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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old 16th September 2021, 04:25 PM   #321
p0lka
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As also I do feel the need to do one of my periodic moments where I stop and do remind everyone that I do sort of get it.

Society has done a **** job of actually getting rid of stupid, unreasonable, unnecessary expectations put upon people because of their sex/gender. And it sucks. It is inexcusable that it's gone on this long for a lot of it.

But the fact we as a culture haven't gotten rid of "Women should be quiet and subservient" and "Men shouldn't show feelings" and every other stupid thing we're told we're have to do because we're this or that does not mean "Screw it, everyone just gets to choose which team they are on that will solve everything" is really a good answer.
re the highlighted: Yes I completely agree.
Oh I'm supposed to act a certain way cos society says I should? bollocks.

There has to be a way to get out of it though, maybe splitting gender and sex is better than doing nothing?
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:41 PM   #322
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Oops, I responded to the wrong post. Please ignore.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Real talk.

Is that answer any different from anyone exposing any genital to anyone?

I'm a dude and I don't want to see random dicks. I'm sure some broad whipping her vagina out at you on the bus isn't high on the list of things that will make your day better.

Can "Hey just don't show anyone your genitals until they buy you dinner" be the rule?
Do you acknowledge a relevant-to-this-discussion difference between a dick showing itself to a someone with a vagina versus a disk showing itself to a someone with a dick, or a vagina showing it self to a someone with a vagina, etc.?
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:46 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Good point.
Our traditional definitions and structures are being left behind by the faster changes over time that happen with words and meaning, due to the internet.

how to accept that progression, or whether you should, is interesting.

The progression seems to have gone:


1. Gender Roles are Social Constructs


to


2. Gender is a Social Construct



ending at


Biological Sex is a Social Construct
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Old 16th September 2021, 04:56 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any female to expose their genitals to males and children who do not wish to see those genitals?
1) Medical and sexual interactions where the exposure is expected for well understood reasons (sometimes a doctor may not want to see a particular bit of genitalia, but might still need to do so in order to do their job )
2) Shared spaces where it is understood by all parties that exposure may occur due to the nature of the space such as unisex or mixed sex toilets, showers, lockers; mixed sex saunas; nude beaches, etc. (Again, some people may not want to see those bits, but the nature of the space makes it likely, and by entering that space, all parties implicitly consent to the exposure)

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I flipped the sex, do you feel the same?
Yes, I do. I also notice that you didn't answer. So, your turn.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:00 PM   #325
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
The progression seems to have gone:


1. Gender Roles are Social Constructs


to


2. Gender is a Social Construct



ending at


Biological Sex is a Social Construct
That bit is where I get stuck, it's denying physical reality.

If physical male and female are social constructs, then what is everyone disagreeing over?
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:06 PM   #326
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any female to expose their genitals to males and children who do not wish to see those genitals?

I flipped the sex, do you feel the same?
I always figure someone isn't getting it when they flip the sexes and think that they are somehow showing something about something.

The sexes can't really be flipped. That's actually closely related to the problem itself. So, of course it is not appropriate for a female to exposer her genitals to males and children who do not wish to see them. However...

1) It isn't going to happen
2) In the rare event that it does happen, it might go into the "bizarre situations" thread, but I wouldn't be frightened.

If we stick to males exposing to females

1) It could happen
2) There's an implied threat if it does happen.

The end result is that for a guy seeing a naked woman, it probably won't happen but, if it does....uhhhh......cool. Whatever.

For a woman seeing a naked man, that's a real warning signal and get the hell away to a safe spot, unless there is something about the circumstances that makes it all ok. (e.g. a streaker at a baseball game isn't a real threat. It's a comedic performance. A flasher at the bus stop is a big red flag event.)

So, it's inappropriate regardless of gender, but when you flip the genders you change the issue.


