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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th September 2021, 01:04 PM   #161
Louden Wilde
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
Stonewall UK surreptitiously re-defined same-sex attraction as same-gender attraction, as pointed out before.
Good point - I should have mentioned a major part of the problem here is that we have official institutions pushing the ideology.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:08 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So what if someone thinks less of you for refusing to date trans people? Why does that matter, both to you personally or generally?
The questions are, why would anybody think less of you for that? And, why do some people believe they are morally justified for thinking less of you for that.

Nobody thinks less of heterosexual men for being attracted to women. Nobody thinks less of homosexual men for being attracted to men. Why would that judgement change just because their gender identity runs counter to that attraction?
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:09 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?
That's silly. No, they shouldn't march over and demand an apology, that's a horrible thing to do.

On the other hand, the male should also not be mocked, derided, scorned, or called a transphobic bigot if all of their lust evaporates as soon as they learn that the beautiful person they're looking at has an 90% chance of having a penis.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
Again, this is silly. The male shouldn't feel slighted... but they also shouldn't be harassed, labeled, or denigrated for terminating the relationship or for losing their sexual attraction to the female.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:11 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm using a phone, so detailed answers are difficult, but I wanted to say one thing.

The idea that a man's thoughts would only turn to sexual intercourse after several dates is highly unrealistic.

And it does affect the answers to your other questions. More later.
Fair point I'm sure there are exceptions, but by and large, the idea of sex is probably present from prior to the first date for both parties. The actual undertaking might take several dates... but the thoughts are likely there from the start. That's kind of why dating is a thing in the first place.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:13 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The questions are, why would anybody think less of you for that?
Because if you follow the "gender and sex is 100% a matter of persona decree" that's where you kind of have to wind up unless you can maintain cognitive dissonance forever.

"Fake it until you make it" works with bad arguments. If you have to parrot a bad argument because you're scared you won't be seen as "woke" enough if you don't, eventually you'll start to believe it on an intellectual level and when that happens it is a lot harder to ignore its less savory conclusions any longer.

It's not that (statistically) anyone right now thinks that we all have to be "genital blind." It's that there are people who are literally in the process of inevitably talking themselves into.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fair point I'm sure there are exceptions, but by and large, the idea of sex is probably present from prior to the first date for both parties. The actual undertaking might take several dates... but the thoughts are likely there from the start. That's kind of why dating is a thing in the first place.
One thing that just occurred to me is that people select prospective partners from a dating pool that already filters for their overall sexual preference. No hetero woman starts dating another woman to see if there might end up being a love connection. This puts a transman who successfully passes as male in an awkward position. On the one hand, he probably owes it to any prospective date to let them know up front that he's not actually in their dating pool. On the other hand, telling someone, "actually, I'm female" kind of defeats the whole purpose of transitioning and passing.

Unlike LJ's bizarre "overheard in a restaurant" scenario, a woman who went o a date with a transman, believing they were male and hoping for a love connection, probably is justified in feeling misled when they discover that their date is actually female.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
So we're back to nutpicking again.
This sort of thing is the entire reason that so many LGB are splitting off from historically LGBTQ+ organizations. Literally, they are being told that they are bigots and transphobes because they are same-SEX attracted.

If this is "nutpicking"... then it's nutpicking on a damned almond plantation!
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:18 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
They talked of transwomen and transmen, but not about genitals.

Yeah, right.
Below are all the mentions of genitals in the article, and some of the authors conclusions:
Again, I think once you've asserted that gender is more important than sex, you kind of have to push the idea that genitals are trivial


At present, we know very little about what the average cisgender person knows or thinks of trans bodies. Trans scholars have commented on cisgender people’s preoccupation with the sexual anatomy of trans people, relating it to a form of cissexist sexualization that ultimately reduces trans people to the state of their genitals (Serano, 2007). Considering this preoccupation with the genitals of trans people, what do cisgender participants imagine in terms of trans bodies, and how might this impact their consideration of trans people as
potential dating partners?

