subsidized education) also tends to be a net gain. There are probably some losers in both cases, but in general these are good things.
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Old 29th December 2019, 06:53 PM   #294
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The global obesity epidemic is caused by the availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs..

The challenge is to get people to care about this..
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Old 5th January 2020, 02:43 AM   #295
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You seem to forget about the availability of affordable, low-caloric, high-nutrition (processed or not) food stuffs and of appealing exercise opportunities. (Some of us burn calories in fun ways. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't.


News:

The end of fat shaming?
In the USA, people with normal weight are about to become the minority.
Quote:
Results The findings from our approach suggest with high predictive accuracy that by 2030 nearly 1 in 2 adults will have obesity (48.9%; 95% confidence interval [CI], 47.7 to 50.1), and the prevalence will be higher than 50% in 29 states and not below 35% in any state. Nearly 1 in 4 adults is projected to have severe obesity by 2030 (24.2%; 95% CI, 22.9 to 25.5), and the prevalence will be higher than 25% in 25 states. We predict that, nationally, severe obesity is likely to become the most common BMI category among women (27.6%; 95% CI, 26.1 to 29.2), non-Hispanic black adults (31.7%; 95% CI, 29.9 to 33.4), and low-income adults (31.7%; 95% CI, 30.2 to 33.2).
Projected U.S. State-Level Prevalence of Adult Obesity and Severe Obesity (NEJM, Dec. 19, 2019)

Intermittent fasting seems to be very healthy:
Quote:
Evidence is accumulating that eating in a 6-hour period and fasting for 18 hours can trigger a metabolic switch from glucose-based to ketone-based energy, with increased stress resistance, increased longevity, and a decreased incidence of diseases, including cancer and obesity.
Effects of Intermittent Fasting on Health, Aging, and Disease(NEJM, Dec. 26, 2019)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th January 2020, 04:58 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to forget about the availability of affordable, low-caloric, high-nutrition (processed or not) food stuffs and of appealing exercise opportunities. (Some of us burn calories in fun ways. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't.
Not sure what you think I have forgotten.

Are you saying nutritionally dense food that is relatively low in calories is generally not as affordable as the higher calorie less nutritional foods?
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Old 5th January 2020, 05:29 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not sure what you think I have forgotten.

Are you saying nutritionally dense food that is relatively low in calories is generally not as affordable as the higher calorie less nutritional foods?
I think the point isn’t the availability of high calorie nutrient poor food versus low calorie high nutrient food today, but the availability of high calorie nutrient poor food now compared to high calorie nutrient poor food in the past. People like to eat cake. Cake is cheap now. It didn’t used to be.
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Old 6th January 2020, 02:50 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Not sure what you think I have forgotten.

Are you saying nutritionally dense food that is relatively low in calories is generally not as affordable as the higher calorie less nutritional foods?

I am saying that the global obesity epidemic isn't caused by the availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs. The availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs doesn't make Bill Gates fat. It doesn't make me fat. It makes those people fat who can't afford or for other reasons don't have access to proper food.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think the point isn’t the availability of high calorie nutrient poor food versus low calorie high nutrient food today, but the availability of high calorie nutrient poor food now compared to high calorie nutrient poor food in the past. People like to eat cake. Cake is cheap now. It didn’t used to be.

I like cake. The kind of cake I like isn't cheap. It also doesn't have a shelf life of years like the cake you can find even in food deserts. Its expiration date isn't July 1, 2021.
The availability of ****** food doesn't make people fat. It doesn't make people eat ****** food. The people who have an actual, convenient, affordable (i.e. they can afford it!) choice don't get fat. Those who don't do!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th January 2020, 02:59 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by dann View Post


I like cake. The kind of cake I like isn't cheap. It also doesn't have a shelf life of years like the cake you can find even in food deserts. Its expiration date isn't July 1, 2021.
The availability of ****** food doesn't make people fat. It doesn't make people eat ****** food. The people who have an actual, convenient, affordable (i.e. they can afford it!) choice don't get fat. Those who don't do!
To be clear: you think that the difference in rates of obesity now from say 50 years ago is down to less access to convenient, affordable, healthy food?
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Old 6th January 2020, 03:52 AM   #300
dann
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Do I???
To be clear: What makes you think so?!