(And I just realized I slipped into standard English there, instead of special wokespeak. Oh well. Im not feeling like editing.)
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:16 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
1) Medical and sexual interactions where the exposure is expected for well understood reasons (sometimes a doctor may not want to see a particular bit of genitalia, but might still need to do so in order to do their job )
2) Shared spaces where it is understood by all parties that exposure may occur due to the nature of the space such as unisex or mixed sex toilets, showers, lockers; mixed sex saunas; nude beaches, etc. (Again, some people may not want to see those bits, but the nature of the space makes it likely, and by entering that space, all parties implicitly consent to the exposure)


Yes, I do. I also notice that you didn't answer. So, your turn.
I was more interested in the flip than the question to be honest, but yes I basically agree with what you posted.

There are certain spaces where all parties implicitly consent to exposure, especially the examples you have given.

There seems to be a problem with seeing genitals in those very spaces you mentioned though, what's that about?
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:40 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I always figure someone isn't getting it when they flip the sexes and think that they are somehow showing something about something.

The sexes can't really be flipped. That's actually closely related to the problem itself. So, of course it is not appropriate for a female to exposer her genitals to males and children who do not wish to see them. However...

1) It isn't going to happen
2) In the rare event that it does happen, it might go into the "bizarre situations" thread, but I wouldn't be frightened.

If we stick to males exposing to females

1) It could happen
2) There's an implied threat if it does happen.

The end result is that for a guy seeing a naked woman, it probably won't happen but, if it does....uhhhh......cool. Whatever.

For a woman seeing a naked man, that's a real warning signal and get the hell away to a safe spot, unless there is something about the circumstances that makes it all ok. (e.g. a streaker at a baseball game isn't a real threat. It's a comedic performance. A flasher at the bus stop is a big red flag event.)

So, it's inappropriate regardless of gender, but when you flip the genders you change the issue.


(And I just realized I slipped into standard English there, instead of special wokespeak. Oh well. Im not feeling like editing.)
I had a group of females in bikinis walk past me about a month or so ago, it was when the UK hit 33 degrees so a hotter than normal day and one of them had no bottoms on at all. I chuckled. It does happen.

But yes, I think if it was a male then observers reactions might have been different.

Is it more of a threat though? or is it just perceived as more of a threat?

I personally do not care about nudity, don't see why it's an issue. I'm not religious and don't really have an ideology regarding it.

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Old 16th September 2021, 05:51 PM   #329
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Is it more of a threat though? or is it just perceived as more of a threat?
.
Depends on circumstances. If someone is flouting convention, they are behaving anti-socially. Someone behaving anti-socially in a sexualized manner is a perceived threat, because such behavior may very well be associated with an actual attack. A flasher is probably just a flasher, but might be a rapist.
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Old 16th September 2021, 05:55 PM   #330
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post

I personally do not care about nudity, don't see why it's an issue. I'm not religious and don't really have an ideology regarding it.
Do you know that others - many others - see it is an issue for them?
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:15 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
That bit is where I get stuck, it's denying physical reality.

If physical male and female are social constructs, then what is everyone disagreeing over?

Because they are not social constructs, but this idea that they are underlies the entire edifice of 'gender self-identification' that all anyone needs to do to change sex is to simply say that they are the opposite to what they physcially appear to be.


The key point is that gender and sex do have different meanings, like conspiracy theorists, critical theorists like to twist the meanings pf words to confuse the general populace.
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Old 16th September 2021, 06:42 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Do you know that others - many others - see it is an issue for them?
There are many others that have an issue with showing shoulders, bare bellies, arms, ankles, hair, or even faces.
I do know that many people have issues with that stuff, that is their issue. Maybe they shouldn't try and get everyone else to conform to their issues.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:56 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Is it more of a threat though? or is it just perceived as more of a threat?
Risk is a better description than threat, but yes, inappropriate male nudity is definitely more indicative of elevated risk than inappropriate female nudity. The reasons should be obvious, starting with the fact that violent sexual assaults are primarily committed by males, not females. Plus, of course, males are stronger than females. And antisocial male behavior (which ignoring social conventions is a risk indicator for) is more often associated with violence than female antisocial behavior.

Males and females are not equivalent. They do not act the same. A superficial similarity (inappropriate nudity) does not hold the same significance when done by a male and when done by a female. There is no actual mystery here, to believe otherwise requires indoctrination.
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Old 16th September 2021, 09:49 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
re the highlighted: Yes I completely agree.
Oh I'm supposed to act a certain way cos society says I should? bollocks.