While it is important to be accepting of individuals’ identities
regardless of their anatomy, when it comes to real-life dating decisions, knowledge of, and questions about, trans bodies may be a pivotal factor in understanding the willingness of some to date trans partners. In other words, combined with the cisgender privilege of simply not needing to consider trans persons as potential dating partners in order to have a sufficiently large dating pool, sheer ignorance of transgender identities may be a very likely explanation for exclusionary response patterns. It is important to state, however, that while ignorance may play a role in the high rates of exclusionary responses, such ignorance is still indicative of widespread cisgenderism and cis-privilege within today’s society.

Finally, even among the trans-identified participants, there was still evidence of exclusionary and incongruent response patterns. This may be due to internalized cisgenderism and feeling that one’s own gender identity will be best affirmed by dating a cisgender person of the gender of one’s desire (e.g., a heterosexual trans man dating a cisgender heterosexual woman)
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:20 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because if you follow the "gender and sex is 100% a matter of persona decree" that's where you kind of have to wind up unless you can maintain cognitive dissonance forever.

"Fake it until you make it" works with bad arguments. If you have to parrot a bad argument because you're scared you won't be seen as "woke" enough if you don't, eventually you'll start to believe it on an intellectual level and when that happens it is a lot harder to ignore its less savory conclusions any longer.

It's not that (statistically) anyone right now thinks that we all have to be "genital blind." It's that there are people who are literally in the process of inevitably talking themselves into.
I'm well aware of your position. I'm hoping ST will make some concrete positive declaration of his own values and reasoning about the question.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:23 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
PEOPLE LIKE GENITALS. Of all the things that shouldn't need a study.
Inorite?

Big surprise: members of sexually dimorphic species, who reproduce strictly through the mixing of two distinct gametes are strongly predisposed to react to sexual dimorphic characteristics when it comes to copulation!

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Old 15th September 2021, 01:24 PM   #171
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Back in the late 90s/early 2000s when Sodomy Laws were being overturned and it was a big thing, basically that forgotten first act of the Gay Marriage debate, you saw a certain defensive argument A LOT.

"Nobody is saying gays are going to start getting married. Only the fringe and the extremists are saying that. We're just saying it shouldn't be illegal for them to have sex. That's all."

And that was nonsense and I knew it then. "They can have sex, but they can't get married" isn't a long term tenable position. If you argue for equality of gay sex, you don't leave yourself an intellectual argument to deny gay marriage. Arguing for one is arguing for the other down the road.

Now I'm not stupid I know as well as anyone the real argument was "Listen if we argue for gay marriage we going to freak the homophobes out so nobody say it" (See also basically insert like half the dialog from the movie Lincoln here.)

So you have to be careful about the base arguments you use. Saying, either directly or indirectly "Oh it doesn't matter I'm only using this argument at this step to get to the next step where it won't count anymore" is like a chess player telling you don't worry this move isn't about future moves. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

And it's especially not how it works when and if any this gets codified into laws. To argue that "Don't worry this law won't be used as precedent in future laws" is to argue against what the law is.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:25 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The questions are, why would anybody think less of you for that? And, why do some people believe they are morally justified for thinking less of you for that.

Nobody thinks less of heterosexual men for being attracted to women. Nobody thinks less of homosexual men for being attracted to men. Why would that judgement change just because their gender identity runs counter to that attraction?
Perhaps you have me confused for someone else. I don't defend the weirdos who demand that people treat trans and cis women as identical in the dating market.

My point has always been that the demands of a few fringe voices doesn't really have much to do with what is actually being discussed regarding public policy, which has more to do with public accommodation and non-discrimination law.

I don't really see what the dating preferences of super open minded genderqueer people have much to do with whether or not they can take a piss in a certain restroom or not.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:25 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
You are aware there are people who have less binary preferences in this regard, even outside the scope of trans identity.
Sure, but even people who identified as bisexual had a strong preference for people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are in alignment. They like males who look like males and have male reproductive equipment, and they like females who look like females and have female reproductive equipment.