PS I wrote an answer to your post 294 yesterday, but the ****** wifi & internet here in the Canaries seems to have eaten it.
I'll rewrite it later today - if the wifi god lets me.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 6th January 2020, 03:59 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do I???
To be clear: What makes you think so?!
Well, I thought we were discussing the rising rate of obesity and it's causes. Someone suggested that the cause of that was an increasing availability of low cost high calorie foods (that people enjoy).

You replied: "I am saying that the global obesity epidemic isn't caused by the availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs. The availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs doesn't make Bill Gates fat. It doesn't make me fat. It makes those people fat who can't afford or for other reasons don't have access to proper food."

And: "The availability of ****** food doesn't make people fat. It doesn't make people eat ****** food. The people who have an actual, convenient, affordable (i.e. they can afford it!) choice don't get fat. Those who don't do!"

So you reject the idea that rising rates of obesity are caused by an increase in cheap high calorie high palatability foods. Instead you say that "the people who have an acutal, convenient, affordable choice don't get fat. Those who don't do!".

I took this to mean that the increase in lack of that choise has been the causal factor in rising rates of obesity. If not, I'm not seeing what it has to do with this discussion.
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Old 6th January 2020, 06:44 AM   #302
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But IS the population getting too poor to pay for "good food"?

I don't think it's the $$$$, I think it's the ready availability of those cheap carbs. Plus the "insatiable appetite gene" that has stood us well all through evolution.

Any way, what's your fix? Food ration cards? Big Brother not allowing high caloric purchases?
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Old 6th January 2020, 09:24 AM   #303
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You seem to overlook the fact that "ready availability of those cheap carbs" isn't what makes poor people different from Bill Gates - or even me. Those cheap carbs are even more available for people with more money - as is everything else that money can buy.
And unless you have some kind of documentation to prove that the "insatiable appetite gene" is more prevalent in poverty-stricken neighborhoods than elsewhere, it seems to be a pretty bad argument.
I also don't see how "ration cards" would make healthy, tasty food more available to poor people. Do you??!
When it's a well-known fact that there is a significant correlation between poverty and obesity, is the idea that poor people should be prevented from buying the ****** food that they can afford and have access to really the best solution you can come up with?


Let me go into some of the details of mgidm86's latest post, who for some reason chose to ignore the video completely, How America Is Causing Global Obesity:

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm motivated when I see my belly in the mirror, or my scale is reading too high, or I worry about how extra weight can affect my back problems, or about how uncomfortable my fat step-dad is, or when I go to the doctor and my blood work is good, or when a girl looks at me and smiles. How much motivation does a person need?

What motivates people to get and stay fat? If I can't stay in good shape I am 100% to blame and that is what motivates me to act. Tell people things aren't their fault and you kill the motivation.

The basic error is the idea that obese people get fat because they are motivated to get fat and are therefore also to blame for being fat. It's the same idea you hear from conservatives and libertarians as explanation for almost everything: 'You're poor? I guess you lack the motivation to be rich!' The Frank Grimes ideology.
Or, in other words:
Quote:
People do what they want to do and most of the time it's their own fault.

They eat ****** food because that's their life's dream, and when it makes them fat, it's because they want to be fat.

Quote:
I work at a pot store doing graphics, but I also work parking lot security at night for a few hours.

I talk to the people who come in. A few are homeless and living in their cars. One guy can't afford to register his car and it needs a headlight. And this same guy, rather than taking care of his car or his situation, comes here and buys pot once or twice every week.

Nice enough guy, seems normal. He's riding an electric scooter now to get his weed and leaves his car wherever.

What he does is his own business, I don't care. But that shows me that people don't always do what's best for them even when they are living in the freaking street!

The guy isn't a heroin addict, it's weed, yet here he comes spending the little money he has on it.

I don't smoke weed, but even so, I still know that I could be high for months on the amount of money that it usually requires to pay the bill from the workshop whenever my motorcycle needs some kind of repair, which, by the way, is not the reason why I don't smoke weed. I would be able to do both: pay for having my motorcycle repaired and for the weed.
Your guy obviously isn't! His personal finances require that he make a choice between the two things: having his car fixed or getting high. And I'm pretty sure that if you'd seen him drink a beer, you would have had the same comment: 'See! The guy is having a beer! He lacks the motivation to have his car fixed.'
And it's the same argument you hear whenever poor people have the pathetic choice between proper food and a flatscreen TV: 'They choose to buy low-quality food!'
Some of us don't have to make that choice! We can have an 80 inch 4k flatscreen, cakes with whipped cream and fresh strawberries, have our motorcycles or cars repaired, and even buy weed if we feel like it.
And yet, the people who don't have the freedom to have all those things are always blamed for making the wrong choice.
So what is the next trick in the book?