There has to be a way to get out of it though, maybe splitting gender and sex is better than doing nothing?
I don't really care about separating sex and gender. I'm fine with that.

But it doesn't follow that things that were previously segregated by the formerly combined sex/gender default to being segregated by gender rather than sex. Or vice versa, to be honest.

So, for me, it comes down to examining the reasons for each case where something is segregated. I expect that in some cases there will be multiple reasons, some of which suggest gender and some that suggest sex.

For example, sports. Women's sports leagues exist, to my understanding, for two reasons:
  1. It was previously held that athletics (such as marathon running) were inappropriate pursuits for women. (This is a social reason, which suggests gender to me.)
  2. Due to biological differences, women are rarely competitive when competing against men. This suggests sex, to me.

If I examine those reasons, the first is no longer applicable as social norms have changed to the extent that it is acceptable for people of either gender to compete in athletics. The second, however, remains true as humanity has not evolved to a point where the physical disparity in athletic ability between the sexes has disappeared. Nor do I expect this to happen in the near future.

I would suggest examining reasons for other areas of segregation and attempting to address them when making changes, rather than just deciding that one reason is more important than another.
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Old 17th September 2021, 02:56 AM   #335
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I just want to clear some things up, since I've been brought back up in conversation again.

I've never thought SuburbanTurkey is a transphobe. In fact, he's one of the few true allies we trans people have on this board. Along with Archie, LondonJohn, Earthborn, and a couple others. They aren't always perfect in their views, but they are sure a hell of a lot more accepting and tolerant than most on here.

Secondly when it comes to the 'biological female' thing, while I do see myself as female and always refer to myself as such when I'm asked, I DON'T see myself as exactly the same as a cis female. Obviously I lack a female reproductive system and I have a Y chromosome, but ultimately I don't see that as mattering. I won't be referred to as a male. And my penis isn't a 'female penis', it's just a penis, so I don't know what people are talking about there.

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
If Wi Spa is correct in their claim that the California law which “prohibits discrimination against transgender and gender non-conforming people in business establishments” required them to allow Merager (who is reportedly legally female) into the women's side of the spa, then there is nothing you can do about it other than repealing that law.
This is correct. From what I understand of the situation, she was in a changing area when this happened. I live in California and occasionally have a spa day, and it would be perfectly fine for me to fully disrobe in them. I don't, because I don't like to be naked around strangers in public, so I opt for a private changing room instead. And I keep my penis to myself, so I don't make anyone uncomfortable. In my case I pass well enough that I blend in with everyone else, I don't know about her situation.
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Old 17th September 2021, 04:58 AM   #336
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I found this on Spiked (usual warnings apply)...


Quote:
Judith Butler’s name evokes adoration in some corners of academia. Not even her critics – and there are plenty of those – would dispute that Butler is among the most influential theorists in the world.

Her original claim to fame was her work on the ‘performativity’ of gender. This has influenced university departments the world over – it has even been deployed to analyse maths. Butler has been most influential on Gender Studies and Women’s Studies. Arguably her ideas on gender have relegated Women’s Studies to the sidelines.


...

The anti-gender ideology movement insists that sex is biological and real… [it] is not opposing a specific account of gender, but seeking to eradicate gender as a concept or discourse, a field of study, an approach to social power. The anti-gender movement circulates a spectre of gender as a source of destruction, but they never actually read any works in Gender Studies.
(Italics as per original)


https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/0...delined-women/


And here is the link to the Guardian interview:


https://www.theguardian.com/lifeands...terview-gender
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Old 17th September 2021, 05:04 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
This is correct. From what I understand of the situation, she was in a changing area when this happened.
I think Wi spa has entire floors in which nudity is normalized, like most traditional Korean spas.

