IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags diet issues , dietary science , obesity

Reply
Old 8th January 2020, 03:27 PM   #321
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Did nobody watch this - in spite of its relevance in a thread about The Global Obesity Epidemic?

I skimmed through it, and don't have any problem with the premise. What's the big surprise?
In fact, it emphasizes my claim about cheap caloric dense. nutritionally deficient food being at the root of the problem.

In fact, don't poor people rely on fast food a lot?

The emergence of unprecedented obesity in China, and probably all of Asia for that matter, can mostly be attributed to the increase in American fast food restaurants and sugar drinks..
It's capitalism at its best.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 8th January 2020 at 03:38 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2020, 03:34 PM   #322
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Originally Posted by dann View Post
That cheap, high caloric, low nutrition processed food stuffs are even more available to wealthy people, and yet poor people are much more likely to get obese.
Why do you think i have forgotten that?

it may effect the poor in a disproportionate manner, but why was this not more of a problem 60 years ago?

I don't think that you can show that average income Americans are not a big part of the obesity epidemic?

The very wealthy are excluded from a lot of problems that plague lower income people.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 8th January 2020 at 03:36 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th January 2020, 07:09 PM   #323
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,791
Originally Posted by dann View Post
In your attempt to show that it's not the case, you only manage to make it more obvious that healthy food is harder to come by for some (poor) people than others (the rich).
For a few. But those few aren't driving the overall trend, and the actual data makes that pretty clear.

Quote:
You seem to think that my claim was that it is utterly impossible for poor people to get hold of health(ier) food.
No, that isn't what I think.

Quote:
But when poor people are confronted with the choice between ****** food and healthy food, they probably aren't able to pay three times the price for vegetables the same way rich people are.
Frozen vegetables are pretty cheap. In general, the poor don't avoid them because they can't afford them.

Quote:
If they have strenuous jobs, they probably don't have the energy to spend time in public transportation to get to a grocery store instead of the quickie mart.
That's not what the data says.

Quote:
Now we're getting somewhere! At least you now recognize that cost (= poverty) as well as food deserts are factors!
No. Cost is a small factor (I never said it wasn't), food deserts are a negligible factor.

Quote:
I'm all for more education about food, by the way, in particular for children whose parents can't do much to teach their children about healthy nutrition because they can't afford to buy it anyway. The reason why it is so should also be part of education about nutrition.
I've got no problem in principle with food education. But given how badly the government ****** up dietary recommendations for decades and still hasn't got its **** sorted out, I'm not holding my breath for actual progress on that front.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 02:14 PM   #324
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I skimmed through it, and don't have any problem with the premise. What's the big surprise?
In fact, it emphasizes my claim about cheap caloric dense. nutritionally deficient food being at the root of the problem.

In fact, don't poor people rely on fast food a lot?

Yes, they do! Unlike the rich, who can afford proper food - and pay the wages for people to shop and cook for them. If they don't choose to turn the whole thing into an enjoyable experience.

Quote:
The emergence of unprecedented obesity in China, and probably all of Asia for that matter, can mostly be attributed to the increase in American fast food restaurants and sugar drinks..
It's capitalism at its best.

No, obesity in Japan, for instance, is a small fraction of the U.S. level. Fast food in Japan tends to be healthy, non-fattening.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th January 2020 at 02:33 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 02:29 PM   #325
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Why do you think i have forgotten that?

it may effect the poor in a disproportionate manner, but why was this not more of a problem 60 years ago?

You mean back in the days when families could afford to have the wife be a homemaker, cooking, baking and cleaning? When you didn't have food deserts? When advertising agencies were busy telling people to smoke the right brand of cigarettes, instead of selling sirupy stuff to grown ups as well as children?

Quote:
I don't think that you can show that average income Americans are not a big part of the obesity epidemic?

No, I can't, and I won't. Why should I?! Average income Americans actually are a big part of the obesity epidemic. Average income Americans are poor!

Quote:
The very wealthy are excluded from a lot of problems that plague lower income people.