Quote:
This makes it very difficult for someone like me (also poor btw) to want to help at all. I live in the state with the highest poverty and homeless rate in the nation - California. It's also probably the highest taxed, and you want more from me? To help people like him?

Who exactly asked you "to help people like him"? My recommendation would be to join forces with him and get rid of the conditions that make one of you have two jobs and the other one live in his broken-down car, smoking weeed to forget about his situation.

Quote:
And now I'm expected to get behind the idea of a Basic Universal Income?

Are you? Who expects you to do so?

Quote:
It's funny to me that some people use the excuse of being poor for their weight problem. I'm not fat because I can't afford to buy fattening food, beer and soda. I mean just look at all the obese homeless people! Ya I don't see them either.

It's funny to me that I've actually never heard anybody use the excuse of being poor for their weight problem. Probably because poverty shaming is much more prevalent that fat shaming. (If poverty made people slim, slim shaming would be in vogue!)

Quote:
People here are saying that obesity is a new trend. So is laziness and the want for more "socialist" programs. I blame, in part, parenting. People are getting used to blaming others for their problems and it is perfectly acceptable these days to do so.

You seem to be used to blaming poor people like homeless weed guy for your problems and it also seems to be perfectly acceptable these days to do so.

Quote:
Most people can take control of their weight, or their smoking, or their alcoholism, but they choose not to. And the knowledge that I am in control keeps me in line as well and gives me hope. If you tell people it isn't their fault guess what happens? They do nothing, because you just told them they can't!

Aaaaand we're back with the motivational speech: Fat, smoking alcoholics choose to be so unlike you, who are in control.
But one other group is also to blame for the fat, smoking alcoholics: People who allegedly told them that it isn't their fault. So we now have two reasons why people are fat, smoking alcoholics: 1) That's their life choice, that's what they want to be, and: 2) Other people have persuaded them that it's not their own choice, that it's not their fault!

Quote:
I was raised to not expect people to come to my rescue. It's a good way to think. Maybe they will sometimes, but in the end it's all up to me. People make too many excuses, most of them are their own worst enemy.

I was raised by a psychopath, so I didn't exactly expect people to come to my rescue. Which is a bad way to think. I actually think that you are your own worst enemy.

Quote:
Some say it's all the fat food in the poor neighborhoods, I say bull. The trend started when this society started turning into one full of blameless and helpless victims. It's so bad that even your doctor won't tell you you're fat anymore.

Doctors tell people that they're fat all the time. However, doctors can't prescribe money to buy healthy food and neighborhoods and facilities that encourage people to exercise. Very few doctors reach the conclusion that something must be wrong with the conditions that make people fat and sick. And even fewer realize that the logical thing to do is to do something about the conditions that make people sick.
This is why I admire the choice made by Dr. Guevara. He knew how to save many more lives than by being a mere MD:

Quote:
Almost immediately after pulling themselves ashore they were ambushed by the dictator’s army. All but a handful of the guerrillas were killed. It was during this battle that Che made a crucial decision when, while retreating, he chose to pick up a box of ammunition instead of his medical bag. He later described the situation, “Perhaps this was the first time I was confronted with the real-life dilemma of having to choose between my devotion to medicine and my duty as a revolutionary soldier. Lying at my feet were a knapsack full of medicine and a box of ammunition. They were too heavy for me to carry both of them. I grabbed the box of ammunition, leaving the medicine behind.”
Allow me to explain
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th January 2020, 09:47 AM   #304
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't think it works that way. More productive people in society is generally a good thing.

Why is it a good thing? Good for what?

Quote:
While the effects aren't spread evenly and it could turn out that that homeless guy ends up with his job, on the average I'd expect a (very small) net benefit to him if that homeless guy improved his life and became more productive.

What are "the effects"? Are you talking about trickle-down economics?
I don't know about homeless guy, but after being completely stressed out earlier this year, I'm about to retire, formally, and I'm pretty sure that it will improve my life considerably to become less productive!

