IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 29th August 2021, 10:00 PM   #241
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,886
Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
I didn't stock up on anything. TP was usually low in the store, but there was always enough. Sometimes stores ran out of original flavor ramen. I don't know, I must have got lucky and I just couldn't be bothered to panic

I stocked up on fishing lures.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 12:02 AM   #242
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,324
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just like masks and social distancing got us through the pandemic without overwhelming hospitals and funeral homes (or it was supposed to had people cooperated), a vaccine that wears off quickly will get us further down the road.
I feel like THAT can't be stressed enough, because that's one thing that idiot anti-vaxers invariably miss. It's not JUST the deaths by Corona itself. If the hospitals and/or ambulances are stuffed because of the extra corona cases, a lot of extra people start dying of other causes. You get a heart attack and the ambulance doesn't come in time because everyone was busy with a Corona outbreak getting out of hand, you die. You get an accident on the highway, same deal, you die. Etc.

If a vaccine isn't perfect, but can keep that from happening, huzzah.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th August 2021, 12:11 AM   #243
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 19,324
Also, for the gang going, "OMG, government tyranny"... here's the deal: if you only endanger yourself, I'm even tempted to encourage you to keep at it and get a Darwin Award. Sure, go hiking in the desert or climbing mountains without a rope or whatever. Nobody's going to stop you. BUT, and that's a big fat BUT, if you endanger the others around you, guess what? They get to have a say in it too. You don't get to unilaterally decide what risk level should everyone ELSE be ok with around you.

And it's not even a new deal. It's how we've been operating all along. We require people to take an exam before they operate a motor vehicle. We forbid people from driving while drunk. We require buildings to conform to a safety code. Etc.

Why? Because when something ends up endangering others, no, it's no longer just some imaginary right to do whatever you damn please.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 30th August 2021 at 12:13 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2021, 11:28 AM   #244
marting
Master Poster
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,799
Denmark eliminating all Covid-19 restrictions including vaccine passports, etc.

Denmark says Covid is no longer a ‘socially critical disease.’


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/27/w...?smid=em-share

Quote:
Denmark, whose health minister said on Thursday that the country had fully vaccinated 80 percent of residents over age 12, will no longer consider Covid-19 a “socially critical disease.” It will drop all Covid restrictions as of Sept. 10.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st September 2021, 12:50 PM   #245
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
That's good news for once! 80% vaccination is outstanding, but then, they've always been a nation of clever people.

If it goes well, it will show the textbook response to Covid, with a death rate of only 0.04%.

Good place to keep an eye on, especially in light of Israel.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2021, 07:45 AM   #246
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 11,610
The OP is a perfect distillation about a certain type of conservative smugness that is very common, where every call for action to deal with a problem is cavalierly dismissed as hysterical alarmism.

Looking back at recent history, it's hard to argue that it isn't the story of alarmists being right.

The alarmists were right about the dangers of covid should we not contain its spread.
The alarmists were right about the dangers of uncontrolled climate change.
The alarmists were right about the resurgence of fascism and other radical right political projects.
The alarmists were right about Afghanistan.
The alarmists were right about Iraq.
The alarmists were right about the Patriot Act and the erosion of civil rights.
The alarmists were right about out of control police.

The alarmists are right about damn near everything. Ignoring these alarms isn't cool-headedness, it's burying your head in the sand.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 2nd September 2021 at 08:05 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd September 2021, 10:32 PM   #247
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The OP is a perfect distillation about a certain type of conservative smugness that is very common, where every call for action to deal with a problem is cavalierly dismissed as hysterical alarmism.

Looking back at recent history, it's hard to argue that it isn't the story of alarmists being right.

The alarmists were right about the dangers of covid should we not contain its spread.
The alarmists were right about the dangers of uncontrolled climate change.
The alarmists were right about the resurgence of fascism and other radical right political projects.
The alarmists were right about Afghanistan.
The alarmists were right about Iraq.
The alarmists were right about the Patriot Act and the erosion of civil rights.
The alarmists were right about out of control police.