Even bisexual people rarely like males who look like females or females who look like males.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:26 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
I don't think the authors asked about genitals
The absolute state of the trans-inclusionary argument. LOL.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:27 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Perhaps you have me confused for someone else. I don't defend the weirdos who demand that people treat trans and cis women as identical in the dating market.

My point has always been that the demands of a few fringe voices doesn't really have much to do with what is actually being discussed regarding public policy, which has more to do with public accommodation and non-discrimination law.

I don't really see what the dating preferences of super open minded genderqueer people have much to do with whether or not they can take a piss in a certain restroom or not.
Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:28 PM   #176
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Genitals. Minor side detail. Why most days I forget I even have them.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:28 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?

I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing...


(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
First of all, being attracted to someone does not mean that you are interested in dating them. Nor does it imply that you are sexually compatible.

There are a number of reasons that two people could be sexually incompatible including an inability or unwillingness of one partner to have sex in the manner that the other deems necessary for their satisfaction.

And sexual incompatibility is a legitimate reason to end a dating relationship. No one needs to apologize for their sexual needs, limits, desires, anatomy, etc.

Removing someone from the dating pool because of sexual incompatibility does not imply or excuse the kind of behavior you describe here. Yes, there are people who will do that type of thing. But it's not inherent to the question of "are you willing to date a person who ______."
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:28 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure, but even people who identified as bisexual had a strong preference for people whose primary and secondary sexual characteristics are in alignment. They like males who look like males and have male reproductive equipment, and they like females who look like females and have female reproductive equipment.

Even bisexual people rarely like males who look like females or females who look like males.
Another entry in the "just trust me bro" file.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:28 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
... in real life it's waaaaay more meat and potatoes....
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
...and then when you get home you find that it's actually meatloaf and the frosting is mashed potatoes...
Seems to be a meat & potatoes kind of day, I guess
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:29 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm guessing this is another one of your "just trust me bro" assertions?
No, this is another of those cases where you've been given repeated references and links and demonstrations, and you brush them off as either being "anecdotal" or "nutpicking".

Basically, reality doesn't agree with what you think it ought to be like, so you ignore anything that doesn't fit your pre-determined belief set.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:31 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another entry in the "just trust me bro" file.
Dude your entire contribution to this thread has been "Just trust me bro" and then the every few weeks one of the bros in question sticks their head in the conversation goes "That's totally not what I'm saying. This dude doesn't speak for me."

Again you have constantly presented yourself as the Lorax for the Transgender Trees and been massively wrong about it multiple times and the Trees called you Treephobic.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:31 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again we can't get that past the "OMG so we're going to have to setup genital checkers!" argument.

I don't disagree with it per se, just that as anything beyond a thought experiment it's dead on arrival.
I think a "no penis" area could work. We don't check for cigarettes when we let someone into a no-smoking area. Smokers are free to keep their cigarettes with them with the understanding that they will not use them in order to respect the rights of others in that particular area.

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Old 15th September 2021, 01:31 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No, this is another of those cases where you've been given repeated references and links and demonstrations, and you brush them off as either being "anecdotal" or "nutpicking".

Basically, reality doesn't agree with what you think it ought to be like, so you ignore anything that doesn't fit your pre-determined belief set.
Maybe if you stopped nutpicking anecdotes we could get through this impasse.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:32 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Genitals. Minor side detail. Why most days I forget I even have them.
Just realized I kind of burned myself with that one...
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:32 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Dude your entire contribution to this thread has been "Just trust me bro" and then the every few weeks one of the bros in question sticks their head in the conversation goes "That's totally not what I'm saying. This dude doesn't speak for me."

Again you have constantly presented yourself as the Lorax for the Transgender Trees and been massively wrong about it multiple times and the Trees called you Treephobic.
Yes, my radical position that has been the law of the land in Canada for several years without major incident.

The recurring theme of this thread is a ton of doomsaying, hyperbolic nonsense from the anti trans side that routinely fails to materialize in anything beyond "black crime" spamming levels of discourse.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:36 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Lol

Maybe calipers might help.
I don't understand your scoffing at that post.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:39 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah just like that aunt or uncle we all had with the "roommate" coming out as gay came as a total surprise to all of us as well.
Yeah, I fondly remember my mother's female sibling coming out and being surprised that the rest of us already knew they were homosexual. Somehow they seemed to think that 25 yrs worth of "roommates" and never a male date to be seen was a good cover.