Yes, they are. One of them being obesity. Exactly my point.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 02:52 PM   #326
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
For a few. But those few aren't driving the overall trend, and the actual data makes that pretty clear.

I assume that it's still the same article you claim to be the data ...

Quote:
No, that isn't what I think.

But it's how you argue. As long as it's not impossible for poor people to get hold of healthy food, for instance by sacrificing their spare time to take bus rides to supermarkets, all the factors that are against their doing so don't count. For instance, that they don't have the money to consider buying vegetables at three times the price, then, no, that's got nothing to do with it at all, right?

Quote:
Frozen vegetables are pretty cheap. In general, the poor don't avoid them because they can't afford them.

I don't know about U.S. American prices of frozen vegetables, but I do know that it's not what they sell at the local gas station. Most supermarkets, however, do have them. At least, they do around here. It's what I usually buy, but I also have the time to cook them.

Quote:
That's not what the data says.

Same 'data' from the same article again, I suppose.

Quote:
No. Cost is a small factor (I never said it wasn't), food deserts are a negligible factor.

Yes, to you cost probably is a small factor. To the people who don't have the money, it isn't.

Quote:
I've got no problem in principle with food education. But given how badly the government ****** up dietary recommendations for decades and still hasn't got its **** sorted out, I'm not holding my breath for actual progress on that front.

Dietary recommendations don't really impact people's food 'choices' anyway, so no, you can't blame that one on the government. Advertising, for instance, impacts people much more than governmental dietary recommendations. (And it will take an awful lot of nutritional education and practical cooking classes to make up for that.)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 02:58 PM   #327
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
When people drown in the ocean, it's not because water has suddenly been made abundantly available to them. It's because they've been deprived of oxygen.
The people with the scuba gear don't have that problem.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 03:51 PM   #328
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 49,791
Originally Posted by dann View Post
But it's how you argue. As long as it's not impossible for poor people to get hold of healthy food, for instance by sacrificing their spare time to take bus rides to supermarkets, all the factors that are against their doing so don't count. For instance, that they don't have the money to consider buying vegetables at three times the price, then, no, that's got nothing to do with it at all, right?
More straw men. The fact that food deserts aren't relevant doesn't mean nothing is. And what's this "three times the price" stuff? Frozen vegetables are pretty cheap. Cost isn't what keeps poor people from buying them.

Quote:
I don't know about U.S. American prices of frozen vegetables, but I do know that it's not what they sell at the local gas station. Most supermarkets, however, do have them. At least, they do around here. It's what I usually buy, but I also have the time to cook them.
Most poor people still go shopping at grocery stores.

Quote:
Yes, to you cost probably is a small factor. To the people who don't have the money, it isn't.
Most poor people have money. Most poor people can afford to eat healthier. Cost isn't the main problem.

Quote:
Dietary recommendations don't really impact people's food 'choices' anyway, so no, you can't blame that one on the government.
That's manifestly not true. Few people follow guidelines exactly, but the general advice to eat low fat diets made a huge difference in American food consumption patterns, and for the worse.

Quote:
Advertising, for instance, impacts people much more than governmental dietary recommendations.
These are not unrelated. Advertisers can market stuff on the basis that it's low fat, for example, and that piggybacks off the authority of the government.

Quote:
(And it will take an awful lot of nutritional education and practical cooking classes to make up for that.)
Nutritional education is largely useless. It only works to get the most broad-stroke message through, and that's generally been the wrong message to begin with. But I think practical cooking classes would be a very good thing, especially for the poor. If you're cooking your own meals, it's much easier to eat both healthier and cheaper. The breakdown of the two-parent house has had a very negative impact on home cooking skills, and the poor have suffered the worst of that. So don't make the mistake of thinking I'm blaming poor people for the obesity epidemic, I'm not. But I don't agree with you about the significance of different factors. And if I'm right that food deserts aren't an important factor in this, then opening more grocery stores won't help it. That will just be wasted resources, and I'm assuming you don't want to waste resources on efforts which don't actually help.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th January 2020, 07:35 PM   #329
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,990
Actually, the FDA food pyramid of 1980 did make a difference in eating habits. Less fats, less red meat, more carbs. People ate what they were told. Obesity went up. And so did the use of that pyramid, it's all over the world now. And so is obesity.