Quote:
I have a similar view about immigration and education as well: importing talent from abroad tends to be a net gain. Improving talent locally (through subsidized education) also tends to be a net gain. There are probably some losers in both cases, but in general these are good things.

Rich nations like Denmark and the UK seem to disagree with you. They find it cheaper to import talent from abroad, e.g. Poland, rather than improve it locally. The losers are the poor countries that lose the doctors whose improved talents they'd subsidized.
In general, I think that's a bad thing. And it's even worse when it's used against poor countries by imperialist nations, for instance when they're abroad to fight Ebola:
Quote:
“In Sierra Leone, we had an Ebola treatment center, where we worked next to the US non-profit organization Partners in Health. We worked closely as professionals and doctors, exchanging scientific reports every morning after our shifts. We would send each other emails and we made friends, as the photos show. We planted a tree of life, a small mango tree right outside the center. We would tie a colored ribbon to it every time we saved a patient.
“This happened despite the fact the United States offers an express visa program to Cuban medical doctors who wish to leave their teams and emigrate to the United States, where the vast majority aren’t allowed to practice medicine. They do it only to try and weaken us, but every medical doctor who joined the Ebola campaign returned to Cuba.
Cuban Doctors: The Soldiers Who Defeated Ebola
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 6th January 2020 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 6th January 2020, 10:57 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I like cake. The kind of cake I like isn't cheap. It also doesn't have a shelf life of years like the cake you can find even in food deserts.
"Food desert" research is largely garbage.
https://review.chicagobooth.edu/mark...y-be-all-wrong
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Old 6th January 2020, 12:40 PM   #306
dann
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Yes, you would think so, wouldn't you?
However, your article is largely garbage:
"Americans (!!!) are willing to travel long distances to shop (!), the researchers say, arguing that the notion of a food desert may (!) therefore (!) be misleading. They cite data from the 2009 National Household Travel Survey suggesting that even if the closest supermarket isn’t nearby, people (!!!) travel to shop at it."

Yes, Americans who have a car, can pay for gas and have the time to do so tend to be willing to travel long distances to shop, but we're not talking shopping, we're talking food shopping. And it's hardly surprising that even if the closest supermarket isn’t nearby, people with cars, money for gas and time on their hands still travel to shop at it. What else are they supposed to do?!
Those who don't will have to resort to the quickie mart.

And then we hear stories like this one:

"When a (!) supermarket entered a food desert, consumers stopped traveling to farther supermarkets, according to the research. About 80 percent of the increase in spending share consisted of sales diverted from other large grocery stores."

Which means, I assume, that 20% of the increase didn't consist of sales diverted from other large grocery stores. The moral that the 'researchers' are trying to make us buy into is obvious: Poor people buy ****** food because they just love ****** food: "people’s shopping habits are driven by their food and taste preferences.
The researchers tested whether location drives preferences, to understand whether living in a food desert could cause residents to prefer certain types of foods, perhaps those that are most shelf stable. They ruled this out, finding instead a striking relationship between food preference and income."


No surprise here - food deserts tend to be situated in poor neighborhoods - so what did they find out? (Notice the biased wording!!!):

"They find that richer households tend to place a higher value on healthy foods and nutrients, while poorer households tend to value unhealthy ones. High-income households (making more than $70,000 a year) are willing to pay almost double for vegetables and nearly three times more for fruit, the researchers estimate. By contrast, low-income households (making less than $25,000 a year) are willing to pay more for sugar and saturated fats."

It's really an amazing discovery that poor people aren't willing to pay three times more for fruit, isn't it?!
But they are allegedly willing to pay more for sugar and fat! More? How much more? More than what exactly? Are they willing to pay more for the bag of chips in the quickie mart than it would cost in the supermarket because that's where they go? I don't know about the 'research', but the article doesn't tell us!

And yet the "researchers" still manage to "determine" this:

"What if everyone had the same access to healthy food, with the same prices? In that case, the nutrition gap would have shrunk by 9 percent, the researchers determine."

So there actually is a nutrition gap, after all, and it does have something to do with (lack of) access to healthy food?!

