IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 13th May 2021, 11:01 AM   #201
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,610
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which bits of history would be prevented from being taught by the Oklahoma law discussed upthread?
There is much concern over the language of the law that would prohibit any lessons that cause feelings of discomfort. It's a wildly broad language that seems open for abuse. Time will tell as this vague law is actually turned into policy.

It's a strange law. Racial discrimination is already illegal. The broad strokes of the bill seem redundant, because a school teaching explicitly racist lessons would certainly be against the law. Either this law is meant to be broad and prevent discussion of the racist history of this country, or it's redundant virtue signaling.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 11:01 AM   #202
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't trust you on this.
Let's stop here then.

If you can't trust me about me, there's no point continuing.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 11:50 AM   #203
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,023
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
That's just bad logic. Benign racism may have that consequence but its just silly to think it exist for that purpose.

Is it Racist to say Cambodians make the best donuts?
Cambodians own a lot of donut shops?
At one point 90% of independent donut shops in CA were owned by Cambodian Americans.


Edited to delete the accidental quote of myself.
Poor wording on my part. It's used to that end would be a better way of saying what I meant.

I've never been to a Cambodian donut shop.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 11:56 AM   #204
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
"Everyone knows that Italians are all mobsters. And Native American are all drunks. But did you know that black people love taffy? That Eskimos run all the locksmith shops? That the Irish have huge nipples? Or that Puerto Ricans can dangle from steel beams for hours at a time? Also did you know that the Dutch enjoy speaking to telemarketers? Or that Peruvians love to swoop in and save the day at the last minute? And they can shoot laser beams out of their eyes!"

- The Onion Movie "Little Known Racial Stereotypes"
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 11:59 AM   #205
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Poor wording on my part. It's used to that end would be a better way of saying what I meant.

I've never been to a Cambodian donut shop.
You've missed out, they aren't universal good but the most are way better than the big chains.

Last edited by ahhell; 13th May 2021 at 12:03 PM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:05 PM   #206
dirtywick
Illuminator
 
dirtywick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,023
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You've missed out, they aren't universal good but the most are way better than the big chains.
Yeah, I'm sure they are. We have donut shops where I live, but we call it bakery, and the locally owned ones are always much better than the chain places, and usually even cheaper. But they don't serve fresh coffee, just donuts, for some reason.
dirtywick is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:09 PM   #207
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Let's stop here then.

If you can't trust me about me, there's no point continuing.
That's a shame, you should read the rest of my post.

I think you're probably conflating two different things. Animus towards college athletes and animus towards Black Americans. I've heard the line, athletes are only at the college on account of being athletes, regardless of race. I've heard the line that Black Americans are taking spots from whites and Asians due to affirmative action. I've never heard anyone do both. Maybe someone has but it would be weird.

This goes to one of my many points regarding not assuming the worst interpretation of something.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:17 PM   #208
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Yeah, I'm sure they are. We have donut shops where I live, but we call it bakery, and the locally owned ones are always much better than the chain places, and usually even cheaper. But they don't serve fresh coffee, just donuts, for some reason.
No coffee, that's weird. The shops in CA usually have great donuts and crap coffee.

It goes to a side point. Not all stereo types are untrue and its not necessarily racist to notice. Even if, racist often do. There's often a founder effect with immigrant groups, someone comes here and gets into a business or neighbor then writes to the relations about how great it is. The reason the barber shop is such center of Black American culture is probably because there was a time when that was about the only business a Black man was allowed. The reason Jews dominated banking in Europe for so long was because the church forbade usury for Christians and Jews were often barred from other occupations.

Black Americans dominate many sports, its almost certainly socio-economic. There was a time when it was the Irish and Jews.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:22 PM   #209
Lplus
Muse
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 794
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Yeah, ‘racist’ never meant ‘hatefully racist’ though that has often been the common usage connotation. The older meaning was simply ‘racially prejudiced’ and, similarly, while ‘racially prejudiced’ has a connotation of meaning ‘ill-disposed towards (racial group)’ it really just means that you have preconceived notions about someone due to the racial group they are a member of.