65% of calories from carbs, and obesity climbs. It's not the fat, or the red meats, or the availability of high fat fast food. It's the carbs, sugar especially. All brought about by Ancel Keyes, who did not have any science behind his opinion that cholesterol is the culprit.

But there is hope, even the Heart Association has backed off on low fat diets. We need new dietary recommendations (lower carbs, lower sugar) and we need to get that word out.

OT: I just today learned what a "funnel plot" is. The subject I had surfed to was low salt diets. The funnel plot of the individual studies used in the meta study showed up the selection bias of the majority of the researchers. Maybe we have to look for funnel plots of meta studies?

And re: lowering salt- it lowers BP, but not end points. (treating numbers. anyone?) Because low salt diets also raise the Aldosterone, rennin, and adrenaline levels. FSM! I'm starting to lose faith in medicine all together.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 12:07 AM   #330
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 26,279
Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, obesity in Japan, for instance, is a small fraction of the U.S. level. Fast food in Japan tends to be healthy, non-fattening.
I agree with the first statement, but I'm not so sure about the second one. Japan has McDonalds and KFC too.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 01:33 AM   #331
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Yes, Japan has McD and KFC, too. Nobody claimed that they didn't. But they also have an awful lot of much better alternatives. Again: The point isn't that unhealthy food exists and is available. It is available to rich people, too.
By the way, apparently McD has recently added the so-called "Adult Cream Pie" to their Japanese menu!
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 01:48 AM   #332
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Actually, the FDA food pyramid of 1980 did make a difference in eating habits. Less fats, less red meat, more carbs. People ate what they were told. Obesity went up. And so did the use of that pyramid, it's all over the world now. And so is obesity.

It's possible that people "ate what they were told", but don't make the mistake of thinking that they did so because it's what they were told.

Quote:
65% of calories from carbs, and obesity climbs. It's not the fat, or the red meats, or the availability of high fat fast food. It's the carbs, sugar especially. All brought about by Ancel Keyes, who did not have any science behind his opinion that cholesterol is the culprit.

And Ancel Keys also managed to discredit people who actually knew what they were talking about: Ancel Keys: The sugar controversy (Wikipedia). (And he ignored Denmark! How is that even possible?!! )
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 04:30 PM   #333
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It's possible that people "ate what they were told", but don't make the mistake of thinking that they did so because it's what they were told.
This is kinda exhausting, yeah. Carbs went up because people drank more Coke, which is the opposite of what the food guide recommended. Nobody cut down on fat. Fat intake per day actually went up during this period.

Macro ratios adjusted a tiny bit almost exactly the same, but we have gradually increased total calories per day. More fat, more caloric carbs, more protein. More ethanol.

And the non-caloric carbs declined. That's soluble and non-soluble fibre. We eat fewer veggies, per calorie consumed, than we did 50 years ago.

Overall caloric increase for men, average energy intake increased from 2,450 kcals to 2,618 kcals (p<0.01), and for women, from 1,542 kcals to 1,877 kcals (p<0.01). This is per NHANES studies (there is a series starting in 1971, I did not include the current NHANES). Or, to put this another way, over the timeframe in discussion, a male has increased annual calories by 61 thousand calories, women by 122 thousand calories. Per year.

A good comprehensive reference on grams and calories fat intake increase during this period is [[Ernst ND, Obarzanek E, Clark MB, Briefel RR, Brown CD, Donato K. Cardiovascular health risks related to overweight. J Am Diet Assoc 1997;97(suppl):S47--S51.]]

A good reference for carb intake increase during this period is [[Chanmugam P, Guthrie JF, Cecilio S, Morton JF, Basiotis PP, Anand R. Did fat intake in the United States really decline between 1989--1991 and 1994--1996? J Am Diet Assoc 2003;103:867--72.]]