I think that you should have started here instead: Food Access Research Atlas (ers.usda.gov)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 6th January 2020, 12:43 PM   #307
dann
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
... but after being completely stressed out earlier this year ...
Should have been: ... but after being completely stressed out earlier last year ...
I haven't quite arrived in 2020 yet.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th January 2020, 04:26 PM   #308
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Nothing you have said argues against my claim..

Quote:
The global obesity epidemic is caused by the availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs..
What is it, that I have seem to have forgotten about?
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Old 6th January 2020, 06:30 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, Americans who have a car, can pay for gas and have the time to do so tend to be willing to travel long distances to shop, but we're not talking shopping, we're talking food shopping. And it's hardly surprising that even if the closest supermarket isn’t nearby, people with cars, money for gas and time on their hands still travel to shop at it. What else are they supposed to do?!
Most Americans, even many of the poor, have a car, can pay for gas, and have the time to go shopping for groceries. Many Americans without a car still have access to public transportation, and buses frequently service grocery stores. Food desert measurements doesn't actually indicate how hard it is for people to access grocery stores, because the very definition isn't even set up to measure that.

And the data show that grocery stores opening up in food deserts don't change consumption patterns. To the extent that people in food deserts are making "bad" food purchasing decisions, it isn't primarily because they live in a food desert. Correlation, NOT causation.

Quote:
And then we hear stories like this one:
It's not a "story", it's data. Do you know the difference?

Quote:
So there actually is a nutrition gap,
I didn't dispute that.

Quote:
and it does have something to do with (lack of) access to healthy food?!
The data indicates that cost is a factor, but not the primary one. And "food deserts" are not much of a factor at all.

Quote:
I think that you should have started here instead: Food Access Research Atlas (ers.usda.gov)
Your link doesn't demonstrate anything. Nobody is disputing that these things defined as "food deserts" exist. But they aren't responsible for obesity, and that link doesn't actually provide any evidence that they are.
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Old 7th January 2020, 10:49 AM   #310
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Ya know, there is also a connection of economic standing to IQ score. I think the case can be made that Stupidity has a factor in food choice.

Nah, it's psychological/mind/brain/genetics. Even the healthy food stores pour racks of snacks at the check out lines. It's a matter of succor for the masses.
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Old 7th January 2020, 02:44 PM   #311
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Intelligence has nothing to do with parents teaching their children that cupcakes and Kool Aid are food staples...

Otherwise intelligent children get roped into nonsense with devastating consequences..
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Old 7th January 2020, 05:31 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Why is it a good thing? Good for what?
Because almost everything I have comes from other people's productivity. The food I eat, the apartment I live in, the water I drink, the transportation I use, the ability to communicate, I have all of those things due other people producing them.

So what is it good for? Human wellbeing.




Quote:
What are "the effects"? Are you talking about trickle-down economics?
I don't know about homeless guy, but after being completely stressed out earlier this year, I'm about to retire, formally, and I'm pretty sure that it will improve my life considerably to become less productive!
Sure, because you can survive on the product of your accumulated productivity. That's cool.




Quote:
Rich nations like Denmark and the UK seem to disagree with you. They find it cheaper to import talent from abroad, e.g. Poland, rather than improve it locally. The losers are the poor countries that lose the doctors whose improved talents they'd subsidized.
Are you claiming that Denmark and the UK don't have public eductation systems? Because if not, then no, they don't disagree with me.

And immigration is another route to the same good as education (which I said in the post you quoted): increasing the productivity of your society.

Quote:
In general, I think that's a bad thing. And it's even worse when it's used against poor countries by imperialist nations, for instance when they're abroad to fight Ebola:
Why is it a bad thing if productive members of poor nations move to rich nations, but not a good thing if an unproductive member of a society becomes more productive?

ETA: The thing you are claiming that those poor nations have lost is exactly the thing that is gained when the homeless person gets a job. Why is that thing valuable in the one case but not in the other?
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Old 7th January 2020, 05:36 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to overlook the fact that "ready availability of those cheap carbs" isn't what makes poor people different from Bill Gates - or even me.
That's not the thing that anyone is attempting to explain. The "obesity epidemic" isn't defined by the fact that there are some people who are fat and others who aren't. It's defined by the fact that rates of obesity have been increasing.

If we as a society want to address that fact, we should attempt to understand it's causes.
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Old 7th January 2020, 07:55 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
That's not the thing that anyone is attempting to explain. The "obesity epidemic" isn't defined by the fact that there are some people who are fat and others who aren't. It's defined by the fact that rates of obesity have been increasing.
...
And so has personal income world wide. Which fact puts a dent in teh theory that "poor people are fat because the can't afford good food".

