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Old 30th April 2021, 11:55 AM   #81
ahhell
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I'd say it's a fair assumption to presume we're talking about proportion, as the count in raw numbers is not really indicative.
I don't think it is. Survey's seem to show that folks greatly exaggerate the danger to black men from cops. I would not be surprised if most folks in the US think the absolute number of black men killed by cops is higher than the number of white men.
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Old 30th April 2021, 12:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
...even after adjusting for socio-economic factors police kill fewer white Americans then they do black Americans, but under no circumstances should be consider "less likely to be killed by police" a privilege.
I take your meaning here, it should be a right (not a privilege) not to be met with lethal force when you don't present a serious threat. That said, there is a camp within CRT (known as realists or materialists) which focuses tightly on underlying economic factors which differ significantly between ethnic groups, and they would likely object to adjusting those factors away in the process of social analysis. The other camp within CRT (known as idealists) focus more on problems of the mind, i.e. racist stereotypes, microaggressions, implicit bias, explicit prejudice, etc. and they are the ones who tend to run campus/corporate diversity training seminars.
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Old 30th April 2021, 01:17 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't think it is. Survey's seem to show that folks greatly exaggerate the danger to black men from cops.
Black Americans are ~2X as likely to live in poverty but ~3X more likely to be killed by police. Clearly some of the discrepancy in police killings comes from the fact people are more likely to kill poor people, but it can't explain the entire difference.
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Old 30th April 2021, 01:26 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Black Americans are ~2X as likely to live in poverty but ~3X more likely to be killed by police. Clearly some of the discrepancy in police killings comes from the fact people are more likely to kill poor people, but it can't explain the entire difference.
And black Americans are apparently 4X more likely to commit homicide according to the FBI crime statistics. Perhaps that accounts for the difference.
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Old 30th April 2021, 01:44 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
The category is a little too broad to know where to start.

I do have some issues with certain dogmas of CRT, such as that only white people can be racist.
That is pure BS.
I think this fuss is indeed another right wing dogwhistle,designed to shut down any discussion of racism in US History, but at tohe theory itself I have a deep skipticism of any theory in history.Inevitably advocates of a theory begin distorting and twisting the facts to fit the theroy.
I am a Joe Friday when ti comes t history:"Just the facts".
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Old 30th April 2021, 01:45 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I still don't have a solid opinion on CRT.

As far as school curriculum goes, kids barely learn math and English in the US as it is. Last I checked our educational system isn't very good compared with other countries.

I would prefer that our schools be less involoved with a child's life rather than more. Less indoctrination with history and poli sci and more learning how to think. People don't really learn how to think, they learn what to think.

While I'm at it, thirteen years in school is ridiculous. It's just babysitting. Let them take elective courses, perhaps outside of school if they want to learn other subjects.
Problem is this is not about the validity of CRT, but is an attempt to shut down any disucssion of racism in US History.
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Old 30th April 2021, 02:29 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Black Americans are ~2X as likely to live in poverty but ~3X more likely to be killed by police. Clearly some of the discrepancy in police killings comes from the fact people are more likely to kill poor people, but it can't explain the entire difference.
Do you have a source for that? All I could fine was data by ethnicity and separate data about economic status.

Like I said, I don't doubt it disproportionate, but folks really to have a distorted understanding of police violence and you did say, fewer white folks are shot by police not that they had a lower chance of being shot.
https://www.skeptic.com/research-cen...lection-study/

A majority of Americans think that there are 100 to 1000s of unarmed black men killed by police every year and depending on your politics, that black men are between 30 and 60% of those shot by police.
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Old 30th April 2021, 04:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
...those shot by police.
We're drifting from CRT to BLM here, but shouldn't we be focusing on people shot by police who didn't pose a specific level of threat? No one really complains when the police shoot someone like Elton Simpson or Ashli Babbitt, that's what they're paid to do.
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Old 30th April 2021, 10:26 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Do you have a source for that? All I could fine was data by ethnicity and separate data about economic status.

Like I said, I don't doubt it disproportionate, but folks really to have a distorted understanding of police violence and you did say, fewer white folks are shot by police not that they had a lower chance of being shot.
https://www.skeptic.com/research-cen...lection-study/

A majority of Americans think that there are 100 to 1000s of unarmed black men killed by police every year and depending on your politics, that black men are between 30 and 60% of those shot by police.
Factor into that a basic innumeracy--not really having a grasp of scale and proportion in general.
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Old 1st May 2021, 01:10 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I don't think this is necessarily true.