The alarmists are right about damn near everything. Ignoring these alarms isn't cool-headedness, it's burying your head in the sand.

__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 04:32 PM   #248
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,101
Am I being alarmist posting confirmation that three children, including a baby, are in ICU in Sydney?

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...ab28896c675d64

Quote:
A baby and a child aged under 10 who are both being treated for Covid have been placed on ventilators to breathe in a Sydney intensive care unit as the number of Covid infected children climbs to 2000.
The Atheist will no doubt find a way to dismiss this as panicking. To me, it’s a tragedy.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 04:42 PM   #249
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Am I being alarmist posting confirmation that three children, including a baby, are in ICU in Sydney?

https://www.news.com.au/world/corona...ab28896c675d64



The Atheist will no doubt find a way to dismiss this as panicking. To me, it’s a tragedy.
A. Crickets!
B. Only three?
C. Whataboutism
D. Overly dramatic


Amirite?
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 04:54 PM   #250
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,101
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
A. Crickets!
B. Only three?
C. Whataboutism
D. Overly dramatic


Amirite?
100%
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 06:27 PM   #251
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Am I being alarmist posting confirmation that three children, including a baby, are in ICU in Sydney?
Looks like it to me.

First off, I note you don't bother telling the whole story, likely because it doesn't fit your narrative. From your link:

Quote:
Importantly, all three children have underlying health conditions.
Some other numbers for you:

Nine kids a week die in Australia, and 730 are taken to hospital.

(I'm also even more skeptical now about the claims of "children in ICU in Sydney due to Covid" made here on 25 August. The idea that these kids have been in ICU for ten days is a stretch too far, I think.)

How are those three tiny babies on the NICU in Melbourne going? None died, I see. Four neonates in NICU catch Covid in the ward and don't die. Deadly for children indeed. What you're actually telling me is that so far, zero children without existing health issues have been placed in ICU in all of Australia.

Further panic noticeable here yesterday, with screaming headlines about one death in Auckland.

Of a 90-year-old woman with such extensive morbidities pre-infection they couldn't ventilate her.

Tragic.

How's that elimination strategy in Victoria you were boasting about going?
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 06:34 PM   #252
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Looks like it to me.

First off, I note you don't bother telling the whole story, likely because it doesn't fit your narrative. From your link:



Some other numbers for you:

Nine kids a week die in Australia, and 730 are taken to hospital.

(I'm also even more skeptical now about the claims of "children in ICU in Sydney due to Covid" made here on 25 August. The idea that these kids have been in ICU for ten days is a stretch too far, I think.)

How are those three tiny babies on the NICU in Melbourne going? None died, I see. Four neonates in NICU catch Covid in the ward and don't die. Deadly for children indeed. What you're actually telling me is that so far, zero children without existing health issues have been placed in ICU in all of Australia.

Further panic noticeable here yesterday, with screaming headlines about one death in Auckland.

Of a 90-year-old woman with such extensive morbidities pre-infection they couldn't ventilate her.

Tragic.

How's that elimination strategy in Victoria you were boasting about going?
C. it is then
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 07:47 PM   #253
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,101
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Looks like it to me.

First off, I note you don't bother telling the whole story, likely because it doesn't fit your narrative. From your link:



Some other numbers for you:

Nine kids a week die in Australia, and 730 are taken to hospital.

(I'm also even more skeptical now about the claims of "children in ICU in Sydney due to Covid" made here on 25 August. The idea that these kids have been in ICU for ten days is a stretch too far, I think.)

How are those three tiny babies on the NICU in Melbourne going? None died, I see. Four neonates in NICU catch Covid in the ward and don't die. Deadly for children indeed. What you're actually telling me is that so far, zero children without existing health issues have been placed in ICU in all of Australia.

Further panic noticeable here yesterday, with screaming headlines about one death in Auckland.

Of a 90-year-old woman with such extensive morbidities pre-infection they couldn't ventilate her.

Tragic.

