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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 15th September 2021, 05:47 PM   #201
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyone else getting a queasy "converting" or "turning" feeling about this?
A bit, yeah.

Weird thing is, if someone had a rare sexual fetish (for, say, tightly bound feet) then these same progressive thinkers would be tripping over themselves to be the first to take a public stand against kink shaming.

Evidently everyday sexual preferences don't get nearly the same leeway.
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:19 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, it could just be part of vocabulary issues. With no standard definitions of male/female versus man/woman, they might have some issue.

On the other hand, that gets to one of the points made by JoeMorgue. It's not just a case that one side uses one set of definitions, while the other side uses a different set of definitions. The problem is that some people very prominent in the debate and very active in the discussions refuse to use any definitions at all.

That leads us to a discussion about whether penises and vaginas actually matter in sexual relations, and that is, genuinely, flat earth crap.
re the highlighted:
Some people are genuinely attracted to the personality of a person, the genitals they have are a secondary matter, why would that be flat earth crap?
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:02 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re the highlighted:
Some people are genuinely attracted to the personality of a person, the genitals they have are a secondary matter, why would that be flat earth crap?
It's true. I have a number of close friendships that don't have anything to do with our respective genitalia.

Meanwhile, people passing as a different sex shouldn't hide the truth about their genitalia in the hopes that when their love-seeking friend won't care anyway.
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Old 15th September 2021, 08:08 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re the highlighted:
Some people are genuinely attracted to the personality of a person, the genitals they have are a secondary matter, why would that be flat earth crap?
You can find "some people" genuinely attracted to darned near anything.

Are there people who don't care about genitals? Yes, there are. And that's fine.

But the conversation lately started when researchers expressed surprise when they found out that, for an awful lot of people, genitals matter. Whoa! Who could have seen that one coming? This one just really had those folks scratching their heads. Even in this enlightened age, how could that be the case?

Yes, it's true. Most people actually care about that stuff between the legs. It's not just weirdos and bigots.


More than discussing whether or not people care about genitals, it's more a matter for most of us ridiculing people who call themselves scientists studying human sexuality who were surprised. It shouldn't surprise anyone, much less someone who studies this for a living.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:27 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Louden Wilde View Post
Again, I think once you've asserted that gender is more important than sex, you kind of have to push the idea that genitals are trivial
That doesn't hold unless you assert that gender is more important than sex in every single context.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:31 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You'll never get past the "OMG so you're saying we have to set up genital inspectors" argument to get anywhere with that on a functional level, so any argumentative benefits are pointless.
Not really--the situation this was suggested for was one where a person would be expected to be seen nude. No inspector needed.
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:36 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, because it doesn't address the core issue here, which is actually: in which changing room should transwomen change in this sort of facility? Or should transwomen simply not be welcome to visit (or perhaps not even permitted to visit) these sorts of facilities?
Sure it does. Someone proposing a policy has to say what the objective is. Is it to prevent someone looking like a man from being seen in the ladies' room? Or is it to address a question of risk? In the case of bathrooms I think most potential objections fail the reasonableness check, so allowing someone to choose whichever one they are most comfortable with seems the most reasonable.

In communal changing spaces or sports or prisons I don't think it's as easy to say anything goes. And that's because there's potentially a more reasonable objection, but it needs to be expressed clearly to resolve it.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:22 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, it could just be part of vocabulary issues. With no standard definitions of male/female versus man/woman, they might have some issue.

On the other hand, that gets to one of the points made by JoeMorgue. It's not just a case that one side uses one set of definitions, while the other side uses a different set of definitions. The problem is that some people very prominent in the debate and very active in the discussions refuse to use any definitions at all.

That leads us to a discussion about whether penises and vaginas actually matter in sexual relations, and that is, genuinely, flat earth crap.
"Orwellan" is the term you are looking for.
Control the debate through control of the language until certain thoughts cannot even be expressed.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:24 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Except for each of the major incidents already cited.
In Canada? I don't recall any of note. Refresh my memory.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:26 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
A bit, yeah.

Weird thing is, if someone had a rare sexual fetish (for, say, tightly bound feet) then these same progressive thinkers would be tripping over themselves to be the first to take a public stand against kink shaming.

Evidently everyday sexual preferences don't get nearly the same leeway.
Yeah, if you think about it, the large heteronormative majority that is constantly reassured by society that their way of life is the correct one is actually the oppressed victim here. Very insightful.
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
That doesn't hold unless you assert that gender is more important than sex in every single context.
This assertion seems to be implicit or explicit in every argument by trans-inclusionists where the distinction matters.