I can't disagree more with a description of the western diet during this period as 'eating what we were told [by the experts]' - what we did was eat more of everything, and washed it down with even more soft drinks, as if the guidelines didn't exist at all.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 04:33 PM   #334
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by dann View Post
By the way, apparently McD has recently added the so-called "Adult Cream Pie" to their Japanese menu!
Given that this is Japan, I'm genuinely concerned the ingredients include college girls' underpants.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 04:43 PM   #335
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But there is hope, even the Heart Association has backed off on low fat diets.
I'm assuming you mean the AHA?

Which doesn't mean much.. the American Heart Association is not a medical organization, and academics consider them a joke. They are essentially a business that sells approval stamps to healthwash what is otherwise junkfood. Their endorsement of Honey Nut Cheerios a few years ago exposed their business model as essentially unrelated to health science and they are still doing PR damage control.

A key problem is identification of credible sources of information, unfortunately. The AHA ain't one of them.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 05:18 PM   #336
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Actually, the FDA food pyramid of 1980 did make a difference in eating habits. Less fats, less red meat, more carbs. People ate what they were told. Obesity went up.
Actually, no. Westerners eat more fat, more red meat, more carbs, more everything - at least if we're comparing vs the publication of the original fda guidlines 1971. The caloric increase alone is quite satisfactory to explain increased obesity.


Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And so did the use of that pyramid, it's all over the world now. And so is obesity.
Lots of changes globally, not the least of which is increased consumption of everything due to improved standards of living pretty much everywhere. Malnutrition has plummeted for the same reason. Per capita calorie consumption has drifted upward for generations.

Here's a sample chart: [Caloric supply by region]. In a previous post I cited a US increase of about 10% since 1971, have a look at China! Caloric intake almost doubled in that timeframe.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 05:37 PM   #337
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,990
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Actually, no. Westerners eat more fat, more red meat, more carbs, more everything - at least if we're comparing vs the publication of the original fda guidlines 1971. The caloric increase alone is quite satisfactory to explain increased obesity.




Lots of changes globally, not the least of which is increased consumption of everything due to improved standards of living pretty much everywhere. Malnutrition has plummeted for the same reason. Per capita calorie consumption has drifted upward for generations.

Here's a sample chart: [Caloric supply by region]. In a previous post I cited a US increase of about 10% since 1971, have a look at China! Caloric intake almost doubled in that timeframe.
And meantime life spans went up along with BMI. Hmmmm....

In the Vegetarian/ heart disease/stroke thread in Soc Iss, the huge study comparison people of Vs vs Omnivores... The Vs ate no red meat, were lower BMI, lower sodium, no animal fats- and don't live any longer. Looks like they do everything thing right, all at once. Which gives me doubts about all the rest of the "medical studies".

I'm going to go have a Big Mac while I think about it.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

Last edited by casebro; 14th January 2020 at 05:47 PM.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 06:19 PM   #338
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Au contraire

CDC Data Show U.S. Life Expectancy Continues to Decline
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th January 2020, 06:41 PM   #339
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And meantime life spans went up along with BMI. Hmmmm....
Not horizontally, and not for what's called 'quality years'. Meaning, not if we control for advancements in medical technology over time, which extend life but not necessarily improve quality of life.

Just as an example, I have the same cancer gene as my biological mother. She died in 1968 at the age of 17. I got ill at the age of 50 and am in remission. My vegan diet may have given me more quality years, and advancements in technology have increased survival rates. We need multiple regression analyses to isolate the effects of diet alone.



Originally Posted by casebro View Post
In the Vegetarian/ heart disease/stroke thread in Soc Iss, the huge study comparison people of Vs vs Omnivores... The Vs ate no red meat, were lower BMI, lower sodium, no animal fats- and don't live any longer. Looks like they do everything thing right, all at once. Which gives me doubts about all the rest of the "medical studies".
I'd have to read the thread to comment accurately, but if it's the Nurse Study, there are reasons it has poor generalization.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th January 2020, 06:33 AM   #340
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,990
Interesting author, Nina Teicholz. Books, blog, You-tube. She is an investigative journalist, looking into facts and looking for biases.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th March 2020, 02:56 PM   #341
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Brand new consensus against fat-shaming:

Quote:
Explaining the gap between scientific evidence, and a conventional narrative of obesity built around unproven assumptions and misconceptions might help to reduce weight bias, and its harmful effects. A concerted effort of all stakeholders is required to promote educational, regulatory, and legal initiatives designed to prevent weight stigma and discrimination.
Joint international consensus statement for ending stigma of obesity (Nature, March 4, 2020)

And an old study:

Quote:
Conclusions: Our results indicate that rather than encouraging people to lose weight, weight discrimination promotes weight gain and the onset of obesity. Implementing effective interventions to combat weight stigma and discrimination at the population level could reduce the burden of obesity.
Perceived weight discrimination and changes in weight, waist circumference, and weight status (PubMed, 2014)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th March 2020, 05:02 PM   #342
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
I don't think weight discrimination is necessarily fat shaming..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th April 2020, 05:49 AM   #343
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Low carb/low fat and mortality; more complicated than sometimes assumed:

Quote:
In this study, overall low-carbohydrate-diet and low-fat-diet scores were not associated with total mortality. Unhealthy low-carbohydrate-diet and low-fat-diet scores were associated with higher total mortality, whereas [hilite]healthy[/highlight] low-carbohydrate-diet and low-fat-diet scores were associated with lower total mortality. These findings suggest that the associations of low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets with mortality may depend on the quality and food sources of macronutrients.
Association of Low-Carbohydrate and Low-Fat Diets With Mortality Among US Adults (JAMA, Jan. 21, 2020)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th April 2020, 03:07 PM   #344
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,990
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Low carb/low fat and mortality; more complicated than sometimes assumed:
" In this cohort study of 37 233 US adults 20 years or older, overall low-carbohydrate and low-fat diets were not associated with total mortality,.... "

The comparisons made were between "bad carbs vs good carbs" and "bad fats vs good fats".

I don't have access to the full paper. Good/bad fats are defined by saturatedness. How did they define good/bad carbs?

I suspect some deep data mining by vegetarian authors wearing bright lamps to find these correlations.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2020, 02:15 AM   #345
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
I also don't have access, but I think it's probably a question of distinguishing between food groups. For instance, fatty dairy products don't seem to be a problem. Fatty fish seem to be health food, too. They actually appear to be healthier than low-fat ones. In the case of carbs, there's a difference between eating fruit and vegetables like potatoes and getting your carbs from sweets and cakes. And whole-grain appears to be healthier than ordinary flour.
But it would be nice to know the criteria used to distinguish between good and bad ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2020, 07:04 AM   #346
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,990
And my personal scapegoat is Hydrogenated Vegetable Oils. I suspect them to be the only deadly fat/oil, and that they get lumped in with saturated fats, which gives sat fat a bad name. It may be the trans fats. Up to 45% historically. And the data used in this study goes back to those days. In fact it is based in America where we still have HVO with up to 5% trans. (less than 1/2 gram per serving is announced as "zero grams", it's rounded down) So I fry in "Healthy Fat", beef shortening. Naturally 1/2% Trans.

And the study in discussion is odd because the conclusions of both wings, fat and carb, recommend vegetable proteins. Yet the big study of vegetarianism done in England showed no advantage to vegetariansim. So I am suspecting bias.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2020, 10:44 AM   #347
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
I agree with you about Hydrogenated Vegetable Oils/trans fats. They have probably killed more people than the coronavirus will ever do. Fortunately, and at (too) long last, they are being phased out in most of the world.

I got the JAMA link here: Arne V. Astrup. He is not partisan in this question. In fact, vegetarians and vegans attack him all the time, i.e. whenever he shares a link to studies showing that meat and dairy aren't unhealthy.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2020, 04:24 PM   #348
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Originally Posted by dann View Post
..And whole-grain appears to be healthier than ordinary flour.
...
Too bad you won't see a study with no grains..

No one is going to fund such a study.