First I question the notion of racial privilege is questionable in the first place. Not being subject to the same levels of abuse should not be considered a privilege. IMO The typical white American doesn't enjoy greater privileged they are however more likely to enjoy the rights everyone is supposed to have.

Eg, even after adjusting for socio-economic factors police kill fewer white Americans then they do black Americans, but under no circumstances should be consider "less likely to be killed by police" a privilege. "Privileged" white Americans are still killed a far higher rates than Germans. In fact the rate at which American police kill white Americans is much more similar to the rate at which American police kill black Americans than it is the rate at which Germans police kill Germans. While black Americans are more like to be the victims, police shootings put everyone at risk and are not just a problem for African Americans.
It doesn't seem like you disagree with the concept or existence of white privilege, just with the term "privilege".
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Old 1st May 2021, 06:34 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across an article on CRT from the NYT archives:

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/07/17/a...ite-voice.html
Came across a slightly newer and less flattering portrait of CRT from The New Republic archives:

Quote:
During the past decade, an academic movement called critical race theory has gained increasing currency in the legal academy. Rejecting the achievements of the civil rights movement of the 1960s as epiphenomenal, critical race scholars argue that the dismantling of the apparatus of formal segregation failed to purge American society of its endemic racism, or to improve the social status of African Americans in discernible or lasting ways. The claim that these scholars make is not only political; it is also epistemological. Our perception of facts, they maintain, is contingent on our racially defined experiences; and, since the white majority can never transcend its racist perspectives, formally neutral laws will continue to fuel white domination. The prevailing mood is fatalism.
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Old 1st May 2021, 06:41 AM   #92
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Possibly of interest....
I had not heard of CRT until yesterday in this thread. However, on yesterday’s local news segment, they covered a large and contentious meeting of parents and teachers at one of the big local school districts, and one obviously irate parent was shouting....
“I do not want Critical Race Theory taught to my children!”

So... Evidently this is something that’s trickling down to mainstream education.....
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Old 1st May 2021, 06:44 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Eg, even after adjusting for socio-economic factors police kill fewer white Americans then they do black Americans, but under no circumstances should be consider "less likely to be killed by police" a privilege. "Privileged" white Americans are still killed a far higher rates than Germans. In fact the rate at which American police kill white Americans is much more similar to the rate at which American police kill black Americans than it is the rate at which Germans police kill Germans. While black Americans are more like to be the victims, police shootings put everyone at risk and are not just a problem for African Americans.
I think this is a function of the fact that Germans who interact with German police are less likely to be carrying firearms than Americans who interact with American police. It makes the police more nervous, when at any given moment the person they are interacting with might draw a hidden handgun and try to kill them (see, e.g., Bodycam Captures Moment Suspect Pulls Gun And Fires Shot at Deputy). Inevitably in a country of over 300 million, there will be some tragic mistakes made. But also, many of those killings are justified acts of self-defense, like the above.

Also the overall homicide rate in the US is about 5X higher than in Germany, so it wouldn't surprise me if police shootings are similarly higher.
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Old 1st May 2021, 06:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Possibly of interest....
I had not heard of CRT until yesterday in this thread. However, on yesterday’s local news segment, they covered a large and contentious meeting of parents and teachers at one of the big local school districts, and one obviously irate parent was shouting....
“I do not want Critical Race Theory taught to my children!”

So... Evidently this is something that’s trickling down to mainstream education.....
I think Trump complained about it in a speech last year, which is maybe why we are hearing more about it lately.
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Old 1st May 2021, 08:35 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Possibly of interest....
I had not heard of CRT until yesterday in this thread. However, on yesterday’s local news segment, they covered a large and contentious meeting of parents and teachers at one of the big local school districts, and one obviously irate parent was shouting....
“I do not want Critical Race Theory taught to my children!”

So... Evidently this is something that’s trickling down to mainstream education.....
"Lady, your kids are too stupid to be taught almost everything. They'll be lucky if they can read at a first grade level by the time they're teenagers. Sit down and shut up."

Sometimes I wonder if I should have pursued a career in education. Diplomatic truthtelling is one of my skills.
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Old 1st May 2021, 11:04 AM   #96
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Here’s a link to the news story, which is pretty in-depth:
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/ed...d-86f1ba3b6094
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Old 1st May 2021, 11:24 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Possibly of interest....
I had not heard of CRT until yesterday in this thread. However, on yesterday’s local news segment, they covered a large and contentious meeting of parents and teachers at one of the big local school districts, and one obviously irate parent was shouting....
“I do not want Critical Race Theory taught to my children!”