Preferred pronouns are obviously an assertion of the primacy of gender.

The accesssion of transwomen to positions representing women, including in matters of diversity hiring, is another obvious assertion of the primacy of gender.

Then of course there's the big one we've been debating here: Access to sex-segregated spaces. In restrooms, locker rooms, women's shelters, and women's sports, there is the assertion that gender is more important than sex.

Then there's Boudicca's rather extreme (but certainly not unique) assertion that the biological underpinnings of her gender identity disorder are actually what define her sex.

About the only context in which the primacy of gender over sex has not been asserted has been in the bedroom. And even there, I think that some are already asserting it.

So yeah, I can't think of any context of importance where trans-inclusionists don't assert that gender is more important than sex.

ETA: Ah! Medical care. And even there, trans-inclusionists push for as much gender-oriented care as possible.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:03 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Yeah, if you think about it, the large heteronormative majority that is constantly reassured by society that their way of life is the correct one is actually the oppressed victim here.
It's sort of amazing how some folks feel the need to reframe everything in terms of oppression.

My question remains, why is it considered good to have a norm against kink-shaming but not one against shaming non-kinky sexual preferences (e.g. PIV)?
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:05 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
It's sort of amazing how some folks feel the need to frame everything in terms of oppression.
I agree. It's wild the way reactionaries who enjoy the constant assurance of society that their way of life is valid have a persecution complex.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:12 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This assertion seems to be implicit or explicit in every argument by trans-inclusionists where the distinction matters.

Preferred pronouns are obviously an assertion of the primacy of gender.

The accesssion of transwomen to positions representing women, including in matters of diversity hiring, is another obvious assertion of the primacy of gender.

Then of course there's the big one we've been debating here: Access to sex-segregated spaces. In restrooms, locker rooms, women's shelters, and women's sports, there is the assertion that gender is more important than sex.

Then there's Boudicca's rather extreme (but certainly not unique) assertion that the biological underpinnings of her gender identity disorder are actually what define her sex.

About the only context in which the primacy of gender over sex has not been asserted has been in the bedroom. And even there, I think that some are already asserting it.

So yeah, I can't think of any context of importance where trans-inclusionists don't assert that gender is more important than sex.

ETA: Ah! Medical care. And even there, trans-inclusionists push for as much gender-oriented care as possible.
You can point out that some people inappropriately assert primacy of gender over sex in debatable context. However, my response was to Louden:

Quote:
Again, I think once you've asserted that gender is more important than sex, you kind of have to push the idea that genitals are trivial
This seems to imply that if you EVER assert that gender is more important than sex in ANY context, then you must believe it is so for all contexts.

And it may be that Louden does not mean that. It is a useful distinction anyway. The fact that some people insist on an unreasonable standard does not make everyone else who advocates wrong. The examples you give are far from how everyone advocates.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:17 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
It's wild the way reactionaries who enjoy the constant assurance of society that their way of life is valid have a persecution complex.
Edited by Darat:  Breach of rule 12 removed.

My question remains, why is it considered good to have a norm against kink-shaming but not one against shaming non-kinky sexual preferences (e.g. PIV)?
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:20 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re the highlighted:
Some people are genuinely attracted to the personality of a person, the genitals they have are a secondary matter, why would that be flat earth crap?
Some people literally think they possess the spirits of anime characters. I don't care.

Again this "Oh so you're saying genitals being important to sex should just be the default" is one of those "Stick your head outside of Tumblr blogs for a few seconds and live in reality for a while" cases of "You've lost the plot."
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:28 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
You can point out that some people inappropriately assert primacy of gender over sex in debatable context. However, my response was to Louden:



This seems to imply that if you EVER assert that gender is more important than sex in ANY context, then you must believe it is so for all contexts.
The actual implication is that the same activism that asserts that gender is more important in almost every other context where the distinction matters, must eventually assert that it's more important in the bedroom as well. And that is indeed the trend we are observing.

Quote:
And it may be that Louden does not mean that. It is a useful distinction anyway. The fact that some people insist on an unreasonable standard does not make everyone else who advocates wrong. The examples you give are far from how everyone advocates.
Of course it's not how everyone advocates. Louden's claim is that for the ones who do advocate that, they must eventually advocate it in the bedroom also.