The ‘hateful or negative’ connotation is really drummed into some people. For example you get people who are astonished that it’s considered racist to assume that an Asian guy is going to be good at math, or a tall black guy, good at basketball.
That would be racial stereotyping. If the preconceived notion is that their racial group is inherently inferior (or superior) then it would also be racism.
__________________
Those who are most fanatical in their condemnation of others are often mortally afraid that, in their deepest subconcious, they agree with those who they are condemning.
Life isn't fair, Princess; anyone who says it could be is selling a political ideology.
Communism actively works against the fundamental urge of the human animal to survive and prosper, even at the expense of others, whilst Nazism relies on that urge.
Lplus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:28 PM   #210
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
"I'm not this kind of bad, I'm that kind of bad" is a distinction that is never, ever, ever, not once, ever, not at any point ever made without icky intentions.

This sort of extra-precise academia and legal language as if we're trying to write machine code is not necessary and we all know it.

"Are you a racist or bigot with racial charged overtones?" is literally never a discussion that has to happen.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:47 PM   #211
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm sure the small circle of academics that are interested in this academic theory could define it quite well. These people, and that definition, are actually not very relevant, because what reactionaries are crying about is not, in fact, critical race theory.

Whatever reactionary conservatives are talking about in relation to politics has nothing to do with CRT. That's probably why it's so difficult to define colloquially, because what's being discussed in the public discourse is pretty clearly not "CRT", but just more of the same culture war nonsense that has become standard with the extreme right.

When some slavering moron in a MAGA hat accuses Biden of being crypto Marxo-Fascist, you don't actually have to bother with defining Marxism or Fascism, because obviously the accusation is totally unmoored from any objective reality. Giving on-the-face absurd allegations the benefit of the doubt is either willful obtuseness or naïve.

The same applies to reactionaries freaking out that any recognition of the role racism has played in our history is "Critical Race Theory". It's total nonsense.
Are you aware that you haven't actually made any arguments in this post? You've thrown around a lot of negative labels about poorly defined groups of people that you seem merit derision... but you've not actually made a point.

Being condescending and demeaning in lieu of making a point is fallacious.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:48 PM   #212
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I like the "This thing you're complaining about isn't what you are calling it, so the thing you're complaining about doesn't exist and you're a bad person for worrying about it argument." Its clever.
I disagree. It's not clever at all. It's irrational, sophomoric, and exhausting for anyone trying to engage in good faith.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:55 PM   #213
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Or “the gays are so creative they make fantastic hair stylists”.
Or "females are so kind and caring and supportive, they make the best nurses and teachers and homemakers!"
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 12:57 PM   #214
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,171
Well, but I think it’s important, possibly even vital, to downgrade ‘racist’ as a word from its usage in some circles as a vile insult and accusation of terrible, hateful character all by itself. As long as people take it that way they will slam their blinders down before the conversation starts. A decent person should be able to go ‘huh... could I be racist? What kinds of ideas might I have that are racist?’ and even be willing to revisit that line of thought from time to time, rather than going ‘I am absolutely not racist, how dare you, take it back!’

Adjacent to that, the idea that ‘considering racism’s impact on you as a person who certainly aren’t trying to be racist on purpose, and how much it might have crept under your radar,’ is automatically nothing but ‘woke virtue self-flagellation’ is just dumb.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 01:01 PM   #215
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12,094
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
That would be racial stereotyping. If the preconceived notion is that their racial group is inherently inferior (or superior) then it would also be racism.
I think you could also consider promoting one race group at the expense of another racism. This may just be a different way of saying the same thing, though. Eg how can you promote a particular race without saying it's superior?

I wonder, however, if this isn't just an outgrowth of drawing up "race" categories in the first place. Once we draw up categories we characterize them, compare them and ranking them , etc. Problems come when we try to do this with categories are fairly meaningless to begin with.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 01:03 PM   #216
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is much concern over the language of the law that would prohibit any lessons that cause feelings of discomfort. It's a wildly broad language that seems open for abuse. Time will tell as this vague law is actually turned into policy.