As close as you will get ( for now ) are the results that Virta is getting for reversing T2D..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th April 2020, 05:02 PM   #349
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,586
Originally Posted by dann View Post
I also don't have access, but I think it's probably a question of distinguishing between food groups. For instance, fatty dairy products don't seem to be a problem. Fatty fish seem to be health food, too. They actually appear to be healthier than low-fat ones. In the case of carbs, there's a difference between eating fruit and vegetables like potatoes and getting your carbs from sweets and cakes. And whole-grain appears to be healthier than ordinary flour.
But it would be nice to know the criteria used to distinguish between good and bad ...
T1 diabetic here, the dietitians tell me that you have simple carbs(which are absorbed quickly ie sugar) and complex carbs (which are absorbed much slower ie wholegrain). Complex carbs are good as they don't cause spikes in glucose levels, whereas simple carbs do.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th April 2020, 11:07 AM   #350
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,383
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And my personal scapegoat is Hydrogenated Vegetable Oils. I suspect them to be the only deadly fat/oil, and that they get lumped in with saturated fats, which gives sat fat a bad name. It may be the trans fats. Up to 45% historically. And the data used in this study goes back to those days. In fact it is based in America where we still have HVO with up to 5% trans. (less than 1/2 gram per serving is announced as "zero grams", it's rounded down) So I fry in "Healthy Fat", beef shortening. Naturally 1/2% Trans.

And the study in discussion is odd because the conclusions of both wings, fat and carb, recommend vegetable proteins. Yet the big study of vegetarianism done in England showed no advantage to vegetariansim. So I am suspecting bias.
At least it's now acknowledged that trans fats are bad. I remember that for a long time margarine companies whose products were loaded with trans fats were claiming to be healthier than butter. Turns out that wasn't close to being true.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st April 2020, 05:51 PM   #351
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Some Interesting observations from Amber O'Hearn, who has been successful in taking care of several health issues on an all meat diet.

Carbohydrate Restriction: too much or not enough?

Quote:
Weight loss is so badly misunderstood in the current world that most people confuse cause and effect. We are taught that weight is the result of a delicate balance between voluntary energy intake and voluntary energy expenditure. As it turns out, eating less and moving more doesn't fix obesity, because obesity is the result of biochemical energy regulation signals telling the body to store more fat and not use it for energy, regardless of how much energy is coming in and how much the body could technically spare. If your diet does not affect these signals the right way, your fat loss efforts will either not work at all or will work only temporarily.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2020, 08:20 AM   #352
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,093
This looks interesting

Mitochondrial uncoupler BAM15 reverses diet-induced obesity and insulin resistance in mice


Can be orally administered and increases cell respiration and calorie consumption even without increases in activity level and therefor can achieve weight loss without major changes in calorie intake. It also seems to protect against glucose intolerance and has strong antioxidant effects

In animal testing it's seems safe across a wide range of dosages. The only drawback seems to be a relatively short duration (half-life of ~2 hours)

Quote:
BAM15 decreases hepatic fat, decreases inflammatory lipids, and has strong antioxidant effects. Hyperinsulinemic-euglycemic clamp studies show that BAM15 improves insulin sensitivity in multiple tissue types. Collectively, these data demonstrate that pharmacologic mitochondrial uncoupling with BAM15 has powerful anti-obesity and insulin sensitizing effects without compromising lean mass or affecting food intake.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2020, 09:07 AM   #353
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 16,071
I think a large chunk of the US obesity epidemic can be explained by the diet yo-yo effect:

Americans diet more than any other nation, and are heavier than most.
Reason being that they don't try to permanently change their nutrient and lifestyle, but try to sprint their way to the desired weight, and then rebound and then some.

I would put money on obesity going down if we banned all advertising on diet and diet-realted products and services.
__________________
“You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”
-Anne Lamott
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2020, 01:10 PM   #354
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
You would lose that money. There is no doubt that keeping your weight down is more difficult than losing weight for just a short period of time. Nevertheless, losing weight fast, i.e. "to sprint their way to the desired weight," seems to be better than the often recommended slow weight loss.
I don't know if google can make this article readable: Myte 3: ”Det er bedre at tabe sig langsomt – så holder man det bedre på sigt”
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th June 2020, 02:55 PM   #355
Kaylee
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,280
I would put money on obesity going down if there were more ready-to-eat or partially prepared products available in the grocery stores without added sugar and refined grains (which raises insulin response adn triggers larger appetites in most people). A lot of people don't have time to cook from scratch.