I also had several friends in high school and college who came out and were shocked that the general response was "Are you just now figuring out that you're same-sex attracted? Pal, we've known that for years!"
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:46 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Genitals. Minor side detail. Why most days I forget I even have them.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:49 PM   #189
Louden Wilde
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.
I'm curious to read up on that! Interestingly (to me, at least) across mammalian species, reduced sexual dimorphism is associated with monogamy (e.g. gibbons, the monogamous species of deer mice).
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:51 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Alt+F4 View Post
I think a "no penis" area could work. We don't check for cigarettes when we let someone into a no-smoking area. Smokers are free to keep their cigarettes with them with the understanding that they will not use them in order to respect the rights of others in that particular area.
I think in many cases it would work fairly well.

Like I've said countless times before... if a person passes well enough that nobody is likely to look at them askance, then no harm done. If, however, they expose genitals that aren't supposed to be there, they should expect to be asked to leave, and should honor that request.

That solves for the vast majority of social situations - restrooms, changing rooms, locker rooms, etc. It shouldn't be that hard to use common sense.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:53 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
I'm curious to read up on that! Interestingly (to me, at least) across mammalian species, reduced sexual dimorphism is associated with monogamy (e.g. gibbons, the monogamous species of deer mice).
I'd like to read up on it too! It was something told to me by someone who hypothetically knows about this, so I'm far from knowledgeable myself.

I did find some stuff tracking differences in height and differences in foot size between males and females by country, I'll see if I can find it again.
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Old 15th September 2021, 01:54 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yes, my radical position that has been the law of the land in Canada for several years without major incident.
Except for each of the major incidents already cited.
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Old 15th September 2021, 03:33 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'd like to read up on it too! It was something told to me by someone who hypothetically knows about this, so I'm far from knowledgeable myself.

I did find some stuff tracking differences in height and differences in foot size between males and females by country, I'll see if I can find it again.

Deleted- computer issues.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:18 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Perhaps. But that's frequently not worthwhile.



Well, no. Obviously you don't. Oh, I'm sure you frequently extend certain courtesies to people which they desire, but only within bounds that you have set. And when they want to be treated outside the bounds that you set, no, you absolutely won't treat them the way that they want to be treated. And that is right and proper, to do otherwise is simply to invite being exploited and victimized yourself. The only question is, where do you set the limits of what you're willing to accommodate? Because I guarantee that you have limits somewhere.
Why are people replying to what I have said with convoluted arguments of their own making? Arguing with themselves?

I've read to page 2, replied with this. I need to keep reading the thread.

edit: ok cool.

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Old 15th September 2021, 04:19 PM   #195
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Ok. Now, back to this.

Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?
That would be stupid, and you know it, and there really is no meaningful connection.
Quote:
I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing...
I wouldn't say "entirely" unrelated. I would say that there is just enough connection that it might be used to mislead people away from the obvious issue, which has no meaningful similarity to what you have described above.


Quote:
(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
This one, on the other hand, is a bit closer.

First, as noted before, it is incredibly unlikely that it took several dates for the man's thoughts to turn to sexual intercourse. It probably happened before the first date, and certainly before the second, assuming the people involved are both young and single.

Now, exactly when, and how, the woman ought to reveal this issue is very complicated, and is influenced by culture, religion, their individual personalities, their other relationships, and a whole host of factors. However, in general, one partner, frequently the male, and in this case it was stipulated as the male, makes a certain amount of investment (of time, effort, money, something or some combination of somethings) in getting the woman to bed. At some point, it is very, very, obvious that that is exactly what the partner, in this case, the male, is doing. When it becomes obvious, yes, she ought to reveal this problem, and if she allows him to continue investing without revealing it, he really, really, ought to feel cheated.

