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Tags Capitol riot , donald trump , protest incidents , Trump controversies , Washington DC incidents

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Old 1st June 2021, 05:51 PM   #201
8enotto
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Does this bit of information about the oathkeepers plan only affect that group?
Is there anything known yet that other groups were in on it yet?

If just the one group it may be possible to brush it off as just some sacrificial cannon fodder. The text sort of implies IF trimp did the insurrection act and called on them to be the militia.
Which apparently he didn't care to do.

As if it had not been coordinated with anyone before the fact.
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Old 1st June 2021, 08:01 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Does this bit of information about the oathkeepers plan only affect that group?
Is there anything known yet that other groups were in on it yet?

If just the one group it may be possible to brush it off as just some sacrificial cannon fodder. The text sort of implies IF trimp did the insurrection act and called on them to be the militia.
Which apparently he didn't care to do.

As if it had not been coordinated with anyone before the fact.
Well, the Proud Boys have been charged with conspiracy to obstruct or impede an official proceeding...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN2BB1RL

But in any case, does it really matter?

There is little doubt that is these Oath Keeper clowns had succeeded in their insurrection, they would have captured probably murdered any (D) members of congress they got their hands on. That the insurrection failed is not a defence against charges .... if you attempt to rob a bank and fail, that does not mean you are in the clear.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 04:41 AM   #203
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"Baked Alaska", an alt-right web personality, may have his bail revoked.

https://twitter.com/emptywheel/statu...60987419463682

Besides participating in the J6 attack, he is somewhat famous for livestreaming belligerent confrontations with store clerks over mask requirements. It seems his most recent video, where he shouts a bunch of slurs at a clerk at a fast food restaurant asking him to wear a mask, may be the inciting incident for his pretrial release getting yanked.

Baked Alaska has a previous criminal record for trespassing and assaulting staff with pepperspray in intentional confrontations over mask policies. His livelihood largely relies on viewer donations, so public conflict is his bread and butter.

Baked Alaska's live stream was heavily featured in FBI wanted photos, as our fashy streamer managed to implicate a lot of his comrades that took part in the attack. Critical support for fascists live streaming their crimes and screwing over all their co-criminals.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 04:46 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Does this bit of information about the oathkeepers plan only affect that group?
Is there anything known yet that other groups were in on it yet?

If just the one group it may be possible to brush it off as just some sacrificial cannon fodder. The text sort of implies IF trimp did the insurrection act and called on them to be the militia.
Which apparently he didn't care to do.

As if it had not been coordinated with anyone before the fact.
Like many right wingers, their expectations for what was actually going to happen on J6 were pretty incoherent.

They seemed to be under the impression that "antifa" was going to attack the capitol, which doesn't make much sense as the fascist candidate, Trump, had lost. I can't imagine why liberals and lefty would engage in violence unless Trump took more concrete actions to invalidate the election through force. Anti-Trump turnout that day was minimal, again, because they were not opposed to the actions of Congress certifying the Trump loss.

Like many conspiracy theorists and optimistic fascists, perhaps they believed Trump was going to kick off a violent coup by declaring an insurrection and invalidating the vote. Like all the others, they were left with their asses in the breeze because, despite talking the talk, Trump wasn't willing to commit.

It seems pretty clear to me that the plan they originally had never came to pass, but that's really not necessary for the conspiracy charges to stick. These people were working in coordination to engage in criminal activity, and when conditions on the ground changed they modified that conspiracy on the fly.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 05:42 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It seems pretty clear to me that the plan they originally had never came to pass, but that's really not necessary for the conspiracy charges to stick. These people were working in coordination to engage in criminal activity, and when conditions on the ground changed they modified that conspiracy on the fly.
Indeed.

What these right-wing fabulists fail to understand is that "no harm, no foul" does not apply with a conspiracy - you don't have to actually go through with the planned crime - all that is needed is for two or more people plan a crime, and badaboom, you have a conspiracy!
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Old 2nd June 2021, 05:42 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Well, the Proud Boys have been charged with conspiracy to obstruct or impede an official proceeding...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN2BB1RL

But in any case, does it really matter?
Yes. It matters a lot.