It's a strange law. Racial discrimination is already illegal. The broad strokes of the bill seem redundant, because a school teaching explicitly racist lessons would certainly be against the law. Either this law is meant to be broad and prevent discussion of the racist history of this country, or it's redundant virtue signaling.
Or it's a response to kids coming home crying and sad because the message underlying their class that day was that all white people are racists and racists are bad? Or because twice now, and entire class of males were asked to stand, and then told they needed to apologize to the females in class for all of the evil done by males? Or because the curriculum in Seattle includes math classes that center discussions of how math is used as a tool of white supremacy, instead of actually teaching math?

I suspect that reality is somewhere in the middle of your antipodes.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 01:08 PM   #217
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 16,793
Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Well, but I think it’s important, possibly even vital, to downgrade ‘racist’ as a word from its usage in some circles as a vile insult and accusation of terrible, hateful character all by itself. As long as people take it that way they will slam their blinders down before the conversation starts. A decent person should be able to go ‘huh... could I be racist? What kinds of ideas might I have that are racist?’ and even be willing to revisit that line of thought from time to time, rather than going ‘I am absolutely not racist, how dare you, take it back!’

Adjacent to that, the idea that ‘considering racism’s impact on you as a person who certainly aren’t trying to be racist on purpose, and how much it might have crept under your radar,’ is automatically nothing but ‘woke virtue self-flagellation’ is just dumb.
I hear you... but I also look at how the label "racism" is levied against people.

Once in a while someone will bring up a behavior or a view as being something that is racist in effect, and discuss the subconscious bias and stereotypes that go with it. There've been some very good threads on that topic. But far more often, it gets used as a label with which to poison the well and to dismiss an opponent as simply being too evil and bad to be worth honestly engaging with. It gets used as a dismissal and a condemnation of the entire person, not of their argument.

The same holds true for any number of other labels bestowed in judgment upon other posters.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 02:20 PM   #218
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
There is much concern over the language of the law that would prohibit any lessons that cause feelings of discomfort. It's a wildly broad language that seems open for abuse. Time will tell as this vague law is actually turned into policy.
Time will tell, indeed, but I'd be willing to wager no textbook approved by either TX or CA (regionally dominant textbook markets) will end up being barred by law from OK public school curricula. Hell, I'd be surprised if any textbook used somewhere in the U.S. gets kicked by this law. There is a pretty significant difference between giving someone facts which make their ancestors look bad and telling them they ought to "feel discomfort, guilt, anguish or any other form of psychological distress on account of his or her race," so far as I can tell.

ETA: As a bit of an aside, I still don't think this law has much of anything to do w/ CRT except that it keeps being commented upon in media as such, e.g.

https://twitter.com/TheOklahoman_/st...77687934889984
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 13th May 2021 at 02:32 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 03:21 PM   #219
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Came across this video about CRT in schools:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Going back, I'm sure that Loury and McWhorter discuss the body of legal analysis known as CRT(ETA: and it's derivation, Critical Race Studies) with all of the fine understanding that we can expect from a neoliberal economist, and a linguist specializing in AAVE.

Which is to say as much as we can discuss it here - virtually none. Their understanding of what the rightwing caterwauling on the topic is about as useful as ours as well.

And to be clear, I mean that I'm pretty sure Loury is an economics professor that favors the privatization of as many public resources as possible along the lines of the economics of Thatcher or Reagan, I don't mean he's Neoliberal in the Jiimy Dore Youtuber "anyone to what I think is my right" sense. And while I've read none of his work (and know little of economics), I've read a decent amount of McWhorter, and have found him to be very interesting when writing in his chosen field of study.

I mean, I've watched them before, I think they're fundamentally *wrong* on these matters, though well meaning and obviously intelligent. I don't think they're clowns and frauds like, say, James Lindsay, Candace Owens, or the 1776 circus that Dolt 45 put together, and which you can see for an example of why exactly rightwing buffoons are screaming and howling about what they (falesly) think it is.