Last edited by Kaylee; 10th June 2020 at 02:55 PM. Reason: typo
Kaylee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th June 2020, 06:35 PM   #356
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
This looks interesting

Mitochondrial uncoupler BAM15 reverses diet-induced obesity and insulin resistance in mice


Can be orally administered and increases cell respiration and calorie consumption even without increases in activity level and therefor can achieve weight loss without major changes in calorie intake. It also seems to protect against glucose intolerance and has strong antioxidant effects

In animal testing it's seems safe across a wide range of dosages. The only drawback seems to be a relatively short duration (half-life of ~2 hours)
Right. A magic pill, instead of healthier eating habits.


Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think a large chunk of the US obesity epidemic can be explained by the diet yo-yo effect:

No. It can be explained by eating/drinking high caloric, nutrient deficient, easily obtained processed foods that dominate the advertising industry and grocery store shelves.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 08:25 AM   #357
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 15,184
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
I would put money on obesity going down if there were more ready-to-eat or partially prepared products available in the grocery stores without added sugar and refined grains (which raises insulin response adn triggers larger appetites in most people). A lot of people don't have time to cook from scratch.

I agree, but don't forget financial availability. In areas where people can afford to pay for healthy food, it is usually available. One such chain in Denmark is Irma. When I use Google Maps, I find more of them in affluent areas than in less affluent ones.

It is expensive to be healthy in a market economy. The **** that is easy to produce, distribute, and has a long shelf life is often the only food that poor people can afford.

It's no coincidence that trans fats had to be banned. Trans fats weren't ubiquitous before the ban due to consumer demand.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 10:05 AM   #358
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by Kaylee View Post
I would put money on obesity going down if there were more ready-to-eat or partially prepared products available in the grocery stores without added sugar and refined grains (which raises insulin response adn triggers larger appetites in most people). A lot of people don't have time to cook from scratch.
Unfortunately, there's a reason they're not on the shelf: people don't buy them.

Recall in 2010ish when Campbell's did a reformulation of their soup line to reduce salt? Good for health, big advertising campaign. Sales plummeted because... salt is tasty.

Sample ad:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE



I agree that prepackaged healthier meals would be great, and I think in principle consumers do too, but consumers have a dissonance between what they want and what they actually buy.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 10:08 AM   #359
blutoski
Penultimate Amazing
 
blutoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,416
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I think a large chunk of the US obesity epidemic can be explained by the diet yo-yo effect:

Americans diet more than any other nation, and are heavier than most.
Reason being that they don't try to permanently change their nutrient and lifestyle, but try to sprint their way to the desired weight, and then rebound and then some.

I would put money on obesity going down if we banned all advertising on diet and diet-realted products and services.
You're reversing cause and effect, I think.

Just to put it in perspective, countries like Mexico don't have much of a diet industry. And their obesity rates are higher. There's no yo-yo ing, just gain-gain, diabetes-diabetes.
__________________
"Sometimes it's better to light a flamethrower than curse the darkness." - Terry Pratchett
blutoski is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th June 2020, 02:07 PM   #360
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 17,478
Quote:
Recall in 2010ish when Campbell's did a reformulation of their soup line to reduce salt? Good for health, big advertising campaign. Sales plummeted because... salt is tasty.
The problem with that was that salt is really not the demon it has been made out to be for so many years.

It's Time to End the War on Salt

Quote:
This week a meta-analysis of seven studies involving a total of 6,250 subjects in the American Journal of Hypertension found no strong evidence that cutting salt intake reduces the risk for heart attacks, strokes or death in people with normal or high blood pressure.
It's one of those red herrings the medical establishment embraces instead of addressing the real nutrtional problems.

I'm sure the " Heart Healthy " endorsement sells a lot of animal feed pretending to be healthful breakfast food.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.