So... Evidently this is something that’s trickling down to mainstream education.....
Somebody put up a bunch of anti critical race theory signs in my town. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to hear that there are millions of white people who don't want their children to be exposed a different view than the one they want peddled to their children!
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Old 1st May 2021, 12:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
Here’s a link to the news story, which is pretty in-depth:
https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/ed...d-86f1ba3b6094
From the article.

Quote:
........one mom, who shared that her daughter tells her she doesn’t want to be white anymore.
From a CRT perspective, this is considered a win.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 06:02 AM   #99
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I think James misses the mark a bit here:

https://twitter.com/ConceptualJames/...49812847321089

Parts of the 1619 Project are rooted in CRT, but there isn't enough overlap to pretend they are teaching CRT when they teach from it.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 02:48 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
What does it mean to be older? What is age? What is time? And so on. You can go as far as you want.
Now that's just plain silly. We know what older means, it's a comparable measure of a quantified element. It's an objective measure. 25 is older than 2. There's nothing subjective about that.

Drilling down beyond that into the realm of "all ideas are abstract and everything is perception and it's all just theoretical" gets us right in the midst of solipsism.

And solipsism is straight up idiotic. Entertaining as a mental exercise perhaps, but in application it's dumb.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 02:53 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
There's maybe something there that we could discuss, but I don't know how deep into the weeds I want to go.

This is still an ongoing debate. Should "hate speech" be considered a crime, or is freedom of speech the higher good which we should protect?

In the past, the ACLU famously came down on the side of freedom of speech, even suing on behalf of neo-Nazis who wanted to hold a parade through a Jewish neighborhood. I'm not sure whether they still feel the same way anymore. And people still complain about "political correctness" to this day.
Nowadays... ACLU sues citizens who request public information from the prison system.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:08 PM   #102
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The real problem is that people shouting about CRT have their own very questionable historical theories to peddle. Pot calling the kettle black to use the old phrase.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:21 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across a slightly newer and less flattering portrait of CRT from The New Republic archives:
If that is an accurate description of CRT, then count me in the "CRT is a lot of garbage" school.
Calling the acheivmements of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's useless is just plain insane.
In the end, the problem with racism is you can only go so far fighting it with statute law. You can't change a person's feelings via law if you mean making him or her give them up. You can curb their behavior ..which is the main purpose behind criminal law...but you cant make them give up their prejudices via law. Which is why I find the CRT's idea that the Civil Rights Movement failed because it did not eliminate racial prejudice in America (which, if the above description is correct ) to be ridiculous. It's asking law to do something which law just cannot do.
Of course the right wing critics of CRT have their own theories which are just as, if not a lot more, wacky.
It's just another right wing talking point, having nothing to do with legitmate criticism of the very questionable and flawed CRT Theory.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:24 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The real problem is that people shouting about CRT have their own very questionable historical theories to peddle. Pot calling the kettle black to use the old phrase.
Do you happen to have some references for this?
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:24 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
Somebody put up a bunch of anti critical race theory signs in my town. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to hear that there are millions of white people who don't want their children to be exposed a different view than the one they want peddled to their children!
They probably do not even know what CRT is.
That being said, the more I find out about CRT the less I like it.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:28 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
They probably do not even know what CRT is.
That being said, the more I find out about CRT the less I like it.
I have confusion with your past few posts. Perhaps I am misinterpreting you in some way. It seems as if you've started from the premise that people opposed to CRT are right-wing crackpots who only dislike CRT because they've got their own propaganda to peddle... but as you actually learn more about it you are becoming much more skeptical about CRT?

Does that make you a right-wing crackpot?

Or did you perhaps start out with a partisan presumption that was misplaced? Or am I missing a step in there somewhere, which is certainly a possibility?
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Of course the right wing critics of CRT have their own theories which are just as, if not a lot more, wacky.
You probably know this, but just for the sake of clarity, The New Republic are left-of-center.
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Old 3rd May 2021, 03:44 PM   #108
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The part that is still confusing to me is that CRT is not at all Critical, highly Racist, and not much Theory bouncing around in there.

What little theory I can grok is that facts are overrated and we should take proponents' word for whatever they say, and all whites are inarguably racist and that should be taken as a given too. And that this has something to do with teaching math.