In the case of the woman being a transwoman, that secret should be revealed very early on, really before any significant investment at all. Like thePrestige said, that would be a case where the woman isn't even in the eligible dating pool, and the guy really needs to know that, quickly.

The medical issue isn't a great analogy to the secret that the target of the man's affections is a transwoman. It's not bad, but it could be better. A better analogy, although still not perfect, would be a situation where the pursued female is hiding the fact that she is, despite all appearances, actually 14 years old. That's the kind of thing that needs to be out there on the table as early as it possibly can be.

ETA: Also, see Emily's Cat's response. It covers some aspects I didn't.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:29 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's not that (statistically) anyone right now thinks that we all have to be "genital blind." It's that there are people who are literally in the process of inevitably talking themselves into.
On point: https://the-orbit.net/alyssa/2020/07...al-preference/

(I think EC already shared this one upthread, but it's a good example of where the successor ideology is gradually taking us on this specific issue.)

Quote:
A lot of people are a lot more compatible with variant genitals than they think they are and leaving “preference” as an easy out means they never feel that giving folks like us a chance is something they could, let alone should, do.
Pretty sure "variant genitals" is a euphemism for sexually functional penises here, but this statement is probably true nonetheless. If Kinsey taught us anything, it's that people are compatible with much more sexual variety than they tend to admit in everyday discourse.

ETA: If indeed "almost everything about most transfeminine penises [is] surprisingly different from cismasculine penises" then even experienced bisexuals might need to learn a new sexual skillset in order to successfully date trans women. This strikes me as a potentially daunting obstacle when hookup apps make it very easy to swipe to the next potential candidate.
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:49 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
On point: https://the-orbit.net/alyssa/2020/07...al-preference/

(I think EC already shared this one upthread, but it's a good example of where the successor ideology is gradually taking us on this specific issue.)
The part of that which really makes me scratch my head is at the very beginning:

Quote:
As a trans lesbian who herself finds one genital configuration more aesthetically and sexually desirable than the other, I come at this topic from a distinct perspective.
This is a transgender identified male who is strongly attracted to females, and strongly desires sexual interaction with female genitalia... who is essentially arguing that females who are attracted to females and female genitalia should be open to accommodating their male genitalia... because... they should be challenging their assumptions about how gender relates to genitalia?
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Old 15th September 2021, 04:55 PM   #198
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Anyone else getting a queasy "converting" or "turning" feeling about this? Like how some toxic elements in the LGB community think about turning straight people gay, or how some toxic straight people think they're gonna turn a gay person straight?

"I know you think you're not into dick, but if you see me as a woman and fall in love with me on that basis, I bet you'll love my dick too, when you find out the truth. So how about I just hide that from you until you're ready?"
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:00 PM   #199
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Oh good lord. I just got suspended from a different forum because sex-denialism has taken over.

A poster was talking about a genderfluid friend of theirs sometimes wanting to be referred to by a male name, and sometimes by a female name. Then they said that their friend wasn't "out" at work, and they passed as a woman and used the women's facilities.

I asked whether their friend was male or female, because it would be rather easy for a female to pass as a woman, and less easy for a male to do so.

They responded by saying "Umm... sometimes they are male and sometimes they are female, I thought that was obvious".

I responded by saying that's not possible. Sex is fixed during fetal development. What they were talking about was gender identity being fluid, thus sometimes a 'woman' and sometimes a 'man'. But their friend can only be either male or female, and cannot switch between the two sexes depending on how they feel at the time.

And that resulted in a suspension.

This is genuinely some flat earth crap.
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Old 15th September 2021, 05:12 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
And that resulted in a suspension.

This is genuinely some flat earth crap.
To be fair, it could just be part of vocabulary issues. With no standard definitions of male/female versus man/woman, they might have some issue.

On the other hand, that gets to one of the points made by JoeMorgue. It's not just a case that one side uses one set of definitions, while the other side uses a different set of definitions. The problem is that some people very prominent in the debate and very active in the discussions refuse to use any definitions at all.

That leads us to a discussion about whether penises and vaginas actually matter in sexual relations, and that is, genuinely, flat earth crap.
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