But it would bolster the theory that we all want to eat more. Income goes up, obesity goes up.
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Old 7th January 2020, 10:09 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And so has personal income world wide. Which fact puts a dent in teh theory that "poor people are fat because the can't afford good food".

But it would bolster the theory that we all want to eat more. Income goes up, obesity goes up.
Does income corelate with obesity?

Dann has been pointing out that obesity (at least in some places) correlates with poverty, so it's not as simple as the story you are telling either.
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:11 AM   #316
dann
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Nothing you have said argues against my claim..

Quote:
The global obesity epidemic is caused by the availability of cheap, high caloric, low nutrition, processed food stuffs..
What is it, that I have seem to have forgotten about?

That cheap, high caloric, low nutrition processed food stuffs are even more available to wealthy people, and yet poor people are much more likely to get obese.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:17 AM   #317
dann
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Ya know, there is also a connection of economic standing to IQ score.

Yes, obviously. Rich people can afford to give their children not only better food but also better education.

Quote:
I think the case can be made that Stupidity has a factor in food choice.

I wouldn't have expected you to advocate the idea that fat people are stupid.

Quote:
Nah, it's psychological/mind/brain/genetics. Even the healthy food stores pour racks of snacks at the check out lines. It's a matter of succor for the masses.

Your healthy food stores are different from mine, apparently.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:44 AM   #318
dann
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Most Americans, even many of the poor, have a car, can pay for gas, and have the time to go shopping for groceries. Many Americans without a car still have access to public transportation, and buses frequently service grocery stores. Food desert measurements doesn't actually indicate how hard it is for people to access grocery stores, because the very definition isn't even set up to measure that.

In your attempt to show that it's not the case, you only manage to make it more obvious that healthy food is harder to come by for some (poor) people than others (the rich). You seem to think that my claim was that it is utterly impossible for poor people to get hold of health(ier) food. It never was. But when poor people are confronted with the choice between ****** food and healthy food, they probably aren't able to pay three times the price for vegetables the same way rich people are. If they have strenuous jobs, they probably don't have the energy to spend time in public transportation to get to a grocery store instead of the quickie mart.

Quote:
And the data show that grocery stores opening up in food deserts don't change consumption patterns. To the extent that people in food deserts are making "bad" food purchasing decisions, it isn't primarily because they live in a food desert. Correlation, NOT causation.

This was your so-called "data", my quotation from the article: "When a (!) supermarket entered a food desert ..."
That's a story! Nobody claimed that a story isn't (a kind of) data.

Quote:
It's not a "story", it's data. Do you know the difference?

Yes, I know the difference.

Quote:
I didn't dispute that.

The data indicates that cost is a factor, but not the primary one. And "food deserts" are not much of a factor at all.

Now we're getting somewhere! At least you now recognize that cost (= poverty) as well as food deserts are factors!

Quote:
Your link doesn't demonstrate anything. Nobody is disputing that these things defined as "food deserts" exist. But they aren't responsible for obesity, and that link doesn't actually provide any evidence that they are.

So in your opinion, they aren't responsible for obesity, they are just factors. OK, I can see how important that difference is to you.
I'm all for more education about food, by the way, in particular for children whose parents can't do much to teach their children about healthy nutrition because they can't afford to buy it anyway. The reason why it is so should also be part of education about nutrition.
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/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:46 AM   #319
dann
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,193
Full-fat versus low-fat dairy:

Quote:
Emerging evidence shows that the consumption of full-fat dairy foods has a neutral or inverse association with adverse cardiometabolic health outcomes, including atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, and associated risk factors. Thus, although low-fat dairy is a practical, practice-based recommendation, its superiority compared with full-fat dairy is not obviously supported by results from recent prospective cohort studies or intervention trials.
Potential Cardiometabolic Health Benefits of Full-Fat Dairy: The Evidence Base (Advances in Nutrition, Jan. 6, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 8th January 2020, 08:49 AM   #320
dann
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,193
Did nobody watch this - in spite of its relevance in a thread about The Global Obesity Epidemic?

Originally Posted by dann View Post
How America Is Causing Global Obesity (Dec. 23, 2019)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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