I mean, a theory can be tested, right? Or at least spelled out/summarized plainly? Seems like this is more an approach than advocation of a cohesive theory, and the approach is "accept that whatever CRTers say is right without evidence. And you suck"
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Old 4th May 2021, 07:53 AM   #109
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Anyone check out the https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory article. Its about the most neutral I can find, still not especially flattering.
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Old 4th May 2021, 08:04 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The part that is still confusing to me is that CRT is not at all Critical, highly Racist, and not much Theory bouncing around in there.

What little theory I can grok is that facts are overrated and we should take proponents' word for whatever they say, and all whites are inarguably racist and that should be taken as a given too. And that this has something to do with teaching math.

I mean, a theory can be tested, right? Or at least spelled out/summarized plainly? Seems like this is more an approach than advocation of a cohesive theory, and the approach is "accept that whatever CRTers say is right without evidence. And you suck"
"Critical theory" is a thing. An academic thing, which you would definitely not be interested in. The words in "critical race theory" mean it's supposed to be a race-related offshoot of that critical theory. It's a specific usage of those two words together, not a general usage of the two words separately.

As I said above, this is an academic thing-- the name alone is understood by academics and misinterpreted by the general public.
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Old 4th May 2021, 08:28 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Critical theory" is a thing. An academic thing, which you would definitely not be interested in. The words in "critical race theory" mean it's supposed to be a race-related offshoot of that critical theory. It's a specific usage of those two words together, not a general usage of the two words separately.

As I said above, this is an academic thing-- the name alone is understood by academics and misinterpreted by the general public.
Yes. Yes I know. We all know about the alleged Marxist origin, as spelled out in the OP links.

My objection is that it does not seem related to Critical Theory except in name, sort of an implied credibility thing. Proponents sure seem to go out of their way to be ambiguous, and to embrace "cuz I said so" and appeals to emotion as primary tools.
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Old 4th May 2021, 10:00 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As I said above, this is an academic thing-- the name alone is understood by academics and misinterpreted by the general public.
That's great. It's an academic thing much like solipsism is an academic thing. Both are vaguely interesting premises for thought experiments, where the experimenters are clever enough to acknowledge that they're setting aside reality in order to philosophically play around for a while. They're academic things that really need the disclaimer of "this is intended only for mental masturbation, and is unsuited to application in any way, because once removed from the realm of the purely philosophical, it's just plain dumb".

Unfortunately... just like solipsism, it ends up getting glommed onto by dumb people who don't grok how flawed the concepts are, and those people just run right ahead and start trying to apply it in real life.
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Old 4th May 2021, 10:15 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's great. It's an academic thing much like solipsism is an academic thing. Both are vaguely interesting premises for thought experiments, where the experimenters are clever enough to acknowledge that they're setting aside reality in order to philosophically play around for a while. They're academic things that really need the disclaimer of "this is intended only for mental masturbation, and is unsuited to application in any way, because once removed from the realm of the purely philosophical, it's just plain dumb".

Unfortunately... just like solipsism, it ends up getting glommed onto by dumb people who don't grok how flawed the concepts are, and those people just run right ahead and start trying to apply it in real life.
I guess I just see no value in whining about things that exist but don't affect me in the slightest. I don't live in terror of invented hypothetical situations where some abstract idea is used as the justification for events that haven't occurred.

The mileage of others, I have frequently noted on this site, differs radically.
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Old 4th May 2021, 10:18 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Critical theory" is a thing. An academic thing, which you would definitely not be interested in. The words in "critical race theory" mean it's supposed to be a race-related offshoot of that critical theory. It's a specific usage of those two words together, not a general usage of the two words separately.

As I said above, this is an academic thing-- the name alone is understood by academics and misinterpreted by the general public.
That's really the rub of it. Critical race theory, in reality, is a niche academic subject.

In practice, it's what conservatives scream whenever a kid learns that slavery was bad in their social studies class or see pictures of white cops setting dogs and firehoses on black protestors in the civil rights era. Most mentions of critical race theory have much more to do with conservatives getting upset that their revisionist forms of US history are being challenged in the curriculum and wielding local and state power to oppose that.
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Old 4th May 2021, 11:02 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I guess I just see no value in whining about things that exist but don't affect me in the slightest. I don't live in terror of invented hypothetical situations where some abstract idea is used as the justification for events that haven't occurred.

The mileage of others, I have frequently noted on this site, differs radically.
Mmm... yeah, I get your general point, but CRT is actually starting to escape academia. It's been showing up in middle school and high school curriculum, in corporate anti-racism training, and in general discourse. It's often not called out as such, and in school it's not being taught as explicitly CRT. Rather, the underlying assumptions of CRT that make for interesting thinking are being incorporated into secondary school teaching.