Many of the charges against the rioters are misdemeanors. There are often several, but that probably translated to probably a fine and probation and possibly a couple months in jail.

Obviously some who attacked police and did other more serious things are facing felony charges.

For those members of these groups, whether there is proof that they engaged in felonious crimes or even did not do so, the conspiracy charge means that instead of getting a slap on the wrist they are looking at a long prison sentence.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 06:01 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Yes. It matters a lot.

Many of the charges against the rioters are misdemeanors. There are often several, but that probably translated to probably a fine and probation and possibly a couple months in jail.

Obviously some who attacked police and did other more serious things are facing felony charges.

For those members of these groups, whether there is proof that they engaged in felonious crimes or even did not do so, the conspiracy charge means that instead of getting a slap on the wrist they are looking at a long prison sentence.
That wasn't what I meant by "does it really matter". What I said was in the context of the post I was replying to.

ETA: Perhaps if I had said "does it really matter, they're still in deep doodoo" might have made it clearer!
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Old 2nd June 2021, 06:11 AM   #208
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it is CRITICAL that groups like PB and OK are criminally prosecuted, if for no other reason that it makes it easier to exclude them from public activities and harder from Republicans to associate with them .
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Old 2nd June 2021, 06:57 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it is CRITICAL that groups like PB and OK are criminally prosecuted, if for no other reason that it makes it easier to exclude them from public activities and harder from Republicans to associate with them .

And down the road we can hear the cries of "The laws that prevent convicted felons from voting aren't supposed to apply to me, I'm white."
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Old 2nd June 2021, 08:30 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
The ones who don't actually want to have it proven that Antifa wasn't behind the riots, because they'll still need the boogeymen's assumed roles in the riots as vote-fodder in campaign speeches and tweets.
I do believe you've got it!
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Old 2nd June 2021, 08:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Based on what I've seen on CNN and other news outlets, the January 6th incident was "mostly peaceful". Just like other cities that were burning in the background but because 51% of the people were protesting instead of burning the city down, it was called a mostly peaceful protest.

BTW, why do these left politicians want to defund the police but not when it comes to their own security. Hypocrite much?
Really? Because what I saw was an hours long violent attack, with quite a few people gawking but not directly involved. In other words a %100 violent gathering.

You do realize that “93% peaceful means that in almost all cases nobody was violent at all, right? And it doesn’t count when, the cops completely ignore hours of late-nite looting, but were out in full riot gear for a couple hundred actual protesters in the daytime (as seen in NYC, Philly, LA, and many other cities), correct?

Just want to be sure that you have any understanding of current events or the Nglish language, before anyone continues.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 08:58 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
it is CRITICAL that groups like PB and OK are criminally prosecuted, if for no other reason that it makes it easier to exclude them from public activities and harder from Republicans to associate with them .
prosecutions shouldn't have a political bias, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, BLM and Antifa, and old hold outs from the ELF and ALF.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:15 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
Prosecutions shouldn't have a political bias.
Then "Storming the Capital is bad" can't be a political opinion.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:20 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Really? Because what I saw was an hours long violent attack, with quite a few people gawking but not directly involved. In other words a %100 violent gathering.
Keep in mind that more than 10,000 people were arrested at last year's BLM rallies (probably much more, as that article is from June 4, but protests went on for months after that), yet most American conservatives seem to think that nobody was arrested at those rallies.

They are operating from false assumptions.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:25 AM   #215
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Also protesting is legal, storming the Capital is not, one of those piddling little details.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:34 AM   #216
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We really don't know how many of those arrests will end up being tossed out - or for that matter, how many were for warrants for other offenses, how many were actually protesting, and so forth. Remember, the J20 people arrested for supposedly rioting in DC when Dolt 45 was inaugurated were almost entirely dismissed, because the cops just arrested anyone they saw wearing anything black.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Also protesting is legal, storming the Capital is not, one of those piddling little details.
Well, that can depend. But in any case, yes, the people that fought the cops, broke into the Capitol (ie. most anyone that walked , climbed, or jumped in) all committed crimes. Had they just walked up to the barriers at the Capitol Building, chanted for a while, and left...no real problem. Had they walked into the office buildings on the complex...I mean, trespassing, but nothing major, and when you do that, you're basically there to get arrested for the cameras, theatrics and media attention is part of the point.