How's that elimination strategy in Victoria you were boasting about going?
And you ignored this:

Quote:
Quote:
“These children have underlying health conditions, but are in intensive care due to Covid-19,” a spokeswoman said.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th September 2021, 08:08 PM   #254
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And you ignored this:
Yeah, I should have added...

E. Handwave
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 01:41 PM   #255
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
I'll just leave this here...

https://news.yahoo.com/sc-children-c...090000688.html

"More than 17,000 South Carolina children under the age of 10 have been diagnosed with COVID-19 in the six weeks since the state’s first schools opened their doors in late July."

"Children under 10 make up 12.4% of all COVID-19 cases over the last six weeks compared to just 3.7% of cases — the lowest of any age group — during the first six weeks of the 2020-2021 school year, according to state health department data."

"We have the most children we’ve ever had in our ICUs due to COVID,” said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands. “We have had five weeks of our ICU being at 100% capacity with (pediatric intensive care unit) holds in our (emergency department) except for two nights. That is unprecedented. Even in the worst flu seasons, we never went more than four or five days in a situation like that."

"This is impacting children like it has never impacted children in the state of South Carolina. Ever,” he said. “So we’re asking for your help. This is serious, it’s getting worse, the trends are not improving."

For context, South Carolina has a similar population to New Zealand... about 5 million
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 03:07 PM   #256
marting
Master Poster
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,799
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

"More than 17,000 South Carolina children under the age of 10 have been diagnosed with COVID-19 in the six weeks since the state’s first schools opened their doors in late July."

"Children under 10 make up 12.4% of all COVID-19 cases over the last six weeks compared to just 3.7% of cases — the lowest of any age group — during the first six weeks of the 2020-2021 school year, according to state health department data."

"We have the most children we’ve ever had in our ICUs due to COVID,” said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands. “We have had five weeks of our ICU being at 100% capacity with (pediatric intensive care unit) holds in our (emergency department) except for two nights. That is unprecedented. Even in the worst flu seasons, we never went more than four or five days in a situation like that."

"This is impacting children like it has never impacted children in the state of South Carolina. Ever,” he said. “So we’re asking for your help. This is serious, it’s getting worse, the trends are not improving."

For context, South Carolina has a similar population to New Zealand... about 5 million
Adding some additional info on the numbers of children hospitalized from the Yahoo piece.

Quote:
The South Carolina Children’s Hospital Collaborative, which collects data from the state’s four children’s hospitals, reported Friday that 34 children in South Carolina were hospitalized with COVID-19. Seventeen of those children were in intensive care units and eight were on life support, according to the organization.
None of the children hospitalized with COVID-19 are vaccinated, despite nearly half of them being eligible for shots, the SC Children’s Hospital Collaborative said.
Get your kids vaccinated if eligible! And FDA, Pfizer need to get their butts in gear on lowering the age of vaccinations.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 03:41 PM   #257
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,101
Unfortunately we in Australia don’t yet have a vaccine approved for under 12s. Hopefully we will soon.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 03:54 PM   #258
marting
Master Poster
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,799
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Unfortunately we in Australia don’t yet have a vaccine approved for under 12s. Hopefully we will soon.
The USA doesn't either. Which means the majority of those hospitalized are over 12. Would be nice to know how many of those hospitalized were <10 since the scary case numbers were all about cases in the under 10 y/o group. Looks like it's the older kids getting seriously sick.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 04:52 PM   #259
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And you ignored this:
I didn't ignore it, I highlighted it.

Without the pre-existing conditions, they almost certainly wouldn't be in ICU.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I'll just leave this here...

"We have the most children we’ve ever had in our ICUs due to COVID,” said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands. “We have had five weeks of our ICU being at 100% capacity with (pediatric intensive care unit) holds in our (emergency department) except for two nights. That is unprecedented. Even in the worst flu seasons, we never went more than four or five days in a situation like that."
Without knowing what that capacity is, it's a meaningless statement.

As you say, NZ and SC are about the same population.