Last edited by Mumbles; 13th May 2021 at 03:33 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 04:39 PM   #220
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Which is to say as much as we can discuss it here - virtually none. Their understanding of what the rightwing caterwauling on the topic is about as useful as ours as well.
Why should we focus on right-wing caterwauling instead of CRT itself?

(See also #178)
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 13th May 2021 at 04:40 PM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 04:57 PM   #221
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why should we focus on right-wing caterwauling instead of CRT itself?

(See also #178)
Feel free to read a few books on the subject and tell us what you think - consider founders such as Derrick Bell or Kimberly Crenshaw.

Or for a very basic view, here's Bell, quite some time ago:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I should note that while Bell's a founder, his word is not definitive - others who have studied it have come up with separate ideas (see Crenshaw's founding of intersectionality as an example), disagreements with Bell or one another, and so forth. And the video is, at best, a start of a start of the matter (the repetition is intentional here).

(ETA: Remember when the right wing saw a video of Obama hugging this dude back in the late 1980s and lost their minds?)

Last edited by Mumbles; 13th May 2021 at 05:04 PM.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 05:32 PM   #222
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Feel free to read a few books on the subject and tell us what you think...
I've just finished the overview text from Delgado and Stefancic, but I'm still unsure how to use CRT to make predictions.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 06:11 PM   #223
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 73,836
Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You've missed out, they aren't universal good but the most are way better than the big chains.
You haven't lived until you've got a fresh savoury roll from a Vietnamese hot bread shop.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th May 2021, 08:47 PM   #224
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I've just finished the overview text from Delgado and Stefancic, but I'm still unsure how to use CRT to make predictions.
Okay. Well, when you make your way through a few books on the topic, like I said, tell us a bit about them.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 04:50 AM   #225
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, when you make your way through a few books on the topic, like I said, tell us a bit about them.
I've already excerpted several bits from the Delgado and Stefancic book (which has breadth if not depth) and no one seemed interested. Feel free to quote from Bell and/or Crenshaw, though, I mentioned in post #13 that they are serious scholars and well worth reading. If, for example, intersectionality theory can be used to make predictions about how our society functions or how to remedy social dysfunction, that would be fascinating.

Since we are doing reading suggestions, right now I'm making my way through Beyond All Reason by Farber and Sherry as a sort of chaser to Delgado and Stefancic. Bit polemical for an academic text, but interesting so far.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin

Last edited by d4m10n; 14th May 2021 at 05:06 AM.
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 05:11 AM   #226
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Or it's a response to kids coming home crying and sad because the message underlying their class that day was that all white people are racists and racists are bad? Or because twice now, and entire class of males were asked to stand, and then told they needed to apologize to the females in class for all of the evil done by males? Or because the curriculum in Seattle includes math classes that center discussions of how math is used as a tool of white supremacy, instead of actually teaching math?

I suspect that reality is somewhere in the middle of your antipodes.
To me the obvious solution is to tailor the guardrails to the content, rather than the label. Don't ban "CRT" since that doesn't seem to be distinct depending on academic vs. common usage. Ban what you're trying to stop about it--such as just what you say, teaching people to be ashamed of something they have no control over. Then it doesn't matter what people label it. Especially: as with any restrictions on education, tailor it narrowly.
__________________


Last edited by gnome; 14th May 2021 at 05:13 AM.
gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 05:43 AM   #227
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 8,726
I'm seriously done with the analogy, d4m10n. Do as you wish, I'm moving on.

Originally Posted by gnome View Post
To me the obvious solution is to tailor the guardrails to the content, rather than the label. Don't ban "CRT" since that doesn't seem to be distinct depending on academic vs. common usage. Ban what you're trying to stop about it--such as just what you say, teaching people to be ashamed of something they have no control over. Then it doesn't matter what people label it. Especially: as with any restrictions on education, tailor it narrowly.
And, of course, it's quite possible that the kid just didn't get the point of the lesson. Happens sometimes, I know parents can should be defensive of their kids, but if it's just one, pull the kid aside and set them straight.