Is math racist? New course outlines prompt conversations about identity, race in Seattle classrooms

Quote:
Seattle’s recently released proposal includes questions like, “Where does Power and Oppression show up in our math experiences?” and “How is math manipulated to allow inequality and oppression to persist?”
At some point, even if it doesn't directly affect you, it seems worth noting that it is affecting many people - especially children.
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Old 4th May 2021, 11:04 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Mmm... yeah, I get your general point, but CRT is actually starting to escape academia. It's been showing up in middle school and high school curriculum, in corporate anti-racism training, and in general discourse. It's often not called out as such, and in school it's not being taught as explicitly CRT. Rather, the underlying assumptions of CRT that make for interesting thinking are being incorporated into secondary school teaching.

Is math racist? New course outlines prompt conversations about identity, race in Seattle classrooms



At some point, even if it doesn't directly affect you, it seems worth noting that it is affecting many people - especially children.
So, is it racist?
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Old 4th May 2021, 11:07 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's really the rub of it. Critical race theory, in reality, is a niche academic subject.

In practice, it's what conservatives scream whenever a kid learns that slavery was bad in their social studies class or see pictures of white cops setting dogs and firehoses on black protestors in the civil rights era. Most mentions of critical race theory have much more to do with conservatives getting upset that their revisionist forms of US history are being challenged in the curriculum and wielding local and state power to oppose that.
This is a narrative I've run across before, this artificial framing as if "conservatives" don't want real history to be taught. I think this is a red herring.

I learned all of those things in middle school and high school. I learned about slavery, I learned about the civil war, I learned about the underground railroad, I learned about jim crow laws. Those were all taught, and none of them were tip-toed around.

On the other hand, however, the teacher wasn't busy moralizing about it as if it were currently happening, and the teacher wasn't implying that the children were somehow held to blame for things their ancestors did (and in many cases not even that, as many were later immigrants). They weren't inculcating all white students to feel guilt as a result of them being white, and they weren't busy brainwashing everyone to believe that the entire US is irredeemably racist and all white people support white supremacy even if they don't realize it, and all of the other "inadvertent complicity" ******** that's being foisted on kids these days.

It's entirely possible to teach accurate and meaningful history, including the impact of that history on modern society, without foisting a guilt-laden ideology onto students.
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Old 4th May 2021, 11:10 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
At some point, even if it doesn't directly affect you, it seems worth noting that it is affecting many people - especially children.
Where's my bingo card? I expected "will nobody think of the children?!" eventually, but not this soon.
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Old 4th May 2021, 11:18 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is a narrative I've run across before, this artificial framing as if "conservatives" don't want real history to be taught. I think this is a red herring.

I learned all of those things in middle school and high school. I learned about slavery, I learned about the civil war, I learned about the underground railroad, I learned about jim crow laws. Those were all taught, and none of them were tip-toed around.

On the other hand, however, the teacher wasn't busy moralizing about it as if it were currently happening, and the teacher wasn't implying that the children were somehow held to blame for things their ancestors did (and in many cases not even that, as many were later immigrants). They weren't inculcating all white students to feel guilt as a result of them being white, and they weren't busy brainwashing everyone to believe that the entire US is irredeemably racist and all white people support white supremacy even if they don't realize it, and all of the other "inadvertent complicity" ******** that's being foisted on kids these days.

It's entirely possible to teach accurate and meaningful history, including the impact of that history on modern society, without foisting a guilt-laden ideology onto students.
Your experience is not universal. It is still very common to whitewash elements of American history in schools. Culture wars over the content of school curricula is very common, and examples abound of historical revisionism.

One such example was a Texas textbook that whitewashed African slaves as "workers" and implied they were economic migrants rather than chattel slaves.
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Old 4th May 2021, 02:46 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is a narrative I've run across before, this artificial framing as if "conservatives" don't want real history to be taught. I think this is a red herring.
Yes, it's completely phony. Made up just to be able to bang on and on about conservatives.

Where it is going to show up in schools is in, say, drama class. White students will be limited to using accents or portraying characters outside white identified ones whereas students of colour are permitted to portray whatever race/accent they choose. So a white kid portraying Chairman Mao is racist, a Filipino kid portraying Winston Churchill is not.

Or In art class. White students will be prohibited from using a style considered to belong to another culture while students of colour are given a lot more latitude when it comes to freedom of expression.

The CRT and how it pertains to math is nothing but bafflegab that may mean something to someone who's devoted their life studying it but to John and Jane Q. Public, it's pretty much meaningless.
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