NZ has around 80 PICU beds in the entire country. I'd expect SC has two or three times as many, and if we're generous and say 5 times as many ever, that's all of 400 kids.

Like I keep saying, panicking over numbers...

Question for you and Lionking - that he keeps failing to answer, so I'll give you a shot as well:

What number of children is ok to be in an ICU with Covid?

If it's zero, expect to stay at level 3 forever, because kids are all going to get it.

Originally Posted by marting View Post
The USA doesn't either. Which means the majority of those hospitalized are over 12. Would be nice to know how many of those hospitalized were <10 since the scary case numbers were all about cases in the under 10 y/o group. Looks like it's the older kids getting seriously sick.
The numbers would scarier if they were actual numbers. Percentages hide a lot.

"The most", "X%%"

Some numbers would help with perspective.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 04:59 PM   #260
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by marting View Post
The USA doesn't either. Which means the majority of those hospitalized are over 12. Would be nice to know how many of those hospitalized were <10 since the scary case numbers were all about cases in the under 10 y/o group. Looks like it's the older kids getting seriously sick.
Yes. It looks very much as if this version is a lot more likely to kill young people than the earlier versions, but some people prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend its not happening. It shows that what DeSantis and his right-wing goon squad are doing in Florida with respect to school mask mandates is just sheer lunacy... and, DeSantis has been busted trying to fiddle the Florida death stats to make it look not as serious as it is.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 05:39 PM   #261
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes. It looks very much as if this version is a lot more likely to kill young people than the earlier versions, but some people prefer to bury their heads in the sand and pretend its not happening.
There's a universe of difference between ignoring something and saying it's overblown panic. Yes, the virus kills kids! OMFG!1!!!

But very, very few of them, and I'd bet almost exclusively those with serious pre-existing conditions.

Ironically, the panicked people are ignoring the potentially lifelong harm done by kids missing months of schoolwork. Or, in the case of Victoria, almost a year's worth of schoolwork, and for what? They've ended up with the worst of both worlds - 200+ days of economic and educational harm and it's completely failed to stop the virus.

Yay for Dan Andrews, the Covid hero!
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #262
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I didn't ignore it, I highlighted it.

Without the pre-existing conditions, they almost certainly wouldn't be in ICU.
And if they were not infected with Covid, they wouldn't be in ICU either!

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Without knowing what that capacity is, it's a meaningless statement.

As you say, NZ and SC are about the same population.

NZ has around 80 PICU beds in the entire country.
Wrong. We have ONE PICU unit in the whole country.

https://www.nzma.org.nz/journal-arti...tional-network

"In New Zealand, there are approximately 4.6 critical care beds per 100,000 population. These are distributed throughout 29 ICUs/HDUs (adult and mixed), one PICU."

Its at Starship Hospital and it has 22 beds

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/starsh...2CMBXLEOKFDFI/

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I'd expect SC has two or three times as many, and if we're generous and say 5 times as many ever, that's all of 400 kids.
NZ has 358 ICU beds total (4.6 per 100,000)

https://www.health.govt.nz/system/fi...1_may_2020.pdf

SC has 1,459 [18 per 100,000]

https://www.kff.org/other/state-indi...2:%22asc%22%7D

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Like I keep saying, panicking over numbers...

Question for you and Lionking - that he keeps failing to answer, so I'll give you a shot as well:

What number of children is ok to be in an ICU with Covid?

If it's zero, expect to stay at level 3 forever, because kids are all going to get it.



The numbers would scarier if they were actual numbers. Percentages hide a lot.

"The most", "X%%"

Some numbers would help with perspective.
https://www.wltx.com/article/news/he...6-22aaa37f88fb

"The week of June 10th, there were just 173 cases for 11-20-year-olds and as of last week [@ 1 September], that number has increased to 7,713."

Its now September 5 in the US, and the number will have climbed a lot. If I had to guess, looking at the data here which doesn't give specific data for children...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...vid-cases.html

I would say its over 9,000 now.