But again, there's a problem. Here's a supposed "masterful takedown" where someone claims CRT (which was invented in the 1970s) was "used by Hitler and the KKK". Apparently Hitler travelled through time to find a theory that he could use to...commit genocide against the jews in the 1940s I guess, despite the millenium-long history of pogroms and slaughters against jewish people in Europe that he could readily access instead?

(She also says it "runs counter to MLK", which...is very debatable, but I suppose one could debate his significance to the formation of the framework.)

Ah, and Fox And friends recently said that CRT teaches "If you're white you need to apologize." For what is not stated by the hosts, but I assume...apologize for being white - the only people who want that are ********, but again, that's actual cable news in the US, and this sort of crap is why this thread exists here, today.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 07:31 AM   #228
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
That all looks like conservatives conflating anti-racism with CRT. It seems to me the one was somewhat instrumental in the development of the other.

There appear to be two distinct version of CRT in academia as well. One in legal departments and one in philosophy departments. The legal theory seems the least controversial.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 07:31 AM   #229
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
I can see where suggesting someone has a moral obligation is received mistakenly as attributing guilt--especially when proposing it to someone that finds any form of social duty as anathema: that the only reason they should be obligated to anyone, is if they've done them wrong or willingly chosen the burden transactionally.

That's not an insane point of view (if a bit extreme on the individualism side), but it is interesting how often it coincides with contradictory doctrine such as that patriotism and religious faith are moral obligations.

Another funny bit is sometimes the person will use identical language without a hint of irony--decry the "original sin" flavor of hearing that someone told somebody they were automatically guilty because they are white, while uncritically accepting the literal "original sin" dogma of most Christian denominations.
__________________


Last edited by gnome; 14th May 2021 at 07:43 AM.
gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 10:48 AM   #230
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,171
Well said, Gnome.

It’s interesting, I have a very guilty-looking personality in general, (I hate to be seen doing anything, uncomfortable being watched, terrible performance anxiety even over things I do well, etc) but racial and class guilt is something it wouldn’t even occur to me to be guilty about. The way I see it, nobody chooses their starting stats in life, and being any (immutable characteristic) isn’t and cannot be a fault. Seeing that other people face challenges I don’t face, or that I face to a much lesser degree, makes me sympathetic and motivated to try to help improve the situation, not ‘guilty.’

The ‘oh your guys just want everyone to be so full of guilt’ stuff, I can sort of see where they’d get that idea but I have a hard time with how tightly they seem to cling to it and how loud they like to shout it. For every wrongheaded person that actually thinks they should tell some kid to feel bad for being white or male there are a hundred who would tell that person how harmful and counterproductive ideas like that are. Absolutely no educator should be telling any child to feel bad or guilty for anything beyond their control - and a child’s sphere of control is small indeed.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 10:57 AM   #231
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
All of that sort of started when "privilege" became the new accepted term to use in the social debate.

I am the guy who's always said "privilege" the way it was primarily used (outside of any social technical definitions of what the term was supposed to mean in that context) really did just quickly degrade into "White Guilt Version 2.0"

Mainly because it always came with so little actual practical... okay now what? with it. You just supposed to be "aware" of it and that was it. I'm sorry that functionally is the same thing as guilt.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 11:21 AM   #232
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
I think that's a universal phenomenon for just about any attempt to tackle a social problem, a portion will try to "weaponize" the concept, and another portion will point to that as a reason to reject the entire concept.

I'm not sure there's any way to avoid it except to always start with a more detailed definition of a "charged" term before using it later on in the article or speech. Not to argue about what it should mean at all times, but to clarify how the speaker or writer means it that time.

Or, I suppose, we could reject the entire idea of addressing social problems. I'm sure some would be happy with that.
__________________


Last edited by gnome; 14th May 2021 at 11:24 AM.
gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 11:59 AM   #233
Elagabalus
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 7,051
Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why should we focus on right-wing caterwauling instead of CRT itself?