ETA: Ah, here's something. A reminder that the main violent rioters over last summer were the police.

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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:40 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
prosecutions shouldn't have a political bias, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, BLM and Antifa, and old hold outs from the ELF and ALF.
All members of BLM and Antifa who stormed the Capitol Building on 6 Jan were dealt with fairly and without political bias. It just happens that there weren't any.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 09:52 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
We really don't know how many of those arrests will end up being tossed out - or for that matter, how many were for warrants for other offenses, how many were actually protesting, and so forth. Remember, the J20 people arrested for supposedly rioting in DC when Dolt 45 was inaugurated were almost entirely dismissed, because the cops just arrested anyone they saw wearing anything black.
Oh I agree -100%

Just pointing out that the reality of what happened is very, very different from the narrative propagated in the conservative social media sphere. They keep claiming that nobody was arrested, no prosecutions relating to the BLM protests or the actual rioting and vandalism that was often adjacent to those protests.

In many cases they arrested just anybody around and then had to drop charges. In many other cases they failed to arrest people engaged in actual criminal behavior because allowing that behavior to continue served to discredit BLM. Yet there were a lot protest-adjacent vandalism and violence which meant that even of the police under-reacted to actual criminal activity, there were still a number of arrests and prosecutions.

Yet, we still keep seeing conservatives claim there were no arrests, and no prosecutions. I see it on my social media almost every day, these things are getting lots of views and generating lots of response.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Tens of thousands of arrests. I don't have a cite for prosecutions, but there were many as well.

This then relates to the Jan 6 event, because now they claim that it is hypocritical to prosecute the insurrectionists. A claim made due to willful ignorance of what actually happened with all the other unrest the the previous year.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 11:00 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by jollyroger85 View Post
prosecutions shouldn't have a political bias, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, BLM and Antifa, and old hold outs from the ELF and ALF.
The Trump Administration disagrees with you there.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 12:51 PM   #220
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Zip tie guy and his mom just had a new superseding indictment drop.

These two are looking to be among those getting the harshest sentences. They're facing all the normal charges for illegally entering the capitol, plus a conspiracy charge and a couple charges related to them carrying weapons. The weapon was a taser, seen by the son carried on a belt holster.

Sucks to suck.

https://www.documentcloud.org/docume...el-superseding
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Old 2nd June 2021, 12:57 PM   #221
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An early guilty plea making its way through the courts.

Perhaps an interesting early test case for the mass of people that all got charged for entering the capitol building, but did not engage in specific acts of violence.

Quote:
Paul Hodgkins entered his plea during a virtual hearing Wednesday in federal court in Washington. The 38-year-old was originally facing five charges, but under a deal negotiated with prosecutors, he pleaded guilty to one count of obstructing an official proceeding.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/02/10024...-investigation

15-21 months in prison seems likely. Looks like a lot of these CHUDs are looking at a year or so in federal prison, and that's just for the more mild cases.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 01:30 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
An early guilty plea making its way through the courts.

Perhaps an interesting early test case for the mass of people that all got charged for entering the capitol building, but did not engage in specific acts of violence.

Paul Hodgkins entered his plea during a virtual hearing Wednesday in federal court in Washington.


15-21 months in prison seems likely. Looks like a lot of these CHUDs are looking at a year or so in federal prison, and that's just for the more mild cases.
Seems like a fair-enough sentence. (From what I have read, it also counts as a felony, with all the legal baggage that will involve for the rest of his life.)
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Old 2nd June 2021, 01:34 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Seems like a fair-enough sentence. (From what I have read, it also counts as a felony, with all the legal baggage that will involve for the rest of his life.)
Yeah, perhaps concerns that these cannon-fodder chuds were going to get a wrist slap are not warranted. Some of the charges were dropped as part of the plea, but the "obstruction" charge remains, which gives the sentencing a bit of teeth.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 02:43 PM   #224
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That sounds better. All the R political folks trying to brush this off as a couple of kids scrapping in the playground is stupid.