From their web page:
Quote:
Our men’s and women’s floors are designed expressly for your comfort, and each features its own distinct luxurious decor. Here you will find hot and cold tubs, dry and steam saunas, treatment stations, showers, and all of the beauty and grooming facilities you would expect of a world class destination spa. Our co-ed floor, or jimjilbang is home to our not-to-be missed specialty mineral saunas, which we invite you to experience in sequence for optimal results.
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Old 17th September 2021, 05:25 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Do you acknowledge a relevant-to-this-discussion difference between a dick showing itself to a someone with a vagina versus a disk showing itself to a someone with a dick, or a vagina showing it self to a someone with a vagina, etc.?
Not really.

Again women don't "own" sexual victimhood.

At the very least I don't think the dick or vagina being attacked to someone who identifies as a woman or identifies as a man makes any difference.

Again that's right back to where we are at, started at, and can't leave.

We're being told that this:

*EmilyCat walks into women's dressing room at the gym and sees a penis.*
EmilyCat: "Get that penis out of here! This is the women's dressing room!"
Transperson: "No you see this I am a woman and this is my lady penis."
EmilyCat: "Oh I see. Well that totally changes things. That absolutely changes the fundamental reality of your penis being out in the women's dressing room."

Makes perfect sense and is how things are supposed to go.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:00 AM   #339
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think Wi spa has entire floors in which nudity is normalized, like most traditional Korean spas.

From their web page:
I'm pretty sure the nudity at Wi Spa wasn't in a changing room. One of the things that makes Darren's story absurd is "her" claim that the women are lying. She says no one saw her naked because she was in a hot tub with water covering her up to her chest. Even if that were true, how did she get in and out? Did she only disrobe after entering the water?

I think far more likely is that her claim that the women are lying is the childish style claims that often come from narcissists. Whenever people accuse them of anything, they immediately all the accusers liars. It's just a knee jerk reaction.

Very little has been published since the filing of charges. Maybe Darren really lives as a woman consistently, and so has every legal right to parade around naked in the presence of women and girls, or should I say "other" women and girls. I guess we'll find out. I doubt it, though, because I'm fairly sure some people at the LAPD and/or prosecutor's office that filed those charges understands the law, and they took two months to decide that Darren had broken it. I'm guessing they spent some of that time investigating whether Darren was "really" a woman.

What we know for sure is that an awful lot of women and girls in southern California have seen Darren's penis when "she" was not concealed in a hot tub. We also know that all of her arrest records call her Darren.

I'm strongly leaning toward creep on this one, but maybe more evidence will come out later.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:34 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not really.

Again women don't "own" sexual victimhood.

At the very least I don't think the dick or vagina being attacked to someone who identifies as a woman or identifies as a man makes any difference.

Again that's right back to where we are at, started at, and can't leave.

We're being told that this:

*EmilyCat walks into women's dressing room at the gym and sees a penis.*
EmilyCat: "Get that penis out of here! This is the women's dressing room!"
Transperson: "No you see this I am a woman and this is my lady penis."
EmilyCat: "Oh I see. Well that totally changes things. That absolutely changes the fundamental reality of your penis being out in the women's dressing room."

Makes perfect sense and is how things are supposed to go.

The "this is where we can't leave" aspect is why I've been saying that where this will likely end up is that showing (not merely having) a penis in the common areas of a women's changing room will be what's not permitted. It's not as though cis women would have been accepted flaunting strap-ons or prosthetic penises (whether anatomically realistic or not) in those facilities in the past. No one has ever had a penis-showing privilege there, that others are being denied.

This would of course making using those facilities somewhat less convenient for most trans women, for no fault of their own. Just like using those same facilities is somewhat less convenient for women who require wheelchairs for mobility, or who are too short to easily reach the top locker shelves, or who have impaired vision, or who have arthritis that makes it painful to manipulate the locker mechanisms, for no fault of their own.

Any other solution is either too complex or expensive (e.g. separate facilities for everyone), or throws one interest under the bus for minor gains by the other.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:44 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Some of you have a LOT more faith in this idea that there are separate "public" and "private" standards (and that those standards will forever be separate) then I do.