Those numbers won't bother you though. I'm sure you will be able to spin / handwave / fabricate justification for why you think the suffering of 9,000 kids and their families is insignificant
.
.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th September 2021, 05:54 PM   #263
marting
Master Poster
 
marting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,799
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I didn't ignore it, I highlighted it.

Without the pre-existing conditions, they almost certainly wouldn't be in ICU.



Without knowing what that capacity is, it's a meaningless statement.

As you say, NZ and SC are about the same population.

NZ has around 80 PICU beds in the entire country. I'd expect SC has two or three times as many, and if we're generous and say 5 times as many ever, that's all of 400 kids.

Like I keep saying, panicking over numbers...

Question for you and Lionking - that he keeps failing to answer, so I'll give you a shot as well:

What number of children is ok to be in an ICU with Covid?

If it's zero, expect to stay at level 3 forever, because kids are all going to get it.



The numbers would scarier if they were actual numbers. Percentages hide a lot.

"The most", "X%%"

Some numbers would help with perspective.
Apparently there are less than 40 pediatric ICU beds in all of South Carolina. And, as I posted earlier, nearly half of the ICU patients could have been vaccinated so were 12 y/o or older. Leaves less than 20 kids under 10 y/o.

Aug 26.
https://www.postandcourier.com/healt...231000dc9.html

Quote:
Across South Carolina, more than 30 children are currently hospitalized with the coronavirus. Sarah Pack/MUSC
...
Nearly three dozen children across the state are currently hospitalized with COVID-19, according to the collaborative’s data, and at least three pediatric patients are now ventilated.
...
Inside South Carolina’s four children’s hospitals, the pediatric intensive care units are running between 71 percent and 100 percent full. On Aug. 25, between the four facilities, 12 children were in holding patterns in the emergency departments. They all needed a hospital bed. None were available.
__________________
Flying's easy. Walking on water, now that's cool.
marting is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 04:11 PM   #264
Carlotta
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 626
No, no, you don't understand! Those aren't children, they're numbers!

Last edited by Carlotta; 6th September 2021 at 04:13 PM.
Carlotta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 04:13 PM   #265
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
No, no, you don't understand! Those aren't children, they're numbers!
*Shakes you* STOP PANICKING!

(Insert the scene from Airplane! here)
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 04:38 PM   #266
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
No, no, you don't understand! Those aren't children, they're numbers!
Yep. To paraphrase what someone said earlier?

"Some of these children might die, but that is a risk I am prepared to take"
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 04:45 PM   #267
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shakes you* STOP PANICKING!
(Insert the scene from Airplane! here)



Your wish is my command!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 04:55 PM   #268
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And if they were not infected with Covid, they wouldn't be in ICU either!
I notice you're avoiding the main point - how are you going to stop kids being infected? Close school forever?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Wrong. We have ONE PICU unit in the whole country.
I know, my daughter in law works at it.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Its at Starship Hospital and it has 22 beds
Yet had 38 kids in it during the RSV epidemic. It has surge capacity to around 80.

Thanks for highlighting something I've posted, though - the disgrace of Cindy and her minions allowing capacity to fall well below needs.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Those numbers won't bother you though. I'm sure you will be able to spin / handwave / fabricate justification for why you think the suffering of 9,000 kids and their families is insignificant


"Suffering" Jesus H Christ.

I repeat, how are you going to stop this hideous suffering? Are you going to put all children into isolation?

Oh look, someone with some numbers that actually mean something!

Originally Posted by marting View Post
Apparently there are less than 40 pediatric ICU beds in all of South Carolina.
So, very similar to NZ. No doubt they also have surge capacity, so probably 100 beds available.

100 kids.

Out of a population of 1,000,000 children.

I make that a rate of one in every ten thousand children.

That is indeed the child apocalypse! (not aimed at you, marting, nor is the rest, but thanks for posting accurate data!)

I commend people to look at the description of "panic" again. Irrational response. And if there's anything less rational than destroying the education of 999,900 children to stop 100 going to hospital I'd be very hard pressed to find it.