I do wonder how many of them are or were scrambling to erase traces of their own involvement in this. I also wonder how many failed to get it all before the FBI got that particular device.
Those probably would be the last ones shaken out of the mix to make sure it's a solid case.

So many loyal followers destroyed by the greedy ambition of the trump. I find it hard to feel sorry for willing stupidity.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 04:10 PM   #225
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I have a friend in Washington, a freelance journalist and photographer, who has some low level connections/sources in the DC FBI.

He tells me his contact reckons the redacted name in the May 31 indictment of those Oath Keepers might come as a shock to some, that this person is a "known name", not directly a member of the Oath Keepers, but is known to have close connections to the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters and other militia groups. He was unable to elaborate further.
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Old 2nd June 2021, 10:16 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I have a friend in Washington, a freelance journalist and photographer, who has some low level connections/sources in the DC FBI.

He tells me his contact reckons the redacted name in the May 31 indictment of those Oath Keepers might come as a shock to some, that this person is a "known name", not directly a member of the Oath Keepers, but is known to have close connections to the Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters and other militia groups. He was unable to elaborate further.
A name of some one like, say, Stone?
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Old 2nd June 2021, 10:31 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
A name of some one like, say, Stone?
I don't know. I wish he would tell me more.

I'm hoping it a Kongresskritter like Boebert or Greene. Boebert is known to have connections with the Oath Keepers, but if it was someone that high profile, I'm sure it would have leaked by now.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 12:59 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
A name of some one like, say, Stone?
Cmon, Gosar gosar no whammy gosar gosar...

Really, there's a few such people in congress, and connected to the Dolt 45's administration, that I can't *really* guess. But when you family makes multiple commercials telling people not to vote for you, you're definitely a piece of scum, so why not hope for him?
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Old 3rd June 2021, 02:54 AM   #229
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Apparently the guy who put his feet up on Pelosi's desk is selling autographed copies of that photo for $100 a piece. I'm sure his lawyer is thrilled.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 04:17 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Apparently the guy who put his feet up on Pelosi's desk is selling autographed copies of that photo for $100 a piece. I'm sure his lawyer is thrilled.
I know these people need cash, but it's probably best to hold off your "I'm glad I did it" type fundraisers until after sentencing.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 05:51 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I know these people need cash, but it's probably best to hold off your "I'm glad I did it" type fundraisers until after sentencing.

It will be funny if they invoke whatever local "Son of Sam Law" is relevant, saying that criminals can't profit from the publicity of their crimes, and seize the money or make him pay it back, on top of everything else.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 05:52 AM   #232
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More reporting on the plea agreement.

Seems that prosecutors are not feeling particularly generous and the chances of escaping with a minor conviction seems unlikely for the bulk of the CHUDs that were involved.

Quote:
Patrick Leduc, Hodgkins' defense attorney, told CNN on Wednesday that the Justice Department insisted his client face a felony charge.

The charge Hodgkins has pleaded to carries a maximum 20 years in prison. His suggested sentence of more than a year may become a template for other rioters who have no criminal history and agree to plead guilty without going to trial.

"The cement has hardened," Leduc said to CNN after the plea hearing. "It took [prosecutors] awhile for them to get a full measure of the man. The message is going to get sent to the other 449."
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/03/polit...als/index.html

Quote:
Others may get more leniency from the Justice Department than Hodgkins, if they didn't enter more sensitive areas of the Capitol, Leduc said. For Hodgkins and his 15 minutes in the Senate chamber, "it's all on CCTV," Leduc said.
Perhaps a glimmer of hope for some of the other CHUDs that participated but didn't invade the building as deeply, but seems like slim odds. Doesn't seem like the prosecutors are that willing to be generous, and there's really not much leverage the defense has in the negotiation. The vast majority of these people are obviously guilty, with numerous camera angles and other evidence available.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 06:57 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed.

What these right-wing fabulists fail to understand is that "no harm, no foul" does not apply with a conspiracy - you don't have to actually go through with the planned crime - all that is needed is for two or more people plan a crime, and badaboom, you have a conspiracy!
In most jurisdictions, an overt act is required. Going to DC would be an over act in furtherance or the conspiracy. Planning alone is not enough.