Again show me a Venn diagram of people who think "Blacks should use a separate water fountain is a racist idea" AND "I won't date a black woman is a racist idea" that isn't a perfect circle. Because it is a circle. If you think one and not the other you're not making sense.
The question isn't what someone thinks is a racist idea, but what someone thinks is other people's business and not other people's business. For the reasons I discussed above, I think there is not a lot of traction in pressuring people to change their dating/sexual choices. It's not a big thing in matters of race now, it's unlikely to become a big thing in matters of gender and sex.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:50 AM   #342
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I think Wi spa has entire floors in which nudity is normalized, like most traditional Korean spas.

From their web page:
Hmm, yeah if this is the case, then nudity is actually encouraged there. So there really shouldn't have been any problem. There would be no reason it would be illegal or wrong for her penis to be visible. Or mine for that matter, if I wasn't so self conscious about being nude in public.

I thought it was more like the spas I go to, where there is a changing area with both common and private sections and areas where you are expected to remain in a swimsuit and/or robe.
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:52 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
the dick or vagina being attacked to someone
Oh dear god!
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Old 17th September 2021, 06:59 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But some of the cultural rules necessary to make something like a coed nude space safe require a kind of cultural uniformity and cohesion that, frankly, large multicultural countries like the US cannot achieve.
It has nothing to do with the US or how large and multicultural it is. Other much smaller countries are also diverse and multicultural, with many people who would not want to be nude in front of others for various religious, philosophical or personal reasons. The solution should be obvious: don't have nude spaces except for those who specifically want them. Unless a space exists specifically for hanging out naked with other people and is specifically advertised as such, there should be individual private spaces.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I suggest talking about these with some real-life adult human females. Offices and Restaurants are just straight up silly to toss into this discussion.
They exist in Saudi Arabia, and are claimed to be for the protection of women against men. You might argue that Arabian men should learn to behave respectfully toward women, but with the level of sexual harrassment many women in the West experience in the office, you'll have to admit that the Saudis kinda sorta have a point.

The problem is that segregation of men and women supposedly for the benefit of women, just ends up restricting women's freedom.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:24 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The "this is where we can't leave" aspect is why I've been saying that where this will likely end up is that showing (not merely having) a penis in the common areas of a women's changing room will be what's not permitted. It's not as though cis women would have been accepted flaunting strap-ons or prosthetic penises (whether anatomically realistic or not) in those facilities in the past. No one has ever had a penis-showing privilege there, that others are being denied.
Okay but then at that point the whole thing as turned into "Plausible penis deniability" and it is completely and utterly detached from reality.

To paraphrase Virgil Earp "I'm not saying women can't have a penis, I'm not saying you can't carry your penis into the locker room, I'm just saying you can't have your lady penis out in the women's locker room!"

At that point can agree we've reached absurdity?

Even ignoring that all that does is take us right back to the point that if we're going to do that what's the point is segregating the areas at all?

It's not like a in a public bathroom people are whipping their genitals out and drying them with the air dryers or trimming their pubs at the communal sink.

What are even doing at this point?

"You can possess a penis in the women's bathroom, but it can only be out in the stall for the time it takes to urinate, for no more visibility then it takes to urinate. You only allowed two shakes when you are done, past that it considered both playing with it and putting it on display."

When we reached the point in the debate where we are seriously putting on the table a discussion that boils down to "What is the exact amount of penis exposure a woman can be subjected to in order to expect them to maintain overall penile plausible deniability as graphed on Chart A6, please check your appendixes for further...."

It's a penis. It's not the graphite fragments on the roof of Chernobyl where you can measure exposure to it in milli-rapes. There's no "Well you were exposed to a penis, but don't worry the exposure was low, there shouldn't be any long term effects." Either it's in the room or it is not. I don't think "Well it's there but it's not out so don't worry about" is whether side is going to accept this going to.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:28 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
Hmm, yeah if this is the case, then nudity is actually encouraged there. So there really shouldn't have been any problem. There would be no reason it would be illegal or wrong for her penis to be visible.
Well, that's the interesting thing about this case. The legal answer depends on whether Darren is really a woman, and I would assume that all the people filing the charges understood that aspect of the law. Therefore, they must have concluded that she was actually a man.