(See also #178)
Eh ... ***SHRUGS*** focus isn't everything! There was also the superb dithering. Let see a flat screen do that!
Elagabalus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th May 2021, 12:22 PM   #234
Lithrael
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,171
I heard people complain about ‘white guilt’ ‘savior complex’ etc etc way before ‘privelege’ entered the lexicon. And sure those do exist but the brush has long been used very, very broadly.

People really do knee jerk hard and take ‘they had it harder; you had it easier by comparison’ as ‘you had it easy,’ which is the whole backlash to the term ‘privelege’ which half of everyone takes as ‘born with silver spoon in mouth’ despite its clear contextual definition.

Like I said about terms like this earlier, sure it’s a nuanced usage of the word in this context, and that might not be how some people take it on connotation but it’s not ‘up is down’ newspeak either.
Lithrael is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2021, 04:24 PM   #235
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
I think you could also consider promoting one race group at the expense of another racism. This may just be a different way of saying the same thing, though. Eg how can you promote a particular race without saying it's superior?

I wonder, however, if this isn't just an outgrowth of drawing up "race" categories in the first place. Once we draw up categories we characterize them, compare them and ranking them , etc. Problems come when we try to do this with categories are fairly meaningless to begin with.
The trouble is that people without good intentions have no problem doing so, and language is needed to describe it in order to oppose it.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2021, 05:28 PM   #236
d4m10n
Philosopher
 
d4m10n's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Mounts Farm
Posts: 7,930
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
The trouble is that people without good intentions have no problem doing so, and language is needed to describe it in order to oppose it.
That language needn't reify race, though.
__________________
"Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin
d4m10n is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2021, 06:22 AM   #237
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
How would you describe someone else's racist behavior then? Or obvious cases of implicit bias?

Not necessarily contradicting you--maybe you're on to something.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2021, 07:16 AM   #238
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
Originally Posted by gnome View Post
How would you describe someone else's racist behavior then? Or obvious cases of implicit bias?

Not necessarily contradicting you--maybe you're on to something.
Somewhat trivial comment to follow.

There is no such thing as obvious implicit bias, that's kind of the point of implicit bias.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2021, 07:22 AM   #239
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
 
gnome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 12,308
I have to disagree with that. Obvious and explicit are two different things.

Trivial example: An attraction claims to admit all races, but gives a gatekeeper discretion on who to let in. Having no instructions to the contrary, and expressing no policy to that effect, they turn away 95% of one race and only 30% of another.

That is an obvious bias, and it is also implicit because it is not codified in any way.

But splitting those hairs is not my point. Use my first example if you find the second too muddy.
__________________

gnome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th May 2021, 07:27 AM   #240
ahhell
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,800
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
All of that sort of started when "privilege" became the new accepted term to use in the social debate.

I am the guy who's always said "privilege" the way it was primarily used (outside of any social technical definitions of what the term was supposed to mean in that context) really did just quickly degrade into "White Guilt Version 2.0"

Mainly because it always came with so little actual practical... okay now what? with it. You just supposed to be "aware" of it and that was it. I'm sorry that functionally is the same thing as guilt.
That may be the biggest issue with the current anti-racists stuff. DeAngelo's solution is, hire her for training. Kendi's is instituting an anti-racist politburu.
https://www.politico.com/interactive...nal-amendment/

Quote:
It would establish and permanently fund the Department of Anti-racism (DOA) comprised of formally trained experts on racism and no political appointees. The DOA would be responsible for preclearing all local, state and federal public policies to ensure they won’t yield racial inequity, monitor those policies, investigate private racist policies when racial inequity surfaces, and monitor public officials for expressions of racist ideas.
That's a dystopian nightmare. A group of unaccountable self-selected experts that get to veto any law or policy. Not to mention, "pre-clearing" polices for future results. I guess he's never heard of unintended consequences. No worry, those experts are experts after all.

Pretty much all of the current solutions seem to go this way. To not be racist you just have to agree with all of my policy ideas.

Last edited by ahhell; 18th May 2021 at 07:28 AM.
ahhell is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:24 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.