And even then...

Originally Posted by marting View Post
And, as I posted earlier, nearly half of the ICU patients could have been vaccinated so were 12 y/o or older. Leaves less than 20 kids under 10 y/o.
20 kids.

Out of 1,000,000.

It is tragic that any kid goes to hospital, and I will note that my youngest son spent two weeks in Starship three years ago, most of the time with three ingoing and three outgoing tubes, including a major operation that removed 30 cm of his small intestine I know exactly what it feels like to have a kid seriously ill.

It is a much greater tragedy to deprive all children of education to protect a minuscule percentage of them.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.

Last edited by The Atheist; 6th September 2021 at 05:04 PM.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:05 PM   #269
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,886
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
There's a universe of difference between ignoring something and saying it's overblown panic. Yes, the virus kills kids! OMFG!1!!!

But very, very few of them, and I'd bet almost exclusively those with serious pre-existing conditions.

Ironically, the panicked people are ignoring the potentially lifelong harm done by kids missing months of schoolwork. Or, in the case of Victoria, almost a year's worth of schoolwork, and for what? They've ended up with the worst of both worlds - 200+ days of economic and educational harm and it's completely failed to stop the virus.

Yay for Dan Andrews, the Covid hero!

Life long harm from missing school - that's quite a claim. All the over the top worry over kids missing some school makes me laugh. The real problem is that school is daycare and parents can't work.

Life long harm! Getting sick from Covid has caused life long harm in many children, but they didn't die so...shrug.
__________________
Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:07 PM   #270
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by Carlotta View Post
No, no, you don't understand! Those aren't children, they're numbers!
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Shakes you* STOP PANICKING!
Thanks for the terribly amusing responses.

Instead of posting highly non-pith-worthy, idiotic, comments, please help these other guys answer the question they've been assiduously avoiding:

What do you propose doing to stop the tragedy of 0.02% of children ending up in hospital with Covid?
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:09 PM   #271
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,610
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What do you propose doing to stop the tragedy of 0.02% of children ending up in hospital with Covid?
I guess we let them die since anything else is "panicking."

*Cue the "I never said that, show me where I said that, that's a strawman" routine*
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:23 PM   #272
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Life long harm from missing school - that's quite a claim. All the over the top worry over kids missing some school makes me laugh.
Yeah heck, mea culpa making such outlandish claims. Glad I gave you a laugh though.

Oh, wait - don't argue with me about it, I'll believe you, but you need to talk to: UNESCO

Quote:
School closures carry high social and economic costs for people across communities. Their impact however is particularly severe for the most vulnerable and marginalized boys and girls and their families. The resulting disruptions exacerbate already existing disparities within the education system but also in other aspects of their lives.
Also from UNESCO,

The National Academy of Sciences in USA,

and the British Medical Journal, just for starters, because there appears to be a wealth of high-quality scientific research saying closing schools is negative.

I'm sorry I put more weight in that research than some random geezer on the internet. I'll change my ways immediately - ****, those scientists, pediatricians and child mental health experts are wankers.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
The real problem is that school is daycare and parents can't work.
Is it? I didn't know that, so thanks. Funny how none of those papers, me, or anyone else mentioned it.

You're a legend mate, knowing all this cool stuff that nobody else on the planet is aware of.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Life long harm! Getting sick from Covid has caused life long harm in many children, but they didn't die so...shrug.
Yep, and even though 0.001% of them may die, we should use your superior knowledge and analysis to keep schools closed forever.

That bloody selfish 99.999%!
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:24 PM   #273
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess we let them die since anything else is "panicking."

*Cue the "I never said that, show me where I said that, that's a strawman" routine*
Thanks for that.

I asked you a genuine question, and your response is all that needs be said - you don't even have a vague suggestion of what to do so resorted to type.

Extremely well played.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:41 PM   #274
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I notice you're avoiding the main point - how are you going to stop kids being infected? Close school forever?
Mask mandates for a start, then vaccinations when they become available for under 12 yos

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I know, my daughter in law works at it.)
Evidence that this is true? (I remind you of your conversation with Norman Alexander!)