I'm not sure how that gets resolved. How does either the prosecution or the defense prove that Darren is a man, or that Darren is a woman? I suppose whatever it says on their drivers license might be a good place to start, but I haven't seen any reporting on the subject.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:38 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Maybe Darren really lives as a woman consistently, and so has every legal right to parade around naked in the presence of women and girls, or should I say "other" women and girls. I guess we'll find out. I doubt it, though, because I'm fairly sure some people at the LAPD and/or prosecutor's office that filed those charges understands the law, and they took two months to decide that Darren had broken it. I'm guessing they spent some of that time investigating whether Darren was "really" a woman.
If they filed a form DL-329 (Gender Designation Request) at the local DMV, then that's probably enough to show that they belonged in the women's floor at the spa. I'm not sure what other evidence may be adduced to show gender identity, but as you say, we'll find out.

Prediction: I expect the case will be quietly dismissed once the civil rights lawyers roll up to the table.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:42 AM   #348
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Well, that's the interesting thing about this case. The legal answer depends on whether Darren is really a woman, and I would assume that all the people filing the charges understood that aspect of the law. Therefore, they must have concluded that she was actually a man.

I'm not sure how that gets resolved. How does either the prosecution or the defense prove that Darren is a man, or that Darren is a woman? I suppose whatever it says on their drivers license might be a good place to start, but I haven't seen any reporting on the subject.
It's also true that her criminal history doesn't help the matter. I feel like that would be a factor regardless of gender in their decision.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:44 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The problem is that segregation of men and women supposedly for the benefit of women, just ends up restricting women's freedom.
Sex segregated restrooms do not restrict women's freedom. You don't see even the most ardent feminists clamoring to be allowed into men's restrooms.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:50 AM   #350
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Because we are using the word "segregation" when we mean something more akin to "quarantine."

We aren't trying to keep the genders/sexes separate, we are trying to protect one from the other.

The base idea here is that humans with penises are inherently dangerous and predatory and that women need spaces where they are not at for protection.

So a lot of this is one subgroup trying to go "No I don't count because I'm special."

We can't pretend this discussion exists (or indeed would make sense) in any other context.

That's what a lot of people are dancing around.

How much of the pro-trans argument if functionally: "No you see okay I'm a man... but not like a man man. See it's a coded word meaning I'm not a threat." If you think about that's why they probably react so strongly to being assume to they are a rapist in waiting to the exact same degree it is perfectly socially acceptable to assume such of a cis-man. "I'm sorry did you hear me? I just said I was one of the good ones."

Basically, and I've said this before, it's like we are trying to define the three genders as woman, man but defines as a woman so she's one of the good ones, and rapist.

Seriously step back and realize how many of the pieces fall into place if you rerun this conversation and realize how many people are using man and rapist interchangeably.
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Old 17th September 2021, 07:51 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You don't see even the most ardent feminists clamoring to be allowed into men's restrooms.
Are you discounting Mary Anne Case? She definitely sees a problem with keeping the men's rooms separate.

ETA: Found the full PDF.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:08 AM   #352
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58598186

Under-16s can take puberty blockers without parental consent, the Court of Appeal has ruled.

The appeal was brought by the Tavistock Trust, which runs the UK's only youth gender identity clinic.

The decision reverses a 2020 ruling that under-16s lacked capacity to give informed consent to the treatment, which delays the onset of puberty.

The original case was brought by Keira Bell, who says the clinic should have challenged her more over transitioning.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:35 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because we are using the word "segregation" when we mean something more akin to "quarantine."

We aren't trying to keep the genders/sexes separate, we are trying to protect one from the other.

The base idea here is that humans with penises are inherently dangerous and predatory and that women need spaces where they are not at for protection.

So a lot of this is one subgroup trying to go "No I don't count because I'm special."

We can't pretend this discussion exists (or indeed would make sense) in any other context.

That's what a lot of people are dancing around.
Is anyone dancing around that? If so, I don't know why they would. It's pretty basic.

At this point it is customary to say some variation of #notallmen, but in my opinion, it's really more like #notallthetime.