And several of the examples I give are examples of the mainstream of trans-inclusionary advocacy. Pronouns are already a done deal. Equitable representation appears to be well-established, if not entirely normalized. Restrooms likewise. Locker rooms, shelters, prisons, and sports are well on their way. And to nobody's surprise (least of all Louden's), we're already hearing rumblings about the bedroom. Because once you start asserting that gender is more important than sex, you have to get to the bedroom sooner or later.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:58 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
ETA: Ah! Medical care. And even there, trans-inclusionists push for as much gender-oriented care as possible.
Recall the discussion from a couple of years ago about a man who checked into a maternity ward in order to give birth, and how the poorly educated staff failed to provide him proper care because they read his chart and just assumed that he could not be in labor.


(ETA: The above is written following the conventions I have adopted for use in this thread, but when I'm in the real world I will tell you that men can't have babies. As with sports leagues and such, if you really, really, want to insist that men can be pregnant, then whatever, but the solution to the problem is to insist that the maternity ward is a place for females, instead of women.)
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:08 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And several of the examples I give are examples of the mainstream of trans-inclusionary advocacy. Pronouns are already a done deal. Equitable representation appears to be well-established, if not entirely normalized. Restrooms likewise. Locker rooms, shelters, prisons, and sports are well on their way. And to nobody's surprise (least of all Louden's), we're already hearing rumblings about the bedroom. Because once you start asserting that gender is more important than sex, you have to get to the bedroom sooner or later.
That's right. We're in the last days of the cis hetero era. Soon, perhaps even sooner than you think, someone is coming to the home to forcibly sissify all us straight cis men with hormones and force us into gay trans poly relationships.

We've careened off the slippery slope into a dark pit with no bottom. All is lost.

Joking aside, I respectfully request you get a grip. These anti-trans horror stories are incredibly pathetic.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:44 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's right. We're in the last days of the cis hetero era.
And the plot thins. Like with everything else you don't care about or even understand the people or the topic, you just want to be part of the next revolution and make sure everyone knows it.

You want a windmill to tip, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:54 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Joking aside, I respectfully request you get a grip. These anti-trans horror stories are incredibly pathetic.
At some point, it's just an attempt at gaslighting.

Darren Merager is a real person. So is Laurel Hubbard. So are the high school girls in Palatine. Karen White? Real rapist. That academic paper cited by EC? Real journal. (Well...an awful lot of those journals are pretty questionable...) That pregnant man in my last post? Real person. His baby? Really dead.


And talking about these things is "incredibly pathetic" and we need to "get a grip"?

I get it. You fall back to insults, because that's all you've got.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:03 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Recall the discussion from a couple of years ago about a man who checked into a maternity ward in order to give birth, and how the poorly educated staff failed to provide him proper care because they read his chart and just assumed that he could not be in labor.


(ETA: The above is written following the conventions I have adopted for use in this thread, but when I'm in the real world I will tell you that men can't have babies. As with sports leagues and such, if you really, really, want to insist that men can be pregnant, then whatever, but the solution to the problem is to insist that the maternity ward is a place for females, instead of women.)
That is the root of the problem you think you are "solving".
There are perfectly adequate terms (trans-man, trans-women) for people who feel their gender and sex are misaligned in some manner. Allowing the language to be co-opted out of meaning is the source of the problem-not the solution.
Out of sympathy for the people who are having a difficult time dealing with their reality, we allow the discourse to be twisted. The intentions are good, but the outcome is not.
The twisted, meaningless, language is then used to deny the reality it is designed to describe and any "solution" becomes impossible because the problem becomes something that can no longer be described.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:05 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
That is the root of the problem you think you are "solving".
There are perfectly adequate terms (trans-man, trans-women) for people who feel their gender and sex are misaligned in some manner. Allowing the language to be co-opted out of meaning is the source of the problem-not the solution.
Out of sympathy for the people who are having a difficult time dealing with their reality, we allow the discourse to be twisted. The intentions are good, but the outcome is not.
The twisted, meaningless, language is then used to deny the reality it is designed to describe and any "solution" becomes impossible because the problem becomes something that can no longer be described.
Indeed.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:06 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
At some point, it's just an attempt at gaslighting.

Darren Merager is a real person. So is Laurel Hubbard. So are the high school girls in Palatine. Karen White? Real rapist. That academic paper cited by EC? Real journal. (Well...an awful lot of those journals are pretty questionable...) That pregnant man in my last post? Real person. His baby? Really dead.