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I repeat, how are you going to stop this hideous suffering? Are you going to put all children into isolation?
See my first comment above.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I commend people to look at the description of "panic" again. Irrational response. And if there's anything less rational than destroying the education of 999,900 children to stop 100 going to hospital I'd be very hard pressed to find it.
What an exaggeration, and load of utter horsecock? You're panicking about something that isn't a thing. No children are having their educations destroyed. Ever heard of "remote learning". Plenty of kids do remote or home schooling and they never spend a day of their lives in a classroom, yet they go on to live fruitful, enjoyable and full lives... must be a miracle

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
And even then...

20 kids.

Out of 1,000,000.
And your point is?

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It is tragic that any kid goes to hospital, and I will note that my youngest son spent two weeks in Starship three years ago, most of the time with three ingoing and three outgoing tubes, including a major operation that removed 30 cm of his small intestine I know exactly what it feels like to have a kid seriously ill.
So do I, and that is why I would never wish it on any other parent, not even if it was only one in a million

That you have had that experience, and then take the position you do makes that position even more vile and disgusting that I thought.

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It is a much greater tragedy to deprive all children of education to protect a minuscule percentage of them.
Education is more important than life itself.. got it!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 05:47 PM   #275
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What do you propose doing to stop the tragedy of 0.02% of children ending up in hospital with Covid?
Nice bait and switch fail

You keep bleating about percentages being meaningless, and demand that your adversaries come up with actual numbers, so we do come up with actual researched and sourced numbers, and you go right back to using percentage as a crutch.


You've moved the goalposts around so much they are back where they started!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 09:18 PM   #276
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 30,180
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Mask mandates for a start, then vaccinations when they become available for under 12 yos
So, sometime after Christmas. Schools stay closed until then, right?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What an exaggeration, and load of utter horsecock? You're panicking about something that isn't a thing.
Same as I said before - we have the unresearched, unverified, personal opinion of some random bloke on the internet against an enormous body of meticulously researched evidence by scientists and pediatricians across the world.

You clearly didn't look at the links.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Education is more important than life itself.. got it!
Do you even read, bro?

We're talking about 20 kids in ICU against 999,980 not in ICU. You obviously don't even begin to understand the greatest good.

You have no clue, and no answers, which is why you continue to avoid the question.

What is an acceptable level of harm from Covid in children?

The crickets are deafening.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Nice bait and switch fail
Except it's nothing of the kind. I repeat, do you even read?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You keep bleating about percentages being meaningless, and demand that your adversaries come up with actual numbers, so we do come up with actual researched and sourced numbers, and you go right back to using percentage as a crutch.
Utter bollocks, the numbers you came up with were nonsense, which is why I thanked Marting for producing actual data.

And I've taken pains to use both percentages and actual numbers, but your inability to read missed that point too. If you had 50% (0.5, 1/2) of a clue you wouldn't even have gone there, but anything other than answer the simple question.

Your responses are increasingly pathetic and desperate.

Here, I'll try again:

What is an acceptable level of harm from Covid in children?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You've moved the goalposts around so much they are back where they started!
Alas, posting nonsense does not make it true.

I haven't moved position at all, which is that education of the overwhelming, almost total, majority, is more important than saving the very tiny number of children who will get sick and/or die.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 09:43 PM   #277
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
What is an acceptable level of harm from Covid in children?
What is an acceptable level of harm from Covid in children?
NONE!

There is NO level of harm to children that is acceptable to me. There may be a level of harm I might have to tolerate, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it!

NOTE: If you decide to answer DO NOT SNIP OUT THE SECOND SENTENCE ABOVE. It qualifies the first sentence. If you snip it out, then you are being dishonest.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 09:46 PM   #278
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
So, sometime after Christmas. Schools stay closed until then, right?
Is there a shortage of masks that would have us waiting until Christmas?

Also, you ignored this bit...