It's also exaggerated to say that we are all rapists in waiting, but women also want to avoid things that are sexually aggressive, but short of, usually far short of, rape. It may be as simple as an unwanted gaze or stare. Maybe a flirtatious comment. Maybe a violation of personal space in conversation. A lean. A touch.

And some of it is purely from the female side. If a man sees them, they tend to be very self conscious about their appearance. They usually want to look good, or maybe to look deliberately unattractive to avoid the gaze, or the flirtation, or whatever.

It's all rooted in sex, though. It includes, but is not limited to, awareness of rape.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:40 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Is anyone dancing around that? If so, I don't know why they would. It's pretty basic.
Well as in a lot of discussions now a days what people are "saying" and then what they turn around and argue for in the next breathe aren't exactly being similar.

If all agree that we're not separating the sexes/genders in the same way we separate the laundry but we're essentially creating quarantine zones where women can metaphorically let their hair down without keeping their rap-dar in active ping, then so much of this discussion makes absolutely no sense.

Again it goes back to my:

"Eeek a penis!"
"No you see it's a penis attached to a woman"
"Oh... whew I was worried there for a second"

: being this scenario we're actually to take seriously makes zero sense if we're actually protecting one demographic from another.
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Old 17th September 2021, 08:48 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Eeek a penis!"
"No you see it's a penis attached to a woman"
"Oh... whew I was worried there for a second"


I think you really have hit the nail on the head there.

I think I understand what you meant by "dancing around" now.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:02 AM   #356
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Well yeah. That's why we are on page 9 of the 7th continuation of this debate and literally gotten nowhere with it.

"I have 5 fingers!"
"You have 4 fingers and a thumb!"
"Okay everyone stop and recount your fingers!"
"I got the same answer!"
"So did I!"
20 GOTO 10.

It's stupidly obvious that both sides agree you have 5 digits and are just arguing over the definition of finger, but for some reason both sides keep arguing against the other side using their definition as if they aren't aware the other definition exists, as if even acknowledging that it exists as a different opinion will dirty them.

You should be able to argue against someone who thinks/doesn't think a biological person with a penis can be a woman without either agreeing with them or pretending they aren't be clear on what they are saying.

That's been the entire discussion. Someone makes an argument using their definition of sex/gender/man/woman/male/female and someone else will go "Oh so you're saying THIS!" using their definition, all the way everyone pretending like the fact that its just two people using different definitions isn't hilariously obvious.

EmilyCat doesn't want cheeseburgers in her hamburger bathroom.
SuburbanTurkey is saying there are no cheeseburgers in her bathroom, just hamburgers with cheese. It's the hamburger bathroom, the hamburgers have every right to be there, cheese or no cheese.

And we never get beyond that.

And I'm just in the corner "Can you all stop so one of the stalls will open up? I really got to pee."
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:05 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
EmilyCat doesn't want cheeseburgers in her bathroom.
SurbanTurkey is saying there are no cheeseburgers in her bathroom, just hamburgers with cheese.

And we never get beyond that.
This isn't an adequate summary of the discussion to date. Both EC & ST have stated the values and goals they intend to further with their preferred policies, e.g. safety, inclusion, etc.

It's not just a semantic debate, and we all know this. It's a debate about whose values and which stakeholders take precedence over others in a (nearly) zero sum policy game.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:08 AM   #358
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EmilyCat doesn't want penises in the Woman's Space.
SuburbanTurkey say having a penis doesn't stop you from being a woman.

Solve for X.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:08 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58598186

Under-16s can take puberty blockers without parental consent, the Court of Appeal has ruled.

The appeal was brought by the Tavistock Trust, which runs the UK's only youth gender identity clinic.

The decision reverses a 2020 ruling that under-16s lacked capacity to give informed consent to the treatment, which delays the onset of puberty.

The original case was brought by Keira Bell, who says the clinic should have challenged her more over transitioning.
Awesome news! This will be a relief to all the trans kids who have been negatively affected by this.
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Old 17th September 2021, 09:33 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
EmilyCat doesn't want penises in the Woman's Space.
SuburbanTurkey say having a penis doesn't stop you from being a woman.

Solve for X.
It's really in the thread title, isn't it?
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