A federal criminal conspiracy is built up of five elements:

Two or more persons that;
Intentionally;
Agreed;
To violate federal law or defraud the United States; and
Commit an overt act in furtherance of the agreement.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 07:00 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
In most jurisdictions, an overt act is required. Going to DC would be an over act in furtherance or the conspiracy. Planning alone is not enough.

A federal criminal conspiracy is built up of five elements:

Two or more persons that;
Intentionally;
Agreed;
To violate federal law or defraud the United States; and
Commit an overt act in furtherance of the agreement.
This case has an abundance of evidence proving a criminal conspiracy, but to be honest just the video of the column moving in concert to breach the police line would probably be enough on it's own to meet all these criteria.

All the texts and organizing in advance is just extra nails into the coffin. These guys are well and truly ******.

Edit: Tracking down all the text chats is a useful endeavor because it could also implicate members of this conspiracy that were not on the scene during the attack. People who facilitated this scheme, even in just an organizational or support role, could be facing a conspiracy charge.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 02:39 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This case has an abundance of evidence proving a criminal conspiracy, but to be honest just the video of the column moving in concert to breach the police line would probably be enough on it's own to meet all these criteria.
Indeed!

Watch the first 20 seconds...

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Those people in the combat fatigues are the Oath Keepers listed in the recent superseding indictment, moving up the steps as described...

132. At 2:35 p.m., CROWL, WATKINS, SANDRA PARKER, YOUNG, STEELE, KELLY MEGGS, CONNIE MEGGS, HACKETT, and ISAACS joined together with others known and unknown to form a column or stack of individuals wearing Oath Keepers clothing, patches, insignia, and battle gear (the “Stack”). Together, the Stack maneuvered in an organized fashion up the steps on the east side of the Capitol—each member keeping at least one hand on the
shoulder of the other in front of them.

133. Towards the top of the steps, HARRELSON and DOLAN joined with the Stack.

134. At the top of the steps, the Stack joined and then pushed forward alongside a mob that aggressively advanced towards the Columbus Doors at the central east entrance to the Capitol, assaulted the officers guarding the doors, threw objects and sprayed chemicals towards the officers and the doors, and pulled violently on the doors.

This is a trained military manoeuvre, and a clear overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
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Old 3rd June 2021, 02:55 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Apparently the guy who put his feet up on Pelosi's desk is selling autographed copies of that photo for $100 a piece. I'm sure his lawyer is thrilled.
That profit can and likely will be confiscated. You cannot profit from a crime.
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Old 4th June 2021, 07:48 AM   #237
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Oh look! Projection!

https://www.rawstory.com/capitol-rio...qnV8Od7wwU6SZc
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Old 4th June 2021, 09:46 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
This case has an abundance of evidence proving a criminal conspiracy, but to be honest just the video of the column moving in concert to breach the police line would probably be enough on it's own to meet all these criteria.

All the texts and organizing in advance is just extra nails into the coffin. These guys are well and truly ******.

Edit: Tracking down all the text chats is a useful endeavor because it could also implicate members of this conspiracy that were not on the scene during the attack. People who facilitated this scheme, even in just an organizational or support role, could be facing a conspiracy charge.
Well, I suppose an argument could be raised that you got caught up in the moment, and did not agree to do anything with anyone else. But if you were part of the email / reddit / text group it strips that argument bare.

In theory, everyone who clicked "I'm going" to the Storm Area 51 raid nonsense, would have conspired the moment anyone so much as bought a ticket to Nevada, or placed a room reservation. If it was just an "interested" then you could argue that you were simply interested in watching this train wreck but not participating. So I could see how someone could be on those threads about storming the capitol and not be part of the conspiracy but they would be walking a fine line.
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Old 4th June 2021, 09:59 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
I'm starting to realise more and more than outlandish accusations are often made to cover one's own crimes.
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Old 4th June 2021, 03:29 PM   #240
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Immediately after the Capitol putsch:

You can tell it was BLM in disguise because REAL Trump supporters would never support violence, those are clearly BLM and Antifa tactics.

Immediately after Michael Flynn suggests the US should have a coup 'like in Myanmar':

Preach it brother, yeehaw!
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