"Ever heard of "remote learning". Plenty of kids do remote or home schooling and they never spend a day of their lives in a classroom, yet they go on to live fruitful, enjoyable and full lives."

This is a fact you cannot ignore. You've got your evidence and links, I have mine

https://parents.education.govt.nz/pr...ome-education/

https://www.businessinsider.com/reas...18-1?r=AU&IR=T
"Research suggests homeschooled children tend to do better on standardized tests, stick around longer in college, and do better once they're enrolled. A 2009 study showed that the proportion of homeschoolers who graduated from college was about 67%, while among public school* students it was 59%."

Most of this research finds that being homeschooled does not harm children's development of social skills, as measured in these studies. In fact, some research finds that homeschooled children score more highly than children who attend school on measurements of socialization.
*Note for British readers: in NZ a public school actually is what those in teh UK would call a State School. What is know as a Public School in the UK (Eton, Harrow, Winchester etc) are called Private Schools in NZ.


https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/ind...e-homeschooled
"Just over 6000 Kiwi kids were taught at home last year [2017]. These students belong to 3022 families, and the average age of homeschoolers was 12."
And its on the rise, becoming ever more popular...

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/...ing-enrolments
"The jump to a total of 7192 children followed several years in which home education has been rising by about 200 per annum. But home educators told RNZ they expected a much bigger jump following the national lockdown, which forced 800,000 school children to learn from home."

"The Covid-19 pandemic has driven the biggest-ever increase in home-schooling enrolments, with 619 more children learning from home in July this year than at the same time last year."
None of this is your "pandemic panic", what it is, is plain ordinary Kiwi commonsense!!!

Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
I haven't moved position at all, which is that education of the overwhelming, almost total, majority, is more important than saving the very tiny number of children who will get sick and/or die.
Then I find your position morally repugnant!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!

Last edited by smartcooky; 6th September 2021 at 10:18 PM.
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 10:21 PM   #279
rdwight
Muse
 
rdwight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 894
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
NONE!

There is NO level of harm to children that is acceptable to me. There may be a level of harm I might have to tolerate, but that doesn't mean I have to accept it!
The truth is, as parents, the acceptable level is - hopefully not our kids. No level of harm is impossible. One of my kids has been in the hospital for the flu twice. I still send him to school. Even though there are terrible parents that knowingly send their kids to school sick. Every. Single. Year.

It sucks, and I love my kids. But there is no safe place for them, and they are at risk all the time. Whether it's being in the car, or playing at the park, parents accept certain risks. We hope and try our best so that we aren't the outlier, but much like the risks associating with vaccination, we take the chance. To put it all in perspective, there has been a total of 2 deaths in the 5-17 age range in my entire state during this pandemic in regards to covid. That probably makes the rate at worst 1 death/100k cases. Maybe that is not acceptable, but where exactly should the cut off be if it requires kids to miss out on regular life?
rdwight is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th September 2021, 11:05 PM   #280
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,400
Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
The truth is, as parents, the acceptable level is - hopefully not our kids. No level of harm is impossible. One of my kids has been in the hospital for the flu twice. I still send him to school. Even though there are terrible parents that knowingly send their kids to school sick. Every. Single. Year.

It sucks, and I love my kids. But there is no safe place for them, and they are at risk all the time. Whether it's being in the car, or playing at the park, parents accept certain risks. We hope and try our best so that we aren't the outlier, but much like the risks associating with vaccination, we take the chance. To put it all in perspective, there has been a total of 2 deaths in the 5-17 age range in my entire state during this pandemic in regards to covid. That probably makes the rate at worst 1 death/100k cases. Maybe that is not acceptable, but where exactly should the cut off be if it requires kids to miss out on regular life?
I didn't not say no level harm was a possibility - I said no level of harm is acceptable. The difference is a lot more than semantics.

Yeah, hopefully not my kids, but some people are selfish, they are singularly incapable of empathising for anyone else's situation but their own. Oh sure they make all the right noises and say all the right things, but deep down they actually don't give a rat's arse!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:35 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.