And talking about these things is "incredibly pathetic" and we need to "get a grip"?

I get it. You fall back to insults, because that's all you've got.
Is there any meaningful difference between cherry picking trans criminals and one of Bogative's "black crime" spam threads?

Nobody is claiming that sex crimes don't occur, or that trans people, like all people, are sometimes criminals.

The question is whether adopting trans inclusive policies will lead to an explosion of violence or other antisocial behavior, and whether there is sufficient data (not anecdotes of scandalous individuals) to show that the there is a significant enough threat to justify discriminating against an entire class of individuals.

That's why I keep asking about Canada. It's been years. Where's the evidence of a massive uptick of harm? Not individual anecdotes, but real data. How little evidence of widespread, systematic harm in adopting these policies is required before you would concede that recognizing the rights of trans people is a good policy choice?

There is very real, irrefutable data about the dangers and indignities that trans people face as a result of being unprotected by the law.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:13 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And several of the examples I give are examples of the mainstream of trans-inclusionary advocacy. Pronouns are already a done deal. Equitable representation appears to be well-established, if not entirely normalized. Restrooms likewise. Locker rooms, shelters, prisons, and sports are well on their way. And to nobody's surprise (least of all Louden's), we're already hearing rumblings about the bedroom. Because once you start asserting that gender is more important than sex, you have to get to the bedroom sooner or later.

Amazing!
Apparently, I don't spend enough time in restrooms, locker rooms, shelters and prisons because I haven't noticed any of those things or even heard about them till now. I have heard that there is supposed to be some kind of problem with transexual athletes, but I have only read the headlines, and I personally wouldn't mind if trans athletes would ruin all competitive sports events forever. I don't participate in them and I don't watch them, and I tend to think that humanity would be better off without them.

But tell me more about the bedroom where I do spend time: What exactly is going to happen there, and what does it have to do with transwomen being or not being women?
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:34 AM   #226
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Massive? Explosion?

It only counts if it happens enough to be called an explosion?

And, you are only referring to sex crimes here. I also referred to violations of female modesty, sports results where males defeat females in a women's division, and at least one medical problem.

What would Bogative have to say about those? Hey wait a minute! Bogative isn't even participating here. You nearly tricked me into talking about something with absolutely no connection to the topic!

We get it. As long as the crime stats are low, it doesn't affect you, and those other things are not things you care about even if they were to happen a lot. Alana Smith and "Cubana Angel" are anecdotes. So, who cares?
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:36 AM   #227
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I could ask why "No I must use this bathroom. No this one and only this one. No not that one" is such a big deal but I'll just be a transphobe "denying their gender identity."

The "Why it such a big deal?" seems to be a question people only ask when it is convenient.

Jesus just everyone do Kegels and learn to hold it until you get back home and get rid of public bathrooms entirely.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:40 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I have heard that there is supposed to be some kind of problem with transexual athletes, but I have only read the headlines, and I personally wouldn't mind if trans athletes would ruin all competitive sports events forever. I don't participate in them and I don't watch them, and I tend to think that humanity would be better off without them.
It doesn't affect me, so who cares?
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:42 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
You can point out that some people inappropriately assert primacy of gender over sex in debatable context. However, my response was to Louden:



This seems to imply that if you EVER assert that gender is more important than sex in ANY context, then you must believe it is so for all contexts.

And it may be that Louden does not mean that. It is a useful distinction anyway. The fact that some people insist on an unreasonable standard does not make everyone else who advocates wrong. The examples you give are far from how everyone advocates.
theprestige captured what I was saying well. There are well known advocates who are pushing the idea that gender always triumphs sex - even that sex is a social construct. It's not a fringe movement at this point- we've done a fair amount of documentation of that in these threads (which I realize is a lot to take in).

Note - that's how I got into all this - my twitter at that point was mostly biologists - and I happened to see a grad student expressing outrage about someone saying that sex was binary in humans (& using disorders as evidence). I had no idea about the link to trans-activists. I quickly discovered that link and that that this ideology was widely taking hold. I also initially assumed JKR had said something really hateful, rather than (essentially) that sex matters.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:47 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I could ask why "No I must use this bathroom. No this one and only this one. No not that one" is such a big deal but I'll just be a transphobe "denying their gender identity."

The "Why it such a big deal?" seems to be a question people only ask when it is convenient.

Jesus just everyone do Kegels and learn to hold it until you get back home and get rid of public bathrooms entirely.
Why do you think trans people want to use restrooms according to their gender identity so badly?
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:48 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
But tell me more about the bedroom where I do spend time: What exactly is going to happen there, and what does it have to do with transwomen being or not being women?
This is an easy one. I don't even have to tell you about the bedroom. You're about to tell me. Consider these propositions, and tell me whether you agree or disagree:

Your gender identity is determined not by how you perceive yourself, but by how others perceive you.

For example, sexual attraction ("in the bedroom"): If you are sexually attracted to women, it doesn't matter if your prospective partner tells you they're a woman. If you perceive them to be a man, and are therefore not sexually attracted to them, this is the determining factor.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:53 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Why do you think trans people want to use restrooms according to their gender identity so badly?
Safety and perception of same. The exact same reason EmilyCat doesn't want them to, using the exact same argument, citing the exact same kind of figures, presenting it as the exact same kind of "I'm obviously on the right side because it's a matter of civil rights" way while claiming the exact same unshakeable moral high ground.

Again why should I make you happy over her? Hell if you want to go straight pure utilitarian there's a lot more of "her" to keep happy.

My choices are between "Transphobe" and "Rape enabler" and let me tell you those are both just sooooooooo tempting.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:57 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Safety and perception of same. The exact same reason EmilyCat doesn't want them to, using the exact same argument, citing the exact same kind of figures, presenting it as the exact same kind of "I'm obviously on the right side because it's a matter of civil rights" way while claiming the exact same unshakeable moral high ground.

Again why should I make you happy over her? Hell if you want to go straight pure utilitarian there's a lot more of "her" to keep happy.

My choices are between "Transphobe" and "Rape enabler" and let me tell you those are both just sooooooooo tempting.
Are the figures the same? Are the rates of trans people committing violent or harassing behavior in bathrooms the same as the rates in which trans people face the such risks?

All available evidence shows that the trans bathroom panic was entirely spurious.

Quote:
No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds
There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.
https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...-finds-n911106

How does this factor into a utilitarian analysis?
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:03 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are the figures the same? Are the rates of trans people committing violent or harassing behavior in bathrooms the same as the rates in which trans people face the such risks?

All available evidence shows that the trans bathroom panic was entirely spurious.



https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-...-finds-n911106

How does this factor into a utilitarian analysis?
Emily's Cat cited a 2016 study that said the opposite.

Eta:. Not taking a side on the quality of either study. Just noting that "all available evidence" might not include all the available evidence.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:04 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Are the figures the same? Are the rates of trans people committing violent or harassing behavior in bathrooms the same as the rates in which trans people face the same danger?
I don't care. I cannot stress how much I don't care.

Every racist has that "X make up Y percent of the population but commit Z percent of the crimes" stat memorized and I don't care about that either.

This isn't a numbers game on the level that makes a difference.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:05 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Emily's Cat cited a 2016 study that said the opposite.
I must have missed that, care to provide a link? There's a lot of posts here, I might never find it otherwise.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:07 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

This isn't a numbers game on the level that makes a difference.
What's the threshold for a small minority to matter to you? I do concede that there really aren't that many trans people, even compared to other historically oppressed minorities.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:18 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
What's the threshold for a small minority to matter to you? I do concede that there really aren't that many trans people, even compared to other historically oppressed minorities.
Tell you what. It's exactly the same percent of black people who commit crimes for you to argue to give them separate bathrooms.

You can't play the "oppressed minority" card when the evil oppressing majority is "women."
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:21 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Tell you what. It's exactly the same percent of black people who commit crimes for you to argue to give them separate bathrooms.

You can't play the "oppressed minority" card when the evil oppressing majority is "women."
I don't see how the arguments for excluding trans people couldn't be used in the exact same way to argue for segregation by citing black crime rates.

hell, the crime and race statistics actually exist, which is more than the trans bathroom panic mongers ever had.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:37 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see how the arguments for excluding trans people couldn't be used in the exact same way to argue for segregation by citing black crime rates.

hell, the crime and race statistics actually exist, which is more than the trans bathroom panic mongers ever had.
That is logically sound.
I reject the argument that segregating bathrooms is a "safety" issue.

It is a Privacy issue, based upon community standards.

A man who exposes his penis in the presence of a woman or girl outside of very specific sexual or medical circumstances is a pervert in any context. This has been and remains to be the community standard of indecent behavior throughout the lifetimes of every poster on this forum.

Changing the womens' name from Ellen to Ellis does not magically transform this behavior into something acceptable.
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